Why more haste?

[paito]

Hello everyone,

I want to discus this matter about Monk's Haste!
Why well there now on 3 emperial gears of monk with haste + Black belt

Tantra hose +2 = 7%
Tantra gloves +2 = 3%
Tantra crown +2 = 7%
+
Black belt = 12%
=
28% Haste total and we know that haste caps at 25%
Why oh why that hands have haste+ on it beats me?
is it the fact that ppl with Brown belt?
but that is now way easier now then it use to be
They should put att+ or acc+ on that gear instead that 3% haste! :(

If you look it that way Black belt or those hands are a kinda waste

[Dfoley]

Simply put:
1) Not everyone has a BB
2) BB is not 'easy' to get
3) There are actually better belt options now (twilight) for DD

While you can 1 group most of the NM for BB the long camps arent worth the trouble. And the nm99 versions aren't much better, having spent 3 orbs and still not getting my wyrm beard.

I like the haste on the gloves, but I disagree that they should replace it with acc or atk. I would much rather have double attack. However the haste is needed to reach the cap if you use twilight belt which is far superior to BB if you can cap haste.

[Stormy]

In what way is Twilight Belt a better (let alone far superior) option for Monks?

[kaht]

Simply put:
1) Not everyone has a BB
2) BB is not 'easy' to get
3) There are actually better belt options now (twilight) for DD


4) Wear relic gloves if you want attack gloves. You don't HAVE to wear all emp armor.

[Greatguardian]

I'd imagine this is simply to give less hardcore players more options. If you change all of those AF3+2 to AF3+1 you end up back at 25% Haste. Keep the +2 but change the black belt to a brown belt and you're back at 24%. Having full AF3+2 and a Black belt is ideal, but it is simply no longer required for more casual players to hit the haste cap.

Black Belt also destroys Twilight Belt, and the H2H skill +7 on the AF3+2 hands brings any 8/8 merit MNK up a damage tier which makes them your best option in the hands slot anyways.

[paito]

Well that is darn great because the poeple that worked for it to gain that item is just a waste of time
for them.

What I think what they can make it up for it.
Is for the Black belt are trails like the armors

[Mirage]

More haste pieces just means you get more freedom when it comes to which pieces to swap out for things that give you bigger boosts to other stats.

[Dfoley]

In what way is Twilight Belt a better (let alone far superior) option for Monks?

Well if you cap haste with either belt:
You are looking at 2% dbl atk vs 7 str. If you read my post I was talking about from a DD stand point, and from a DD stand point, 2%dbl atk is far superior to 7 str.

The str is nice for WS, but there are better belts to ws in.

Now for tanking BB is far superior, but for DD it is not IF you can cap haste without it.

[Stormy]

You forgot to include the stats you lose from your feet slot, since you'll need haste shoes to cap with Twilight.

It's not really worth correcting the flawed comparison though, because by your own admission, BB is far superior. If you're DD'ing, you're tanking.

[Dfoley]

You forgot to include the stats you lose from your feet slot, since you'll need haste shoes to cap with Twilight.

It's not really worth correcting the flawed comparison though, because by your own admission, BB is far superior. If you're DD'ing, you're tanking.

Except thats not what I am talking about at all, and I dont appreciate you twisting my words to fit your point of view.

If all you care about is DD, then twilight is better. If you are tanking and DDing yes BB would be better, but that is not what I said. Think what you want but dont change my posts to say what you want them to.

DD alone Twilight > BB, tanking/dding, yes BB is better.

I am talking about 1 piece of gear not a whole suit, not what you might have to change here and there, a straight up comparison of A vs B.

[Stormy]

You're twisting your own argument. Your previous post argued that if you can cap haste with Twilight, Twilight is better. You can't cap haste with Twilight without altering other slots, because 7 is not equal to 12, and the Tantra set does not overkill enough to compensate for that.

However, if you want to make it a straight one-to-one, belt-to-belt comparison, the argument becomes 5haste 5str vs 2DA. BB wins again, no question.

Again, the distinction between 'tanking' and 'DDing' does not exist.

[Cream_Soda]

Full af3+2 has 16% haste.

+ Twilight = 23% haste.

You have to swap af3+2 shoes to haste shoes.

