DRK is good enough already...

[Masema]

It doesn't need any improvements. The only thing I think should be fixed is absorb spells not stacking with cruor buffs. Please tell me what this job is lacking

[Jar]

An intelligent player base?

[Urteil]

An intelligent player base?

Says the guy who doesn't realize he has an MP pool.

[Masema]

I'm just saying, DRK is still the best ZERG job there is. Fully buffed it can reach the 80% delay reduction cap. If you don't have a Caladbolg, get one that thing is sex. Last Resort+Souleater+SA+Tocleaver for 8k and Lv. 3 aftermath. {Blood Weapon} {Good Night}

Not only that /mnk is my new favorite thing when it comes to fighting reg mobs or lower tier NMs. RR GH MC. Throw up dread spikes and you can kill exp mobs faster than any other job(without rubying) and never need healing.

[Urteil]

ZERGing needs to stay in 2009.

Being defined by 1 minute of game-play is fundamentally, and mechanically retarded.

[Masema]

Have you ever been to Abyssea? Thats all that place is. Stagger>Kill

[Zatias]

There is a reason the term "loldrk" has existed and still does exist. The answer is in this thread, hidden in plain sight.

[Urteil]

It seems pretty obvious to me.

[Zatias]

A bit back on topic, what's wrong with the job is we got Tactical Parry.

[Masema]

It's better than not having Tactical Parry.. lol

[Zatias]

Maybe but is also saying "YOU SHOULD PULL HAAET SO YOU CAN GET TAHT EXTRA TPZ", or that we should be soloing.

Really though, it was a joke XP

[Urteil]

I'd rather them delete Tactical Parry, tired of it looking all smug and happy in my JT window.

[StingRay104]

considering the fact until recently with the last resort update we've been struggling to keep up with other dd's I'd say there is a problem. Since the update tho things have worked out much better for us but the point on this matter is this, DRK is supposed to be able to hit the top tier of damage and exceed other jobs when going all out and often killing themselves in the process. The real point is this, a really well built drk can be out performed by a gimp war and a decent war can outperform a decked out drk, so if you ask me there is a serious imbalance issue that needs to be resolved. The last resort update was a groundbreaking introduction into bringing drk back to the world it belongs and the souleater update was also very helpful but our biggest problems still lie in 2 areas. First we got all this mp and not much to do with it, second we got a nice update to souleater and guillotine is our only decent ws to use with it. There you have the 2 most important issues, the first can be fixed by adding more absorb spells and removing lame decay and making them stack with cruor buffs like everyother stat related buff, and the other well its less simple but I like the idea of making souleater do 10 x damage multiplier for % hp damage/consumed, it would make for some epic torcleavers. If we can solve these 2 issues then I'd agree with your post OP, but until then Imma have to disagree.

[JovialRat]

/mnk does what exactly?

[Rafien]

Give DRK the spell Doom.. The end.

[Masema]

I don't have any trouble competing with other DD's though. With Souleater and Last Resort up I out-parse everyone in alliance, including WAR with Ukon, in damage from melee swings alone, and I finish with overall dmg about equal to WAR with Ukon.

Yes, DRK has a lot of useless magic, what else is new? lol I did say i would like to see the issue with Absorb spells not stacking with cruor buffs resolved.

And not any good weaponskills? Guillotine is a decent weaponskill. Will it get numbers as high as Raging Rush inside abyssea? No. Should you be destroying WAR in overall DPS? Yes. Last Resort is a 25% speed increase for 3 minutes, which is nuts. We get one of the nicest non-emp weapons there is, Twilight Scythe. It has its own dmg type making it not only strong but versatile.

And /mnk for Counterstance. XD With Gnarled Horn and Counterstance you have like a 70% Counter rate. All those counters for 400-600 DMG add up very quickly. Not only that but that's dmg that your not taking anymore, and when you do get hit you have Dread Spikes to fall back on.

[StingRay104]

Like I said until the last resort update we've been struggling, now we have more of a fighting chance. In my shell we have a Ukon war who hits 10k Ukko's often, thats a little to much for the last resort fix to compete with, and its not the only thing war has up their sleeves. Althought LR fix did in fact do wonders for our dps it still shouldn't be as hard for us or should I say as easy for other jobs especially war to pump out insane numbers. Now I got Caladbolg so I do insane amounts of damage and I'm quit proud of that but I still see problems with the job. First souleater and ws's, for gods sake I'm sick of guillotine, its not impressive anymore its just old and overused, and honestly I've never got any numbers off it that were even remotely impressive, granted I'm a GS drk but still you all are still treating it like its the god ws and it just doesn't do it anymore. Plus theirs the fact that since the KC drks abused souleater to hell and back and SE hated that fact we are never gonna see another multihit ws in our arsenal again, which is why I suggested a new way to determine ws damage while souleater is in effect. By taking our ws mod (for multihits like guillotine the combined mod of all successful hits) and multiplying it by 10% we get the new % of hp consumed/dealt in our souleater attack. This way it benefits all ws's and not just the multihits they aren't gonna give us. Magic being ignored by devs, couldn't agree with you more on that one, and honestly just getting tired of repeating same stuff so lets just say we all agree on magic. I love twilight scythe, its the last scythe I'll ever use, honestly I'm a gs drk so idc about scythe but when I need to I will use the hell outta twilight scythe for all its amazing awesomeness. Just curious when your /mnk and you have counterstance and last resort up how low is your def and how much damage you usually take from none countered hits? Ya /mnk is like the new and improved sub of abyssea, lots of jobs do great tanking with it and counteratmastance. Basically I see lots of room for improvement and since this thread is about DRK being good enough already I have to disagree and point out some of its many flaws, all jobs have flaws but drk has more than normal, tho definitely not the most.

[Masema]

Last resort doesn't do much to your DEF after you have Counterstance up. I think i get hit for between 150-300. At any rate, Dread Spikes + Regen from MC is more than enough to keep me at full health on exp mobs. 50 VIT for Torcleaver mod is nice as well. /mnk is fairly useless when facing the "Tougher" NMs though as you (hopefully) aren't tanking.

[Taint2]

DRK isn't keeping up with a Ukon WAR. Ever. All jobs can cap haste.

Did he mention SA WS? Am I being whooshed?

[Rezeak]

Last resort doesn't do much to your DEF after you have Counterstance up. I think i get hit for between 150-300. At any rate, Dread Spikes + Regen from MC is more than enough to keep me at full health on exp mobs. 50 VIT for Torcleaver mod is nice as well. /mnk is fairly useless when facing the "Tougher" NMs though as you (hopefully) aren't tanking.

LOL u know very little about DRK anyway /MNK in abyssea can pretty much tank anything that doesn't have a dispel.

for example u can duo Isgebind with just a DRK + WHM and he isn't a walk in the park either since i see groups of 10 struggle with him. (30/75 hearts for my caladborg)

Either way to the OP.
Saying DRK is fine is valid but mate it's lvl 90->99 time every job deserves to be improved then we have merits T2 either way saying we need nothing when all jobs are gonna be getting buffed is dumb.

I have more to say buuut it's pretty but been said and the fact is most pple disagree with you anyway which either means most pple are wrong or just ur wrong.

[Jar]

Zerged AV last weak with Caladbolg and i owned the WAR(ukko's) on the parse and i didnt even 2 hour <___< still have zergs i guess

[Darriken]

Considering a relic/emp, DRK trashes most DD outside of abyssea. Although the only thing that i parse outside of abyssea is basically einherjar (loleinherjar), But i never lose, whether it be ukon, masamune, or whatever you want to throw at it


Also just read the job manifesto, I like how WAR and SAM, they plan on giving these awesome damage job abilities, and they are giving DRK an increase in magic and elemental WS damage.... I guess all the stupid DRKs who ask for better magic are getting what they wanted, get your thunder 2 sets ready

[StingRay104]

Considering a relic/emp, DRK trashes most DD outside of abyssea. Although the only thing that i parse outside of abyssea is basically einherjar (loleinherjar), But i never lose, whether it be ukon, masamune, or whatever you want to throw at it


Also just read the job manifesto, I like how WAR and SAM, they plan on giving these awesome damage job abilities, and they are giving DRK an increase in magic and elemental WS damage.... I guess all the stupid DRKs who ask for better magic are getting what they wanted, get your thunder 2 sets ready

First off any drk who doesn't use mp isn't a drk and should just shut up and play war or sam. Second there has only been 1 person that I've ever seen bring up elemental nuking in these forums the rest have asked for better drk magic spells, and to make absorb spells worth casting, SE didn't listen to us yet again so don't start throwing stones when this is just another dumb idea from SE. Finally, they are goin to rework ws's, which means something is gonna change with ws's hopefully it will make things much better for us, so don't get your panties all in a bunch when we have absolutely no idea what the final outcome is. I for one am a little peeved at this to but I'm trying to look at potential uses for it, example I spend most my time in orange or red hp because my ls leader doesn't want to put a healer in my pt or healer is afk, so this new ability with nether void could make a very nice Drain 2 to get my hp without using meds. As for the elemental ws buff, I think it should be all ws damage as most of you are already saying, but if they fix Herculean to do good damage this could be a good thing. SE has always loved war I think the devs do play this game and the only job they play is war, I mean cmon this is beyond ridiculous with how much gold they keep giving war, now war can sneak attack without being /thf and from any angle. Sam is one of my top 3 jobs I play and I'm glad they are focusing on its ws dmg because thats what they are all about. The only question I really have is how are they gonna adjust ws's, and is this gonna include empy ws's and if so is torcleaver gonna be better or worst (Thats what I'm wondering because I got Caladbolg). I hope SE can deliver something fantastic with this but they sure set our expectations low.


