The real problem with PLD

[Inafking]

It's quite simple. PLD is supposed to be the best defensive job in the game and it takes the best gear in the game to be better than a blink tank for staying alive. So square needs to give PLD better spells/gear/abilities/traits for mitigating damage. They're so worried about overpowering it that they make it useless.

On another note, PLD could really use it's own provoke so people can double down /war or still hold hate /dnc.

Between those two things, that should fix PLD.

[Zagen]

The real problem with PLD is PLDs who don't know what's wrong with it...


It's quite simple. PLD is supposed to be the best defensive job in the game and it takes the best gear in the game to be better than a blink tank for staying alive. So square needs to give PLD better spells/gear/abilities/traits for mitigating damage. They're so worried about overpowering it that they make it useless

Any job in the game can tank in Abyssea and old content the difference is the jobs that deal more damage doing it excel as tanks because 1) damage dealt is currently the best way to hold hate 2) more damage dealt leads to dead monster sooner thus leading to less damage taken

PLD has Voidwalker NMs to tank. Abyssea is easy mode stop dreaming of tanking in it as PLD and being useful besides Swift Blade procs because your group didn't wait until Blunt time to allow the MNK and WHM to get blue !!.


On another note, PLD could really use it's own provoke so people can double down /war or still hold hate /dnc.

Provoke does nothing useful when the DDs are capping/recapping hate just by hitting the damn monster.

Read this: http://kanican.livejournal.com/13235.html before you try and "fix" PLD because you need to learn how hate works first.

[Inafking]

I have no problems holding hate. The problem I have is that I die when I do. lol

[Zagen]

I have no problems holding hate. The problem I have is that I die when I do. lol

Get a better WHM has nothing to do with PLD.

[Inafking]

Get a better WHM


(No more MP!)

Even the best WHM can't make up for too much to heal.

[Zagen]

Even the best WHM can't make up for too much to heal.

My WHM/BLM is capable of keeping a NIN/WAR and a WAR/NIN healed without any additional support. Sure she needs a better sub but hey my friend and I like D2s and Stuns. The point is she doesn't run out of MP before a mob dies in Abyssea. Last night we took down Karkadann (http://lootnscoot.heckgames.com/karkadann-death) with this setup.

That same WHM kept my WAR/SAM alive while killing Tablilla.

We got an extra WHM and BLM and took down Hadhayosh as well. The only reason we had 2 WHMs for Hadhayosh was because we expected Meteor > Ecliptic Meteor or Meteor > Meteor would be taxing on Cure V/VI recast timers and we didn't care for pulling it all the way to the lake/ledge near #04. Neither of the WHMs dropped below 50% MP during that fight.

With Cure Potency up to +50%, WHM +2 legs restoring 5% MP, and MM Atma your WHM shouldn't be running out of MP before a monster dies...

[Inafking]

With Cure Potency up to +50%, WHM +2 legs restoring 5% MP, and MM Atma your WHM shouldn't be running out of MP before a monster dies...

This again assumes you have the good stuff, which most people don't.

[Zagen]

This again assumes you have the good stuff, which most people don't.

I knew you'd think that way guess what she started with 20% potency and did just fine while we farmed seals to get her +1 head/legs and while farming Sobek she got +2 legs. Currently she has 28% Cure Potency, far from the 50% that can be attained.

My MNK/DNC/NIN/THF started Pink and slowly got upgraded my WAR was horribly geared for a long time I mean I was toting K.Osode, Hermes' Sandals, Emp +1 legs I got as rot before I even finished WAR, Dusk Gloves, W. Turban. You don't need great gear to be functional as a job. There are very little NMs that are hard and the ones that are hard don't "need" to be farmed right away. That means you can kill other NMs to improve gear before ever wasting time on the hard ones.

[Inafking]

You're still asuming people have something to start with or that there is enough easily attainable gear and atma. That is simply not the case. I have the deaths to prove it.

[Zagen]

You're still asuming people have something to start with or that there is enough easily attainable gear and atma. That is simply not the case. I have the deaths to prove it.

Our WHM started with a light staff and noble's tunic if your WHM can't get the accepted basics then find a better WHM... She didn't get MM atma until after getting the head +1 done and her MP was enough to keep my friend and I alive.

[Greatguardian]

You're still asuming people have something to start with or that there is enough easily attainable gear and atma. That is simply not the case. I have the deaths to prove it.

All atma and gear is easily obtainable. WHM atma and gear are exceedingly easier to obtain than most other people's atma/gear anyways. Your WHM is throwing out crappy excuses. But that's understandable. It's a lot easier for a Whm to blame their gear/atma than to admit that they suck and need to improve.

[Karbuncle]

All atma and gear is easily obtainable. WHM atma and gear are exceedingly easier to obtain than most other people's atma/gear anyways. Your WHM is throwing out crappy excuses. But that's understandable. It's a lot easier for a Whm to blame their gear/atma than to admit that they suck and need to improve.

Seems like its a lot easier for many people to do that >_>

[Nakts]

get a pup for main heal :P

[Urteil]

PLD seems to suffer from the same problem as DRK.

You need the best of the best gear to really be relevant. While gear does matter I'm talking about Ochain and Apocalypse.

For most people that's not 'good' gear but simply the fevered dream of a mad man.


Gear should be matter, but these jobs lack so much in their mechanics and abilities, its very very unsettling.

[Mordanthos]

dude my pld takes like 0 dmg whatsoever inside and outside abyssea, its pretty retarded. Your doing something horribly wrong. Most bosses hit my pld between 0-100 inside abyssea, and same outside abyssea. With atmas i have 40 HP regen, and 99 percent of the time, my WHM is bored because all they have to do is cast Regen IV and i stay full, and even if i do take dmg, i encourage them to let me heal myself just for the hate. I can keep myself alive with Cure IV alone, and IDk what your deal is, but PLD fricken pwns in the tanking department. The only problem with it, is that enmity is too easily capped by other jobs in a single attack, that actually tanking on a pld is a headache. With the new changes to Cover though, i fricken love it, and merited it, it appears to reduce the cover targets enmity over time. And 800+dmg Holy's are fricken awesome.

[Zagen]

dude my pld takes like 0 dmg whatsoever inside and outside abyssea, its pretty retarded. Your doing something horribly wrong. Most bosses hit my pld between 0-100 inside abyssea, and same outside abyssea. With atmas i have 40 HP regen, and 99 percent of the time, my WHM is bored because all they have to do is cast Regen IV and i stay full, and even if i do take dmg, i encourage them to let me heal myself just for the hate. I can keep myself alive with Cure IV alone, and IDk what your deal is, but PLD fricken pwns in the tanking department. The only problem with it, is that enmity is too easily capped by other jobs in a single attack, that actually tanking on a pld is a headache. With the new changes to Cover though, i fricken love it, and merited it, it appears to reduce the cover targets enmity over time. And 800+dmg Holy's are fricken awesome.

