A Puppetmaster Suggestion.

[Karbuncle]

Hello Official Forums peoples, I'm new to the 90Puppetmaster job, but i love it all the same. While the job itself is plenty powerful, There is one blaring concern i have with it.

Its Maneuvers. No I don't want to get rid of them, Just a small adjustment to them.

Maneuvers are a nice addition to the job in my eyes, The problem is, while they help the automaton in many ways, they hurt the Master. Thanks to the wonderful ~2-sec Delay from using a job ability, the act of keeping maneuvers up on your automaton will severely impact the masters overall DPS because of lost attack rounds.

This has gotten to the point some puppetmasters rarely use/keep maneuvers activated because their DPS outclasses the Automatons and hindering it isn't worth the extra bonus your automaton receives from Maneuvers.

I won't pretend to have a perfect solution to this, But I have a small one. Right now, Maneuvers last only 1 minute, My proposal is to Increase that duration. Maneuvers are still limited to a maximum of 3, making them last 3~5 minutes will simply limit the impact on our DPS.

You could, to balance, even adjust Overload rate accordingly, so you cannot simply spam the same maneuver due to elongated durations.

While its not a blaring problem to everyone, I think its one that should be addressed. I don't want to do-away with the Maneuver system, Simply to increase its effectiveness by limiting its negative impact on masters DPS.

[Kaiichi]

/signed.

Love the Idea. PUP is only 40 atm but I found the duration on maneuvers quite bothersome and eventually found myself to have only one or two on simply for the refresh effect.

[Xanaduu]

i never really noticed that much of a delay tbh, but that may be in part to me being a bit of a space cadet :P but yea, id like even a small increase in maneuver duration, longer they last, less we have to worry about~ unless an attachment kicks in that eats maneuvers :P, lately though i just been useing maneuvers as needed and either just cure myself when needed or (if its a DD frame) deploy and do my own thing. after a while though u will get used to it and will just become 2nd nature.
BTW! grats on 90^^

[Lessina]

Maneuvers never really bother me all that much. That being said I tend to only keep one or two up at any given time unless I'm using Spiritreaver, and if I'm using Reaver I'm oftn not in Melee anyways.

[Alhanelem]

Maneuvers actually barely delay you at all. And if you're swapping AF hands like you should be, the blinking out is often actually helpful.

[Karbuncle]

Maneuvers actually barely delay you at all. And if you're swapping AF hands like you should be, the blinking out is often actually helpful.

Its 2 seconds regardless of the Job ability, even switching gear, There is a universal 2sec delay between using a JA and when your next Attack round can begin.

While like i said its not catastrophe, It adds up over time, especially with 1 minute timer on Maneuvers, You lost 6-seconds of Melee every minute, this adds up to hinder your DPS a fair amount. Its to the point most higher-tier PUPs stop using Maneuvers because its not worth the loss in DPS.

This is especially more apparent if you're receiving haste or marches, where ~6 Seconds is a lot of lost damage and TP. (especially in Abyssea).

This would really only be an improvement to those PUPs who care about their damage output as much as they care about their Automaton working to his fullest, But i think its something that should realistically be addressed eventually :\.

Obviously if you're not meleeing there's no problem, But today most PUPs do Melee, and in the grand scheme of things using maneuvers in most cases hurts them more than helps them due to how often they need to be applied.

So yah, I don't think it "NEEDS TO BE FIXED RIGHT NOWZ", only that I'm wishing some time in the future they could triple/more the Duration of Maneuvers. Could simply adjust the Overload rate to compensate/balance.

[Alhanelem]

Its 2 seconds regardless of the Job abilityIt's not 2 seconds. I have made attacks much sooner than that after a JA. If you make an attack really close to the JA animation, you will not play the attack animation, but the hits still register.

One thing I wouldn't mind would be longer maneuver durations, such that you can pick a set of three and not have to rotate them constantly to keep them up. This would aid this really minor problem, and it would also make maintaining the effects you want much less of a hassle.

[Karbuncle]

It's not 2 seconds. I have made attacks much sooner than that after a JA. If you make an attack really close to the JA animation, you will not play the attack animation, but the hits still register.

One thing I wouldn't mind would be longer maneuver durations, such that you can pick a set of three and not have to rotate them constantly to keep them up. This would aid this really minor problem, and it would also make maintaining the effects you want much less of a hassle.

