Was my leader wrong to do this?

[geekgirl101]

My group leader assured me he does this all the time and that other alliances are cool with this. Last night a party of us were in an alliance to go farm lights and once we had enough to then go do some VNMs. From what I remember my group leader saying he told the alliance leader we just needed lights and we would stick around for the VNMs, and the alliance leader was cool with it. It was gonna be a long-term party, however the alliance leader decided to leave near the very beginning and while my party was branched out doing some easy NM farming and frogs for TE's the rest of the alliance decided to head out to farm xp on worms. After we had enough lights my group leader thanked the alliance for the lights and we dissolved our group to go and do some VNM farming on our own since we weren't there to xp. I was a little shocked at what he did, so I asked him if he was supposed to do that and he assured me that it was.

However the new alliance leader didn't think that, she was a friend of mine and we'd been doing things together for a little while and just starting out to make a good friend bond. She told me what my group leader did was, in more nicer terms, a terrible thing to do and was just there to farm lights, and despite me trying to assure her that was the norm she was very angry and resulted in our friendship dissolving.

Was what he did ok or was it a wrong thing to do? I'm very confused now and have lost a good friend and I don't know whether she was overreacting or if she was right.

[Zaknafein]

As long as your leader was up front about only going to cap lights I don't see that being douchey. Problem arose when the alliance leader bounced, and the new leader might not have know of that arrangement?

[Runespider]

If your group joined an XP alliance knowing full well you were just there to leech others work and then leave so the new leader would have to fill the large void your group left then yes it's very rude. How can you not see that? You basically did nothing for them because now they have to relight the large group of replacing players.

If what you state was the norm XP would be impossible because nobody would bother to make lights, they would just leech an XP alliance and then dump it. Maybe I'm just not as thick skinned as some but as lazy as I can be I would not do this, it's incredibly rude.

If it's a prior arrangement then it should be stated in party for everyone to see, if I had to take over an XP alliance and 1/3 of the group did that I would be pretty annoyed too.

[geekgirl101]

Yeah I think that was the problem, the new alliance leader didn't know of the arrangement and was under the assumption we were in for an xp party and not a lights/VNM party. I can understand how she must've thought we were leeching for lights and then ditching the alliance once lights were capped and leaving her team short. Personally I didn't know of the arrangement until after we did the deed, otherwise I'd have told her we were light/VNM farming and not xp farming. I even failed to notice my group leader announce when we entered in /p we were light farming and before we left he announced again in /p we were gonna frog burn for time and some guy said "ok", he FC'd 2hr's worth and then we left.

I wasn't sure if this was normal behaviour for a party with intentions of farming lights to do something like this. It's only after some thought that I've realised that it's actually a good way of light farming, providing the rest of the alliance know we're there to farm lights and then go our separate ways.

Dang...I feel bad now. No wonder she was so mad at me if she didn't know that's what we were supposed to be doing. Thanks for helping me clarify what went on last night, the whole ordeal cost me a nights' of sleep worrying. I can finally sleep...that is once I attone with my friend about what happened, hoping she hasn't blacklisted me for life.

[Runespider]

My group leader assured me he does this all the time and that other alliances are cool with this.

When I go out with my friends and we don't have much money I tell them we can just steal some from random people along the way, I am sure to tell them that its ok and everyone everywhere is cool with it though. Just cause your group leader says it's cool and everyone is ok with it that does not make it so, ***. >_>

Building your own lights isn't even hard, he is lazy ***.

[Annahya]

When I go out with my friends and we don't have much money I tell them we can just steal some from random people along the way, I am sure to tell them that its ok and everyone everywhere is cool with it though. Just cause your group leader says it's cool and everyone is ok with it that does not make it so, ***. >_>

Building your own lights isn't even hard, he is lazy ***.

While I agree that it is not hard to farm lights - this is not an appropriate analogy, and the assertions made are inaccurate.

If the lead in quetion has successfully made arrangments in the past, with relative frequency, then there is nothing wrong with his/her statement.

To the OPs question: I think the "blame" in this instance falls equally on the departing alliance lead for not passing the arrangment on to their replacement, as well as on your party lead not confirming, quickly, that the new lead is aware of what is going to happen. While I certainly understand how this situation would make you feel bad - I likely would too, on some level - I don't think you, personally, did anything wrong (based solely on the description you provided).