POIDH (The taking 0 dmg not your 800+ Holys which when Atma are set for it can do almost 3k damage)

Seriously because either you're eyeballing horribly or embellishing your numbers by a lot. That being said it still doesn't solve the fact a DD can tank AND deal more damage than a PLD in Abyssea thus making PLD useless as it can "tank" but not deal more damage than a DD.

[Inafking]

If you're not taking damage, it's because you have the stuff for it. I'm saying the stuff for it isn't avalible enough to make the job useful wich is why all the PLDs I've ever seen die while trying to fight NMs.

[cidbahamut]

Oh my goodness, you mean gearing yourself appropriately actually yields results!?

brb, expanding my wardrobe to something other than just Dinner Jacket.

[Bumbeen]

What's with this thread and others like it. How come people can't realize that pld is of no use because there's nothing in abyssea hard enough to need it?

[Ravenmore]

If you're not taking damage, it's because you have the stuff for it. I'm saying the stuff for it isn't avalible enough to make the job useful wich is why all the PLDs I've ever seen die while trying to fight NMs.

Last time I checked pd could sub nin too, wait like they did at 75 cap on anything that mattered outside of JoL. Really the atma you get from windy nation missions and ASA that is 10 tic, with /rdm and nobles thats a easy 14 tic refresh with atmas that you theres a good chance you already have. I seen 4 shouts for MM fight in the past 3 days from different groups. You can even go in the zone and see if there is a group there killing it and ask to join for the atma or offer a pop in exchange. Basicly suck less get off your butt.

Only reason people don't take pld to tank is mnks, nin, wars can do it and kill faster. On top of nin and war can cover all red procs if your going after zone bosses, emp weapon items what ever you'll have them any way.

They did make a event for pld to come back into the tanking role, voidwatcher. Yes right now the rewards are not good enough to get people out of abyssea but give it time.

[Inafking]

Sub NIN only works when you have the evasion to back it up. That also leaves you without provoke. All the refresh in the world does not matter if you keep getting hit for 300.

All the people I talk to in game agree with me, only here on troll central do I get any argument about this.

[Zagen]

Sub NIN only works when you have the evasion to back it up. That also leaves you without provoke. All the refresh in the world does not matter if you keep getting hit for 300.

All the people I talk to in game agree with me, only here on troll central do I get any argument about this.

Sub NIN is only for evasion tanks? Holy crap tell that to the PLD/NIN HNM Tanks of 2005-2008ish(maybe later than that kinda left HNM scene by then) or the WAR/NIN tanks of today who serve as a Red !! Proc, DD, and Tank.

I'm glad you have people who welcome your PLD and are accepting of you tanking on PLD for them, that however doesn't change the fact that for the majority of the community PLD is an unacceptable tank outside of Voidwatch because other jobs can do what PLD offers and more.

[Inafking]

other jobs can do what PLD offers and more.

Right, which is why they need better gear and abilites for damage mitigation.

[Zagen]

Right, which is why they need better gear and abilites for damage mitigation.
You don't get it... those jobs need 0 damage mitigation to be able to keep hate off the mages. My WAR/SAM uses 0 -PDT/DT/MDT and can tank most seal NMs without any problem.

[Ironside]

I know it's been said repeatedly, but just for emphasis/clarity: PLD's problem generally has pretty much nothing to do with the amount of damage it does or doesn't take. Damage mitigation isn't a factor, it's damage output; high-level DDs tend to cap hate pretty quickly, at which a dedicated tank with nothing else to offer becomes pretty much useless, especially since Abyssea mobs usually won't kill said DDs more quickly than they can be healed. PLD doesn't have enough damage output to make it a major contributor outside of its tanking ability, which is useless once people reach the hate cap.

[Inafking]

I'm all for helping sword out because it would help my BLU and RDM too. I have said before, my problem is with not being able to take damage like the most defensive job in the game should be able to do. Holding hate has never been a problem for me, even in Abyssea. Death is my problem.

[Bumbeen]

Death is my problem.

You just suck then dude. Pld easily has the most survivability and damage mitigation of any job.

[Greatguardian]

I'm all for helping sword out because it would help my BLU and RDM too. I have said before, my problem is with not being able to take damage like the most defensive job in the game should be able to do. Holding hate has never been a problem for me, even in Abyssea. Death is my problem.

Maybe that has something to do with you going PLD/WAR.

[Inafking]

Pld easily has the most survivability and damage mitigation of any job.

Only with the best gear in the game.

[Greatguardian]

There isn't a single job in the game that isn't total crap when wearing total crap gear so I don't see your point.

[Xellith]

Pld needs ability that can be put up and be sustained that raises the plds enmity cap. This would help atonement dmg too. But yea.. not like anyone is reading this who needs to..

[Bumbeen]

Only with the best gear in the game.

Get the best gear in the game then?

[Xellith]

Get the best gear in the game then?

Easier said than done. Please keep your comments constructive instead of post count +1.

[Bumbeen]

Easier said than done. Please keep your comments constructive instead of post count +1.

Why should it be easy? I'm getting the impression this thread is "I can't get aegis or ochain, so SE please give me the bonuses these items provide as JAs and JTs and spells instead."

Why should SE just give you the ability to be as good as the best geared plds without having to do the quests and content that they did?

And, back when pld was useful at 75, none of my LS plds had aegis, and we did all 75 content sans AV just fine. So I would agree with get better mages.

[Zagen]

Pld needs ability that can be put up and be sustained that raises the plds enmity cap. This would help atonement dmg too. But yea.. not like anyone is reading this who needs to..
.... seriously... do you guys not have a clue why PLD isn't used at all?
If a DD can keep hate from a Mage the whole fight PLD could have 100 times the Enmity of the DD they still aren't worth the party slot...
PLD can hold hate, PLD can cap hate. A DD just does it faster.

Edit: As to gear being hard to get I've gotten all my PLD's gear(2/5 +2ed the rest +1) with 3-4 people who started out in AF/Aurore/Perle/Teal armor >.> This game isn't hard if you try.

It was funny showing up with a Pink/Emp+1 THF, AF/Relic RDM, and AF/Noble's WHM taking down Ironclad in Grauberg only to have to compete against LSs with full +1/2 Emp armor.

[Unleashhell]

Only with the best gear in the game.