Its not from when the animation finishes, Its from the second you hit "Enter". there is a 2 second delay. The only exception I think is if a monster moves into range after you use an Ability which initiates Auto-attack. Outside of that If you're meleeing and use a Job Ability, from the second you hit Enter, not when the animation finished/etc, There is a minimum 2 second window to attack.

I'm not pulling this number out of my butt :\, It was tested a while back and i'm trying to dig it up as we speak.

Don't get me wrong, I know what you're talking about when you say "attack animation not showing but attacks still happening", It happens if you engage a mob while an action is happening on you too.

One second...

HERE!

http://shamayaasura.livejournal.com/10777.html

Edit: And yes, Longer Maneuver durations is all i want :(.

[StingRay104]

Longer manuever duration is a very good idea but I think it should be longer than 5 mins, hell rng used have to put up velocity shot every 5 mins now its a 2 hour duration and manuevers are about as effective, granted if you have something that eats manuevers then you'd have to keep putting them up but I see no problems with setting your auto for heal mode or a decent dd no eat mode and just rolling with it for a couple hours.

[AyinDygra]

I think the maneuver duration and recast of maneuvers have been carefully balanced with the whole "overload" mechanic, making such changes as longer duration maneuvers severely impact that part of automaton control. In addition, there is a lot of gear that manages overload chances that would have to be rebalanced to be useful again.

One Solution:
What if they added: When the master performs a maneuver, they also attack? This would mitigate much of the delay caused by the Maneuvers.


Alternate Solution:
Job Ability: Routine
Duration: 2hrs (like light arts/dark arts)
Recast: 5min
This Job Ability keeps three Maneuvers active.
* Maneuvers will not wear off until the duration of this job ability wears off.
* After 3 Maneuvers are set up, you are unable to perform maneuvers to overwrite existing maneuvers.
* Attachments that consume maneuvers still consume maneuvers.
* Consumed maneuvers can be replaced.
In this way, the overload mechanic is still in place for those who forego the use of this ability, wanting to issue rapid-fire commands that they expect to be wearing off as they replace them. Attachments that consume maneuvers may actually be desirable with this Job Ability, for when you want to change maneuvers without disabling this Job Ability.

[Karbuncle]

I think the maneuver duration and recast of maneuvers have been carefully balanced with the whole "overload" mechanic, making such changes as longer duration maneuvers severely impact that part of automaton control. In addition, there is a lot of gear that manages overload chances that would have to be rebalanced to be useful again.

I think a simpler solution would be to increase Overload rate proportional to the increased duration of Maneuvers. Making things more or less similar.

However, If your idea was level ~10 or so I'd be okay with it. Because i want this to help Low level PUPs as much as i want it to help us high level ones.

[Vagrua]

Supporting this.

[Siviard]

Hi Karbuncle

I love the ideas being tossed around here, but lets face it, I think it's pretty much a given that the GMs/Devs DO NOT read the Job sub-forums. I don't mean to rain on your parade, just being a realist.

[Alhanelem]

The problem being illustrated here is not entirely PUP-specific, and could probably be raised in the other sections (with a tie-in mention to how this often hurts PUP more than other jobs)

[Karbuncle]

It does feel like job sections get very little support or responses. However i have a feeling if we talk about it like that they'll think we're ungrateful and not respond :(. So i try to be optimistic.

Puppetmaster is growing on me, Its becoming one of my more favorite jobs, i fooking love Stringing Pummel beyond words, It is so amazingly strong (for the non-empyrean PUP :X). Honestly If i won rank1 bonanza i might get the Kenkoken lol.

Thats why i want these types of improvements, I don't need them to enjoy the job, I simply love the job and want it to be better. Maneuvers were to me an interesting way to implement the whole "Master and Puppet" feel to the job, I Just wish it was a bit less hindering to us as a whole.

The topic could stand to toss around a few more ideas if ya'll wanted D:, I'm all ears. I liked the JA Idea of keeping 3 Maneuvers up for xxx amount of time {locked} in. It gives it some balance too.

[Geebee]

extended duration of attachments would be a great improvement but I feel this will be more valued from hitting a certian level (lets say 60+) of maybe even at 99, I'm sure the merits will gain another overhaul when this comes out (hopefully)
as I have all my jobs fully merited already, so any exp I get in abyssea or elsewhere is wasted

[Jackastheripper]

I have been a 90 PUP for a while now and while I kinda see the issue, I don't think it is anything that needs to be fixed. The whole idea behind puppetmastering is that you have to tell it what to do. It's the whole point of the job. If you want to be a H2H fighter without the delay of stopping for a second and tell your auto what to do, try monk. It's all a part of of cost/benefits of playing PUP. I really like the idea of a job ability of extending the length of a maneuver though.

