[dev1019] When was the last REAL thf update?

[Capn]

The last boost that thf got, was around 2005/6 when we obtained the Assassin job trait. Let that sink in for a bit before you say I'm wrong...

Yes, we've received a number of boosting abilities, some rather important ones. Feint, Aura Steal, Critical Attack bonus being the second nicest, since Assassin...

Is it working as intended that thf has no discerning abilites to seperate itself from other jobs in the game aside from Treasure Hunter?

TH is the last thing in the game thf is needed for. Everything else is dead content.

-Picking locks on coffers and a VERY limited amount of doors.
-Stealing items from monsters, oh wait, that shares a 5 minute timer with aura steal and despoil... 3 abilities, one timer.
-Accomplice and Collaborator are nice sometimes, if they were on seperate timers and 30 seconds and 3 minutes... (also nobody uses hate control SE, stop with the useless hate control abilites...).
-Hide.... doesn't work on anything anymore (how many "track by sight" monsters do you find yourself running away from.... ever...)
-Mug, hell yes 12 gil every 15 minutes! oh wait, abyssea mobs don't have gil.... neither do non abyssea new NMs...

That leaves us with our only 2 JAs that are useful in our entire JA list... Sneak Attack and Trick Attack (and 1 JT Triple attack...). If it wasn't for the fact that the monster we fight spins around and around, making sneak attack frustrating as HELL to land... and Trick Attack being the last useful ability we have that is consistent (when you're not solo...)

Solo thf loses Trick Attack/Conspirator(sans AF3)/Sneak Attack/lolAmbush
So then we're left with.... Feint? TH?

It's really sad that thf has no niche in the game at all. (aside from TH) ...

A+ Evasion, nin gets more (helloooooo Yonnin)
DoT is decent, mnk gets more
Used to be... crit kings... dnc gets more (go go 5/5 Crit Dancing Edge outside of abyssea......)

Ever since Assassin was added:

TP Floor was removed so nin wouldn't gain TP so fast... thf/nin was effected
Distance was added to ranged acc and atk... status bolt thfs were effected
More jobs gain access to DW! Thf gets DW1 at 83..............................


It's just disheartening to see a job that I've played since 2004 and waiting like a stalkholm syndrome abductee... waiting for the day that we get an ability that lets sneak attack work from any angle, or trick attack work in conjunction with another JA like "Shadow" that acts as the person we're standing behind... Or 2 stances where 1 increases crit hit damage/rate, but reduces evasion, and the other increases evasion, but reduces crit hit damage/rate... or triple attack... or SOMETHING that deals damage.


Please! SE...

NO more shared timers with steal
NO more shared timers PERIOD
PLEASE give our outdated JAs that nobody uses anymore a facelift... like mug, or hide, even flee giving some form of +Triple attack% would be nice... JT desperate strikes, when under the effect of flee triple attack% increases (10-15%)?

SOMETHING...

Dnc getting Sneak Attack +1 is the straw that broke the camels back for this job... I continue to play it because I don't have ninja or pld leveled for mass pulling... and some people still think TH makes a difference... But today, I've lost yet another level of love and luster for the job

[Alukat]

well th makes a difference.
and i totally agree with u at all the other points.

[Alukat]

here's an idea that makes sneak attack usable again.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11001-new-job-trait-or-equipment-piece-to-augment-TA?p=143818#post143818

[Laphine]

although i agree with some of your points, climactic flourish can't crit all hits on DE. Just the first one, like sa/ta. Still, they could in theory combo 5 DEs and crit the first hit on all of them. This is impossible though, due tp gain constraints. I also don't think the boost to the single crit hit with AF3+2 is ever better than the boost SA gives us. I imagine it could be better than TA tho (we hardly increase agi when wsing). Still, they can use the JA every 1.5 min with no limitation at all...and they can probably combo two criting rudras for some more epeen SC....

On the TH thing, i was going to post this at the other thread as reply to some things Insaniac said. I'll post it here to centralize things.

Yes, i agree TH does make a difference when ppl think on what jobs to bring to an event. Like Insaniac said "I have never once heard anyone say OMG WE NEED A DNC!!". But really, just because we have TH doesn't mean the job is working 100% and we should have no overhauling updates. And also, for me, being required only as TH is not fun game play. I wanna have fun! Thf is job i like the most, why can't i have fun as thf?!