Ok. So why is it so hard for you to obtain +1 or +2 Empyrean armor? Seriously do you not have friends or something? Do you not have a Linkshell willing to help you? If you don't have either of those then nothing can help you. I would suggest finding a new linkshell that is more Abyssea active to help you get the right atmas and better gear. If you are one of those Perle PLD then I can see why you take tons of damage. What gear do you normally use if I may ask?

[Greatguardian]

Gear is only going to do so much if you're trying to take hits on PLD/WAR anyways.

There really is a reason that no one (who knew what they were using) used WAR sub on more than 1-2 mobs in the entire game post-70.

[Nawesemo]

Cover!!! Can I have it? Can I find a pld that don't blow his sentinel, for no apparent reason, and one that can use flash effectively instead of spam it? And don't get me started on the ones who refuse to cure themselves and scream "cure vi can I have it?". Sitting on 490/490 mp,,....... I'll give the benefit of the doubt and say ya just never seen it done right yo!!!!!

[Vagrua]

There isn't a single job in the game that isn't total crap when wearing total crap gear so I don't see your point.
I agree with you.

A pld can do decent without Aegis/ochain. You just won't do as well as those plds with them would.

Aegis helps some with the -mdt on A LOT of new NMs, but plds can still reach the 50% cap with gear.

As for ochain, plds still block a lot with capped shield skill without it, just not crazy like an ochain does. A real pld will spam reprisal every 2 minutes. Phalanx/Sentinel also helps.

The tools are there for you to play the job, you just have to use them.

On another note, I also agree that PLD should have provoke as a job ability just like how they gave it phalanx.

[cidbahamut]

On another note, I also agree that PLD should have provoke as a job ability just like how they gave it phalanx.

It's called Flash.

[Unleashhell]

Aegis helps some with the -mdt on A LOT of new NMs, but plds can still reach the 50% cap with gear.

Aegis now passes the 50% cap.

[Vagrua]

Aegis now passes the 50% cap.

Yes, I already knew that.

Edit: Would it be better if I would have specified the cap for everyone besides Aegis users?

[Vagrua]

It's called Flash.

Yes, but if pld were to receive their own provoke, then they could try out other sub jobs which might be more beneficial over /war and /nin.

[Bumbeen]

Pld have their own provoke it's called cure. What other subs do you want to try? You should be using the sub that has you taking the least amount of damage on hard shit. Less damage taken = more enmity retained = a better tank.

[Vagrua]

Pld have their own provoke it's called cure. What other subs do you want to try? You should be using the sub that has you taking the least amount of damage on hard shit. Less damage taken = more enmity retained = a better tank.

Well:

/MNK comes with hp boost/Subtle Blow III/Chakra/Dodge/Focus/Counter

/BLU comes with Heat butt/Blitzstrahl/Cocoon/Metallic Body/Auto Regen/Beast Killer/Lizard Killer

/DRG comes with Jumps and Conserve TP

/DNC comes with Violent flourish/Evasion bonus II/Subtle Blow II/Healing Waltz/Curing Waltz

/COR comes with Resist Paralyze III/Monk's or Evoker's roll

/THF comes with Treasure Hunter II/ Resist Gravity II/Gilfinder/Flee/SA TA

/BRD comes with Resist Silence III/Mage's Ballad

/SMN comes with Resist Slow II/ Auto Refresh/Mp boost from setting sub

/SAM comes with Resist Blind III/Demon Killer/Store TP II/Zanshin/ Meditate/Third Eye/ Sekkanoki

/BST comes with Charm/Wide Scan/Amorph Killer/Lizard Killer/Bird Killer/Vermin Killer

The way I see it, you could adjust your subjob to fit many different scenarios if paladin was given provoke as an ability

[Greatguardian]

Er, what does lack of Provoke have to do with Paladin being unable to sub those jobs? Provoke is just an 1800VE ability on a 30 second timer. Paladin has absolutely 0 issue capping Enmity right now, and really never has if the Paladin in question knew what they were doing.

[Vagrua]

Er, what does lack of Provoke have to do with Paladin being unable to sub those jobs? Provoke is just an 1800VE ability on a 30 second timer. Paladin has absolutely 0 issue capping Enmity right now, and really never has if the Paladin in question knew what they were doing.
People are in the mindset that PLD, without provoke, can't keep hate which is why you see plds only /war mostly. If they had provoke, then they might open their mind to trying other subs. IMO /BLU or /DNC are great subs for PLD. /MNK has its uses too as do other jobs I mentioned, but you only ever see people /war or /nin mostly. At least that is how it is on Bahamut.

[Greatguardian]

Those people are generally just idiots then, sorry to say. /WAR is pretty useless on PLD, and Provoke is a trivial amount of Enmity at best in the big picture. 1800VE is pretty minimal =/ and in a vacuum environment equates to 0 net Enmity gain over time. Of course, in practice, it essentially amounts to halting your VE loss over time, which is still really not so hot.

I typically Pld/Nin because it's the most sensible way to tank while avoiding taking damage, while leaving the option open to Dual Wield in any situation where a shield is overkill. There are occasions where Pld/Rdm and/or Pld/Blu become more viable, for sure. Pld/Mnk is an interesting choice as well, though I'd imagine it works out about the same as anything/MNK these days. But there's really nothing in practice that's stopping people from using these subs now for whatever effect they have. The only thing stopping most people is a complete lack of understanding of how Enmity works and a fairly ridiculous obsession with Provoke.

[Bumbeen]

I thought pld/war died in 2006 o_o;;;;;

[Winrie]

Those people are generally just idiots then, sorry to say. /WAR is pretty useless on PLD, and Provoke is a trivial amount of Enmity at best in the big picture. 1800VE is pretty minimal =/ and in a vacuum environment equates to 0 net Enmity gain over time. Of course, in practice, it essentially amounts to halting your VE loss over time, which is still really not so hot.

I typically Pld/Nin because it's the most sensible way to tank while avoiding taking damage, while leaving the option open to Dual Wield in any situation where a shield is overkill. There are occasions where Pld/Rdm and/or Pld/Blu become more viable, for sure. Pld/Mnk is an interesting choice as well, though I'd imagine it works out about the same as anything/MNK these days. But there's really nothing in practice that's stopping people from using these subs now for whatever effect they have. The only thing stopping most people is a complete lack of understanding of how Enmity works and a fairly ridiculous obsession with Provoke.

And thats all that needs to be said ladies and gentleman, lock this thread now.
Dead old subject is still dead and old.

[Jile]

Just a quick thought after reading this thread.

If SE were to:
1) Double the amount of hate PLD could accumulate over other jobs
2) Double the rate at which all jobs other than PLD's hate degrades
3) Give PLD a new form of provoke they could use at initial time of pull which cap's their hate on each new mob

Then, PLD would tank more often.