I would likely contact this friend and explain your concern, apologize that you were part of something that upset them, and ask for their understanding that if you knew they were unaware (or were more aware of the situation yourself), you would have said something. If they remain upset with you after this, then you are likely better off not being friends with someone who would drop you over a simple misunderstanding.

My two-cents, anyway.
~Anna

[Ravenmore]

Its not different then poeple capping lights when scars came out to go solo farm base feet. She over reacted, since its only exp and since you were even killing for exp. It would have ended no different then if your leader told her from the start. On top of it really 2 dds and a healer is enough to farm TEs and make great exp.

[Runespider]

Its not different then poeple capping lights when scars came out to go solo farm base feet. She over reacted, since its only exp and since you were even killing for exp. It would have ended no different then if your leader told her from the start. On top of it really 2 dds and a healer is enough to farm TEs and make great exp.

Have you joined many pickup xp groups? I'd say you are extremely lucky if 1-2 have any atmas at all, try what you just said with 2 DD and a mage with no atmas. Also it's kinda different for 1-2 people to do it than 1/3 of the alliance (some possibly on hard to rep jobs) and even worse to do it to a friend, basically making them replace your group that just bailed on them...this aside from the fact they pretty much did nothing for the xp alliance at all since once they capped lights they bailed. I would of at least stayed an hour or so to give something back to the people I leeched off.

This is no different than joining a pickup group for seals and bailing right after you get that 1 seal you needed, nevermind you are the only healer or on an important proc job. You can rep them but it's still rude and selfish and even worse to do it to a friend.

[Annahya]

Have you joined many pickup xp groups? I'd say you are extremely lucky if 1-2 have any atmas at all, try what you just said with 2 DD and a mage with no atmas. Also it's kinda different for 1-2 people to do it than 1/3 of the alliance (some possibly on hard to rep jobs) and even worse to do it to a friend, basically making them replace your group that just bailed on them...this aside from the fact they pretty much did nothing for the xp alliance at all since once they capped lights they bailed. I would of at least stayed an hour or so to give something back to the people I leeched off.

This is no different than joining a pickup group for seals and bailing right after you get that 1 seal you needed, nevermind you are the only healer or on an important proc job. You can rep them but it's still rude and selfish and even worse to do it to a friend.

This argument holds weight in a situation where there was not an existing agreement - which in this instance, there supposedly was. Also, the OP did not do it to a friend, the party lead and previous alliance lead did it to the new alliance lead. Nothing about this states whether or not the new alliance lead was friends with the people "at fault" here. I suppose a compassionate gesture could have been done by the OP, such as leaving the party and returning to the alliance, but if all things considered are true, then this would have been charitable, but not socially required.

Again, your analogy does not work. It would be appropriate if we were discussing a seal party in which there was an understanding that the leaving member would only be staying long enough to get their own seals. Now, not many seal parties would like this arrangement, but if they agreed to it and invited said player, they really have no room to complain when said player leaves. But, as I said previously, if the leader of this party changes, it is the responsiblity of the outgoing leader to explain any deals like this to their replacement - so that if the replacement lead wants to address the issue they can.

While you may disagree with this practice, you cannot lose sight of the fact that in this situation there was (supposedly) a pre-existing agreement that changes the dynamic. In many (not all) situations, I would disagree with this practice, and would not have included members in my alliance who intended to do such; but in the situation given, the alliance leader chose to include them, (allegedly) understanding this would come to pass.

All things considered, there was no wrong-doing in leaving - only in how that leaving was handled (including the new alliance lead).

[Ravenmore]

Have you joined many pickup xp groups? I'd say you are extremely lucky if 1-2 have any atmas at all, try what you just said with 2 DD and a mage with no atmas. Also it's kinda different for 1-2 people to do it than 1/3 of the alliance (some possibly on hard to rep jobs) and even worse to do it to a friend, basically making them replace your group that just bailed on them...this aside from the fact they pretty much did nothing for the xp alliance at all since once they capped lights they bailed. I would of at least stayed an hour or so to give something back to the people I leeched off.

This is no different than joining a pickup group for seals and bailing right after you get that 1 seal you needed, nevermind you are the only healer or on an important proc job. You can rep them but it's still rude and selfish and even worse to do it to a friend.