Full af3+2 + black belt = 28% haste rounds down to 25 due to cap.

2% DA doesn't beat the kick dmg from af3+3 shoes along as 5/5 set bonus.

If you don't have black belt, even brown belt and af3+2 shoes will beat any combo you can come up w/ twilight.

Twilight is trash.

[Mojo]

Twilight is great... for other jobs only. It does not even come class for best DD set for MNK.

[Martinius]

Full af3+2 has 16% haste.

+ Twilight = 23% haste.

You have to swap af3+2 shoes to haste shoes.

Full af3+2 + black belt = 28% haste rounds down to 25 due to cap.

2% DA doesn't beat the kick dmg from af3+3 shoes along as 5/5 set bonus.

If you don't have black belt, even brown belt and af3+2 shoes will beat any combo you can come up w/ twilight.

Twilight is trash.

just to tack on, to really cap haste, you're gonna need to use fumas, not usukane, so you're not getting the acc and att. 2% DA and 3 agi instead of capped haste, and the set bonus + the beefy kick attack bonus is a no brainer.

[Stormy]

thanks for confirming things we knew about six+ months ago. your input is indispensible.

[Crabian]

How is Twilight vs BB even a discussion? Lol, I didn't realize it ever was...

[Drhatchet]

Twilight Belt is superior from a purely DD standpoint IF you wear 4/5 af3+2 and replace the feet with any haste 2% feet only. Maintains haste cap and gives you more double attack (since tping in STR is really only effective if the mob has super high VIT). If tanking I'd just use the BB anyway because of the extra pdt.

Ues you need 26% in gear to hit 25% but you won't miss that small bit of haste unless your doing something with crazy amounts of magical haste stacked on (zerg).

That said, BB is still a sick belt, and if you have it you may as well use it.

[Cream_Soda]

Twilight Belt is superior from a purely DD standpoint IF you wear 4/5 af3+2 and replace the feet with any haste 2% feet only. Maintains haste cap and gives you more double attack (since tping in STR is really only effective if the mob has super high VIT). If tanking I'd just use the BB anyway because of the extra pdt.
No

Not at all

Enhanced DMG on kicks and 5/5 set bonus is going to beat 2% DA rather easily. Twilight is bad and anyone who uses it on monk should feel bad. This is excluding the PDT.

[Segasaturn]

While the Haste cap is 25% on gear, I'm under the impression that you would need 26% in gear to top off and be at a full 25%.....

[Cream_Soda]

While the Haste cap is 25% on gear, I'm under the impression that you would need 26% in gear to top off and be at a full 25%.....
That's true, but 25% is so cose to the cap, the last % of haste isn't 1% haste, it's like .3% haste, which is pretty minuscule.

[Cream_Soda]

Mnk/war w/ brutal, atma of apocalypse, epona's ring.

18% double attack, 18% triple attack.

Triple attack has priority over double attack (if both go to proc in the same attack round, you'll get the triple attack, but wo'nt get the double attack)

Using 100 attack rounds as an example.

Triple attack will proc 18 times.

Double attack would proc 18 times, but 18% of the time it'll be stopped by triple attack, so 18 * (.82) = an average of 14.76 DA procs.

18 TA procs at 2 extra hits per proc = 36 extra hits.
14.76 DA procs at 1 extra hit per proc = 14.76 extra hits.

100 + 36 + 14.76 = 150.76 attacks on average.

Now, let's do the same, but using 20% DA (Twilight belt).


20 extra hits, but only activates 82% of the time due to triple attack.


20 (.82) = 16.4 extra attacks. (vs 14.76 w/ 18% DA)


100 + 36 + 16.4 = 152.4 attacks on average.


152.4/150.76 = 1.09% increase in damage as compared to adding 2% DA to 0 DA and 0 TA. Essentially half the effectiveness.

The DMG+ on the kick boots themselves should give more than a 1% increase, yet alone the 5/5 set bonus on af3+2 as well as the .3% haste you're getting going from 25 to 26.


Edit: it's going to be even less than that 1% in actuality because I never accounted for kick attack damage, so the TP gain % increase and total damage % increase are going to be even less once you look at the kicks.

[Leonlionheart]

I was under the impression that Double Attack and Triple Attack could proc on both fists, but not on kick attacks.