All that said, sure PLD would then be able to "tank" but they still would not have the damage output of any half decent DD tho I don't know that most anyone would care, as long as the WHM wouldn't have to work harder....but the bottom line is the mob is going to die just as fast with/without the PLD there.....currently.

As new content is added, and new HNM style nm's are made, I could see this having more value in the post-abyssea world.



That said tho, as you mention, PLD cap hate fine but so does everyone else out there. They could make the above suggestion function as the PLD using a JA which put's themselves into that all-out tanking role, so they could switch between main tank or use another JA which puts them back into a normal-job's enmity function.

>.> Editing the 1st post simply to add emphasis to the fact the original idea was flawed if the PLD had this much hate on them 100% of the time lol. >.<

[Greatguardian]

If SE were to do that, I would make sure never to bring a Paladin to anything aside from Voidwatch ever (well, I do that now for the most part, but I'd be even more careful).

Simply put, on weaker NMs/mobs, Paladin takes more damage than quite a few other jobs that deal significantly more damage. On stronger NMs/mobs, Paladin has absolutely 0 issue capping and maintaining capped hate. So really, it wouldn't reap any tangible benefits, and would doubly serve to ostracize Paladin against weaker NMs/mobs.

I'm not sure where in the world people are getting this idea that Paladin is unable to generate Enmity, or has issues capping hate. They don't. It's simply a matter of them slowing the group down both via opportunity cost, and by causing the NM to look away from the Counter-spamming Monk or Retaliating Warrior.

[Jile]

Yeah the idea of "always" tanking on PLD would be overkill... I'm just saying, if ppl were to seriously not want anyone else to tank but them in a group, the changes would have to be substantial.

That said tho, as you mention, PLD cap hate fine but so does everyone else out there. They could make the above suggestion function as the PLD using a JA which put's themselves into that all-out tanking role, so they could switch between main tank or use another JA which puts them back into a normal-job's enmity function.

It would solve the PLD's desire to tank, on mobs that are of potential value, vs tanking full time which would be, as you mention, suicidal lol.

[Greatguardian]

I don't want Paladin to be the only viable tank.

[Duelle]

I'm not sure where in the world people are getting this idea that Paladin is unable to generate Enmity, or has issues capping hate. They don't. It's simply a matter of them slowing the group down both via opportunity cost, and by causing the NM to look away from the Counter-spamming Monk or Retaliating Warrior.If this is indeed the case, then all you can really do is have PLD join the "reactionary trait club" in some capacity and build from there. There was an old idea I remember for a trait that was basically counter but calculated entirely through the equipped shield.

[Unleashhell]

I don't want Paladin to be the only viable tank.

Not understanding why it is you feel you must post on every single forum topic and bash every post that is out there. Why is it you can never just say "I agree with the OP" or "I think they should change xxx" You just don't want your MNK to be put on the sidelines as a tank, which is fine I understand that. We used it in Salvage years ago, and we use them now in Abyssea. Cant you just be constructive instead of negative to every single persons post. People play the game to have fun, if people want to tank with PLD let them. Are thier other tank options, yes. But this is the Paladin forum that people that play paladin give feedback to SE about how they want paladin to change for the better. As the game is now its it the most effecient tank, no. Are thier lots of other soptions out there like MNK, WAR, or NIN yes. Thats is not what we are in this forum to talk about. We are here to talk about improving Paladin, not bash it. Go to some other forums if you feel the need for post count+1 with nothing but negative feedback.

[Orson]

Not understanding why it is you feel you must post on every single forum topic and bash every post that is out there. Why is it you can never just say "I agree with the OP" or "I think they should change xxx" You just don't want your MNK to be put on the sidelines as a tank, which is fine I understand that. We used it in Salvage years ago, and we use them now in Abyssea. Cant you just be constructive instead of negative to every single persons post. People play the game to have fun, if people want to tank with PLD let them. Are thier other tank options, yes. But this is the Paladin forum that people that play paladin give feedback to SE about how they want paladin to change for the better. As the game is now its it the most effecient tank, no. Are thier lots of other soptions out there like MNK, WAR, or NIN yes. Thats is not what we are in this forum to talk about. We are here to talk about improving Paladin, not bash it. Go to some other forums if you feel the need for post count+1 with nothing but negative feedback.

He's not being a negative Nancy he's pointing out that people like variety. Pld tanks do well in many situations. If your group doesn't like using Pld that is their choice. Pld will never be the paramount tank unless they destroy DD jobs' tanking ability including Nin. Level more jobs enjoy different roles Pld is far more useful many other jobs that could be mentioned.

[Unleashhell]

He's not being a negative Nancy he's pointing out that people like variety. Pld tanks do well in many situations. If your group doesn't like using Pld that is their choice. Pld will never be the paramount tank unless they destroy DD jobs' tanking ability including Nin. Level more jobs enjoy different roles Pld is far more useful many other jobs that could be mentioned.

My point is that instead of saying what can or should be improved its always bash bash bash.... MNK NIN WAR is better for everything in the game blah blah blah... every post. I'm not picking a fight or anything, he has good knowledge of the game like most of us do but instead of being negative about paladin why not focus on agreeing with people or give thoughts on how to improve that job instead of the paladin is dead, paladin use useless etc etc. I would like to see his feedback on how to improve it instead of just saying its a dead job. Some of use just like playing paladin, and we try to make good use out our resources. I have MNK, WAR, NIN I can play also but I'm a career PLD so why is it such a big deal for people to like a certain job they play and to find ways to utilize it the way they want too. I pay for my game every month, nobody else, so why such a big thing about playing it the way we want to play it? SE has these forums for feedback on how to improve the game but instead people just want to bash SE all the time and all the jobs in the game.

[Andrien]

pld is best at being a shield for the party. nobody goes out looking for a pld to damage deal. that simple. The fact of the matter is they need changes to make them first choice to tank. pld cant play a supporting role in a party either in my opinion.

[Greatguardian]

My point is that instead of saying what can or should be improved its always bash bash bash.... MNK NIN WAR is better for everything in the game blah blah blah... every post. I'm not picking a fight or anything, he has good knowledge of the game like most of us do but instead of being negative about paladin why not focus on agreeing with people or give thoughts on how to improve that job instead of the paladin is dead, paladin use useless etc etc. I would like to see his feedback on how to improve it instead of just saying its a dead job. Some of use just like playing paladin, and we try to make good use out our resources. I have MNK, WAR, NIN I can play also but I'm a career PLD so why is it such a big deal for people to like a certain job they play and to find ways to utilize it the way they want too. I pay for my game every month, nobody else, so why such a big thing about playing it the way we want to play it? SE has these forums for feedback on how to improve the game but instead people just want to bash SE all the time and all the jobs in the game.