Its exp people know what they are getting into from the start. Also wasn't that good of a friend if the other player took it out on him instead of the party leader who thought they had a agreement, or the other player was trying to guilt trip the OP after agreeing to the arrangment. Read the OP rune the OP thought they had a agreement, which for all we know she also agreed to it but wanted to try to guilt her friend into ditching his group to come back to a EXP party. On top of the way the OP stated they weren't even in xp range so all they were doing was farming lights. So out of the 10 other people they can't keep going on scars zone trash they have more problems then a few people leaving.

[geekgirl101]

She took it out on me because I backed up what my leader was doing and told her that I was horribly confused and didn't understand why she was upset with us. She must've thought I was being a right <insertprofanitynamehere> and broke our friendship based on that. Really hoping I can work this out with her once she's out of /away status.

[Greatguardian]

Really it sounds like the person who's upset at you is the one being completely unreasonable.

EXP alliances are fairly worthless, and teaming up for lights is absolutely standard fare and not a huge deal. When everyone gets the same lights whether there's 1 person solo or 18 people around, there's absolutely nothing lost by sharing lights.

The only person even remotely at fault here is the original Alliance lead for not informing their replacement of the arrangement. The only slight that was made towards the new lead was a lack of advance notice. Leaving once you have what lights you need is perfectly acceptable. It is not like there were people lining up to take that party slot that would have stayed longer. And if there were, then your leaving would not have caused a problem at all anyways as they would have had people ready to replace you.

In a nutshell? Chick's spiteful and has anger issues. Absolutely not even worth trying to mend that bridge. No one did anything wrong. EXP is super serious business. etc

[geekgirl101]

You're right Greatguardian. I tried to get back to her, sent her a couple of tells through the day but got no response, finally sent her a message explaining what really went on. She finally gets back to me very aggressively telling me she felt she got used and didn't believe us and didn't care that the friendship was now over. That really wasn't how I wanted it to end. :(

This teaches me an important lesson, always double check when switching alliance leaders that the new one is fully aware of any special arrangements.

[Darkren]

is it that hard to cap your own lights?

[Runespider]

Building your own lights isn't even hard, he is lazy ***.

Douche isn't a bad swear word is it? D:

Douche means shower in French you know! I was just calling him a lazy shower!.. >.>

[Bubeeky]

I've been in several similar situations to this and it usually works out pretty well, several seperate groups get together so that everyone gets the benefits of the lights and TE, but each party is doing its own thing...only difference is that everyone in the alliance knows what's going on, so that's the only thing that I would say was wrong in this situation, that it sounds like the agreement didn't include the rest of the alliance.

PS. to the OP, you sound like a really nice person, so I would say don't worry about that other girl, the one that broke the friendship off...I'm sure you'll make tons of friends in game that will be bigger and better than that :) Good Luck :)

[Nawesemo]

I have an Opinion!!!

But No One Will Like It.

Friends don't get pissed off over getting left behind if they weren't able to participate meaningfully, and should understand.

Friends don't /blist other friends... they spam each others mailboxes, chat with ransom demands for apologies or your not getting your Okote back, fill each others delivery box with single unstackable items, stacks of crystals and randomly invite to D2 one another for Demeaning behavior like what you described.

Friends are Friends for a reason.. everyone else, well, is just everyone else.
sooooo yeah take that for what you will.

[Alhanelem]

You don't need an alliance to farm lights... what this amounts to is the EXP group was being used and abused.

[Nawesemo]

I dunno, I guess it just boils down to what kind of player you are, I've seen some pretty aweful GREAT players on jobs that are not their mains in exp parties, I've also seen players that refuse to let themselves be that GREAT aweful player, and skill and gear as well as their wallets and time will allow for the jobs before they exp on them.

There are those that 1/2 the effort, and 1/2 the gear gets them by and there is nothing wrong with that if that's how they roll and the can get by like that.. becuase lets face it we were all there at one point. but.. if you can't pull your weight by putting in the time to be able to pull your weight... ... ya know?

I think this is more along the lines of "I didn't get the 20 levels I wanted and only got 2" and being pissed about it.

My point in my comment above was.... would a friend really be all that worked up over a bit of free experience in an exp party ( becuase they did get "some") that as far as they knew .. broke becuase other people wanted to go do vnm and apparently they themselves didn't?