I.E. instead of 18 additional hits in 100 attack rounds, its 36 from double attack with /war, brutal, epona's. 40 with twilight belt.

Assuming 10% proc rate from 5/5 af3+2, and a 22% Kick attack rate (Base+Merits+AF3+2 legs), that's generously giving 2 more hits per 100 attack rounds from the set bonus.

For PURE TP BUILD, Twilight+Fuma's+AF3 Head, hands, legs > BB + 5/5AF3+2. However the damage bonus on feet is going to outway that anyway, and the effect of double attack is lowered when using Atma of the Apocalypse.

Edit: I have hit 8 times in one attack round with Atma of the Apocalypse and 4/5 AF3+2 (I use the twilight belt+Fuma's to cap haste because Black Belt is too much of a time sink for a minor upgrade, if one at all when using Revenant Fists +2 and spamming Victory Smite. EVEN LESS of an upgrade considering the aftermath of Verethragna only procs on mainhand hits.) Meaning yes- TA and DA proc on both fists, but not on Kick Attacks.

[Rambus]

Someone told me about this thread and I was like well it might be possible if you are at cap haste, but this thing is you lose to much getting to cap haste on twilight belt::


Full af3+2 has 16% haste.

+ Twilight = 23% haste.

You have to swap af3+2 shoes to haste shoes.

Full af3+2 + black belt = 28% haste rounds down to 25 due to cap.

2% DA doesn't beat the kick dmg from af3+3 shoes along as 5/5 set bonus.

If you don't have black belt, even brown belt and af3+2 shoes will beat any combo you can come up w/ twilight.

Twilight is trash.
Thanks for the post, hopfully it dont come up anymore.
and:

just to tack on, to really cap haste, you're gonna need to use fumas, not usukane, so you're not getting the acc and att. 2% DA and 3 agi instead of capped haste, and the set bonus + the beefy kick attack bonus is a no brainer.

[Cream_Soda]

I was under the impression that Double Attack and Triple Attack could proc on both fists, but not on kick attacks.


They can. The math is still correct however. in 100 attack rounds would just be looking at 200 instead of 100 (i do that a lot for some reason).

% wise everything would match up applying it to 200 punches instead of 100.

[Greatguardian]

As noted above, Black Belt destroys Twilight before even taking AF3+2 procs into account. Going from 4/5 to 5/5 AF3+2 is a 2% increase (3% to 5%) to proc an additional kick, not affected by DA/TA. In essence, it's +2% DA in a separate term which is not affected by the (semantics, I know) decreasing returns of standard DA.

In essence, putting absolutely everything in the favor of Twilight and only looking at attacks per round, you have:

(Triple Attack rate) + (Double Attack) + (Kick Attacks) + (Minimum Punches) + (AF3+2 proc)

(0.18)(2) + (1 - 0.18)(0.20) + (0.15) + 2 = .36 + .164 + .15 + 2 + 0.03= 2.704 attacks per round with Twilight

vs

(0.18)(2) + (1 - 0.18)(0.18) + (0.15) + 2 + 0.05 = .36 + .1476 + 0.15 + 2 + 0.05 = 2.7076 attacks per round with 5/5 AF3+2.

You're not getting more DA procs with Twilight and Fumas. You're getting fewer. And your additional attacks with AF3+2 do *More Damage* than your punches because you're wearing D+45 shoes.

I'm beating a dead horse but I figured it was worth pointing out that Twilight doesn't even have an edge in attacks per round either. Seriously, there is no reason at all for any MNK to not use a Black or Brown belt.

[SNK]

Anyone who seriously uses a Twilight Belt for ANYTHING over a Black Belt doesn't deserve to have either. Terrible suggestion to even think that Twilight has anything over Black Belt...

[Alei_Bahamut]

Anyone who seriously uses a Twilight Belt for ANYTHING over a Black Belt doesn't deserve to have either. Terrible suggestion to even think that Twilight has anything over Black Belt...

