Beyond Black Belt

[Paksenarrion]

NOTE: I am not implying there's anything wrong with black belt as it stands now. To my knowledge, it's still the best item a MNK can wear in that slot. This is just a thought thread. I am also not meaning to "attack" those without one, because I know it is one of the more irritating items to acquire. I apologize if you feel I am.

So with the upcoming increase to 95, followed by the last increase to 99, let's discuss an item that's been a MNK's best friend since Rise of the Zilart: The Black Belt.

With gear scaling in methods that we would've never imagined back at 75 cap, the trusty black belt has stayed at our side. Where we've replaced every other slot, the black belt remains steadfast in the waist slot.

One could almost consider it a special type of equipment, similar to the relic, mythic, or empyrean weapons.

My fear is that an item that is as difficult to acquire as it is will become outdated within the next two level cap raises. I know there are other items out there that will make people tell me to shut my mouth, but like I said, I consider it to be a form of relic weapons or the like.

So what will happen between now and 95 and 99? Will black belt still reign supreme? Will it be left to gather dust in our mog houses?

Why not a magian trial to upgrade it?

I'm not 100% familiar with martial arts belt levels, but black belt is the highest, to my knowledge and please correct me if I'm wrong. To keep with the MNK's consistency, I think that upgrading the black belt would be better than getting a different belt.

I know I don't always come up with the best ideas, and this one's kinda lacking in details. I just think that black belt should be upgradeable, like the abjuration armor is, except without Synergy because quit trying to shoehorn Synergy into the game please.

[Cream_Soda]

Until other jobs that have a belt that even comes close to black belt, there's no reason to change it, really.

[Swords]

Agreed, I highly doubt they'll issue another belt that even comes close to the same amount of haste BB does. I mean some upgrades would be nice even if its was little boosts like +1 or +2 STR per trial or something that enhances martial arts, but I doubt there would be much they could do to improve this already kick ass belt.

[Paksenarrion]

I think I mentioned that I felt that black belt was overpowered at 75 cap and still is at 90, but this is for the event that SE thinks something should be done in the future if other jobs get close to the power of it. Was just something I pondered (And one of the many questions I kept asking friends when I was planning to return to the game, "is there anything better than black belt yet?").

[Swords]

Nope, the highest haste belt out there caps at 7%, the next best thing under the BB is still AV's belt.

[Cream_Soda]

but this is for the event that SE thinks something should be done in the future if other jobs get close to the power of it.

I don't see that happening any time soon.

15 levels later, and they're still only 1% haste over their previous belt limitation. They haven't even caught up to brown belt yet.

Unless you're also calling brown belt close to black belt @.@

[Rearden]

Wasn't there a post saying they were looking into the possibility of another quest/upgrade to Black Belt in the future? I think it's fine. It's a great piece as is and I couldn't imagine what they'd be looking into to augment what it already provides.

[Swords]

I think they mentioned something along the lines of ToM or Synergy Augments for BB and a number of other items like Salvage gear, and certain items that drop off Kings. This is SE though and vision does not always work out with them.

Oh lord, can you imagine what they would do if they made the BB augmentable, I bet the ingredients would be some absurd requirement like one of the BB items (Similar to how scraps and tatters work for Sky and Abj. gear).

[hiko]

Agreed, I highly doubt they'll issue another belt that even comes close to the same amount of haste BB does. I mean some upgrades would be nice even if its was little boosts like +1 or +2 STR per trial or something that enhances martial arts, but I doubt there would be much they could do to improve this already kick ass belt.

don't want enhance martial arts on BB+1, it's a nerf in pt with brd (total DR cap reached= you only get a storeTP- effect)

[Covenant]

Why does haste have to be touched? I don't have a BB nor know the stats so will throw out random alternative buffs.. BB plus kicks. BB plus counter. BB plus dodge. BB plus duration increase on monk's /JA. See where I'm going with this?

As an aside, in Martial Arts, Tae Kwon Do in particular. There's something called a "Dan". And usually goes from 1st Dan/BlackBelt, 2nd Dan/Instructor, 3rd~5th Dan are considered Masters, and 5th~9th Dan/ grandmasters. Traditionally, no American could receive a Dan higher than 5th Dan without first going to Korea and training/paying with the grandmasters. Generally, no American masters exist higher than 5th, though nowadays that racist behavior has been overturned.