We can read fun as damage there. This was always the reality of the game. Hardly anyone liked being a healer, hardly anyone liked being a support only job, hardly anyone liked being the th whore. These jobs were always required to make things work tho, and so ppl leveled them. When asked to be one of them some people would even whine about it. It's understandable, what most players really like/want is seeing f***ing big numbers on the screen!

edit: oh yeah, from what i've been noticing these days, if a person doesn't have thf job, he will just shout for yellow procers and be done with it. It might be that he asks for a tank. Luckily enough, thf fits this. Except i've never seen a shout "tank(can i have it?)", just (ninja) (monk) (can i have it?). If i'm interested i'll just say "i'll tank for you on thief", and then they say "OK". Yeah..lol. But yeah, TH is hardly a requirement on ppls minds anymore.

[Karbuncle]

TH is hardly a requirement on ppls mind

i read what you wrote, and i agree with it.

In fact i just had a rant in the Collab/Accomp range thread a moment ago. I'm fed up with people telling THF "You have TH don't complain". Its the epitome of ignorance and if they'd even look around they could tell TH is even slowly being phased out, hell until just july 11th TH wasn't useful at all for voidwatch. now it gives a small boost to lights.

THF as a job is just kept as a Mediocre job. It is probably on the bottom of the list of "useful" as jobs like SMN. The only reason THF even gets a second though is Treasure Hunter, which more and more people care less about these days.

And if we face reality, TH isn't even that amazing. Random drops are random so to speak. You have GuyA go 1/1 with no TH, then THF-B with TH9+ on the mob and going 0/20. The job trait as a whole is so cynically useless sometimes it almost feels like an elaborate troll by SE.

I don't want to continue to big a rant, if you wanna know the rest find the Collab/accomp thread -.-

[Capn]

Clearly they just want people to stop playing THF.

Or they really think THF's role in FFXI is good as is. I mean, Who doesn't love being a TH Whore, and only a TH whore? inside Abyssea sure, we can tank, but what job cant?. Fking WHM can tank in Abyssea.

inside Abyssea we can DD, but again see above, what job cant?

Point is back in the real world Thief is a terrible job and its only use is TH, and I'm tired of that stupid useless crutch being used as an excuse to keep us mediocre. Treasure hunter is nice, yay, But its not so nice THF needs to remain a useless sack of sh*t in every other department.

Give us something that makes it worth the time to melee? I dont want more Enmity control abilities, it won't help the job, Christ give them to PLD so at least they can be useless on a job that might get use of them. (Really, Would anyone complain if they renamed Coll/Acomp and gave it to PLD instead of THF, and instead gave us some great DD Abilities?)

I'm kinda fed up on all sides of the discussion. Idiots throwing around "You have TH" like its a viable excuse to make the job sucks, and SE being either too stupid, too blind, or just to scared to give THF Anything worthwhile to make it a more useful DD (while they pile on DNC's buffs).

I have to mirror Eeeks here, at this point they may as well just give DNC TH and delete THF as a job, We're completely useless outside of Treasure Hunter, and they actually added mobs that TH didn't effect at all (until just recently where TH 'help's your light level). If that pattern continues even TH will become worthless.


Ugh, Sorry for the Mini rant -.-. I'm sure no one wanted to read it. I don't like being upset :(, THF is my favorite job and I'm quite compassionate about it. I always considered (wrongly it seems) THF to be the best Critical hit job... what with SA, TA, and naturally high DEX... then MNK gets JA like Impetus, and WAR gets Blood Rage, it just seems like the strong get stronger and THF remains as mediocre as it has been since day one.



This... a million times this...

I too refer to it as Placebo Hunter...


I dare anyone to tell me which on average will yield more seals in abyssea...

yellow (!!) or TH

....... Answer?

TH - Rare 0 -> average 1-2
Yellow (!!) - Rare 1 -> average 3-4


Soooooo you wanted a thf or a yellow proc'r in abyssea with you again?

Treasure Hunter has one foot in the grave, and when it dies, so will the last reasons thf's should "quit complaining" about...