I would use twilight for WS. Double attack proc on Ascetic's Fury [yes please]! I do not have Victory Smite but I believe it works the same way with double attack proc on it raising damage to even higher levels~

[Martinius]

I would use twilight for WS. Double attack proc on Ascetic's Fury [yes please]! I do not have Victory Smite but I believe it works the same way with double attack proc on it raising damage to even higher levels~


edit: i r teh dumb. you'll get more consistent results with black belt or an elemental belt, but twilight gives potential for spikes.

[Alei_Bahamut]

I don't think STR+7 is going to be a game breaker in Abyssea for consistantly high damage. By your logic you would have me switch to lolSTR and lolVIT rings instead of epona's ring. Or perhaps cuchulan w/e instead of Atheling mantle.

[Martinius]

yeah, i was actually coming back to the site to change my post lol, as i thought of epona's ring and realized it was a comparable item, and in this, i was stupid :)

[Neisan_Quetz]

Twilight belt is potentially worse for Fury than warwolf/elebelts, even inside Abyssea. Assumed RR/GH/Apoc atmas, useless for Asuran, loses easily for Smite last I checked. Epona's is not a comparable item, it has TA+3 as well.

[Martinius]

twilight belt will always be worse, except for when DA procs, but his point was valid that it has the potential to spike damage.

as for asurans, really, the only time you should be using asuran fists in abyssea is when trying to proc blue !!. and yeah, outside of abyssea, twilight belt is useless on AF, since asuran can't double attack or crit. you should just be using str/att and acc.

[Greatguardian]

If you want Spike damage, you're looking at Triple Attack procs with a STR belt anyways. For Victory Smite, Black Belt easily destroys other options (aside from Bier+1). A Warwolf belt augmented with Attack+ should still beat Twilight for Ascetic's Fury.

[Cream_Soda]

You also have to remember, DA procs are worth less for WS than they are for TP'ing.

Not only is the DA proc gives less damage (since auto 1.0 ftp), it also gives less tp.

[Cream_Soda]

Or perhaps cuchulan w/e instead of Atheling mantle.

Ok, so let me get this straight.

You're taking 2% DA and nothing else vs 7 str

and comparing it to

4 str vs 3% DA and 20 attack?


just want to make sure I'm getting your point clearly.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Clearly his accuracy is far below 50% with capped attack.

[Superchicken]

twilight belt over a black belt LOL, do you even have monk leveled?

[Manicora]

lol how is Black NOT easy to get. Can get it So easy now with very little time too.
I spent 2 weeks getting My belt, then helped 4 ppl get there belts within 1 week, Low man ftw.
Sorry if you dont think Im right, sadly I cant show you how easy it is unless you are on Lev.
BTW best i can do is Black belt in 2 days ToD off main 1st claim on Behemoth Then get Egg 1/1 off HQ and 2/6 off Ks99 Wyrm 2 blue Killed it within 5 min.
Hope you Succeed Monk is fun even with LOL Destroyers

[Musahashi]

Speaking of this haste cap, anyone noticed they did the same with +acc?

In all honesty, I can see why they did it. Empyrean isn't going to be level 99 gear, but there will be pieces you will use. Think about the next line of gear they're going to bring in, that might need the extra +haste or +acc that some of your empyrean will bring in.

Monk is a gear based job, I have 3 armour sets that I swap between throughout battle, so the full benefit of any full set will never be seen unless I decided to just sit and autoattack for the duration of a pty, but then your losing out on so much of mnk.

So guys, pick and choose, complain if you want to, at the end of the day it isn't going to matter. Either you forget about full sets and start working on the gear you need for certain weapon skills/abilities, or you accept that they're never going to bring out a full set that makes using macros redundant.

[Cupofnoodles]

Why oh why that hands have haste+ on it beats me?


makes your fist hit the mob faster??? lol

[Cream_Soda]

makes your fist hit the mob faster??? lol
You can cap haste w/o the hand slot (and have been able to since before the update they were added)

[Rambus]

edit: i r teh dumb. you'll get more consistent results with black belt or an elemental belt, but twilight gives potential for spikes.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Light_Belt
you mean those not the obis right? when i hear "elemental belt" my mind goes to black mage, maybe cuz i am mage main.

but obis can help ya do more sc damage >XD

i love light belt and light torque, works with sooo meny ws.

umm, they stack right?

[Martinius]

Yes, sorry I was referring to the elemental belts. Yes, their effect is cumulative.