[xbobx]

I don't think it needs to be fixed, especially the bad idea of increasing the overload rate comparable to duration. There are many attachments that remove maneuvers. Which means you are still applying them fairly fast. That change would kill our autos and we would be back to having overload issues again.

No thanks. Please review your ideas before posting them, don't give them ideas to screw us.

[Yoky]

Only problem i see is people not using manuevers at all. Thats cause many pups just dont care. But then i really dont call them pup. I dont think its something that needs to be fixxed, never even phased me. I see longer durations just making pup more lol cause people still wont use manuevers or they will just get very lazy bout them and just let their automaton do what it wants. I keep 3 up at all times. So none of this was ever even thought bout.

[Alhanelem]

Only problem i see is people not using manuevers at all.Who can blame them? it's tedious to keep them up forever in a long EXP party, for instance, especially when their effect usually isn't something dramatic (Not saying its bad, just saying it doesn't make the user go "OMG WOW!" because its not like some weapon skill or other drastic move). If it was less tedious to maintain them, you could potentially decrease the number of "bad" PUPs.

[Karbuncle]

Who can blame them? it's tedious to keep them up forever in a long EXP party, for instance, especially when their effect usually isn't something dramatic (Not saying its bad, just saying it doesn't make the user go "OMG WOW!" because its not like some weapon skill or other drastic move). If it was less tedious to maintain them, you could potentially decrease the number of "bad" PUPs.

Actually, The pups who don't use maneuvers are generally the better PUPs. Its the PUPs who don't realize they're losing a large chunk of their damage keeping those maneuvers up that are the bad ones.

Obviously if you're not meleeing it doesn't matter, But if you are meleeing that JA delay really adds up over time, and has a large effect on your TP phase damage.

It is drastic enough that it needs to be changed. As i posted the link last page, using a JA imposes a delay of 120 (2 seconds) before your next attack can go, so you're losing 6 seconds of melee every minute keeping Maneuvers up 3/3, thats 10% of each minutes damage lost from keeping those abilities up.

Its a pretty blaring problem and if anything its just another target for the "lolpup" Crowd, I like the idea of Maneuvers, they just need an overhauling to make it less impacting on the Masters DPS, because the master is generally the stronger one and the DPS lost from using a maneuver is almost never worth the lost in damage from using it. especially trying to keep 3/3 Maneuvers up.

[Covenant]

@Karbuncle and his followers.... Oh please. The delay is based on the idea that Vanadiel is subject to physics. Meaning that thngs don't get to ignore Time and be instan casted. Even Redmages with Chainspell still needs a sec or two to fire of spells.

The "delay" argument much like the increased melee/haste wishes are deadhorse and abusing the system. This is a waste of breathe and energy to keep bringing up.

[Alhanelem]

The pups who don't use maneuvers are generally the better PUPs. Its the PUPs who don't realize they're losing a large chunk of their damage keeping those maneuvers up that are the bad ones.
That's basically the silliest thing I've ever heard. Nothing more to say than that.

[Karbuncle]

That's basically the silliest thing I've ever heard. Nothing more to say than that.

My Comment was in regards to if you're meleeing with your PUP. Obviously if you're using BLM or RNG Frame it varies because it won't impact your DD if you're not engaged.

I do not believe its silly at all, if you're a PUP and you're receiving Haste or Marches, Using a Maneuver is going to impact your DD by a significant amount over time if you chose to keep all 3 maneuvers up. You lose 10% of your DPS keeping 3 Maneuvers up full time. 10% is a big number in the grand scheme of a battle.

Using 1 maneuver isn't going to kill you, keeping 3 up every minute will.in theory its 6sec per 1min of your DPS gone. While it may not seem like a lot, compared to the nill-visible benefits your PUP receives, it adds up.


@Karbuncle and his followers.... Oh please. The delay is based on the idea that Vanadiel is subject to physics. Meaning that thngs don't get to ignore Time and be instan casted. Even Redmages with Chainspell still needs a sec or two to fire of spells.

The "delay" argument much like the increased melee/haste wishes are deadhorse and abusing the system. This is a waste of breathe and energy to keep bringing up.

lol. I cant tell if you agree or disagree. For the record assuming you didn't read the OP, I'm not saying to reduce the JA Delay, I'm saying to increase Maneuver duration so its impact is less apparent.