I only post in 4 job subforums and General Discussion. I choose to post in those 4 job forums because those 4 jobs happen to be my favorite, including Paladin. Yes, believe it or not, for all of Paladin's faults that I'm constantly pointing out, I'm a career Paladin and it's easily my favorite job in the world to gear up and play.

But that doesn't make it any good for the majority of content right now. That doesn't mean I'm ever going to use it in Abyssea. And that doesn't mean I'm going to delude myself into thinking that it's better than it is, or was better before Abyssea, or that the vast majority of changes that people propose here will do anything but hurt the Paladin job.

Do I want Paladin to be the only viable tank in the world? Hell no. That's not fun, and that's not fair. I love co-tanking with other people and jobs, especially back in 2009 when people were starting to really experiment with the potential of DD tanks. Tanking with Drks is fun. Tanking with Sams is fun. Tanking with Nins is fun. Reducing Tank-class gameplay to PLD onry by simply not allowing anyone else to reach their Enmity level? That's selfish and obscene.

I'm negative to so many posts here because people just don't seem to get it. They don't seem to bother reading, or understanding, anything that's been posted before they come in to sing the same song 9,000th verse. Reading is just that bloody hard, apparently. It doesn't matter how many times the reality of the Paladin job is explained to people, as long as people are under the impression that "What the job should be in Final Fantasies or in my limited conceptual understanding of white knights" actually matters to this game, then absolutely nothing can be solved. It's not about concepts. It's not about what Paladin "should" be. It's about what Paladin is, and what can be done to improve on its strengths.

People here are so caught up about being unpopular in Abyssea. Who the hell cares if your job doesn't work well in one event? Monk was sure as hell laughed at at 3-Kings back in the day, despite consistently being one of the strongest DDs in the game. White Mage was laughed at as an EXP healer for years. Ninja was absolutely terrible and unloved once they dinged 74. How popular a job is depends entirely on context. There is absolutely no need to make every job viable/awesome for everything. That's just dumb and defeats the entire purpose of the Job system.

And then you take a look at Paladin and wonder what changed between their hey-day and now, and you know what that was? Context. Absolutely nothing else. We weren't nerfed. The rules simply changed. Paladin is terrible in Abyssea, and will always be terrible in Abyssea until the day the servers shut down and that is okay. Outside Abyssea? In real content that's made for our level? Paladin is damn good. Paladin's Empyrean shield has given the job a key to God mode. They've buffed Aegis and Burtgang to give similar god-tier buffs to the Paladins adventurous enough to acquire them. Paladin has always been able to generate and cap Enmity, and now it's even easier. There is nothing wrong with Voidwatch-and-beyond Paladin.

But you know what Paladin does not need? Provoke. Provoke is useless. To anyone who knows a darn thing about Enmity mechanics, Provoke has always been useless. Paladin does not need Enmity-generating abilities. Paladin can max Enmity extremely quickly. So why do people complain about not being able to get hate on Paladin? Probably because they're just not very good at it. Or because they're sitting on Pld/War and wondering why they can neither get hate nor survive when they get it. I hope people realize that they lose Enmity every single time they get hit. I hope they realize that they are losing significantly more Enmity than Provoke will ever net them in a million years. If they don't, it's their loss. But it's not a fault with Paladin.

You know what else Paladin doesn't need? An Enmity cap raise or Enmity adjustments. Paladin can cap hate just fine. They are extremely adept at it. Moreover, they're extremely adept at keeping their Enmity capped once it's there. So what if everyone and their mom can keep their hate capped in Abyssea? It's not so easy outside, especially when, and I'll let the class think about this one for a moment, especially when DDs are taking damage. Taking damage lowers Enmity, by a lot.

People can play their jobs however they want, it doesn't affect me. But when it comes time to look at potential adjustments and improvements to the Paladin job and people honestly think that they need a Provoke? I'm going to say otherwise, because that does affect me. A lot of the problems people have with their Paladin are with the player, not the job. The former can be fixed without damaging the job and wasting development time. But even if people don't want to bother fixing it for themselves, I'd still take extreme offense to wasting a perfectly good opportunity to improve on Paladin just because someone is too lazy or stubborn to admit that they could be doing things a better way.

[Orson]

@Unleashhell

I'm not saying not to provide feedback on how you'd like see the game evolve. I'm just saying Pld is niche job and does it well already. We'll be hard pressed to make Pld much better without wrecking balance. A lot of this has to do with certain gear like Ochain and Aegis. I realize Aegis is a bit out of reach for most but Ochain isn't that much harder to get than an Emp weapon which is basically considered the norm for a melee.

[Unleashhell]

@Greatguardian

I understand your points and yes they are good points. I wold just like to see Paladin evolve further. i feel it is getting left behind a little bit. I would like to see adjustments to it that I did in another post. If you you want to throw your view on it feel free, its under http://http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11514-The-dev-s-vision-for-pld-and-the-problem-i-see-with-it

Its just some ideas I have that I think Paladin would benefit from and make it a stronger more wanted job and not make it completely out of balance.

[Dawnn]

What would help "fix" paladin would be a Provoke related to that in Ballista, where it is a status effect on the target that forces them only to attack you

idk why nobody has mentioned it yet

[Andrien]

What would help "fix" paladin would be a Provoke related to that in Ballista, where it is a status effect on the target that forces them only to attack you

idk why nobody has mentioned it yet

Thats pretty good. If I understand correctly about how this provoke works in ballista. I remember someone used provoke on me, but I would still be targeting the player I wanted to attack, and every hit/magical attack I landed on them the damage would go onto the provoker instead no matter how far away they are, and self buffs wont work on yourself either, like Cure etc.

I think thats a great idea honestly. I wont mind adding new abilities myself like some hate damage dealing abilities like Smite etc. just my 2 cents

[Dawnn]

its kinda simple if you think about it, every DD capping hate so the one who makes the most recent action gets hate

for a pld to try to keep up with DD's like that is near impossible unless they have almace or whatever, but if you made a job ability that forced the mob to target you (kinda like cover) then you wouldnt even need to worry about your hate -capped- levels, you just spam that ability, then go back to being defensive the way paladins were MEANT to be, iron impenetrable tanks

[Greatguardian]

Any experienced, Endgame Paladin who knows how to work as part of a team would never, ever use an ability that forced a monster to focus solely on one person.

I'm sorry, but it's extremely obvious that there's very little experience speaking behind some of these things. Endgame tanking outside Abyssea is team-based. You have co-tanks. You lose hate on purpose a lot. Forcing a mob to lock onto you for some amount of time is basically asking to get your ass kicked and make your entire team worthless.