Btw did you see bst's?\
BST can now be smn, WTF SE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[vedder]

i oddly understand SE giving dd's tact parry since before if u parried u dont get the 2tp just damage mitigation >_> not that it matters so much on our super awesome 255 capd skill

as for what we need, need our magik to be seamless with our mellee and have our mellee bumped up

[vedder]

lol i love taints comment, total win an so true

[Taint2]

Zerged AV last weak with Caladbolg and i owned the WAR(ukko's) on the parse and i didnt even 2 hour <___< still have zergs i guess


Post the parse, because the WAR messed up or was missing buffs. None of the recent updates for DRK have improved our zerging.

What SE needs to do is bump the delay cap to 90 or higher and DRKs will get a true boost. Until then every DD can hit the delay cap with minimal efforct, esp in a zerg.

93.3 was DRKs glory days and it was no more broken then SAM,WAR and MNK are now.

[Quetzacoatl]

I don't have any trouble competing with other DD's though. With Souleater and Last Resort up I out-parse everyone in alliance, including WAR with Ukon, in damage from melee swings alone, and I finish with overall dmg about equal to WAR with Ukon.

Yes, DRK has a lot of useless magic, what else is new? lol I did say i would like to see the issue with Absorb spells not stacking with cruor buffs resolved.

And not any good weaponskills? Guillotine is a decent weaponskill. Will it get numbers as high as Raging Rush inside abyssea? No. Should you be destroying WAR in overall DPS? Yes. Last Resort is a 25% speed increase for 3 minutes, which is nuts. We get one of the nicest non-emp weapons there is, Twilight Scythe. It has its own dmg type making it not only strong but versatile.

And /mnk for Counterstance. XD With Gnarled Horn and Counterstance you have like a 70% Counter rate. All those counters for 400-600 DMG add up very quickly. Not only that but that's dmg that your not taking anymore, and when you do get hit you have Dread Spikes to fall back on.

Pics of the parse or it didn't happen. If you want your words to have some integrity to them, at least back them up with citations.

[Jar]

Says the guy who doesn't realize he has an MP pool.

Just read this and i laughed Hardcore man <.< you rag about magic too not because it is Fundamentally retarded to cast magic on DRK unless you are bombing for 5K with a tier 3

[Jar]

Post the parse, because the WAR messed up or was missing buffs. None of the recent updates for DRK have improved our zerging.

What SE needs to do is bump the delay cap to 90 or higher and DRKs will get a true boost. Until then every DD can hit the delay cap with minimal efforct, esp in a zerg.

93.3 was DRKs glory days and it was no more broken then SAM,WAR and MNK are now.

430*0.8 < 488~*0.8 Last time i did math havign a lower delay weapon and More attack means you win in terms of DoT who cares about the crits when you are 400-500 attack closer to capping pdif...

[Jar]

First off any drk who doesn't use mp isn't a drk and should just shut up and play war or sam. Second there has only been 1 person that I've ever seen bring up elemental nuking in these forums

i could find at least 5 threads about it in the DRK forum alone...

[Taint2]

430*0.8 < 488~*0.8 Last time i did math havign a lower delay weapon and More attack means you win in terms of DoT who cares about the crits when you are 400-500 attack closer to capping pdif...

Post the parse. With Minx2, Curry and Zerk the WAR isn't have attack issues. They do however have 35% DA, retaliation and a superior WS and superior WS frequency.

[Jar]

Post the parse. With Minx2, Curry and Zerk the WAR isn't have attack issues. They do however have 35% DA, retaliation and a superior WS and superior WS frequency.
Its AV idiot Your not capping attack on it on WAR

Stoping to do To many weaponskills can also hurt you when you are capping haste too because there is a 2 sec delay and thats alot when the whole fight is less than a min Torcleaver Is alot closer to Ukko's outside.. <.<

[Taint2]

Its AV idiot Your not capping attack on it on WAR

Stoping to do To many weaponskills can also hurt you when you are capping haste too because there is a 2 sec delay and thats alot when the whole fight is less than a min Torcleaver Is alot closer to Ukko's outside.. <.<


Never said they would be capped. Closer is not better then. Stopping to use the best WS in the game is not an issue and is the reason why WARs always 5hit. Where as alot of other jobs can get away with 6hits with greater white damage. Esp at capped haste like you said you aren't keeping up.

There is no reason to ever delete a parse, did you eye ball it?

Edit:
Using Capped Haste and Ideal Equip I'm getting an average DPS of 368 for WAR and 264-278 for DRK. Anyone else that uses DPS wanna check my math. DRKs varies more because you can drop different gear and still hit the 80% haste cap.

[Jar]

Never said they would be capped. Closer is not better then. Stopping to use the best WS in the game is not an issue and is the reason why WARs always 5hit. Where as alot of other jobs can get away with 6hits with greater white damage. Esp at capped haste like you said you aren't keeping up.

There is no reason to ever delete a parse, did you eye ball it?

Edit:
Using Capped Haste and Ideal Equip I'm getting an average DPS of 368 for WAR and 264-278 for DRK. Anyone else that uses DPS wanna check my math. DRKs varies more because you can drop different gear and still hit the 80% haste cap.

Remove Retaliation from your mind because you will not Hold hate on it totally imposable.

Love to know where your getting such a huge Diffrense when WAr is Not going to out White damage DRK and the WS dmg on Torcleavers Avrg was The same as the best Ukko's from the best war there...

Minimum Delay for Ukon WAR is 97....
Minimum Delay for Calad DRK is 86....
Btw

[Taint2]

Remove Retaliation from your mind because you will not Hold hate on it totally imposable.

Love to know where your getting such a huge Diffrense when WAr is Not going to out White damage DRK and the WS dmg on Torcleavers Avrg was The same as the best Ukko's from the best war there...

Minimum Delay for Ukon WAR is 97....
Minimum Delay for Calad DRK is 86....
Btw

If Torcleaver is doing better then Ukko's something is wrong with the WAR, which is why I asked for the parse. Obviously you have it since you continue to reference it.


Melee WS
Stat -Agg/Ber +Agg/Ber -Agg/Ber +Agg/Ber
Skill 384 384 377 377
Acc 365 365 359 359
Att 392 392 385 385
Str 171 171 207 216
Vit 132 132
Dex 122 122 125 118
Base Att 563 563 598 597
Base Acc 493 493 495 484
Food Att 139 139 147 147
Food Acc 0 0 0 0
Chaos 0 0 0 0
Berserk 140 149
Stalwart's (att) 0 0 0 0
Aggressor 0 0
Stalwart's (acc) 0 0 0 0
Att 702 842 745 893
Acc 493 493 495 484
DA 23% 23% 24% 24%
TA 0% 0% 0% 0%
Dex Crit 9% 9% 9% 8%
Total Crit 14% 14% 20% 19%
Store TP 50 50 20 21
Raw Hit Rate 110.0% 110.0% 111.0% 105.5%
Hit Rate 95.0% 95.0% 95.0% 95.0%
cRatio 1.5071 1.8775 1.6209 1.9000
fStr 21 21 22 22
Swing Dmg 152 152 153 153
Crit Dmg 115% 115% 118% 118%
Avg Swing 335.879 410.601
Avg Round 392.475 479.787
Avg # Rnds 4.958 4.958
Melee Dmg 1946 2379
Base Wpn Dmg 153 153
WS Dmg 1577 1754


-Agg/Ber +Agg/Ber
Total Dmg 3523 4133

Round Dly 482 482
Magic Haste 37% 37%
JA Haste 20% 20%
Gear Haste 25% 25%
Total Haste 82% 82%
Min Dly 96.4 96.4
Haste Dly 96.40 96.40
Total Dly 598 598

DPS 353.466 414.729
Avg DPS: 397.576


And its safe to assume the WAR will have zerk up the entire zerg.