As most "True" martial artist will tell you, you dont need ANY belt. Martial Arts in it's purest form is self-defense. To be a "master" one simply needs to master one opponent, ones environment, and one's self.

[Bumbeen]

I remember SE saying they would make it harder to acquire if it was staying the best. Considering I did 15 runs to get my egg and ended up just buying it for a ridiculous amount of gil, I would say it's more difficult now than before.

[Francisco]

I remember SE saying they would make it harder to acquire if it was staying the best. Considering I did 15 runs to get my egg and ended up just buying it for a ridiculous amount of gil, I would say it's more difficult now than before.

They didn't say this.

[AyinDygra]

They said this: (Link) (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/1129-Community-Team-Please-post-translations-of-ALL-developer-posts.?p=10538&viewfull=1#post10538) on 03-10-2011.


In the meantime, here is what was discussed regarding the Black Belt specifically:

"We currently have no plans of easing the way Black Belt is obtained. Due to the increased level cap, we believe that the ease has already been affected.

We're actually looking into items that are more powerful than Black Belt for the future, and if they were to be introduced there may be a possibility that we re-visit adjustments for Black Belt acquisition."

[Manicora]

All i want is black belt +1/2/3/4 With -10% Pdt or Occ absorbs damage, even Regen/regain while idle stats Haste @28% in full af3+2 with BB :-( Leave the haste alone give me more power.

[Gokku]

i will laugh so hard if SE ups it and pulls a dynamis style ToM and it states you have to kill x5 niddhog x5 king b and x5 aspid.

in fact thats what im betting they will do, and why? so all the monks who say its hard to get have more people willing to do the battle.

[Francisco]

I think due to limitations, they can only display 5 stats on a piece of equipment (with stuff like Acc+Atk being grouped, as well as STR, VIT, etc)... This doesn't count any set bonuses.

Currently:
1) DEF: 7
2) STR+7
3) Haste+12%
4) Subtle Blow +7
5) Physical Damage Taken -5%

Other than straight upping the stats, other ways they can improve it include adding other stats with STR and changing PDT to "damage taken". Really no need to increase the haste on it, since we're already well over the haste cap.

Example of a hypothetical improved black belt:

DEF: 12 STR+10 VIT+10
Haste +12% "Subtle Blow" +10
Damage Taken -5%

It's possible they could add more by changing the pairing of equipment attributes, but that might require revising a lot of equipment.

[Swords]

It would be possible to add new attributes if they just gave BB an Augment, even if it's through ToM. That's if that limitation exists still, I dunno.

[Cursed]

Why does haste have to be touched? I don't have a BB nor know the stats so will throw out random alternative buffs.. BB plus kicks. BB plus counter. BB plus dodge. BB plus duration increase on monk's /JA. See where I'm going with this?

As an aside, in Martial Arts, Tae Kwon Do in particular. There's something called a "Dan". And usually goes from 1st Dan/BlackBelt, 2nd Dan/Instructor, 3rd~5th Dan are considered Masters, and 5th~9th Dan/ grandmasters. Traditionally, no American could receive a Dan higher than 5th Dan without first going to Korea and training/paying with the grandmasters. Generally, no American masters exist higher than 5th, though nowadays that racist behavior has been overturned.

As most "True" martial artist will tell you, you dont need ANY belt. Martial Arts in it's purest form is self-defense. To be a "master" one simply needs to master one opponent, ones environment, and one's self.

All those 7-9 Dan "grandmasters" wouldn't last a 10 seconds vs Jon Jones or Machida.
"Belts are good for holding your pants up. that's about it" Bruce Lee.

[TRiPP]

Speaking of Bruce Lee. Why is One Inch Punch in the game so damn useless? I haven't tried it in Abyssea, but last I remembered it was horrid. So horrid that horrid would be saying nice things about it.

[Gaiben]

Speaking of Bruce Lee. Why is One Inch Punch in the game so damn useless? I haven't tried it in Abyssea, but last I remembered it was horrid. So horrid that horrid would be saying nice things about it.

Because in RL the one inch punch is a move that ignores your opponent's defense by striking through the body instead of out at it. Since in FFXI terms that just means that their raw DEF is ignored by a minor chunk and the base damage is low the result is much less effective.

[Psxpert2011]

Because in RL the one inch punch is a move that ignores your opponent's defense by striking through the body instead of out at it. Since in FFXI terms that just means that their raw DEF is ignored by a minor chunk and the base damage is low the result is much less effective.