[Tezz]

In the instance of a lesser MNK where blackbelt is out of reach, then i can sorta understand this. Perhaps they are a brand new player or a mule.

This is the best i can come up with in terms of favoring all AF3+2
(25% uncapped. without the remainder)
AF head+2: 7
AF legs+2: 7
Twilight: 7
Hands+2: 3
Neck: 1

Any math wizards care to see if the +2 justifies the last remaining haste % or not?

[Corres]

not a mule here but KS99 drops are so damn rare. needing the egg badly but not willing to pay 3 million gil for that.

[Cream_Soda]

In the instance of a lesser MNK where blackbelt is out of reach, then i can sorta understand this. Perhaps they are a brand new player or a mule.

This is the best i can come up with in terms of favoring all AF3+2
(25% uncapped. without the remainder)
AF head+2: 7
AF legs+2: 7
Twilight: 7
Hands+2: 3
Neck: 1

Any math wizards care to see if the +2 justifies the last remaining haste % or not?
Legs are 6, which puts you at 24%

Use brown belt

[GERM]

Well that is darn great because the poeple that worked for it to gain that item is just a waste of time
for them.

Anything pre abyssea is being considered a waste of time.. I read in a post today from SqEnix that they will not reduce the requirements for BB because raising the level cap has already did this but they are thinking of possibly bringing in a belt that is better then BB.. Now yes if you got BB before abyssea was released then no it wasn't a waste of time because it helped and even though you get it now its still a hard piece to get but it is still worth getting in that it gives more options to other slots and yes everything was hard to get before abyssea at some point in time but if it wasn't worth getting would you really wasted your time to get it?

[Tezz]

Legs are 6, which puts you at 24%

Use brown belt
This shit setup is not for me. It was for a hypothetical newb Monk that might be trying to justify a twilight belt. Basically, the only excuse is being dirt poor(not even an excuse) or too lazy to quest brown/black.

My Monk has Black Belt. Camped it with LS. I'm actually interested in SE's idea of creating an item "More Powerful than Black Belt". Can't wait to see what they're doing.

[Darka]

Except thats not what I am talking about at all, and I dont appreciate you twisting my words to fit your point of view.

If all you care about is DD, then twilight is better. If you are tanking and DDing yes BB would be better, but that is not what I said. Think what you want but dont change my posts to say what you want them to.

DD alone Twilight > BB, tanking/dding, yes BB is better.

I am talking about 1 piece of gear not a whole suit, not what you might have to change here and there, a straight up comparison of A vs B.

Wow, so in just a comparison between belts, you think 2% DA beats 5% Haste? Really? Never mind the 7STR and 3~4attack.

@OP, you need 26% Haste in gear to hard cap, due to rounding (each piece of % gear in the game is slightly lower than what it says by a small fraction, often rounding you out to about 24.6% Haste).
If you were to drop say, feet so you can cap Haste w/ Twilight and say, Usukane, you'd still weaken your DPS.

[Cowardlybabooon]

Admittedly, I did not read all 4 pages of the posts, so someone may have said this. However, there was a long standing debate for MNK whether Dune boots beat Fuma Kyahan. With the addition of haste on the hands, now one can wear AF3+2 feet, and get a nice boost to kick attacks damage, which will be further enhanced by multiple peices of MNK AF3+2 armor.

The simple answer is, it gives versatility. Attack and Acc are becoming useless stats in many cases as well, and people are turning to Crit DMG+ and Crit+. The combination of Atma, Food, Temp Items, and Cruor Buffs, as well as the 900 Job Abilities that MNK/WAR gets are making the original stats rather obsolete. SE has been smart enough to add new stat enhancements to make sure we stay active in getting new gear.

[Kriegsgott]

Simply put:
1) Not everyone has a BB
2) BB is not 'easy' to get
3) There are actually better belt options now (twilight) for DD

While you can 1 group most of the NM for BB the long camps arent worth the trouble. And the nm99 versions aren't much better, having spent 3 orbs and still not getting my wyrm beard.

I like the haste on the gloves, but I disagree that they should replace it with acc or atk. I would much rather have double attack. However the haste is needed to reach the cap if you use twilight belt which is far superior to BB if you can cap haste.

quit mnk plz....