[Dawnn]

if it was like the provoke in ballista you would still have that flexibility due to its short duration, since provoke is 30 sec recast, and the duration of that provoke landing (it can miss) is about half that so 15 seconds

If you cant hold a mob for 15 secs then suck less?

[Dawnn]

it wouldnt even have to be an added effect on provoke, hell it could be a piece of gear to war/pld that augments provoke, it could be a new ability, im just saying it could be a tool used EFFICIENTLY if they had it and knew how to work with it

[Zagen]

it wouldnt even have to be an added effect on provoke, hell it could be a piece of gear to war/pld that augments provoke, it could be a new ability, im just saying it could be a tool used EFFICIENTLY if they had it and knew how to work with it
The point is its a tool that isn't needed as tank let alone as a PLD tank. You know where the hate line is between you and your co-tank and you drop below to let the co-tank take over to give you and the healers a bit of breathing room as well as to reduce the rare chance of a healer/support role pulling hate because they focused on 1 tank for too long.

[Greatguardian]

if it was like the provoke in ballista you would still have that flexibility due to its short duration, since provoke is 30 sec recast, and the duration of that provoke landing (it can miss) is about half that so 15 seconds

If you cant hold a mob for 15 secs then suck less?

That does not matter.

You are essentially forcing the monster to follow a certain pattern of behavior for a set time frame that you have absolutely no control over until it wears. That is not smart.

Also, this is Provoke. Provoke means subbing War. If you're subbing WAR, then suck less. Added bonus, if you can't control and cap/uncap your Enmity at will, suck less =/. No experienced Paladin needs an auto-cap ability to cap their hate when they want it.

[Andrien]

Any experienced, Endgame Paladin who knows how to work as part of a team would never, ever use an ability that forced a monster to focus solely on one person.

Provoke, Flash, Sentinel, Cure IV, and Rampert, are some actions and job abilities that a PLD excels at for the sole purpose of keeping hate. They have the best armor for this..


I'm sorry, but it's extremely obvious that there's very little experience speaking behind some of these things. Endgame tanking outside Abyssea is team-based. You have co-tanks. You lose hate on purpose a lot. Forcing a mob to lock onto you for some amount of time is basically asking to get your ass kicked and make your entire team worthless.


No need to apologize. I wonder if that large number of post you have is all similar comments like this that serves no purpose in a discussion, and implying everyone to play a curtain way that you feel is right.

[Zagen]

Provoke, Flash, Sentinel, Cure IV, and Rampert, are some actions and job abilities that a PLD excels at for the sole purpose of keeping hate. They have the best armor for this..
How does a nonOchain endgame PLD/NIN have Provoke? We are talking about a non MPsponge tank right?

Edit: Cure IV gives you less hate than meleeing unless you can't do 200~ damage in 4 seconds from melee.

[Greatguardian]

Provoke, Flash, Sentinel, Cure IV, and Rampert, are some actions and job abilities that a PLD excels at for the sole purpose of keeping hate. They have the best armor for this..




No need to apologize. I wonder if that large number of post you have is all similar comments like this that serves no purpose in a discussion, and implying everyone to play a curtain way that you feel is right.


Have you really never worked with a co-tank before? Ever?

If not, read my thread here (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/10087-A-Treatise-on-Fundamental-Game-Mechanics-in-the-Context-of-Early-2010-Paladin) and skip to the portion near the bottom about teamwork and co-tanking. Or better yet, just read the whole thing.

[Andrien]

How does a nonOchain endgame PLD/NIN have Provoke? We are talking about a non MPsponge tank right?

Edit: Cure IV gives you less hate than meleeing unless you can't do 200~ damage in 4 seconds from melee.

I wonder if you actually read my post. I said those are some job abilities, and actions a paladin excels at. Of course you know pld/war gets provoke.


Have you really never worked with a co-tank before? Ever?

If not, read my thread here (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/10087-A-Treatise-on-Fundamental-Game-Mechanics-in-the-Context-of-Early-2010-Paladin) and skip to the portion near the bottom about teamwork and co-tanking. Or better yet, just read the whole thing.

Not going to change the subject. The fact of the matter is PLD have the JA and equipment to excel in tanking. They don't make great damage dealers or healers. Although damage dealing can be subjective, but they don't excel in it.

[Zagen]

I wonder if you actually read my post. I said those are some job abilities, and actions a paladin excels at. Of course you know pld/war gets provoke.
The point is PLD/WAR without Ochain = MP Sponge = Healer Pull hate... and a worse tank when PLD/NIN mitigates more damage and handles hate better.

[Greatguardian]

I wonder if you actually read my post. I said those are some job abilities, and actions a paladin excels at. Of course you know pld/war gets provoke.



Not going to change the subject. The fact of the matter is PLD have the JA and equipment to excel in tanking. They don't make great damage dealers or healers. Although damage dealing can be subjective, but they don't excel in it.

So... what? That has absolutely nothing to do with it being a horrible idea to lock a monster onto a single target.

There is such a thing as having more than one Tank tanking a monster. And on anything that's actually seriously difficult, it's pretty much the standard.

You always want the ability to lose hate when you need to. Enmity management is an extremely important skill. It's blatantly obvious that we're working with completely different mindsets here. You're not even tanking a second tank into account at all, and that says a lot.

[Andrien]

The point is PLD/WAR without Ochain = MP Sponge = Healer Pull hate... and a worse tank when PLD/NIN mitigates more damage and handles hate better.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I never was lol. No DMG is better than taking some. But, blink tank can be subjective with equipment like Creed Collar, and Creed Cuisses +2. In fact the entire creed +2 set Occasionally absorbs damage taken. Set proc believed to be somewhere around 5% for each part. I might be wrong though.

[Greatguardian]

Taking damage demolishes your CE, the most important kind of Enmity for a dedicated tank, and creates a significantly greater strain on your support staff. There's a reason it's a good idea for DDs and Mages to occasionally take a strategic punch.

[Andrien]

So... what? That has absolutely nothing to do with it being a horrible idea to lock a monster onto a single target.

There is such a thing as having more than one Tank tanking a monster. And on anything that's actually seriously difficult, it's pretty much the standard.

You always want the ability to lose hate when you need to. Enmity management is an extremely important skill. It's blatantly obvious that we're working with completely different mindsets here. You're not even tanking a second tank into account at all, and that says a lot.

I'm taking you never solo tanked before. I agree there is nothing wrong with teamwork at all, anyone can tank if they can keep hate and survive. In my opinion pld is best at doing just that. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

[Greatguardian]

Paladin isn't the best at staying alive solo =/. I've solo tanked plenty, on trash NMs where it's feasible to do. But if we're talking about trash NMs, plenty of jobs can stay alive and keep hate better than Paladin.