Stat TPSet1
Skill 375
Att 443
Acc 357
Str 147
Dex 101
Agi 70
Vit 99
Int 72
Mnd 72
Gear HP 0
Gear HPP 0%
Total HP 1567
Endark Recast # 16
Endark Att 37
Base Att 695
Base Acc 485
Food Att 150
Food Acc 0
Chaos 0
Stalwart's (att) 0
Berserk 0
Last Resort 171
Stalwart's (acc) 0
Aggressor 0
Att 1016
Acc 485
DA 15%
TA 0%
DW 0%
Delay per Weap 497
Base TP/Hit 13.5
Store TP 36
TP/Hit 18.3
Dex Crit 6%
C.Rate 11%
C.Dmg 105%
Raw Hit Rate 100.0%
Hit Rate 95.0%
cRatio 1.9000
fStr1 15
fStr2 0
W1 Dmg 135
W2 Dmg 0
Souleater On
Enhance SE 0%
Souleater % 10%
HP % 85%
SE Dmg/Hit 133
Stat TP Set 1
Melee
Hits/Rnd W1 1.103
Hits/Rnd W2 0.000
Emp Set Bonus 1%
Avg W1 275.965
AE W1 37.00
Avg W2 0.000
AE W2 0.00
Avg Rnd 491.718
Magic Haste 40%
JA Haste 24%
Catastrophe Haste 0%
Gear Haste 19%
Total Haste 83%
Nom. Delay 85.9
Min Delay 102.6
Delay/Round 102.6
Category DPS 287.554


Weaponskill
WS Main Dmg 139
WS Off Dmg 0
+fTP Gear 0.2
TP Bonus 0
WS Mult 100%
Regain Rate 2
Regain Amt 3
WS Dmg 1220
Base TP Rnds 5.19
Base TP Time 652.645
Total Damage 3772.971
Total DPS 346.863



Edit: This assumes 90 weapons on both parts.

DRK has LR,SE,Endark. Used Armadaberk with DA2,stp5 since AF3 body haste wasn't needed and Ebody is superior with those augments.

WAR is using a standard 5hit. Zerk up down serperated because thats how the page works. During a zerg you can use the right hand numbers.

[Jar]

If Torcleaver is doing better then Ukko's something is wrong with the WAR, which is why I asked for the parse. Obviously you have it since you continue to reference it.


Melee WS
Stat -Agg/Ber +Agg/Ber -Agg/Ber +Agg/Ber
Skill 384 384 377 377
Acc 365 365 359 359
Att 392 392 385 385
Str 171 171 207 216
Vit 132 132
Dex 122 122 125 118
Base Att 563 563 598 597
Base Acc 493 493 495 484
Food Att 139 139 147 147
Food Acc 0 0 0 0
Chaos 0 0 0 0
Berserk 140 149
Stalwart's (att) 0 0 0 0
Aggressor 0 0
Stalwart's (acc) 0 0 0 0
Att 702 842 745 893
Acc 493 493 495 484
DA 23% 23% 24% 24%
TA 0% 0% 0% 0%
Dex Crit 9% 9% 9% 8%
Total Crit 14% 14% 20% 19%
Store TP 50 50 20 21
Raw Hit Rate 110.0% 110.0% 111.0% 105.5%
Hit Rate 95.0% 95.0% 95.0% 95.0%
cRatio 1.5071 1.8775 1.6209 1.9000
fStr 21 21 22 22
Swing Dmg 152 152 153 153
Crit Dmg 115% 115% 118% 118%
Avg Swing 335.879 410.601
Avg Round 392.475 479.787
Avg # Rnds 4.958 4.958
Melee Dmg 1946 2379
Base Wpn Dmg 153 153
WS Dmg 1577 1754


-Agg/Ber +Agg/Ber
Total Dmg 3523 4133

Round Dly 482 482
Magic Haste 37% 37%
JA Haste 20% 20%
Gear Haste 25% 25%
Total Haste 82% 82%
Min Dly 96.4 96.4
Haste Dly 96.40 96.40
Total Dly 598 598

DPS 353.466 414.729
Avg DPS: 397.576


And its safe to assume the WAR will have zerk up the entire zerg.


Stat TPSet1
Skill 375
Att 443
Acc 357
Str 147
Dex 101
Agi 70
Vit 99
Int 72
Mnd 72
Gear HP 0
Gear HPP 0%
Total HP 1567
Endark Recast # 16
Endark Att 37
Base Att 695
Base Acc 485
Food Att 150
Food Acc 0
Chaos 0
Stalwart's (att) 0
Berserk 0
Last Resort 171
Stalwart's (acc) 0
Aggressor 0
Att 1016
Acc 485
DA 15%
TA 0%
DW 0%
Delay per Weap 497
Base TP/Hit 13.5
Store TP 36
TP/Hit 18.3
Dex Crit 6%
C.Rate 11%
C.Dmg 105%
Raw Hit Rate 100.0%
Hit Rate 95.0%
cRatio 1.9000
fStr1 15
fStr2 0
W1 Dmg 135
W2 Dmg 0
Souleater On
Enhance SE 0%
Souleater % 10%
HP % 85%
SE Dmg/Hit 133
Stat TP Set 1
Melee
Hits/Rnd W1 1.103
Hits/Rnd W2 0.000
Emp Set Bonus 1%
Avg W1 275.965
AE W1 37.00
Avg W2 0.000
AE W2 0.00
Avg Rnd 491.718
Magic Haste 40%
JA Haste 24%
Catastrophe Haste 0%
Gear Haste 19%
Total Haste 83%
Nom. Delay 85.9
Min Delay 102.6
Delay/Round 102.6
Category DPS 287.554


Weaponskill
WS Main Dmg 139
WS Off Dmg 0
+fTP Gear 0.2
TP Bonus 0
WS Mult 100%
Regain Rate 2
Regain Amt 3
WS Dmg 1220
Base TP Rnds 5.19
Base TP Time 652.645
Total Damage 3772.971
Total DPS 346.863



Edit: This assumes 90 weapons on both parts.

DRK has LR,SE,Endark. Used Armadaberk with DA2,stp5 since AF3 body haste wasn't needed and Ebody is superior with those augments.

WAR is using a standard 5hit. Zerk up down serperated because thats how the page works. During a zerg you can use the right hand numbers.

DRK is /war bro and Pdif on AV doesnt work like what you are posting. also he resists Souleater

Assume that you need 2000Attack

[Taint2]

DRK is /war bro and Pdif on AV doesnt work like what you are posting. also he resists Souleater

Assume that you need 2000Attack


AV has a -pdt trait which is even amongst all engaged. /war isn't helping your case nor is resist souleater. I was trying to get them close. Working on Cala myself but DRK can compete with WAR and Torclever can't compete with Ukkos. 11 base tp per hit really hurts Cala, if it was 6hitable (in solid gear) it would be drastically better.

[Rezeak]

I really don't get what ya saying taint if ya trying to prove a point with maths plz try and present it a little better.

Also there is so much that isn't covered by this i mean there's things like WS delay and DRK could have one more attack song over WAR unless ya using 3 brds (which we don't need anymore).

Not to mention were has ur WAR got 20% ja haste from ?
why is the DRK using empyrean Scythe when ur arguing about cala ?
And i also believe Sword strap counts towards the total 80% cap.

All i'm saying is before u go trying to prove something u need to consider all the varibles

Outside all this i would rather Zerg DRK/SAM so i can do 300% Torcleaver for the lvl 3 aftermath then just melee in high haste(stacking some nice crit gear) because i seem to lose DMG from the WS delay but thats just what i do.

[Urteil]

If Taint likes WAR so much why isn't he playing one?

[Jar]

AV has a -pdt trait which is even amongst all engaged. /war isn't helping your case nor is resist souleater. I was trying to get them close. Working on Cala myself but DRK can compete with WAR and Torclever can't compete with Ukkos. 11 base tp per hit really hurts Cala, if it was 6hitable (in solid gear) it would be drastically better.

Source for PDT trait BS please?

he takes -50% with bracelets up only is all i can find and he still has 999 def at least from what i see meaning to get 2.2 ratio you would need 2200 attack ish

[Neisan_Quetz]

Why was there no Dia, and loldrg but Angon would have helped.

[Raksha]

Not to mention were has ur WAR got 20% ja haste from ?


I'm guessing Hasso + Haste Samba.

[Rezeak]

I'd rather another WAR DRK MNK DRG over dnc for haste samba or even a COR for the attack speed/attack rolls

[Taint2]

I really don't get what ya saying taint if ya trying to prove a point with maths plz try and present it a little better.

Also there is so much that isn't covered by this i mean there's things like WS delay and DRK could have one more attack song over WAR unless ya using 3 brds (which we don't need anymore).

Not to mention were has ur WAR got 20% ja haste from ?
why is the DRK using empyrean Scythe when ur arguing about cala ?
And i also believe Sword strap counts towards the total 80% cap.

All i'm saying is before u go trying to prove something u need to consider all the varibles

Outside all this i would rather Zerg DRK/SAM so i can do 300% Torcleaver for the lvl 3 aftermath then just melee in high haste(stacking some nice crit gear) because i seem to lose DMG from the WS delay but thats just what i do.