[Alukat]

triple attack II (10% TA rate)
something samilliar to fencer but that works with dual wield.
SA / TA recast time reduction.
JT that transfers x% of the thf's enmity to the TA'd party member.
higher crit dmg boost (~10-15%) by job triat.
offhand weapon with th+2, with good dmg at 90, triple attack rate+.

[Laphine]

As long as that weapon completely nullifies the thief's knife bonus lol. Otherwise we will just have to main hand that and offhand TK lol.

[Alukat]

As long as that weapon completely nullifies the thief's knife bonus lol. Otherwise we will just have to main hand that and offhand TK lol.

yep or thf's knife upgradeable via magian trial ^^

[Karbuncle]

JT that transfers x% of the thf's enmity to the TA'd party member.

I liked this better when you recommended it as a piece of Equipment. I still stand this would be an unintended nerf for a THF in a low-man Tanking situation.

I agree with most other points, aside from a TH+ knife. Don't want another one of those >___>, just let us upgrade Thief's Knife to not suck D:

[Catsby]

In my opinion the best things that could be done to thief aren't to the job. A few adjustments here and there yes but as a whole you can't really ask for more. Thf has decent damage output, insane evasion, gear options out the ass and the benefit of (allegedly) increasing drops on monsters.

If I were to enhance thf it would be more to "treasure" chests/coffers and steal/loot pools on monsters. Believe it or not there were times when you would actually carry around tools to crack open chests because you were almost guaranteed to walk away with something nice. You could also make a ton of money stealing coins from beastmen if you were persistent enough.

Of course thf's hate abilities are kinda F'd but that's hardly thf's fault and the enmity system as a whole right now.

[Karbuncle]

Thf has decent damage output, insane evasion, gear options out the ass

I see your opinion, I agree in some ways, But i disagree in a few as well.

I don't think our DMG output is "decent". When it comes to Melee, Most people don't even consider THF a Melee DD, we are a TH-whore. Our "DD" Capabilities generally fall behind even SMN on anything worth a spit (Read: Non-abyssean HNM-level Content, Like VWNM). Inside Abyssea we do okay, Its outside is what I'm worried about.

On Our Evasion... It is rather pointless on HNM/Endgame content too as its unlikely we're tanking unless everyone else died, what with having the DD output and Hate-holding Abilities of a level 3 DRK. If we are tanking by some miracle, It probably wont last long as most new NMs/mobs have strong TP moves that either Ignore shadows or strip them quickly, and their Acc is too powerful to tank reliably, and our DD output would hardly let us keep hate.

I just want some sort of buffs to our Alliance participation. TH is nice, Coll/accomp are rather okay, in a very limited situational sort of way, I just want more reasons for us to be invited outside of Treasure Hunter, because thats all THF is good for on any real content (Read: Nothing Abyssea).

Inside Abyssea we're fine, But content is not staying there and its apparent once we step back into HNM level content THF is absolutely trash, and the only reason we're invited is for Treasure Hunter.

I know I'm talking in circles, but giving us an improvement to lock picking would be as useless as giving PUP an Attachment that made that let the Automaton have access to more /emotes. While fun, and neat, It wouldn't fix anything on the job and i would still be upset.

Don't get me wrong at all, I'd gladly take a Lock-picking "boost" if it came in the same update as our big DD potential/usefulness boost. Because lock picking fits the role of a THF, i Simply don't want our job to be a bucket of worthless Gimmicks.

I.E Treasure Hunter, Worthless Steal pools, 15 minute "30 gil" mug, Lock Picking, etc.

I'd take improvements to the above, I just would really like them to "Address the issue where in Thief is completely worthless in any realistic HNM Scenario outside of the Placebo Hunter effect"

[Insaniac]

143901On the TH thing, i was going to post this at the other thread as reply to some things Insaniac said. I'll post it here to centralize things.

Yes, i agree TH does make a difference when ppl think on what jobs to bring to an event. Like Insaniac said "I have never once heard anyone say OMG WE NEED A DNC!!". But really, just because we have TH doesn't mean the job is working 100% and we should have no overhauling updates. And also, for me, being required only as TH is not fun game play. I wanna have fun! Thf is job i like the most, why can't i have fun as thf?!I just wanted to clarify That I completely agree with these posts. I wasn't suggesting that DNC deserved the buffs they got I was just giving, imo, the reason they have been getting buffs and THFs haven't

SE views any job that gets party invites as "not in need of improvement."