The harder any given NM is, the more of an advantage PLD gets in the Enmity game because everyone else is able to do less and less damage for Enmity while taking more and more. By the same token, when you hit an NM that's too hard for a DD to tank with damage-Enmity, Paladin (and no one else, really) should not be tanking on their own.

Can I do it? Sure. I've tanked plenty of hard stuff solo when I had to. That doesn't mean it was anywhere near ideal, or easy, or practical, and I wouldn't want to do it again in the future. People figured out years ago that the ideal way to tank any difficult mob was in pairs. Any more would become too complicated to manage (unless the NM could insta-kill people fairly often or something, and even then that was 2 at a time + rotation), while solo tanking was just way too dangerous and lead to significantly more deaths. Hell, with anything that is legitimately difficult to fight, solo tanking may as well be impossible, that's how much you're gaining by having 2 tanks that work together well.

Any ability that takes away the ability to work properly with your co-tank is useless at best, harmful or even wipe-causing at worst. Besides, Provoke is fairly useless at it is and still requires /War which in and of itself is pretty bad.

[Andrien]

Paladin isn't the best at staying alive solo =/. I've solo tanked plenty, on trash NMs where it's feasible to do. But if we're talking about trash NMs, plenty of jobs can stay alive and keep hate better than Paladin.

I agreed with you before but, you've lost all creditability with this paragraph alone. Nobody has to play the way you think is right.

I've solo tanked HNM like Sarameya, Cerberus, Fafnir, Nidhogg, Tiamat, Tinnin and the list goes on. That's low man party before the cap was increased to 80. So whose you to say the most ideal way to play? I'm sure your way works fine but, know there is sometimes more than one way to solving a given problem. You know about Trick Attack right?

You're fixed on co-op play and that is fine, but pld should be first choice on the list when it comes to tanking. Not second, not temporally.

[Greatguardian]

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

Paladin is not the best job in the game at staying alive solo-tanking with support, or even staying alive solo. Paladin is not the best job in the game at generating hate on NMs weaker than X/Y/Z.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

I'm not fixed on anything. But I do know that co-op tanking is exponentially more effective and feasible than solo tanking on anything that is difficult. Paladin does not need the ability to tank weak monsters better. Every other job in the game can already do that, better than Pld can, and no Enmity "fix" is going to do anything but force people to never bring Paladins to weak NMs to avoid the frustration, and provide no benefit to any Paladin tanking a difficult monster with a co-tank.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

[Andrien]

@ Greatguardian

Contradicting yourself much? I've already made my point clear, and I've agreed with you on a few things. However...The majority of your claims is false.

[Dawnn]

i agree with andrien completely :x

[Greatguardian]

Contradicting where and which claims are false?

Monk is a better tank-with-support (taking less damage than any non-Ochain Pld) on anything weaker than the solo-tank-efficiency boundary, Red Mage is a better solo tank without support. There. Two jobs that can survive better than Paladin. Falsehoods where?

Anything that's a stronger DD than Paladin is a better hate-generator on anything weaker than the solo-tank-efficiency boundary. Why? Because all of those abilities you mentioned earlier only generate VE. Paladin has to deal damage, cure, or Flash if they want to build CE, which can't be done nearly as quickly as jobs that can generate more damage. Again, falsehoods where?

Or are you claiming now that tanking in pairs is not exponentially more efficient than solo tanking on hard NMs?

[Dawnn]

This is what i see, yeah the paladin generates whatever the hell types of hate your talking about
but it doesnt do any good inside abyssea when the monk spams V smite every 20~ seconds

what i see is alot of you SHOOTING down ideas rather than actually contributing to the thread and thinking of tools to use

obviously SE has problems of thinking for themselves, the past few updates to "fix" paladin have shown us so

so rather than shooting down ideas how bout contributing some broski?

[cidbahamut]

This is what i see, yeah the paladin generates whatever the hell types of hate your talking about


Leave this discussion right now and go educate yourself: http://kanican.livejournal.com/13848.html

You'll have a better chance of being taken seriously if you possess a thorough understanding of the mechanics involved in tanking.

[Dawnn]

i know CE and VE just dont feel like creating a lengthy post -.-

[Greatguardian]

Contributed plenty, broski. Not my fault you haven't seen any in your 24 posts. I don't need to repeat myself every single time someone posts the same, rehashed, proven-useless-a-million-times Provoke bullcrap. If you look up my profile, the only two threads I've ever created have probably contributed more information surrounding the Paladin class than the entire rest of the Paladin subforum combined. And by probably I mean definitely.

Enmity caps, bro. Monk can cap hate in 30 seconds (in Abyssea). Paladin in 45 (in Abyssea). What's the difference after 45 seconds? Nada. Aside from the fact that Monk (in Abyssea) takes less damage, deals more damage, and actually benefits from the monster facing them (Counters, those deal a ton of damage). Who cares about Abyssea anyways? Paladin is never going to be good there, and that's fine. Abyssea is one event, that's already over with. People really need to get over that.

Paladin is perfectly fine and needed in Voidwatch. And it will continue to be such in future overworld content, from the looks of things. There's not really that much that needs fixing outside.

[Dawnn]

Go to some other forums if you feel the need for post count+1 with nothing but negative feedback.

said that to you great, apparently im not the only one who sees your negativity :3

[Greatguardian]

said that to you great, apparently im not the only one who sees your negativity :3

If you're reading up, you should probably see how the rest of that exchange went brah.

[Andrien]

Contradicting where and which claims are false?

Monk is a better tank-with-support (taking less damage than any non-Ochain Pld) on anything weaker than the solo-tank-efficiency boundary, Red Mage is a better solo tank without support. There. Two jobs that can survive better than Paladin. Falsehoods where?

Anything that's a stronger DD than Paladin is a better hate-generator on anything weaker than the solo-tank-efficiency boundary. Why? Because all of those abilities you mentioned earlier only generate VE. Paladin has to deal damage, cure, or Flash if they want to build CE, which can't be done nearly as quickly as jobs that can generate more damage. Again, falsehoods where?

Or are you claiming now that tanking in pairs is not exponentially more efficient than solo tanking on hard NMs?

Its like you're going in cycles. Your claims are all subjective.. Did you miss the point I made with Trick Attack? Moving on, to make things clear when I say solo tank, I mean tank without the need of a supporting tank on difficult monsters. I hope that clears things up. I'm claiming PLD role is not a supporting role. Your claims about MNK is true, in fact they can solo tank almost anything inside Abyssea, but outside is a different story I'm not sure. All supporting tanks jobs in FFXI now assumes the role as main tank. Now tell me your story about RDM solo tanking on a HNM with DD generating hate. I'm very curious about this..