Obviously some players dont find a loss of 10% of their Damage to be a big problem, Theres absolutely nothing wrong with it. Some people play purely for fun and this isn't a problem to them.

However, i feel its big enough that it should at least be looked into, And i ask if you don't feel its a problem, say your piece and leave, rather than instigating. Other PUPs care about their damage output and their contributions, and Maneuvers being adjusted would go a long way to helping a PUP DD more readily.

So far I think my favorite suggestion was a JA to allow 3 Maneuvers to be "Locked" in for a duration of time, unable to change.

[Gael]

My Comment was in regards to if you're meleeing with your PUP

(...)

While it may not seem like a lot, compared to the nill-visible benefits your PUP receives, it adds up.


Here is your mistake sir. Yes you gimp your overall dmg. No the benefits for the automaton is not close to nothing, unless you dont have the correct attachments equiped.

Actually, the DPS you lost is largely compensated by the gain for your maton. I know that like 99% of ppl who think something, you wont believe a stranger so i suggest you to parse yourself (you and your maton), you will see that you are wrong on this point.

[esoR]

hmm.. if we could save a set of 3 maneuvers (in different configurations) and use a JA to put up all 3 in the same time it takes to put up 1, that would work to fix our dps issue .. (sorry if it's been suggested, that's what comes to mind)

kind of like macros for our macros. you could save 5 sets of 3 maneuvers? ex: (windx3, windx2lightx1, icex3, fire1light1thund1, light 1dark1,water1)

i agree if you put all this together, we would see a massive boost in overall dps. it would be a start to getting us on par with other dds.

[Karbuncle]

Here is your mistake sir. Yes you gimp your overall dmg. No the benefits for the automaton is not close to nothing, unless you dont have the correct attachments equiped.

Which Frame? The only exception i can think would be BLM Frame, where Reducing Spell Recast time and Gaining MAB would be a good boost. But I feel you're underestimating the Damage you deal as PUP if you're receiving buffs. If you're solo of course its not the biggest deal, If you're getting Haste/Marches like you would in a good party situation its where the problem begins to arise.


Actually, the DPS you lost is largely compensated by the gain for your maton. I know that like 99% of ppl who think something, you wont believe a stranger so i suggest you to parse yourself (you and your maton), you will see that you are wrong on this point.

i will go parse this, if anything to strengthen my belief i am correct. If it turns out you're correct, I see it as no big deal, because regardless of the benefit, Keeping Maneuvers up does still require the sacrifice of 10% of the PUPs-Masters DPS, Which is i feel a problem for the job.

Either way knowledge is knowledge, and if i am incorrect i will in fact admit it. Would you like me to test in or out of Abyssea? or both?

[Gael]

i tested with rng and war frame the day we got the new WSs for this two frames and it was in abyssea (imo it's even better ouside abyssea)

For the buff, i had only haste, it's hard to get a BRD or a COR in an abyssea pt :'(

[xiozen]

I've been playing the job since it's inception to the game and this idea (increasing the maneuver duration) is really not necessary---the OP states it ends up hurting the master's DPS... we're not monks... I know you're new to lvl90 puppetmaster but if you have monk at lvl90 as well, i can somewhat understand your position. The maneuvers, as they are, work fine. All jobs require a form of balance--perhaps this is puppetmaster's balance. The Automaton is the job (or at least 1/2 of it) and the master is the other half...the maneuvers are how we control our automaton--if we focus on using the automaton's maneuvers less often, in order to increase the DPS of the master--we, in effect, are acting more like Monks...but gimped monks, since we're lacking much of what Monk has that makes it an awesome DPS DD job... so I think your suggestion would, ultimately, hurt this job, not help it... by taking the focus off of where it should be... our automatons...not ourselves.

If you want to focus on DPS, lvl or play Monk.... my opin.

[Karbuncle]

I've been playing the job since it's inception to the game and this idea (increasing the maneuver duration) is really not necessary

I respect this opinion. How would you feel about a JA that allows you to lock in 3 Maneuvers for a Duration?


---the OP states it ends up hurting the master's DPS... we're not monks... I know you're new to lvl90 puppetmaster but if you have monk at lvl90 as well, i can somewhat understand your position.