If you look at the new rage thread I started after seeing what they actually have planned for us you can see how much I agree lol.

[Alaik]

I personally wish they would just give DNC a TH one tier higher than our's. I doubt SE actually hates any job outright, so it's gotta be all they see is, "Well, every HNM alliance has had a THF in it for the last 8 years, THF must be fine!"

The moment we're not the TH specialists anymore, maybe we'll actually get something useful, be it DD or hate management or whatever.

On a more amusing note, a friend just quit FFXI after grinding up to 90. He wanted to be a THF. Before he started playing he asked me about all the jobs.
"Well, what about Thief?"
"Depends, do you want the real answer or what the manual says?"
"Manual, no offense but half the time in MMOs the 'real' view is BS."
"K, you're a hate specialist. You're supposed to direct the flow of battle by controlling enmity, delivering large criticals and ensuring the monster gets to your camp safely."

Fast forward 3 weeks.

"FFXI? Fuck that game. I wanted to play a Thief but all I was wanted for in big events was Treasure Hunter. Enmity management my ass. Why is enmity even an issue if a Thief is in the party? That's our job I thought. To let everyone else say f*** enmity."

"So how's that manual working out for you?"

Not that it'll change anything, THF is only going to get useless steal and TH crap forever and always, but I had a good laugh at him after his saying, "Oh well the dev's ideas are always right." Silly man, maybe for most companies, but not SE.

[Nebo]

•Adding an ability that allows for a triple attack.


Well, they plan to give them assassin's charge. Maybe they will give them TH and call it a day.

[user201108211515]

How about other jobs get crappy equip they have to wear at all times... Then they can have an idea of how bad it sucks to be thf now.

Its worse now then ever really.. Thanks to a visual proc for all to see.. It use to be.. have all TH gear on.. hit the mob once.. swap gears for DD thf mode...

DD thf is dead. Untill th12 is proced no one wants or cares to hear about how much damage you can do.

As stated many times over.. If thf didnt have TH.. pups would be sayn lolthf...

thf either needs timers for sa/ta reduced to 30 sec or we need more gurantted crit hit moves.

Money shot(lol) range crit hit much like bounty shot.

A crit hit based on current hate.

Enfeebling crit hits.. weaker then rdms of course

have to have hate, face to face with the mob, no one in the way

throat stab- crit hit+ silence
eye stab- crit hit+ blind
arm stab- crit hit+ amnseia
leg stab- crit hit+ gravity

could make more Im sure but need at least 4, shared timer @ 30 sec perhapse.

[Karbuncle]

I'm personally against anything that is restricted by Direction or Enemy hate. Because it would only benefit you inside Abyssea or when Solo or low man tanking, and with Abyssea ending, and real difficult content becoming more common, THF won't be a tank, nor something with high hate.

I like the general idea of Inflicting Ailments, However maybe tie them to Despoil? Reduce Despoil to ~1min, Have it inflict damage and debuff an enemy...

THF needs a lot of attention, But i doubt we'll see any. We may as well just settle in our lovely little role of being crap. Heck, even TH is pretty much pointless. TH2, TH12, Anyone wanna tell me the difference? Nope? no one knows? exactly... giant placebo.

[user201108211515]

the difference from just th7 to th 9 in dyna NMs is huge...

been thf for well over 6 years now.. the job was fun to play.. now i wish I could d-lv it and never play it again..

But really.. every job should have bad gear they have to wear to be wanted in PT/Alli situations... Seems only fair...

[Karbuncle]

the difference from just th7 to th 9 in dyna NMs is huge...

I'm not trying to pick this apart, but pretty much all current data says the opposite (or are you being sarcastic?). Can i ask you to provide some small evidence? I don't ask for a large sample size but simply something. Because I have never seen any discernible Difference. Every single Dynamis NM i've gotten a 100 from has had TH6 or 7.

I do not deny your claims, if anything they would make me happy.


been thf for well over 6 years now.. the job was fun to play.. now i wish I could d-lv it and never play it again..

I still love the job, I've been playing it since NA release, But i am sad its become so lackluster.


But really.. every job should have bad gear they have to wear to be wanted in PT/Alli situations... Seems only fair...