Jar said capped haste and most people bring DNCs to AV. Haste samba when the 10% is used is greater then adding another DD.

WS delay is factored in. Not WSing again is just silly esp since torcleaver is a solid WS outside.

[Taint2]

Source for PDT trait BS please?

he takes -50% with bracelets up only is all i can find and he still has 999 def at least from what i see meaning to get 2.2 ratio you would need 2200 attack ish

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Talk:Absolute_Virtue#Testimonials

As AV’s HP decreases it gains both physical and magical resistance as far as damage is concerned, i.e., it progressively takes less damage. Shield Bash damage ranged from 110~223 from 45~100% HP, and non-resisted AMII ranged from 500~800 (this is not damage cut from NM elemental resist building).


I've only fought him a few times. But also asked Excellence who farm him regularly and they concur.

[Taint2]

Why was there no Dia, and loldrg but Angon would have helped.


I was trying to keep the DEF up since I can't find Jar's 999 def anywhere.

My WAR is really nice btw, only missing a relic/emp/mythic but I can't stand the job. I just don't accept/like when people make false comments about their DRK. Then reference a parse that doesn't exist. Then deflect the conversation everytime its brought up.

[Kagato]

I just don't accept/like when people make false comments about their DRK. Then reference a parse that doesn't exist. Then deflect the conversation everytime its brought up.

This is why I flat out don't listen to certain people on this board.

[Rezeak]

WS delay is factored in.
Just curious what is WS delay btw i have never zerged AV so maybe using Torcleaver could be good but from what i've heard AV is a joke anyway can almost be killed by a decent 6

As for a DRK beating a WAR on AV it possible even if WAR is better geared because of things like lag or w/e

anyway i'm sure at the end of the day DRK vs WAR zerg on AV is more about who has less lag/luck/skill than the difference in job.

Anyway some interesting stuff.

Imo WAR would prolly beat DRK when equal geared/skilled/lucky because WAR/SAM can Blood rage the X3 ukkos using Sekkanoki + meditate

but for me my DRK would wreck my WAR epically since i have 90 emp for my DRK and some crappy Gaxe for my WAR lol.

[Taint2]

Just curious what is WS delay btw i have never zerged AV so maybe using Torcleaver could be good but from what i've heard AV is a joke anyway can almost be killed by a decent 6

As for a DRK beating a WAR on AV it possible even if WAR is better geared because of things like lag or w/e

anyway i'm sure at the end of the day DRK vs WAR zerg on AV is more about who has less lag/luck/skill than the difference in job.

Anyway some interesting stuff.

Imo WAR would prolly beat DRK when equal geared/skilled/lucky because WAR/SAM can Blood rage the X3 ukkos using Sekkanoki + meditate

but for me my DRK would wreck my WAR epically since i have 90 emp for my DRK and some crappy Gaxe for my WAR lol.


WS delay is 2seconds.

I wouldn't argue with any of your post. But Jar said a Ukon WAR which is a different beast.

[Leonlionheart]

So much fail in this thread...

For the record, even though WS delay is 2seconds, when you're doing several times more damage with your weaponskill than you would with auto-attack in 2 seconds, that argument is irrelevant, isn't it?

[Urteil]

I still find it hilarious that SE didn't even give us Blizzard III this passed 90 update.


I can't slam my face into my hand hard enough.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

[Taint2]

I still find it hilarious that SE didn't even give us Blizzard III this passed 90 update.


I can't slam my face into my hand hard enough.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

You know I was just thinking that as well. Camping NMs for Cala its always fun to blow them up. (when else is it worth casting an elemental spell on DRK)

[Kagato]

In a way, I see these new modes as SE's way of giving us those "stances" idea that was brought up a while ago. We have a melee and a magic mode.

Regardless, I still want to see more dark magic spells unique to DRKs. but if Elemental magic actually becomes useful, I welcome it with open arms.

Dealing Tier 4 damage using only Tier 3 spells would be really nice.

[Dart]

I take a month off, thinking we had most of the idiots scared off and come back to...........


/sigh...........................................................................

[Urteil]

I take a month off, thinking we had most of the idiots scared off and come back to...........


/sigh...........................................................................

Don't blame them for what SE does.

SE DO WAT IT WANT.

[Jar]

I take a month off, thinking we had most of the idiots scared off and come back to...........


/sigh...........................................................................




lmoa WB Dart xD

[Dart]

I have around 18-22 AV kills under my belt. Can confirm its -pdt at low health. All parses showed around 40-50% pdt at lower health (sub 50% is when it starts and gradually builds, think rani)

[Jar]

I have around 18-22 AV kills under my belt. Can confirm its -pdt at low health. All parses showed around 40-50% pdt at lower health (sub 50% is when it starts and gradually builds, think rani)

yeah its -50% when he puts bracelets on(at 50% hp)

[Chriscoffey]

Its AV idiot Your not capping attack on it on WAR

Stoping to do To many weaponskills can also hurt you when you are capping haste too because there is a 2 sec delay and thats alot when the whole fight is less than a min Torcleaver Is alot closer to Ukko's outside.. <.<
The only reason for that is someone doesn't have a clue how to build a crititcal hit WS build like the atma do in abyssea. I honestly meet very few people that even understand the dex/agi critical hit tier %'s on this game . That would be the underlying factor on building a good Uko. build or falling behind to Cal.

[Jar]

The only reason for that is someone doesn't have a clue how to build a crititcal hit WS build like the atma do in abyssea. I honestly meet very few people that even understand the dex/agi critical hit tier %'s on this game . That would be the underlying factor on building a good Uko. build or falling behind to Cal.

Torcleaver Did not beat them in Weaponskill damage Tho Avrg Ukkos was only doing 700~ more.


DRK won for the raw fact that Caladbolg will hit MUCH MUCH faster than Ukon.


DRK bosts 86 Delay with Caladbolg with march haste Last resort and doesnt even need full haste in gear to hit 80% (needs 12% in gear to cap)

while ukon.. war will only be at 78.71% haste(102.6133 delay) unless you group took another DD worth of damage out to put a DNC in .. retarded to say the least.

now lets say they BOTH hit for the full 1 and a half min of PD

WAR 1.71 sec delay and 90 sec zerg = 52 swings
DRK 1.43 sec delay and 90 sec zerg = 62 swings

The DRK is meleeing 16.12% Faster and has a VERY significant lead with PDIF Infact unless you are 2 houring on WAR this difference is massive.

so how about this for logic? Bring the job that DOESNT need the BRDs or itself to 2 hour? or bring the jobs that only wins when EVERYONE twohours? when doing 5 AV in an event Its retarded to use that much time on Two hours because you can only have so many CORs and taking everyone out of the zone into abyssea to reset isnt fast either.

[Chriscoffey]

Torcleaver Did not beat them in Weaponskill damage Tho Avrg Ukkos was only doing 700~ more.


DRK won for the raw fact that Caladbolg will hit MUCH MUCH faster than Ukon.


DRK bosts 86 Delay with Caladbolg with march haste Last resort and doesnt even need full haste in gear to hit 80% (needs 12% in gear to cap)

while ukon.. war will only be at 78.71% haste(102.6133 delay) unless you group took another DD worth of damage out to put a DNC in .. retarded to say the least.

now lets say they BOTH hit for the full 1 and a half min of PD

WAR 1.71 sec delay and 90 sec zerg = 52 swings
DRK 1.43 sec delay and 90 sec zerg = 62 swings

The DRK is meleeing 16.12% Faster and has a VERY significant lead with PDIF Infact unless you are 2 houring on WAR this difference is massive.

so how about this for logic? Bring the job that DOESNT need the BRDs or itself to 2 hour? or bring the jobs that only wins when EVERYONE twohours? when doing 5 AV in an event Its retarded to use that much time on Two hours because you can only have so many CORs and taking everyone out of the zone into abyssea to reset isnt fast either.

Hmm interesting but where does your double attack rate factor into this particular example considering warriors get vast amounts of DA now upping their overall attack rate and TP gain.

[Jar]

Hmm interesting but where does your double attack rate factor into this particular example considering warriors get vast amounts of DA now upping their overall attack rate and TP gain.

you zerg drk/war so the double attack difference is only about 3 hits(war at 30% DRK at 20%) the war would need much more hits than that or someway to get alot more attack to close the gap.

[Taint2]

you zerg drk/war so the double attack difference is only about 3 hits(war at 30% DRK at 20%) the war would need much more hits than that or someway to get alot more attack to close the gap.


You are so out of touch with Reality, its getting old. Your assumptions aren't even correct and you vastly underestimate WARs damage potential, esp in a zerg. The parse is still vapor and you are still talking out of your rearend. Drop it and troll another thread.

[Jar]

You are so out of touch with Reality, its getting old. Your assumptions aren't even correct and you vastly underestimate WARs damage potential, esp in a zerg. The parse is still vapor and you are still talking out of your rearend. Drop it and troll another thread.