[Glamdring]

your alliance leader was an ass IF he didn't inform the other group that he intended to bail before he started. If he did, then yes, perfectly cool. There is nothing wrong with grouping with other players to farm your lights. Sure you can do it solo, and some jobs do it quite well. but if an alliance can get a group capped and 300+ minutes of time in 30 minutes why wouldn't you? You just need to have the understanding going in that that IS the plan.

[geekgirl101]

is it that hard to cap your own lights?

Not really, but we were kinda doing a favour for them and vice versa by capping lights pretty quickly than doing it in a smaller team. We got our azures pretty quickly for TE's, they got their azures pretty quickly for TE's. Means more time for them capping gold for xp and more time for us spent hunting VNMs. Sort of a win/win situation for all of us, however it meant they would then be 6 people short. It was unfortunate there was miscommunication so that they'd be prepared for our departure with a backup plan to fill in where we left off. I think had my party leader spoken directly to the new alliance leader about the arrangement to make sure she was completely aware of what was arranged rather than some random guy saying "ok" when he double-checked what we were going to do then it could've avoided this whole drama.

I'm satisfied now in knowing that what we did wasn't wrong. I had my concerns at the beginning but now I'm more comfy about it. I've lost a friend for no good reason, and now we're on each others' blacklist as a result of her being too angry and unreasonable.

[Greatguardian]

You don't need an alliance to farm lights... what this amounts to is the EXP group was being used and abused.

Abused how? It's free lights in exchange for free kills for a while. Any group hunting VNMs is likely to be light years ahead of your average Aurorexp alliance, so it's not like they aren't contributing anything. And how are they hurting the EXP group exactly? Leaving after they've made the exchange? So what?

There are only two possible situations occurring after they leave:
1) The VNM group left, leaving a gap in the Alliance that the leader was unable to fill. In this case, how likely was it that the same gap would have been filled had the VNM group not been there in the first place? Considering the original setup was made with a leader who knew they would be leaving, it is not as if the only white mages left with the VNM group or something equally ridiculous. If they are 12/18 after the VNM group left and are unable to fill those slots, they would have been 12/18 sitting in Jeuno anyways.

2) The VNM group was using slots that could have been used for contributing EXP members. In which case, as soon as the VNM group left, those members could take the slots and everyone would be happy.

I really don't see an issue here. Could the VNM group have farmed lights on their own? Sure. Is it more convenient to team up with people for light generation in Abyssea? Always. It just is. Does that mean the group was "abused" in this case? No way. They lost absolutely nothing. There was no opportunity cost that they gave up and couldn't immediately recuperate if it did in fact exist. They did not receive fewer lights because they teamed up.

Was the benefit mutual? Yes. Was the exchange more beneficial to one party than another? Sure, you could make that case. But were there any negative effects on the EXP alliance? No way. Instead of grabbing 6 more people from Jeuno, the Alliance lead had to do so from Abyssea while actively gaining EXP. If anything, that's a boon. The EXP alliance lost absolutely nothing, either directly or indirectly, from the exchange. The leader was simply bitter and lazy.

Edit: Hell, most EXP alliances I've watched have been utterly incompetent and unable to even cap their own Azure lights. If the VNM group helped them cap Azure, they did them a monumental favor.

[Glamdring]

GG, I think the bitch is that they then have to refill those slots, thus rebuilding the party, wasting time and possibly having to replace members with new peeps--that DON'T have their lights done, meaning they just "wasted" the time they spent capping. Granted, if they had agreed to the arrangement in the 1st place they didn't lose anything, but the difference is that they would have built their smaller "remainder group" with the loss of the VNM hunters already planned for. So if the only healer, etc. was in the VNM group they would have brought someone to fill that pt slot. It's not a biggie, and a standard pt is plenty capable of XPing in aby, even if they are Atma/gear/abyssite deficient, but if they thought the PLAN was that the entire alliance was an XP pt, then they have a legitimate gripe.

[Greatguardian]

If it was honestly difficult for the leader to replace those slots in the field, then they would have just sat in Jeuno for another hour anyways. They lost absolutely nothing. It just boils down to leaders (and randoms in general) being extremely lazy.

There is absolutely no need for a full 18 in an EXP alliance. One half-decent DD with 2 atmas and gear that isn't total asscrap can outdamage 17 of your average EXP party patrons combined. I really have absolutely zero pity for groups that are so inept as to require a full 18 to function.