Very interesting! Is there a modifier for One-inch-Punch?

I agree with the OP as in Black Belt should be upgradable. SE is dishing out a bunch of new ideas with less impact and currently scrapping the bottom of the barrel. What ever happen to the old areas? They're only being used for GoV and VoidWalker events. Abysea, being redesigned using color, so and so...

New Black Belt tier can be included through the classic quest system (which everyone should be used to). I agree, the quest for limit break should be harder but they aren't. Why should a upgrading an item (we worked so hard to get) be any harder? As tedious as it was to get Black Belt compared to the original method was due to the level cap. Who about forget the damn magian trials and follow a chain of classic quest and fight NPCs. Then go fight NMs and save some lives (solo). The whole point is to train on skills, techniques and strength.

I know newbies would like that kind of stuff, so of-course the idea would be cast out but think of the character of the person willing to go through it for the reward. Maybe killing 100 mobs would be too much but ask those DRKs how they got their job in the first place, this would seem "nothing". I look forward to keeping well known gear we all know and love instead of replacing them with something out of a "Cracker-Jack" box. So what if we have to go pop those same "Kings" again two or three more times, if there's no gut, there's no glory!

[Arcon]

As most "True" martial artist will tell you, you dont need ANY belt. Martial Arts in it's purest form is self-defense.

Baloney.


All those 7-9 Dan "grandmasters" wouldn't last a 10 seconds vs Jon Jones or Machida.
"Belts are good for holding your pants up. that's about it" Bruce Lee.

More baloney.

[Ahtis]

Black belt's fine as it is, offensively speaking, but I think the best idea was to set pdt to damage taken, would love it :3

[scaevola]

Nope, the highest haste belt out there caps at 7%, the next best thing under the BB is still AV's belt.

The cap for haste on gear is so low and Empyrean AF for melee has in general been itemized so well that I can't in the long term see a need for much more haste on gear than we've already got. SE bought itself a little time in Abyssea by shifting towards crit/crit damage, but eventually caps are going to have to be lifted if new gear is still to provide meaningful upgrades.

[Swords]

I kind of agree with you to a point, but eventually there are diminishing returns in the things we currently value. Just to clarify what I mean suppose they removed Haste cap from gear, you'll be able to throw out WS's perhaps 1.2 times faster but you've sacrificed all your attack/acc/str gear your DoT significantly suffers. So while you pull out 3-5k WS's a little faster your DoT may have dropped from doing 450-700 per hit to 250-300. That's just a speculation of course, because there should always be a degree of balance between stats.

As it stands, I think were at a good balance with the current caps and limitations, I think the next direction should head more in the enfeeblement department to further weaken our enemies to make our current powers excel beyond what they are now. Such as the under utilized combination of abilities and spells like box step(-13% def), Angon(-20% def), and Saboteur/Dia III(-15-19.5% def) together in order to make our WS's stand out more.

[Arcon]

Right now, we have to choose between Haste, Acc, Att, DA, TA, QA, STP, Crit Rate, Crit DMG, and god knows what and find a right balance between all of them. So if they released even more Haste gear, the choice would be made easier. If we can cap Haste in 4 slots instead of 5, it will allow you to boost one or more of the other stats in that freed up slot. So unless they start tossing out gear with > 25% Haste on a single piece, there will be no reason to raise the Haste cap, and it will still benefit people gravely.

And just for the record, if they did, it would still be best to cap Haste over anything and everything else, even more so than it is now. Haste becomes increasingly more useful the higher the value goes, so unless you have a BRD and WHM constantly with you, with whom to cap your overall Haste, Haste will never go out of style (unless it has Skill -500 attached to it somehow, or something equally absurd).

[scaevola]

Right now, we have to choose between Haste, Acc, Att, DA, TA, QA, STP, Crit Rate, Crit DMG, and god knows what and find a right balance between all of them. So if they released even more Haste gear, the choice would be made easier. If we can cap Haste in 4 slots instead of 5, it will allow you to boost one or more of the other stats in that freed up slot. So unless they start tossing out gear with > 25% Haste on a single piece, there will be no reason to raise the Haste cap, and it will still benefit people gravely.