Less crying more math if im so wrong tell me why.

lets say AV has 999 def - diaIII and angon (999)-(999*.35)= 649 def

649*2.2(caped PDIF value) =1428 attack

now DRK....
(8+354+16+5+(99+36*.75)+70[from gear]+60[traits]+62[endark]((81+66)*2)[songs])= 970+50% (Last resort + Berserk) = 1455+150(Red Curry bun)= 1605 (capped)

now.. war....
(8+361+16+(99+36*.75)+200[from gear and ill give it a bonus <3]+10[trait]((81+66)*2)[songs])= +50% (Last resort + Berserk) = +150(Red Curry bun)= 1387.5 STILL not capping and i gave you +200 attack in gear lmao an imposable number to get.


so hitting slower and having less attack what hidden fanboy math am i missing in this?

[Taint2]

Less crying more math if im so wrong tell me why.

lets say AV has 999 def - diaIII and angon (999)-(999*.35)= 649 def

649*2.2(caped PDIF value) =1428 attack

now DRK....
(8+354+16+5+(99+36*.75)+70[from gear]+60[traits]+62[endark]((81+66)*2)[songs])= 970+50% (Last resort + Berserk) = 1455+150(Red Curry bun)= 1605 (capped)

now.. war....
(8+361+16+(99+36*.75)+200[from gear and ill give it a bonus <3]+10[trait]((81+66)*2)[songs])= +50% (Last resort + Berserk) = +150(Red Curry bun)= 1387.5 STILL not capping and i gave you +200 attack in gear lmao an imposable number to get.


so hitting slower and having less attack what hidden fanboy math am i missing in this?


Right because capping attack is the end all be all. Esp against a job with a higher crit rate which more then negates the attack difference. (if the WAR 2hrs just chuck the att diff out the window) 6hit /sam with 34DA+set bonus (thats what I tp in) and opening with Sekka is going to crush out the extra attack.
The only way a DRK is beating a WAR in a zerg is with SE and we know that doesn't work on AV. I've played with the DPS calc and there isn't a senario where DRK beats WAR.

[Jar]

Right because capping attack is the end all be all. Esp against a job with a higher crit rate which more then negates the attack difference. (if the WAR 2hrs just chuck the att diff out the window) 6hit /sam with 34DA+set bonus (thats what I tp in) and opening with Sekka is going to crush out the extra attack.
The only way a DRK is beating a WAR in a zerg is with SE and we know that doesn't work on AV. I've played with the DPS calc and there isn't a senario where DRK beats WAR.


The DRK is meleeing 16.12% Faster and has a VERY significant lead with PDIF Infact unless you are 2 houring on WAR this difference is massive.


Kinda Wish i could only quote..

Yeah and its the end all be all when i can overexadurate your attack and your still not capping

real war attack is only 1199.5 making pdif 1.848228043143297

1.848/2.2 = 0.84 so 16% less dmg with just pdif added to there already diminished attack speed doing to ... over 30% less damage now?

[Neisan_Quetz]

Well someone didn't read.

[Taint2]

Kinda Wish i could only quote..

Yeah and its the end all be all when i can overexadurate your attack and your still not capping

real war attack is only 1199.5 making pdif 1.848228043143297

1.848/2.2 = 0.84 so 16% less dmg with just pdif added to there already diminished attack speed doing to ... over 30% less damage now?



Right because capping attack is the end all be all. Esp against a job with a higher crit rate which more then negates the attack difference. (if the WAR 2hrs just chuck the att diff out the window) 6hit /sam with 34DA+set bonus (thats what I tp in) and opening with Sekka is going to crush out the extra attack.
The only way a DRK is beating a WAR in a zerg is with SE and we know that doesn't work on AV. I've played with the DPS calc and there isn't a senario where DRK beats WAR.


Maybe a second read will help you.

[Jar]

Esp against a job with a higher crit rate which more then negates the attack difference.

Guessing that what you wanted a reply on?


A Critical Hit is an attack that does more than the usual amount of damage to a monster.
When an attack scores a critical hit, a different animation is used instead of the normal hit animation.

The higher an attacker's DEX, the greater their Critical Hit Rate against an opponent is. The higher a defender's AGI, the less likely they are to have critical hits scored against them.

The minimum critical hit rate from DEX vs. AGI is 5%, the maximum is 20%. Equipment and merits that increase critical hit rate are added on top of this.

It is currently believed that critical rate caps out when DEX is 50 points higher than AGI, at least at level 75. Verification Needed

Critical Hit rate follows an exponential curve. Minor increases in DEX will not have a significant impact on critical hit rate (e.g. DEX+1 = +0.25 critical hit rate). Major increases in DEX increase the rate significantly, whereby DEX+1 ~= +1% critical hit rate.


i see Nothing in ther that would put you ahead of a drk...

[Darriken]

I'm not really sure how to do all of that math and stuff, but I've done 3 AV's recently, that i won with both apocalypse and caladbolg vs. Ukons, verethragnas, etc. Same thing for einherjar. I don't see anything beating a good DRK outside of abyssea at this point in time in this game.

[Chriscoffey]

Guessing that what you wanted a reply on?


A Critical Hit is an attack that does more than the usual amount of damage to a monster.
When an attack scores a critical hit, a different animation is used instead of the normal hit animation.

The higher an attacker's DEX, the greater their Critical Hit Rate against an opponent is. The higher a defender's AGI, the less likely they are to have critical hits scored against them.

The minimum critical hit rate from DEX vs. AGI is 5%, the maximum is 20%. Equipment and merits that increase critical hit rate are added on top of this.

It is currently believed that critical rate caps out when DEX is 50 points higher than AGI, at least at level 75. Verification Needed

Critical Hit rate follows an exponential curve. Minor increases in DEX will not have a significant impact on critical hit rate (e.g. DEX+1 = +0.25 critical hit rate). Major increases in DEX increase the rate significantly, whereby DEX+1 ~= +1% critical hit rate.


i see Nothing in ther that would put you ahead of a drk...
Blood Rage
Job Ability
Enhances critical hit rate and critical hit damage for party members within area of effect.
Obtained: Warrior Level 87
Recast Time: 5:00
Duration: 0:30
Distance: Information Needed
Increases Critical Hit Damage and Critical Hit Rate by 20%.
Overwrites and is overwritten by Warcry.
Does not stack with Boost. Blood Rage will have no effect if Boost is active.

That is 20% + the dex/agi critical tier rate which can be 20% more, however I am not sure AV agi to be able to know this or if its obtainable. It does prove that Taint is right that War get higher critical rate than Dark of which you stated you didn't see. Dark could be in the same party and potentially get this buff but it doesn't help as much since their critical WS suck but more so a warriors Uko.


I'm not really sure how to do all of that math and stuff, but I've done 3 AV's recently, that i won with both apocalypse and caladbolg vs. Ukons, verethragnas, etc. Same thing for einherjar. I don't see anything beating a good DRK outside of abyssea at this point in time in this game.

I know from my own personal experience using dark vs my warrior that when i set myself up for a critical hit build outside of abyssea that my dark isn't coming close to my warrior. They have an amazing set of abilities and if we are just comparing 1 mob to the entire game that is asinine to define a job by that standing point alone. I reiterate what i said before about most warriors having no clue about critical builds as i have personally witness so many with Uko that clearly don't understand it's use. I used to destroy people with my dragoon with a cletine vs a valk fork simply because my critical tier rate was boosted to a point drakesbane destroyed them. You would get the occasional day that critical would not proc well but very rarely. It was more of a weird algorithm from SE's spaghetti code on those days IMO.

[Jar]

Blood Rage
Job Ability
Enhances critical hit rate and critical hit damage for party members within area of effect.
Obtained: Warrior Level 87
Recast Time: 5:00
Duration: 0:30
Distance: Information Needed
Increases Critical Hit Damage and Critical Hit Rate by 20%.
Overwrites and is overwritten by Warcry.
Does not stack with Boost. Blood Rage will have no effect if Boost is active.

That is 20% + the dex/agi critical tier rate which can be 20% more, however I am not sure AV agi to be able to know this or if its obtainable. It does prove that Taint is right that War get higher critical rate than Dark of which you stated you didn't see. Dark could be in the same party and potentially get this buff but it doesn't help them since their critical WS suck but more so a warriors Uko.


lol blood Rage was already factored into WS damage thats why Ukko's is doing about 700~1K more but thats not enough to make up for anything


also Base crit caps at 20% and that is the DEX Vs. AGI formula i posted there is no 20% + the dex/Agi

Both WAR and DRK will be at about 45% Crit rate with Blood rage up now should i go into how the weaponskill math works so you can win on one of my posts?

[Taint2]

I'm not really sure how to do all of that math and stuff, but I've done 3 AV's recently, that i won with both apocalypse and caladbolg vs. Ukons, verethragnas, etc. Same thing for einherjar. I don't see anything beating a good DRK outside of abyssea at this point in time in this game.