[geekgirl101]

I think I ended up being the only whm in the entire alliance. They had one in one of the other 2 groups, but at some point the guy left and I don't think there was another healer as I heard them screaming for heals at one point. I reckon the frustration of not having any more healers at their side of the map and me leaving added to the drama which is probably why she took it out on me, not only having been her friend but having left her without any healers to efficiently farm xp and feeling let down because she expected us to be there for the same reason she was.

[Ravenmore]

Still not your problem, she still invested no effort in the forming of the alli to start with. I find it hard to think that there wasn't at least one other person in the party that was /rdm or /whm.

It really goes back to a real friend would of laughed it off and if the party did fall apart geuss what head back to jeuno and wait the what 5 mins till the next exp shout. Its not like the old days when the brd would fake DC only to come back as soon as you disband if your not getting 25k a hour, or the JP only brds, rdms of the old bird camp days.

[Nawesemo]

Its not like the old days when the brd would fake DC only to come back as so as you disband if your not getting 25k a hour, or the JP only brds, rdms of the old bird camp days.

huh!? WTF...er.. o that's right, I was still blowing up bst pets in Bibiki bay for 5k exp/hr.... /cry:mad:

[Ravenmore]

huh!? WTF...er.. o that's right, I was still blowing up bst pets in Bibiki bay for 5k exp/hr.... /cry:mad:

What no pudding face <^.^>

[Dieth]

Hi! I'm the guy who did "/p thx for the time & lights" "/acmd leave" to make all this happen.
Here's a recap of what happened or atleast my side.

I asked the Valfore the alliance lead for a 6 man party spot in his Exp group that he was shouting about. I said we'd farm azure & pearl, and TE and then break off.

He then invited me to the Alliance.

At the maw about 2-3 minutes before we entered this was roughly the party chat.

Sonkei: back
Dieth: WAR90/NIN45
Dieth: come nin/war for full red
Valfore: what do you need red for?
Dieth: after lights & TE built my pt will break off to farm Briareus
Sonkei: otw NIN
Valfore: ok

my pt NINx2 WHM WAR BRD BLM other parties are Random AFK melees atleast 2 WHM and a RDM.

NINx2 & WHM went to farm VNM for upgrades & pearl
BLM went to farm Azure, unsure of if they went to VNM group or worm party after
WAR & BRD(this is both me) Went to Worms, with the main alliance

After the party starts up a random Goldbox appears with briareus giant NMs pop items not KI.

Valfore: you should lot that if you're gonna farm the briareus NMs
Dieth: was just gonna ask

I proceed to lot uncontested on all 3 on Briareus giant pops w/o being questioned by anyone.

During this time, I believe the two WHM and RDM I mentioned from the beginning left, or went AFK. There was a BLM and my BRD left over trying to cure this alliance. Suffice to say, there was death everywhere.

Later, the original Ally leader has left now.

Dieth: going to cleave frogs for TE then leaving
Gaia******: ok
*(please post if you wish to be further associated with this mess!!)

Went to frogs w/ about 160minutes, cleaved up to ~340 minutes, then well, you know what happened from there.

To Pipps I'm so, so, very sorry.

[geekgirl101]

Hey it's no problem Dieth, wasn't your fault. There was just some pretty bad misinformings and she overreacted badly. I just had to ask though...just to make sure what we did wasn't so wrong for her to react like that in a hopes to rebuild that friendship.

[Glamdring]

yep, looks like you said it from the start, no prob there. XP leader seems to have gotten the PUG from hell phenom. If you can't depend on your peeps the pt is dead.

[Nawesemo]

soooo the leeches got mad they couldn't leech anymore!?!

[Meyi]

I join parties for lights all the time.

To compensate I generally stay a little longer than I need to to burn some things down for their xp. Abyssea XP really isn't that hard and I don't understand why so many people treat parties as if they're taking on Absolute Virtue.

[Runespider]

All this time i've been building my own lights, I had no idea it was generally considered ok to build lights in an Aby party and just leave.. at least we all now know this is the best and most accepted way of building lights I guess..

[Zaknafein]

Abyssea xp alliances are not a contractual agreement. Your helping build their lights just as much as they helped you. If they can't find reps for people who leave (which is doubtful) they should be able to kill w/e the xp mob is with 12 people. Otherwise they are a complete joke. As long as it is stated up front that people are getting lights built to go do <insert plan of action here) then there should be no problems.

tldr: less leeches + more contributor's, and the # of people in the alliance is far from a required 18.