Maybe, but in order to start dropping pieces in a world where even Twilight Belt monks can cap with 5 easy-to-get Haste pieces (or even 4 with Zelus) means 3-4% jumps on multiple pieces of gear. We really aren't that far off from a point when BB's 12% Haste is overkill, if it isn't already; would the game really be more interesting if SE made capping Haste that much simpler?

Personally, I'd rather see a direction where capping Haste is a meaningful decision for which you give things up. Like, I'd prefer to see a belt with 4% Haste that had some really weird and cool proc attached than another BB with 15% haste this time around, you know? Ganesha's Mask is a step in the right direction: it's a cool, unique item that is potentially really good but makes it way harder to cap Haste if you use it.

[Greatguardian]

I kind of agree with you to a point, but eventually there are diminishing returns in the things we currently value. Just to clarify what I mean suppose they removed Haste cap from gear, you'll be able to throw out WS's perhaps 1.2 times faster but you've sacrificed all your attack/acc/str gear your DoT significantly suffers. So while you pull out 3-5k WS's a little faster your DoT may have dropped from doing 450-700 per hit to 250-300. That's just a speculation of course, because there should always be a degree of balance between stats.

As it stands, I think were at a good balance with the current caps and limitations, I think the next direction should head more in the enfeeblement department to further weaken our enemies to make our current powers excel beyond what they are now. Such as the under utilized combination of abilities and spells like box step(-13% def), Angon(-20% def), and Saboteur/Dia III(-15-19.5% def) together in order to make our WS's stand out more.

You clearly have no understanding whatsoever how Haste works. Going from 80% Haste to 90% Haste is a 100% increase in TP and WS damage.

The whole "Hit faster but weaker" vs "Hit slower but stronger" argument has always been 110% hogwash.

[Swords]

Yeah you missed speculation at the end of the paragraph, currently even if they raised the gear haste cap there's only a handful of jobs that could really push it past 30% via gear. Even with haste scaling becoming greater at higher levels min/maxing for 2-3% might do more harm than good at lower levels, such as losing out on the STR, Subtle Blow, Set bonus, and Perfect counter dmg bonus from Tantra Crown +2 in trade for -5 Eva and +1% more haste on Zelus Tiara.

If for whatever reason you were a mere few points away from the overall haste cap, you would receive no argument from me that min/maxing 2-3% wouldn't be worthwhile because at 70% overall haste it would have 2-5 times more effect on attack speed rather than a slight improvement at 20% overall haste.

In any case, those restrictions are still there and we have other means for getting haste from spells, JA's, etc that can put any melee at or pretty damn close to the overall haste cap. Frankly I'm almost jealous of 2h wielders because Hasso can put them at the 80% with capped gear haste, Embrava, Haste/March.

[Concerned4FFxi]

yes i would like to see it upgraded, perhaps it could be called the grand master's blackbelt or blackbelt # degree. I'd be fine with it being another hard quest to obtain the upgrade and of course one would need an orginal bb to get the new bb. Maybe the new quest could be challenging but not quite as hard as it is now to get bb drops.

[Bloodkraft]

I some martial arts there is a Red belt after black, mostly used for grandmasters and only 1 person may hold it.

Most likely it will be a lvl 99 belt in the future.

[Arcon]

I some martial arts there is a Red belt after black, mostly used for grandmasters and only 1 person may hold it.

Most likely it will be a lvl 99 belt in the future.

Kinda would be fun if only one person could hold it ingame too.

[Alderin]

Can't fix what isn't broken. BB is and probably will always be superior.

STR+7 nearly made me decide not to bother with a Beir belt. (Beir has the highest STR in a belt).
Haste +12% - nothing comes close.
Subtle Blow +5 - although not game breaking, still helps.
PDT-5% - There is very little gear that offers both Haste & PDT-. None in a waist slot.

Nothing will be better - nor does this need to be any better. In regards to the OP - yes it essentially is a relic piece for MNK.

[Gokku]

i wouldnt mind the 99 version being

10str
15 haste
10 sub
5-8% DT

and the quest from moogles requires 25 items that are rare/ex and stack and drop low % off KB NID and aspid...

the belt would be nigh impossable to get and broken as hell if you do have it.

[firelurker456]

Black belt needs a hidden ability to increase guard rate.... that would be the best.

[FrankReynolds]

Edit : Ha! Posted in the wrong thread.

[Monchat]

Can't fix what isn't broken. BB is and probably will always be superior.

STR+7 nearly made me decide not to bother with a Beir belt. (Beir has the highest STR in a belt).