Oh good! another guy with a parse, is your made up like Jars or can you post it?

Or will fake math about how AV has 999 def be an easier argument lol.

[Jar]

Oh good! another guy with a parse, is your made up like Jars or can you post it?

Or will fake math about how AV has 999 def be an easier argument lol.

you cant post them here....

[Chriscoffey]

lol blood Rage was already factored into WS damage thats why Ukko's is doing about 700~1K more but thats not enough to make up for anything


also Base crit caps at 20% and that is the DEX Vs. AGI formula i posted there is no 20% + the dex/Agi

Both WAR and DRK will be at about 45% Crit rate with Blood rage up now should i go into how the weaponskill math works so you can win on one of my posts?
I would like to see where it is listed that blood rage 20% and the 20% from dex/agi is the same category and capped. I believe you didn't read what i posted since its apparent you stated they would be at 45% which is merit crit + war JA BR + dex/agi crit% and what I stated above.

[Jar]

I would like to see where it is listed that blood rage 20% and the 20% from dex/agi is the same category and capped. I believe you didn't read what i posted since its apparent you stated they would be at 45% which is merit crit + war JA BR + dex/agi crit% and what I stated above.
Must have misread it i thought you where saying you where getting 20% from no where lol

but the math i said still stands my DRK sits at 46% crit rate

[Chriscoffey]

Jar me and taint could post parse after parse and it wouldn't change your mind. I have argued with people in your mindset for years and unless we can physically parse each other there will always be a stalemate on this. I can offer that once i get my apocalypse i will move servers and prove in parsing just how much i do know. The last time someone was "knowing" with me about this they had apocalypse and i had stage 4 and I outparsed them by 15% in Einherjar before all "easy mode" abyssea came out. My very last parse was this same dark vs a war/nin and sam/war (polearm) with above average gear on birds. I was at 41% and i tanked most of the fight losing my TP to the birds. My response to your warrior argument is I personally don't believe they know how to fully utilize their equipment just like the others I have parsed against. I am perfectly fine moving back to Ragnarok and parsing against whoever you want as your god icon for your scenario. I miss UNC anyways he's my huggle buddy.

[Darriken]

Oh good! another guy with a parse, is your made up like Jars or can you post it?

Or will fake math about how AV has 999 def be an easier argument lol.

I started posting parses on my ls's website starting from 2 einherjars ago. You should be able to see them there if you care enough to look.

On AV the damage between me and like an Ukko's WAR is very minimal like ~1k damage because the fight is so short, but on a longer parse like einherjar, it's not even close, I'm over a quarter of the damage of a parse consisting of about 8 DD's.

[Jar]

Jar me and taint could post parse after parse and it wouldn't change your mind. I have argued with people in your mindset for years and unless we can physically parse each other there will always be a stalemate on this. I can offer that once i get my apocalypse i will move servers and prove in parsing just how much i do know. The last time someone was "knowing" with me about this they had apocalypse and i had stage 4 and I outparsed them by 15% in Einherjar before all "easy mode" abyssea came out. My very last parse was this same dark vs a war/nin and sam/war (polearm) with above average gear on birds. I was at 41% and i tanked most of the fight losing my TP to the birds. My response to your warrior argument is I personally don't believe they know how to fully utilize their equipment just like the others I have parsed against. I am perfectly fine moving back to Ragnarok and parsing against whoever you want as your god icon for your scenario. I miss UNC anyways he's my huggle buddy.

Most of what i have posted i have supported with math my 8th grade brother could understand


if there is such a difference That all of what i am posting can be laughed off with immature jokes like others are posting there should be a mathematical situation or some number they can inform me about this.

also If DEF is lower than 999 Gekko / Fudo comparisons would say so and Fudo is doing a little more where gekko is about 7-800 and fudo will do about 1.3K

soooo 1.5625 ftp on gekko 3.65 on Fudo

so if im right and sam can get about the same attack as you for fudo ill toss in 1.848228043143297 Pdif for Fudo

and put 2.2 for Gekko

Gekko .75 STr mod and fudo at .6

lets ball park 170 STR on both Using ( D + fSTR + WSC) * fTP * PDIF for WS damage but going to cut out Fstr because its to much work and we want a basic compare i cant do it too if you want after i post this

( 114 + 20 + (170*.6)) * 3.65 * 1.848 = 1773.9876 for fudo (op because they cant get Quite that much attack i dont think prob closer to a 1.6 PDIF)
( 114 + 20 + (170*.75)) * 1.5625 * 2.2 = 898.90625 for gekko

The one i am looking at now did not get Diaed and Fudo is doing about 1K flat 450-500 with PDT up
soo that comes pretty close ........

[Chriscoffey]

I just offered to prove that by moving servers. You have a very snooty behavior that behoves me believe that the only way to prove you wrong, like many others I have encountered, is by physically showing you on the game. The math i quite clearly understand as it is my basis for the counter argument. I am quite convinced even posting parse data would only have negative effects so I feel as if a one on one physical showing quite clearly would show you the results needed to win this approach to your belittlement of everyone involved. You can either accept or decline the offer at this point. There have been many things in life that on paper looked rock solid but in practical use was failed logic because someone forgot about something called "human error".

[Jar]

I just offered to prove that by moving servers. You have a very snooty behavior that behoves me believe that the only way to prove you wrong, like many others I have encountered, is by physically showing you on the game. The math i quite clearly understand as it is my basis for the counter argument. I am quite convinced even posting parse data would only have negative effects so I feel as if a one on one physical showing quite clearly would show you the results needed to win this approach to your belittlement of everyone involved. You can either accept or decline the offer at this point. There have been many things in life that on paper looked rock solid but in practical use was failed logic because someone forgot about something called "human error".


so you where insulting me like a child asking to bring something to my server?

Math or GTFO Plain and simple.




also my argument doesnt support the human error comeback thing <3

im simply Stating why DRK CAN win it is totally up to the player if this math holds up. Tho It would talk a very bad player to lose after All of the data i have put up because it sure seams like DRK has a hefty lead.

[Chriscoffey]

so you where insulting me like a child asking to bring something to my server?

Math or GTFO Plain and simple.




also my argument doesnt support the human error comeback thing <3


I'm simply stating why DRK CAN win it is totally up to the player if this math holds up. Tho It would talk a very bad player to lose after All of the data i have put up because it sure seams like DRK has a hefty lead.
A child is your stance where you name call IE "it's AV idiot" and other replies in previous post. I don't really care what you believe but I respect what Taint has to say as me and him have had arguments over catastrophe use before. I can't recall his belittlement of me ever during any of those conversations. I am being an adult in this situation and saying once I finish my apocalypse I can lay the foundation of proof in front of your face which is apparently the only way to get through to you at this point.

You can also always take into account human error as that is what is running the characters which in turn run the parse which what i said holds true about people not understanding the game dynamics in more detail. You keep talking about how dark mathematically holds up more against a warrior but your discernment of the stance on warrior is their critical/DA rate won't prevail over dark's speed.

You state your math by giving warrior less haste, not using their 2 hour and other ideas which lower their overall DOT to be prevalent over dark by a considerable margin. You nitpick 1 scenario with 1 mob and stand behind it as that is the underlying end all be all result of which you believe our comprehension is lacking. I remember me and Taint having another argument with Pathwriter who had that same type of scenario as well for Last Resort and it making Dark the new god outside abyssea.

[Jar]

You state your math by giving warrior less haste, not using their 2 hour and other ideas which lower their overall DOT to be prevalent over dark by a considerable margin.

I cut out WAR 2 hour becuase in my One situation i am nitpicking it is a hinderance to count on a 2 hour if you would like to know why read back i dont want to quote it

WAR gets less haste because of just that WAR GETS LESS HASTE because 80% is NOT possible with out a DNC and... who would bring a dnc not another WAR?

[Dart]

to be fair my shell usually has a dnc in the "main dd" party

[TetsujinX]

My head hurts from reading all of this. Let us all just agree to disagree and keep it moving. The argument is pointless as both sides will be arguing this until the end of time, regardless of how much proof or math is used as evidence.

[Rezeak]

WAR gets less haste because of just that WAR GETS LESS HASTE because 80% is NOT possible with out a DNC and... who would bring a dnc not another WAR?

if DNC brings WAR up to 80% haste then it's near a 50% DMG increase and if thats on 3 WARs that DNC is adding more than what 1 more WAR ......

Not to mention Box step if stacked with Dia III + angon is like increase EVERYONE in the ally's Attack by 7.7%(lv 2) to 20% (lv 5).

Also it's about making the most of what you have 1 DNC can enhance the 3 Strongest WARs meaning that the DNC doesn't need anything special to be as useful as the 3 WAR infact it could even be Dual boxed.