I feel this is irrelivant, SAMs are not WARs, but their objective is DD. PUP's objective is DD, their Empyrean Armor, the increase in h2h Skill, Martial Art Job Traits, and so on all lend to their DD ability. The PupperMASTER is much and far stronger than the Puppet, Rather this is an oversight by SE or what have you, It is still a fact.

My only goal is to make PUP less "lOLPUP" in the eyes of the community, relieving the stress of sacrificing our damage so often i think would help a bit...


The maneuvers, as they are, work fine. All jobs require a form of balance--perhaps this is puppetmaster's balance

I agree with you that All jobs require balance, I feel like PUPs "Balance" was a bit to lopsided, for lack of better words. I can't think of another DD job that, in order for a part of it to be effective, they are required to use 3JA per minute, sacrificing 10% of their DPS, with little to show depending on when/where/frame.

The benefit as I am testing might outweigh the loss... Even so i would still feel rather strongly that something should be done about Maneuvers to make it easier for the PUP to keep them up full time without the loss to their damage.

Like I said above, My favorite idea is allowing 3 Maneuvers to be locked in for a period of time, unable to change. this create some balance (not being able to change) while helping the master maintain a damage.


The Automaton is the job (or at least 1/2 of it) and the master is the other half...the maneuvers are how we control our automaton--if we focus on using the automaton's maneuvers less often, in order to increase the DPS of the master--we, in effect, are acting more like Monks...

The problem is, In a lot of situations (not all), Acting like gimp monks and not using maneuver is actually better for your damage, the thing you're designed to do. Thats why i was upset about it. i DO want to be a Puppetmaster, But i don't want the trend of "LOLPUP" to continue, sacrificing 10% of our damage every minute is "lol", especially when in some cases the Automaton doesn't even make up for that loss (I.E high Haste Situations, Or if you've ever owned a Vereth and know what Victory Smite is and how doing that 10% More often > anything your maneuvers do)


but gimped monks, since we're lacking much of what Monk has that makes it an awesome DPS DD job... so I think your suggestion would, ultimately, hurt this job, not help it...

I'm quite sorry to ask, How is increasing a Puppetmasters Damage output, One main thing they're designed to do, hurting the job? I feel this is biased, I think i might be hurting your Role-playing style of the job, I can admit, But it would not hurt the job in any way by any stretch of the imagination.

I'm not asking to remove Maneuvers or erase the Puppet, I'm asking for something that lessens the negative impact of keeping maneuvers up. nothing more.


by taking the focus off of where it should be... our automatons...not ourselves

I do not feel this is a valid reason. The automaton will still be at your side, fighting with you, Skillchaining with you, Casting Spells, Shooting Bolts, and what have you, the only difference is now you can actually keep up your damage with it, contributing more to the party.


If you want to focus on DPS, lvl or play Monk.... my opin.

I do have MNK90, But i don't believe i will fault in my belief that PUP is a DD job, and what good is a DD that cannot DD? This OP update to Maneuvers would serve nothing more than to help the job. There would be no negative to longer durations.

But, SE already stated lengthening maneuvers would be nigh impossible, so perhaps that JA suggested might get considered...

[Dfoley]

The way i look at it, i add 10% haste mediocre atk/acc and some DA when I use maneuvers while meleeing beside my pet. I only use the maneuvers however in-between pulls and not during a fight. Until our pets get strong enough to merit the time spent on JA delay though, karbuncle is right and its not worth it.

If a single wind took our pet to 40 % (25gear+15 spell that most people sit at) I would deem it worthy
If a single fire added the same atk to our pet that a bard can add to us (100ish) I would deem it worthy

Adding +20 atk at 90 is paltry and insignificant 99% of the time.

[Gael]

lol i like how ppl changes the value when they need to argue on something :
- 1 wind is 15% not 10% of haste (16.5 % if the optic fiber affect it)
- mediocre att ? you said +20 att... i wonder from where you got this value. You should usually have at last 2 att attachments, let say tension spring 1 and 2, even w/o fire maneuver you have more that +20 att (should be around 50 actually, w/o fire maneuver), with 1 fire up and this 2 attachements, you kinda have the same att boost that a brd can give you with his best minuet (assuming 5/5 merit on minuet and assuming a +3 instrument), and if the optic fiber affect it, the boost is a bit better if you compare it to Valor minuet V
- mediocre acc ? what are you doing with accuracy attachments in abyssea ? even for the rng automaton you dont need them. You should always have a thunder maneuver up, that mean critical hit rate +5%, DA +10% (5.5 and 11% if the optic fiber affect them)
Outside abyssea the accuracy boost (assuming you need accuracy) is really big, look the bonus of the Target Marker alone...


