Why does Retaliation counters gain TP but not MNK's counter?

[Paksenarrion]

As a main job MNK that attended Fanfest 2007, when they announced Retaliation and said the counters would gain TP, I was in the crowd of people that booed. I have never understood why MNKs, who have had the ability to counter for like always, and a job ability to boost that rate at the sacrifice of defense, have not been given TP on their counters.

The only thought I have for why is that it's because MNK's Counter is always active, since it's a job trait. If that's the case, I think that when Counterstance is active, a MNK should gain TP on their counters. They're sacrificing a huge amount of defense to have that ability active. WAR, on the other hand, sacrifices movement speed. Because the WAR is going to be moving around so much when s/he's being clobbered.

So essentially, I'm just asking for TP gain on counters, and failing that, TP gain on counters when Counterstance is active.

Before anyone asks, yes, I know MNKs already gain TP fast. I'm greedy. =D

[Vazerus]

MNK counters completely negate damage, while WAR still takes the hit, then does a counter-attack. I will agree that Retaliation really gave WAR a huge boost when they have hate. With zerk/aggressor, they will be hit close to 95% of the time too, and for a lot of damage, meanwhile MNK is getting hit a little less than half the time for said lot of damage.

If the dev team did consider adding TP to MNK counters, I would assume it would be in the form of Tactical Counter, only granting a couple TP and not an entire swing's worth. Anything more would be absolutely broken, imo.

[Paksenarrion]

I guess I wasn't 100% knowledgeable about what I was arguing about, didn't realize they still took damage.

But the rest of the information you gave still makes me want to keep my point. WAR has those ways to ensure they get hit, and Counter relies on getting hit first (I believe it's last priority in check?). I'd be fine with a couple TP per Counter.

[Leonlionheart]

MNK gains tp pretty slow compared to two-handers actually. (MNK/WAR maximum time to 100% at capped haste: 23.8, WAR/SAM maximum time to 100% at capped haste: 9.6s)

But then, MNK focuses more on TP rounds or "white damage" rather than WS. (as in that's where most of MNK's damage comes from)

However Counter+Counterstance+AF2 feet is already 25~35% more counter rate than retaliation, making the white damage you actually gain from countering much more significant than what WAR gains from retaliation. Plus the fact that you don't take damage during a counter kind of solidifies the fact that counter is good as is. Counter keeps the job at a high survivability standpoint, where as WAR has next to NO survivability.

Tactical Counter as a JT in the future? Possibly. I don't think anyone would argue with 2~3 TP a counter.

[Doombringer]

yah it cuts both ways. i'm sure every monk wishes they got tp from countering.


but i know i myself have wished that the mob hadn't killed me even though i retaliated it a bunch of times >.>


so i dunno that it really needs much fixing. the issue with tactical counter vs tactical parry, is a mnk can counter way more often than a nin can parry. i think mnk can get up to like 70%? more with spharai. also a parry deals no damage.

[Akenara]

Yea I completely agree with counters giving TP being very over powered. I would not be surprised to see a form of tactical counter in future updates.

We already have tactical guard which is not quite the same thing but it is a form of defensive TP gain.

Back in '05 and '06 mnks always dreamed of being able to tank like they do today, even if it is really only viable inside abyssea due to the massive refresh on the whm and hp+ on the mnk.

Further enhancing the ability to tank with TP on counter attacks seems to be a likely addition in the future.

Lets not forget using counterstance is still risky mnk/war. For mnk/nin its pretty standard inside and outside abyssea

[Ladycandygem]

My only request for Counter would be for it to be checked before shadows.

[Cursed]

My only request for Counter would be for it to be checked before shadows.

its like saying i wish i could get my food in my belly before taking a bite. can't happen unless you hire a surgeon.

[Taint2]

Lets not forget using counterstance is still risky mnk/war. For mnk/nin its pretty standard inside and outside abyssea


I always think its silly when MNKs/NIN and use counterstance. All you do is open yourself up to more damage from TP moves. Perfect counter alone is enough to keep shadows up at all times.

[Karbuncle]

I always think its silly when MNKs/NIN and use counterstance. All you do is open yourself up to more damage from TP moves. Perfect counter alone is enough to keep shadows up at all times.

That depends completely on what you're fighting.

Take Gamayun for Example, She'll eat your shadows like no ones business then proceed to rape you. Seeing a MNK try to tank without putting up counterstance is like Pulling teeth when you're the WHM.

I'd rather cure bomb after a strong TP move than Cure bomb every 2-3 attack rounds thanks to no Counter-rate and the MNK eating every attack, :(.

Plus you waste a lot of Damage putting up shadows, in most cases you're better off /war and counter-stance face-tanking.

(In abyssea of course, If you meant elsewhere sorry!)

[Taint2]

Plus you waste a lot of Damage putting up shadows, in most cases you're better off /war and counter-stance face-tanking.

(In abyssea of course, If you meant elsewhere sorry!)


I guess thats my point if you are counter tanking why not just go /war.

[Greatguardian]

Mnk/Nin is a decent compromise for things that aren't complete trash, yet aren't AV. I'll use it if I'm fighting Alfard, or Pantokrator. I don't fulltime shadows, though. That's a huge drop in DPS. I just fulltime counterstance and then cast Ni whenever it's applicable (inc TP move, single-target spell, or when I have to turn).

[Caketime]

its like saying i wish i could get my food in my belly before taking a bite. can't happen unless you hire a surgeon.

I happen to know a guy that performs discount surgery. Want me to give him a call?