I wish they'd just give us a Trial to upgrade Thief's Knife so its not such a giant hinder to our DPS when farming things in mass (I.E situations where removing it will only hurt you, because you're fighting so many enemies, Like Dynamis, or Limbus, or something similar)

Have hope for the future, But expect the worst. thats all i can say ;\

[Vold]

I can't deny it. My THF has basically been a farming tool for 6 years. Kind of ticks you off when you look at the other jobs getting shit that's useful left and right and it's like they just can't think of a damn thing for THF or they're content with THF being ensured a spot because of TH and consider it more important to boost unpopular jobs with offense in mind. I don't feel they will ever give THF the royal treatment so I just accept it and that's all I have to say on the matter. However....


Heck, even TH is pretty much pointless. TH2, TH12, Anyone wanna tell me the difference? Nope? no one knows? exactly... giant placebo.The more time I spend in sky the more I believe THIII and beyond really ups the drop rate on crappy drops. But I'm rolling with two characters these days so I don't expect anyone else to have as much experience as I do on my THF hunting stuff that can technically kill me without a healer duo. I also don't have a weak attention span so I can literally spend 8 hours in Sky and not even blink while other people would have logged long ago out of boredom.

Right now my belief is that with TH7+ you can expect to not have a big difference with common drops(which is what any TH testing data has been on so far) but it will increase rarer drops vastly. Now, I'm going to go ahead and respond to the inevitable mention of modern day end game stuff like voidwatch and Dynamis currency w/o proc drops, if SE wants us to slave over content then we are going to slave over it. They need this stuff to last who knows how long before real expansion content comes around again. I would not put it past them to have coded this stuff so that there's like a 0% drop rate to force people to do TE farming for Dynamis and all that bloody work in voidwatch. The key to seeing the TH differences is in older content. Does it really matter since it's working like crap on newer content? Nope! Unless you're doing what I am, making gil off of god scraps and abj tatters which requires some pop item farming, which BTW I am seeing quite a lot of item drops per God kill, too. Like v claws and behemoth hides. It's quite often. Did anyone know Byakko can drop 2 hides? Or 2 hides now? I didn't, but he does apparently since I saw it last week.

Tonight so far: 35 Aura statue kills: 3 raxa, 1 diorite. This is with the intent of getting procs which means no speed killing, only melee hits with SATA as much as possible. In comparison, two nights ago I did this farming with speed kills. 1 raxa, no diorite after 30 kills at which point I got tired and went to bed. I started way too late on it. Now, this has been my experience more or less since 90 came around. And I expect it to continue until proven otherwise with a 0-100 diorite trip like years past. But honestly I look at the raxa drops more than I do the diorite as evidence that TH7+ is working well for older content. I just wish it'd proc more often. Most kills I'm getting is 0-1 procs, sometimes 2.



As far as the THIII trait goes, I am undecided if it is making a difference in Sky or if it's the TH6 in gear and beyond with procs. Frankly, I don't care so long as my TH3 + 3 in gear and procs are getting what I want done, done. But I have not seen drop increases with TW farming targets like orcs for gold orcmasks, for example. I don't get procs with those so I expect the THIII trait alone isn't worth jackshit but there's much testing to go before I can make a call with that. Masks always were a very big hit or miss for me in the past. Sometimes they never drop and sometimes they drop like frickin' candy.

I have been incredibly lazy about trying to proc on Dynamis NMs due to time constraints but I will up my game on that and see the outcome. I've just about given up farming them because it seems like a giant waste of time that could have been spent getting another 20-30 singles from trash in a different camp. But I also typically speed kill Dynamis as I proc them then SA RS to kill. I stand to lose quite a bit of drops by taking my time on NMs for procs but I suppose if it gets some 100s more often than not it might be worth it...

[noodles355]

Used to be... crit kings... dnc gets more (go go 5/5 Crit Dancing Edge outside of abyssea......)

Dnc getting Sneak Attack +1 is the straw that broke the camels back for this job...Does a 5/5 finishign move climactic flourish give a garanteed (assuming no misses) 5 crit hits on a WS...?

[Insaniac]

No. Only the first hit will crit and it will use 1 of your 5 crits. If you could do 5 WS in a row without landing a melee hit between they would all crit on the first hit.