And stop to stay that we lost 10% of our DPS, it's wrong. Most of time we do the maneuvers between 2 fight, during the time we run to a mob, etc.

The problem in this topic is that you underestimate the gain FULL TIME for your automaton, and you overestimate the lost on this 0-6 sec per minute.

[Karbuncle]

lol i like how ppl changes the value when they need to argue on something :

Giving him the benefit of the doubt he likely forgot the numbers like i do when it comes to that attachment.


- 1 wind is 15% not 10% of haste (16.5 % if the optic fiber affect it)

My problem is, Its like casting haste on a Full AF1 WAR using Axe and skilling it up from 250 on IT mobs. Yah he's attacking 15% faster but he's hitting for 1/3rd of the damage anyone else is hitting for, and they're attack 2x as fast still.

My problem isn't that attachments are underpowered, Its that they don't last long enough to keep it worthwhile to use them during combat, as they were intended. As you even say yourself below, and as the guy above me said, most PUPs dont bother using Maneuvers in combat, Only when Idle, why? Because its not worth their DPS hit.

My OP suggestion would do nothing but help this. and the suggestion to Lock maneuvers would as well.


- mediocre att ? you said +20 att... i wonder from where you got this value. You should usually have at last 2 att
attachments,

I usually go for Inhibitor, Tension Spring II and Attuner (As on stronger mobs i think removing % of their Defense is > Tension Springs bonus), and that leaves 1 fire spot left, I sometimes throw on Flame-Holder.


-mediocre acc ? what are you doing with accuracy attachments in abyssea ? even for the rng automaton you dont need them. You should always have a thunder maneuver up, that mean critical hit rate +5%, DA +10% (5.5 and 11% if the optic fiber affect them)

I was actually sorely disappointed at the power of the Critical hit Attachment, 3/3 Man's gives i think +6%? But Coiler is nice, however neither of those help you if you're using RNG or BLM frame (since the RNG frames ranged attacks can't crit, But they're fixing this soon i hope).

and from what i hear most PUPs use RNG frame for best DD.


Outside abyssea the accuracy boost (assuming you need accuracy) is really big, look the bonus of the Target Marker alone...

I almost always put on target marker lol>_>, depending on the frame.


And stop to stay that we lost 10% of our DPS, it's wrong. Most of time we do the maneuvers between 2 fight, during the time we run to a mob, etc.

Its not wrong, I'm completely right in my assumption that using Maneuvers during combat does remove 10% of your DPS. Because it adds 6sec per 60 on your delay.

if you use them outside of combat (which i actually mentioned) Its nil and will not effect your DD of course.


The problem in this topic is that you underestimate the gain FULL TIME for your automaton, and you overestimate the lost on this 0-6 sec per minute.

I don't underestimate anything, You're numbers are nice and you make it seem like the Automaton is getting some huge boost. But lets face the reality for a second, our Automaton is a great asset, but Ever seen a Vereth PUP with Haste/March? Or maybe just Marches? 10% more damage from him would absolutely wreck any benefit your auto gets from a Maneuver.

Using them before battle, nothing is lost and thats not the discussion though. The problem isn't Soloing in low haste situations, Its in party situations where you usually chain-pull mobs and there is no wait between fights to maneuver up. These situations if you want maneuvers it costs you.

Yes. There are situations where you work around this, like using maneuvers before fights. but that gives you a whooping 40 seconds of 3/3 Maneuver once you've activated all three. Which is probably enough for 1~2 fights, but seeing as you have downtime between fights it's likely only enough for 1.

This is why, and I guess my original point is being lost, I was asking for Maneuvers to be extended, or like someone suggested, a JA To lock a certain set of Maneuvers in for a specific time.

Not asking for a nerf, Just an improvement to a system.

[Gael]

Giving him the benefit of the doubt he likely forgot the numbers like i do when it comes to that attachment.

Yes and no because the main point is about the lost we have when we use maneuvers and the gain for the automaton.
(actually this sentense was more for the "20 att" which pop from idk where... when i read it, it was like a bad faith for me)



My problem is, Its like casting haste on a Full AF1 WAR using Axe and skilling it up from 250 on IT mobs. Yah he's attacking 15% faster but he's hitting for 1/3rd of the damage anyone else is hitting for, and they're attack 2x as fast still.