[Jar]

if DNC brings WAR up to 80% haste then it's near a 50% DMG increase and if thats on 3 WARs that DNC is adding more than what 1 more WAR ......

Not to mention Box step if stacked with Dia III + angon is like increase EVERYONE in the ally's Attack by 7.7%(lv 2) to 20% (lv 5).

Also it's about making the most of what you have 1 DNC can enhance the 3 Strongest WARs meaning that the DNC doesn't need anything special to be as useful as the 3 WAR infact it could even be Dual boxed.

3war + dnc to cap haste on the 3 war(20ish% boost <3 not 50%) and get pdif alittle closer~cap

will not beat the 4 DRK that could take that place and cap everything with just a brds buffs.

[Rezeak]

How is it 20%?

Magic is 35-37%
Gear + hasso is 35%

So ur looking at 3.33-3.5 x attack speed

At 80% haste your at 5x attack speed

so your looks at 50%-42% increase in DMG roughly.

The lvl 2 box step would mean u need 1274 attack to cap which WAR would hit via ur calculations.

Honestly Jar i don't know where you get ur stuff from i mean ok in an ideal sitituation where every player has every job pimped out it may be the case to take a DRK X 12 to AV but it's not like that so a WAR having DNC isn't a dumb concept even considering it's steps are a decent boost when stacked with other def down sources.

Not to mention WAR is gonna have Sekki and Meditate

Either way screw it if WAR can't have a DNC just buy a Haste belt and it can have 80% Haste because it counts towards magic so now u have ur 4 WARs at full haste vs 4 DRKs

not to mention AV may not even have 999 def it may have less or more u can't really guess it either way if i had to guess it would be less but w/e it's pointless stuff AV is easy.

[Chriscoffey]

"Denial" is a defense mechanism postulated by Sigmund Freud, in which a person is faced with a fact that is too uncomfortable to accept and rejects it instead, insisting that it is not true despite what may be overwhelming evidence. Sound familar?

[Jar]

How is it 20%?

Magic is 35-37%
Gear + hasso is 35%

So ur looking at 3.33-3.5 x attack speed

At 80% haste your at 5x attack speed

so your looks at 50%-42% increase in DMG roughly.

The lvl 2 box step would mean u need 1274 attack to cap which WAR would hit via ur calculations.

Honestly Jar i don't know where you get ur stuff from i mean ok in an ideal sitituation where every player has every job pimped out it may be the case to take a DRK X 12 to AV but it's not like that so a WAR having DNC isn't a dumb concept even considering it's steps are a decent boost when stacked with other def down sources.

Not to mention WAR is gonna have Sekki and Meditate

Either way screw it if WAR can't have a DNC just buy a Haste belt and it can have 80% Haste because it counts towards magic so now u have ur 4 WARs at full haste vs 4 DRKs

not to mention AV may not even have 999 def it may have less or more u can't really guess it either way if i had to guess it would be less but w/e it's pointless stuff AV is easy.

war will be at 78.7% haste w/o a dancer cutting Soul voice gives you about 180 less attack also therefor no more cappy on war with steps <3

DEF i did with gekko and fudo comparison math not even 5 posts ago put def at 999 or more<.<

and even with full haste base delay puts drk ahead

[Rezeak]

Well u want a THF on AV and it subing DNC for steps and to cap WAR haste is another viable alternative if WAR does have 78.7

Where did u get 78.7% haste tho?

[Jar]

Well u want a THF on AV and it subing DNC for steps and to cap WAR haste is another viable alternative if WAR does have 78.7

Where did u get 78.7% haste tho?

Magic and gear are capped in the math that put WAR attacking 16% slower than DRK
25% + 43.75% + 9.96%= 78.71

i do agree that a pt with just war and a thf/dnc was there that wouldnt bee bad for an alt DD party because its hard to get just DRKs

my grup runs with like 4 drks a few sam and like 5 WAR so that might be something worth looking into for when we zerg PW later going to be fun getting numbers on him :D and naturally ill hand all my numbers out for free to be talked down on by this community <3

[Hayward]

I find it a bit strange that Dark Knights see the job as inferior when it has two weapons that can do very high damage and a third (Great Axe) that doesn't lag far behind. Yes, Razed Ruins has little use for most DRK Weapon Skills, but that's Abyssea. Before I leveled the job myself recently, I've always been amazed by the Dark Knights (the ones who knew how to play the job, not the ones who didn't know they had MP) I've partied with.

In my mind, I see Dark Knight as a job that is no less effective than Warrior or any other melee job. The parser stuff serves only to obscure this.

[Rezeak]

If you refering from the start of the posts Hayward alot of the posts were made before the last resort buff i believe since the last resort buff DRK is easly one of the strongest DDs outside abyssea and we're about to get another boost so there is noway that DRK lacks outside of abyssea when it comes down to DMG.

Inside Abyssea we are lack in the DMG department but honestly this has/will prolly lead to DRK becoming overpowered outside of abyssea. Either way i'm still DRK most of the time when we do abyssea for my LS because i'm one of the main tanks which easily makes up for my lack of DMG.

Fyi Gaxe isn't the way to go on DRK lmao really any DRK using a Axe/Gaxe should be on WAR honestly.

[Taint2]

who would bring a dnc not another WAR?


I think that just about sums it up lol.

[Chriscoffey]

I think that just about sums it up lol.
I stand corrected about Taint being a pee wee herman... bad taint bad.

[Dart]

outside abyssea 90 apoc / caladbolg with the LR buff rapes faces. God I love it so much it reinvigorated the game for me.

[Chriscoffey]

outside abyssea 90 apoc / caladbolg with the LR buff rapes faces. God I love it so much it reinvigorated the game for me.
It helped. I can prove you wrong with my other jobs vs dark with anything you have coming or going but as i said.. proof is in the fact I come show someone it seems. I do agree though caladbolg helped dark get up their damage outside abyssea. I am still waiting to see what SE throws at us in term of alliance fights for 18 people again or if this "easy mode" is the norm. I am waiting to see also how they go about increasing damage potential of the relics and I hope one of those is the ODD increase everyone believes they need to compete with emps now. I guess we all will have to wait and see how this goes.

[Dart]

you're talking to a guy with 2 relics and 5 empy (all the good ones) I can keep up again unless they have a ghorn bard with +2 hands.

[Chriscoffey]

you're talking to a guy with 2 relics and 5 empy (all the good ones) I can keep up again unless they have a ghorn bard with +2 hands.

I hope you don't take too much offense to this but seriously do you know how many times i have heard that and they didn't realize how far back they were. I mentioned before that I knew an apocalypse dark finished @75 telling me the same thing. I had stage 4 apocalypse at the time. We had the same buffs with 2 brds. I typically outparsed him in Ein or anywhere by 10-14%. He used the same logic. I am not saying you don't know what you are doing but to reply that you have that many relic/emps is of very little rebuttal against what people do know or can do if geared correctly.

[Jar]

I hope you don't take too much offense to this but seriously do you know how many times i have heard that and they didn't realize how far back they were. I mentioned before that I knew an apocalypse dark finished @75 telling me the same thing. I had stage 4 apocalypse at the time. We had the same buffs with 2 brds. I typically outparsed him in Ein or anywhere by 10-14%. He used the same logic. I am not saying you don't know what you are doing but to reply that you have that many relic/emps is of very little rebuttal against what people do know or can do if geared correctly.

math bro math

[Chriscoffey]

math bro math

The parse was the math bro math and the parse is listed on a site. That particular parse was about 2 years ago at the very least for the Ein run. When you can start talking to me about critical tiers and their functions at particular levels then maybe you are in my ballpark bud. I think that is the only way in which you can comprehend why war > drk even outside abyssesa.

[Jar]

about 2 years ago

2 year old data is irrelevant lol

[Chriscoffey]

2 year old data is irrelevant lol
It was quite relevant at the time and still applies to what my point is about people lacking a detailed understanding of gear sets and timing. Critical builds are still very much at the forefront of this entire conversation about war and dark which was just as relevant then as it is now. I can see you are stuck in a this mindset to believe your scenario is the end all be all for our discussion. I believe it's best we agree to disagree as you will never take into account anything I could possibly post.

[Jar]

It was quite relevant at the time and still applies to what my point is about people lacking a detailed understanding of gear sets and timing. Critical builds are still very much at the forefront of this entire conversation about war and dark which was just as relevant then as it is now. I can see you are stuck in a this mindset to believe your scenario is the end all be all for our discussion. I believe it's best we agree to disagree as you will never take into account anything I could possibly post.

yeah lets cut Last resorts HUGE buff out of the equation and war might win outside..


oh and l about Ddex values that almost every job will cap outside of abyssea on einherjar mobs with minor Gear changes.. i covered how Crital hits are done like a page ago. <3 if you want a quote i will



Im not outright saying lol HERP DERP DRK> WAR LULZ

im saying that the difference is almost nothing now and in most situations DRK will hold its own if not do better.