[Insaniac]

Too long to quoteI gotta say I feel the exact opposite. I noticed no change in drop rates since TH3 was added. It's what drove me to start the TH testing in the first place. As I've said before even if TH3 does only kick in on low drop rate items.. with the current path of end game it does almost nothing. TH is worthless in voidwatch, einherjar, BCNMs, and WoE. Based on your theory, in abyssea TH3 would be worthless assuming you have procs which you hopefully do so as not to waste your time. Nothing in abyssea has a low drop rate with procs.

As for byakko and 2 B hides, yeah that happened to me a few times before TH3 existed. Most of what I have killed in sky recently has been suzakus and not a single one has dropped shining cloth and almost all of them have been single drop abj. Believe me, I have been looking for evidence of TH3+ actually doing something but I just don't see it.

[noodles355]

No. Only the first hit will crit and it will use 1 of your 5 crits. If you could do 5 WS in a row without landing a melee hit between they would all crit on the first hit.Oh good, so the "crit king" with "5/5 crit DE" was rubbish, and flourish isn't Sneak Attack+1 as it only makes it a normal criritical hit (+20% dmg with +2 hat?) vs SA and TA's AGi and DEX boosts.

[Karbuncle]

I gotta say I feel the exact opposite. I noticed no change in drop rates since TH3 was added. It's what drove me to start the TH testing in the first place. As I've said before even if TH3 does only kick in on low drop rate items.. with the current path of end game it does almost nothing. TH is worthless in voidwatch, einherjar, BCNMs, and WoE. Based on your theory, in abyssea TH3 would be worthless assuming you have procs which you hopefully do so as not to waste your time. Nothing in abyssea has a low drop rate with procs.

As for byakko and 2 B hides, yeah that happened to me a few times before TH3 existed. Most of what I have killed in sky recently has been suzakus and not a single one has dropped shining cloth and almost all of them have been single drop abj. Believe me, I have been looking for evidence of TH3+ actually doing something but I just don't see it.

I've been doing salvage lately and i share this sentiment. My brother during salvage goes DRK/THF (hes a E-peen number guy, SA > Torcleaver... don't ask), and I've seen more Double/Triple Alex drops from Gears he touched and i didn't (I.E only TH2, compared to my TH6+). This is of course nothing but small sample sizes and mere eyeballing.

But I've also killed Stupid No-Drop Turtle a good dozens times with TH9+ on every kill and still no Usukane item. (yes, Im aware this is also a small sample size).

IF you want to test the theory of "TH3+ effects Low Drop rates", I'd say head to salvage, its king of Low drop rates, i think after about a month or two you'll probably be as sure as we are :|

[user201108211515]

"I'm not trying to pick this apart, but pretty much all current data says the opposite (or are you being sarcastic?). Can i ask you to provide some small evidence? I don't ask for a large sample size but simply something. Because I have never seen any discernible Difference. Every single Dynamis NM i've gotten a 100 from has had TH6 or 7."

Um well. Since I'm the only melee on the NM 1st proc is @ 7 and by the time it dies it is @ 9-10. Usually get at least 1 100 peice a night and 2 a night is every other day some times.

Turned out 267 @ bastok lastnight... Really not sure why currency is so high but w/e.. that is another topic entirely...

[Karbuncle]

Um well. Since I'm the only melee on the NM 1st proc is @ 7 and by the time it dies it is @ 9-10. Usually get at least 1 100 peice a night and 2 a night is every other day some times.

Turned out 267 @ bastok lastnight... Really not sure why currency is so high but w/e.. that is another topic entirely...

I don't mean to pry, But could you provide any sort of proof that you average 1-2 100 Pieces a run? Because I do dynamis very often (Xarc mostly) and Even killing ~5 NMs a night I'd be lucky to see a 100 more than once per 4 runs, all with TH8/9+ (I'm always on THF, i have base TH6, and i do try every fight to upgrade it as much as possible).

My best run in Dynamis was about 376 Coins with 5 people, and that was because we got lucky on a 100 piece from a NM, but 100's are quite rare for us.

I could see it being different for City zones... Or you camp/kill NMs a lot more often, however even back when i did Jeuno and would kill ~10~15NMs a night I'd be lucky to see a single 100...