This sound strange for me so right after i read your answer, i went in abyssea Grauberg to see if i had the same thing. On my normal melee set (click on here to see it) (http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/174916), with VV, RR and apoc (+cruor buff), i killed 10 peak pugil. My dmg on normal hit was between 89 and 148, my critical hit was between 230 and 359 dmg (outside a set effect)

w/o maneuver, my automaton did between 85 and 154. 189 and 380 for critical hits.

Same test with the rng automaton, 10 fish, same atmas and w/o maneuver : 99-186 for normal hits, and 237-319 for critical hit (every thing outside the bonus added by armor shatterer)

Ok the test was small, but it was enough to see that the dmg is not gimped like you said, it seems pretty close to my damages



My problem isn't that attachments are underpowered, Its that they don't last long enough to keep it worthwhile to use them during combat, as they were intended. As you even say yourself below, and as the guy above me said, most PUPs dont bother using Maneuvers in combat, Only when Idle, why? Because its not worth their DPS hit.

2-3 ppl here who doesnt use maneuvers and you already talk for "most pup" lol. You know in my server, 90% of time i see a pup in ally, he doesnt have a maton to fight with him (imo because the job was leveled in abyssea and the skills are very low), that not means its the good way to play the job

Again when i read you, i feel like if you you compare your full DPS instead to compare the gain/lost during the few seconds you use a maneuver. Did you try to parse yourself to see the difference even only 1h of each way ?

Anyway i read somewhere that SE will increase the boost given by attachements so i just hope that it will be enough to convince all the players who think like that.


I usually go for Inhibitor, Tension Spring II and Attuner (As on stronger mobs i think removing % of their Defense is > Tension Springs bonus), and that leaves 1 fire spot left, I sometimes throw on Flame-Holder.

Inhibitor ? that a strange choice, the gain (in any situation) of this attachment is not really good, actually it should kill your DPS a lot (TS 2, attuner and Flame-Holder are better options imo)


I was actually sorely disappointed at the power of the Critical hit Attachment, 3/3 Man's gives i think +6%? But Coiler is nice, however neither of those help you if you're using RNG or BLM frame (since the RNG frames ranged attacks can't crit, But they're fixing this soon i hope).

and from what i hear most PUPs use RNG frame for best DD.

ya this attachement sucks suck a bit imo (3/3 = 9% btw) but its a little boost (i mean when you equiped all offenssive attachements, and when you still have some empty room)

It's true about the fact that ranged att cant crit (for now at least) but the melee att can. And again after you equiped all offenssive attachement, you should have a room for him lol, even if its a small boost it increase your overall DPS at the end.

And it's not true, most pup doesnt use the rng automaton to DD, most should use it lol.
The problem in abyssea is that mobs move often and die very fast. The rng automaton is nice when he can tp and when the mob doesnt move. so unless you fight a worm or something which doesnt move, the rng (which is the best frame to DD, i agree with you) is not the best option.



I almost always put on target marker lol>_>, depending on the frame.

inside abyssea lol ? you tried to see his accuracy w/o it ? (assuming the skill of your maton are capped)


Its not wrong, I'm completely right in my assumption that using Maneuvers during combat does remove 10% of your DPS. Because it adds 6sec per 60 on your delay.

if you use them outside of combat (which i actually mentioned) Its nil and will not effect your DD of course.

No its wrong cause based on the fact that you will fight a mob 60 sec w/o interruption, w/o use any ja (like diploy, berserk, warcry, agressor, ws, ...), assuming you ONLY use ja during a fight and not between.
The problem (which is imo the main problem here) is that you are too focus on the theory.


I don't underestimate anything, You're numbers are nice and you make it seem like the Automaton is getting some huge boost. But lets face the reality for a second, our Automaton is a great asset, but Ever seen a Vereth PUP with Haste/March? Or maybe just Marches? 10% more damage from him would absolutely wreck any benefit your auto gets from a Maneuver.

Yes. There are situations where you work around this, like using maneuvers before fights. but that gives you a whooping 40 seconds of 3/3 Maneuver once you've activated all three. Which is probably enough for 1~2 fights, but seeing as you have downtime between fights it's likely only enough for 1.

This is why, and I guess my original point is being lost, I was asking for Maneuvers to be extended, or like someone suggested, a JA To lock a certain set of Maneuvers in for a specific time.

yes you didnt understand. You are saying that there is almost no gain from maneuvers so no reason to use them. I'm saying with official numbers, that the lost you have in your DPS when you use a maneuver is compensate. The proof on it is the perception that ppl have about the gain for the automaton : "Adding +20", "mediocre atk", "some DA", "he's hitting for 1/3rd".