Beir belt also has -DEX, which makes it bad outside abyssea. One day people will realize beir belt +1, heafoc mitts, calmecac and similar items that only improve max damage and not consistency of hits, reduce their damage instead of improving it, when you don't have cruor buffs ( on anything ~7+ level above you). I feel already bad with my -30 accuracy on ws ( i.e 30 less accuracy than the TP set), and at -50 with those items its just bad. So for the belt slot for me its either black belt ( trash mobs) or anguinus belt (VT+).

[Concerned4FFxi]

I like the idea presented as the grand master's red belt, however one person per server to possess it would be a little unfair, what if once a month there's a tournament held in pvp or something, and the winner gets their blackbelt augmented to red belt for that month only and it resets every month. Hell, i'd even go just to watch the tournament. Could even award the belt to the top 5 per server, it could be a five day affair like the holiday events, once every three months instead of once a month and for five days there's a winner per day that gets the temporary upgraded black belt for the next 3 months until the next tournament. To enter you would have to have mnk 75+ with bb equipped.

On a side note, I wouldn't be opposed to bb or apoc (drk relic weapon) being the only two items in game that break the current haste cap, similiar to pld mythic weapon or pld relic shield exceeding their respective caps.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Merge them all into a rainbow belt!

[Reiterpallasch]

Kinda would be fun if only one person could hold it ingame too.
Oh god, please no. Not because I think extremely rare items are bad though. That's fine.

It's because I can already see the guy who gets it now:
Ohat, aurore body/hands/legs, dune boots, /DNC, and a Blacker Belt™

[Ophannus]

I wish SE would make black belt-like items for ALL jobs that are quested. MNK has belt quests, SMN has Evoker Ring quest, BLM WHM have scroll quests. Would be nice if other jobs had special quests good stuff too.

[Cowardlybabooon]

Black belt was kinda like a level 99 item that we were allowed to wear at level 75. It basically gives you permission to wear armor that doesn't focus on haste and lets you boost your other stats in your other armor slots. It would actually be kinda annoying if they came out with something better like "Double Attack +20" that forced us to cap our haste using feet and hand slots. But I suppose I could live with it :-)

[Seaaloe]

I'm all for an upgrade. Should be Judan Belt since that's the highest level you can obtain in martial arts. While they're at it, why not also make a set of Bushin armor since that's the highest status you can obtain as a Monk according to this game!!

[Furlow]

Just for sake putting my own 2 cents into this. If they did do a Update for B.belt, I think they should just take the Physical Damage taken and make it into straigh Damage taken %... Maybe upp STR to 10, damage taken -10% and subtle Blow +10 and defense 10. Leave the haste where it is. That's not realy a insane buffing for a upgrade, but would maintain it as the best belt in game.

[Francisco]

Just for sake putting my own 2 cents into this. If they did do a Update for B.belt, I think they should just take the Physical Damage taken and make it into straigh Damage taken %... Maybe upp STR to 10, damage taken -10% and subtle Blow +10 and defense 10. Leave the haste where it is. That's not realy a insane buffing for a upgrade, but would maintain it as the best belt in game.

PDT-7% going to DT-10% IS an insane upgrade. But I wouldn't be against it.

Monk is pretty lucky with -MDT gear, if they bother to get it, even if you throw out the notion of getting a Defending Ring.

Tantra+2|Twilight|Brutal|Merman's
Avalon|Denali|6%Dark|Shadow
Mollusca|BlackBelt|Tantra+2|Tantra+2

...allows you to TP in your -MDT set while maintaining 25% haste and capped MDT with Shellra V up with Shadow Ring occasionally zeroing out damage.

Making Black Belt -10% DT would allow you to hit -35% MDT with the same setup as above. Possible to go higher via some minor changes like a second Merman's Earring...

With Shellra V up, that -10% DT would be excess (for magical purposes), so you could shed some -DT/MDT elsewhere.

Tantra+2|Twilight|Brutal|Merman's
Tantra+2|Denali|6%Dark|Shadow
Atheling|BlackBelt|Tantra+2|Tantra+2

Would be one option.

Tantra+2|Twilight|Brutal|Moonshade
Avalon|Tantra+2|Epona|Shadow
Mollusca|BlackBelt|Tantra+2|Tantra+2

Would be another. Honestly not sure which would come out better for DD purposes though.