With that said about stronger DD that generates more enmity, that brings us back to square one. In order for PLD to keep up, they need some changes..

[Dawnn]

If you're reading up, you should probably see how the rest of that exchange went brah.

yeah i see exactly went

you contributing little to nothing
shotting down ideas
getting post counts +1 with failed and contradictory responses
then hiding behind those post counts to try to "defend" your point of view, which is a pretty sad defense imo

:D

[Dawnn]

regardless im done with this thread, ive said what i needed to say, contributed my 2 cents with the idea of a brenner-effect provoke ability or spell or whatnot

honestly i dont care of SE implements it or not, just thinking OUTSIDE THE DAMN BOX FOR ONCE

[Greatguardian]

Its like you're going in cycles. Your claims are all subjective.. Did you miss the point I made with Trick Attack? Moving on, to make things clear when I say solo tank, I mean tank without the need of a supporting tank on difficult monsters. I hope that clears things up. I'm claiming PLD role is not a supporting role. Your claims about MNK is true, in fact they can solo tank almost anything inside Abyssea, but outside is a different story I'm not sure. All supporting tanks jobs in FFXI now assumes the role as main tank. Now tell me your story about RDM solo tanking on a HNM with DD generating hate. I'm very curious about this..

With that said about stronger DD that generates more enmity, that brings us back to square one. In order for PLD to keep up, they need some changes..

I'm not claiming Paladin is a support role, so I'm not sure where this conflict lies. Paladin is one of a few jobs that can play the main tank role well outside (and I see no reason to gimp the others, but moving on), but that doesn't mean they don't operate as part of a team. Co-tanking is not a matter of having one main and one support tank, but rather two main tanks who know how to work well together. Their synergy creates a significantly more potent tanking team than two individual tanks would.

As for RDM solo tanking with DD, I'd imagine there would be some form of support there if there were DDs around so it would become a moot point. How many Paladins fight things with 2 DDs feeding TP and no mages? Pre-Rdm-Tank nerf that would be an easy question to answer either way, though.

As for Enmity, I think you missed the inflection point I was talking about earlier. The stronger the target, the less effective DDs are at building Enmity, and the more relatively effective Paladin is at building it. Against EXP mobs? Paladin will never have hate. Against trash NMs? Rarely have hate. Against extremely strong NMs? Paladin will be one of the few jobs that can properly generate, control, and cap Enmity. I don't think Paladin really even needs to keep hate on weaker monsters. There are other jobs filling that niche to the brim right now. Paladin has its place, and it already does its job extremely well there. The only thing that brought Paladin out of the limelight was the fact that A) Everything in the Overworld pre-Abyssea was extremely easy by Khimaira #324, and B) Nothing in Abyssea was even remotely near hard enough to hit that inflection point where Paladin becomes most powerful.

Moving outside Abyssea now into harder content like Neo Dynamis and Voidwatch? Paladin excels, and doesn't really need much fixing.

[Andrien]

I understand. Well I'm waiting for more content to come out that will let my friends tell me to come pld. waiting for a long time.. Voidwatch, meh. Dynamis is to old.

[Yokoh]

You're still asuming people have something to start with or that there is enough easily attainable gear and atma. That is simply not the case. I have the deaths to prove it.

Well.. this this I almost fell to the floor. I thought it was a given that people Lv70+ knew the basic armor they should use/have/prepared for 75+... Pink gear/Perle set is purchasable from Cruor NPC, W.Turban is easy to get, 20 Gold imperial Coins, a pick-up-and-play party can easy get you +1 Emp seals for Head, Hands, Feet, Legs. The only problematic seal to get would be for the body, which involves multiple NM kills for pop items.

And if you dont really want to put a little time in to get, what i feel is pretty easy stuff (in relation to other armor sets from Salvage, Nyzle, Sky - which is again easy but a little more tricky than above mention and sea), is beyond me.

As for WHM gear, nothing stopping them from having a Light staff (10%) Noble/Aristocrat (10%/12%) Orison cape (3%) which by my reckoning, gets you 23-25% from purchasable gear... And if gil an issue, nothing stopping you from getting easy gil from selling the 3 armor sets you get from Cruor NPC (easy 110k+ per round)

I'm not having a go at you directly. I'm just trying to state that, getting armor in Abyssea is so much easier than before. With shout groups, you can obtain +1 Seals, Atma, Abysite's etc. There are lots of people in your position, but too many people unwilling to do something about it... It's a shame.

[Ravenmore]

The people that can't grasp co-tanking are the same ones that never got to fight anything harder then running kirin around his room. They have no idea how to fight hard NMs since they never got to tank HNMs either in KS99s at 75, ZNM T4s at 75JoL at 75.

Abyssea NMs can be looked at like old exp parties once people got the retarded idea of fighting IT++ out thier heads tanks were not needed. As soon as you got to endgame tanks were needed again. On old HNMs you didn't have everyone run up to the NM and start wacking away unless you were zerging and then you only had the pld there incase the zerg failed.

Abyssea is mid game at best though SE shot them selfs in the foot again saying af3+2 was going to be the top gear and everything that comes now will be side grades with some pieces being better. Only place pld/war was any real use was dyna to voke mobs off the sleepers and pullers, wasn't to hold hate just to get it back to the camp or keep them at camp.

[Andrien]

The people that can't grasp co-tanking are the same ones that never got to fight anything harder then running kirin around his room. They have no idea how to fight hard NMs since they never got to tank HNMs either in KS99s at 75, ZNM T4s at 75JoL at 75.

Abyssea NMs can be looked at like old exp parties once people got the retarded idea of fighting IT++ out thier heads tanks were not needed. As soon as you got to endgame tanks were needed again. On old HNMs you didn't have everyone run up to the NM and start wacking away unless you were zerging and then you only had the pld there incase the zerg failed.

Abyssea is mid game at best though SE shot them selfs in the foot again saying af3+2 was going to be the top gear and everything that comes now will be side grades with some pieces being better. Only place pld/war was any real use was dyna to voke mobs off the sleepers and pullers, wasn't to hold hate just to get it back to the camp or keep them at camp.

I don't mean to burst your bubble, but do you mind posting something related to the thread topic? Instead of creating false accusations one and ranting in two paragraphs. I get what you're saying though but, who is you to say the ideal way to play? If you're good, and your team knows what they're doing you don't need a co-tank. I agree it'll make the job easy but its not necessary. You can tank most of those things you listed without a co-tank.

That is all I have to say in this entire thread. Feel free to disagree, but it wont change what I think about PLD.