Now if you want to keep talking about information that is DOWN RIGHT FUCKING IRRELEVANT go for it.

[Dart]

............/facepalm

[Rezeak]

@Chris

I dunno whats ya point i mean u can keep saying ur wrong or w/e till the cows come home while i agree that some of the math jar presented is a lil flawed it does give a rough idea on how DRK and WAR will perform on AV and that is there both decent as for whats the best ??

Niether it's more about having as many viable DDs for AV as possible (meaning if ya have all WARs or all DRKs u should be able to kill AV)

The Math v parse arguement for zergs they both fail prolly for the same reason that zerg DMG is effected massivly by luck/lag and player skill (prolly a ton of sititional shit too)

Outside AV and abyssea DRK definity has the Edge on WAR because of how powerful Last resort is but that just my opinion.

Not to mention DRK is a the supeior stagger job in Dyna and VW

[Dart]

I haven't fought av since 75 and a few times at 80 cap. Mighty Strikes made war the clear cut winner back then. I'm not sure how much has changed since for av we were always getting SV'd marches. and cata/guillotine generally blowed chunks, and i don't see torcleaver standing a chance in hell against ukko's.

granted that's a fight heavily tilted in war's favor. the sv marches takes away one of drk's advantages, attack speed.

[Chriscoffey]

The problem is everyone in this entire subject matter is right and wrong based upon situations presented. I am saying the generalized idea is that me and taint are typically in an LS which uses efficiency killing jobs for all DD like brds/dncs/cors. Those jobs push DD to having capped attack and capped haste on just about anything without using any 2 hours. I know fully well a dark going in solo can do more than a warrior using LR.

I also know if both have equal buffs that war with uko. that is properly geared for criticals/DA rate will completely annihilate a dark with apocalypse and a bit less with cal. You are taking 1 mob in the entire game and saying well dark doesn't need updated due to a mob that having more attack in bracelet mode gives them the edge throughout the game. That type of thinking is asinine considering that we have came from 18 man alliance fights to what we have now where efficiency is not as desired.

[Dart]

huge difference between getting ghorn + af3+2 hand marches vs not getting them when you compare attack speed vs last resort. (To clarify i mean a normal bard vs top tier march aka ghorn + af3+2 hands). It really adds up over the long run which has been my point from the beginning. If you aren't getting that then drk pulls right up there again (caladbolg drk, apoc sucks still).

attack speed is everything, when its equal yea war destroys everything and i mean everything. It isn't even close.

[Rezeak]

Ignoring AV

Outside 2hr and in general.

It's so complicated it's dumb.

But it comes down to this if ya buff towards WAR ofc WAR will win but it's prolly the same for DRK.

Either way it kinda comes down to this

Does
Mage BRD COR DRK (with march X 2 Chaos + Sam/Tact/Da roll)
beat
Mage BRD COR WAR (with March X2 Blitzer + Chao/THF roll)

for which DD has the most potential (outside 2hr) DMG wise

In reality u need both anyway
VW u need WAR for the WS range and DRK for both the WS and magic.
In Dyna DRK trumps WAR since it covers magic and WS on it's main alone.
... tbc once SE add more hard endgame lol.

[Atoreis]

Lol at this thread and you discussion. WAR in zerg Annihilate DRK completely EVEN with bad marches. 20% faster (assuming 75% haste for war and 80% for DRK) swinging is completely overwhelmed by WAr's DA and 100% crit. blood rage under effect of mighty strikes is a total killer. Ukko will on avg do probably twice the Torc damage. It's not even close.

Also lol at ppl thinking Cala is that much better than Apoc. They are very close with right builds.

[Chriscoffey]

Lol at this thread and you discussion. WAR in zerg Annihilate DRK completely EVEN with bad marches. 20% faster (assuming 75% haste for war and 80% for DRK) swinging is completely overwhelmed by WAr's DA and 100% crit. blood rage under effect of mighty strikes is a total killer. Ukko will on avg do probably twice the Torc damage. It's not even close.

Also lol at ppl thinking Cala is that much better than Apoc. They are very close with right builds.

The people in this thread that are saying dark is better on AV and as such take might strikes out of the factoring due to mutiple kill attempts. I don't care how anyone wants to use situational logic for their arguments in here if a dark is solo compared to a warrior they have a chance. If a dark and warrior are getting equal buffs for what a linkshell used to fall under a good geared critical warrior is eating a dark.

[Jar]

Lol at this thread and you discussion. WAR in zerg Annihilate DRK completely EVEN with bad marches. 20% faster (assuming 75% haste for war and 80% for DRK) swinging is completely overwhelmed by WAr's DA and 100% crit. blood rage under effect of mighty strikes is a total killer. Ukko will on avg do probably twice the Torc damage. It's not even close.

Also lol at ppl thinking Cala is that much better than Apoc. They are very close with right builds.

ANDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD


65 hit and 20% DA is the same extra hits as 54 hits and 30% DA the base hitrate makes up for DA difference and my DRK has 25% not 20

2hour was factored out but if you would like to talk about 2 hours anything that DRK can 2 hour DRK WILL win blood weapon and Souleater are nothing to scoff at.

you wana zerg we will show you what a fuckin zerg has been for YEARS.

[Atoreis]

ANDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD


65 hit and 20% DA is the same extra hits as 54 hits and 30% DA the base hitrate makes up for DA difference and my DRK has 25% not 20

2hour was factored out but if you would like to talk about 2 hours anything that DRK can 2 hour DRK WILL win blood weapon and Souleater are nothing to scoff at.

you wana zerg we will show you what a fuckin zerg has been for YEARS.

souleater have no chance with mighty strikes. Assuming you have 130 damage weapon and avg pdif 2.0 with 40% odd That will be ~500 damage avg (assumign you have blood rage from WAR otherwise much lower) so souleater will add something like +200 for every strike so around 700 total with 430 delay so 97 dps.

WAR with Ukon will be around 145 base damage. Lets assume avg pdif 2 before might strikes so around 2.7 with them ( I might lowering it too much here but I dont have time for advance math now ). Same ODD 40% (sekka 100>200TP at start) 756 avg per swing with blood rage and delay 482 so dps 94.

Now assuming this bad marches and 75% haste for war and 80% for DRK. DRK will swing around 10% more overall so total dps from melee will be around ~13% higher. Number of WS will be the same pretty much and now part where WAR gonna destroy DRK. WS damage

Ukko 3.9 x (~150+79) x 2.7 x 1.49 = 3600 avg
Torc 5.2 x (130+70) x 2 = 2280 avg (200 from souleater)

~60% advantage for WAR. DRK has no chance.

Also all this math and situation is in favor of DRK and it still win drastically.

[StingRay104]

Bacon Mage > DRK. The end of all this nonsense. SE fails so much at making this job what its supposed to be.

[Jar]

75% 80% diff for DRK and war is almost 25% because base delay is diff on the weapons ...

Your pdif math is WAr sided DRK gets more attack and war wont be even close to 2.0 in any situation a zerg will matter

base dmg on Cala will be 131 Ukon will be about 145 because Remption is going to be 150(redemption base damage is 5 more at 90 and if anything the damage diffrence will get bigger putting Ukon BELOW 145) and apoc will be 154

ANNNNNNNNd i stoped reading after that becuase i stoped caring Less mistakes next time please math isnt that hard kiddo <3

[Atoreis]

75% 80% diff for DRK and war is almost 25% because base delay is diff on the weapons ...

Your pdif math is WAr sided DRK gets more attack and war wont be even close to 2.0 in any situation a zerg will matter

base dmg on Cala will be 131 Ukon will be about 145 because Remption is going to be 150(redemption base damage is 5 more at 90 and if anything the damage diffrence will get bigger putting Ukon BELOW 145) and apoc will be 154

ANNNNNNNNd i stoped reading after that becuase i stoped caring Less mistakes next time please math isnt that hard kiddo <3

Its funny because your numbers actually favors WAR even more...


65 hit and 20% DA is the same extra hits as 54 hits and 30% DA

65*1.2=78 54*1.3=70
78x700=54600 70*756=52920
Thats only 3% advantage for DRK vs 13% from my math ( like I said my math was in favor of DRK..)

[Jar]

Its funny because your numbers actually favors WAR even more...



65*1.2=78 54*1.3=70
78x700=54600 70*756=52920
Thats only 3% advantage for DRK vs 13% from my math ( like I said my math was in favor of DRK..)

so telling you the Base damage Pdif and DA rate of WAR is smaller than you said made it stronger

also capped Pdif for 2 handed weapons is 2.2 <3 just saw that in your first post

i dont think you know what + and - even fuckin mean ... gtfo of this forum

[Dart]

i believe that i summed up this thread very well and in layman's terms even. Why is this still going on?

[Jar]

because people are retarded and post and dont read anything other than OP or come crying when there friend gets told off.

[Taint2]

It's better than not having Tactical Parry.. lol

Debatable at best