Again i'm not saying that the attachements are OMFG but it's far away of the perception you have.

Yes i saw a pup with vere. I am this pup lol, and i had haste (march is very rare >_<), but again you are talking in theory. Mobs die fast enough to let you the time to cast maneuvers w/o problem, unless you wait the full duration to recast them ? idk for you but i kinda use a maneuver every ~12 sec in pt, the mob doesnt stay alive enough time lol

In a real pt situation you cast maybe 1 maneuver during a fight but that all, at least at lev 90.


(btw i know we are both camping on our positions but i like this kind of debate, w/o insult, stress, ... long time i didnt see something like that :P)

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btw i heard something strange today which join the topic : Someone said me that if you use a ja between 2 punch (on the same att round i mean), you dont have the 2 sec delay, anyone know something on this ?

[Karbuncle]

Yes and no because the main point is about the lost we have when we use maneuvers and the gain for the automaton.
(actually this sentense was more for the "20 att" which pop from idk where... when i read it, it was like a bad faith for me)


Yah, I can agree.



This sound strange for me so right after i read your answer, i went in abyssea Grauberg to see if i had the same thing. On my normal melee set (click on here to see it) (http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/174916), with VV, RR and apoc (+cruor buff), i killed 10 peak pugil. My dmg on normal hit was between 89 and 148, my critical hit was between 230 and 359 dmg (outside a set effect)

w/o maneuver, my automaton did between 85 and 154. 189 and 380 for critical hits.

You were attacking faster yah? But i did specify "in non-haste solo situations its less of a problem" :X This sounds like a Non-hasted Solo-Situation.


Same test with the rng automaton, 10 fish, same atmas and w/o maneuver : 99-186 for normal hits, and 237-319 for critical hit (every thing outside the bonus added by armor shatterer)

Ok the test was small, but it was enough to see that the dmg is not gimped like you said, it seems pretty close to my damages

I think hit for hit yah, But you were likely attacking much quicker and your WS's will do much more damage than his. over time You > Puppet by a long shot. probably more than double. Which just gets worse the most haste you have.

But i see more or less the point here.


Again when i read you, i feel like if you you compare your full DPS instead to compare the gain/lost during the few seconds you use a maneuver. Did you try to parse yourself to see the difference even on only 1h of each way ?

10% is going to remain 10% no matter what though... I don't think I'm reading this right, But rather its a 1 minute parse or a 1 day parse, 6 seconds per 60 seconds will remain that :X regardless of length.

This is assuming you're using them in combat... Of course if you're not its more a nil problem.


Anyway i read somewhere that SE will increase the boost given by attachements so i just hope that it will be enough to convince all the players which think like that.

I wouldn't mind a boost to Attachments too.


Inhibitor ? that a strange choice, the gain (in any situation) of this attachment is not really good, actually it should kill your DPS a lot (TS 2, attuner and Flame-Holder)

Inhibitor is the Store TP/SKillchaining one yes? Always figured it was one of the better ones based on the TP Gain, thought it was a bit better than 6% Attack (Since i don't know if theres any info at all on an Automatons Base attack, i Can assume ~350 if combat skill works like ours) so 6% with 1 Fire man' up would be about +21 Attack... Suppose i could be doing i wrong. >_>


ya this attachement sucks suck a bit imo (3/3 = 9% btw) but its a little boost (i mean when you equiped all offenssive attachements, and when you still have some empty room)

I have a hard time evening out my attachments, They should increase the Elemental slot size for some..


inside abyssea lol ? you tried to see his accuracy w/o it ? (assuming the skill of your maton are capped)

No. Not inside abyssea. Obviously. That would be retarded and i cant even believe you yourself believe that. I don't think Abyssea is a good base line for anything, as it skews so much.


No its wrong cause based on the fact that you will fight a mob 60 sec w/o interruption, w/o use any ja (like diploy, berserk, warcry, agressor, ws, ...), assuming you ONLY use ja during a fight and not between.
The problem (which is imo the main problem here) is that you are too focus on the theory.

Im not seeing much change from Theory and Practice. 6 seconds is 6 seconds. The Delay is given when you activate the JA, If you want to say the fight lasts 30 seconds? You keep all 3 Maneuvers up you're now losing 6 seconds per 30, which is even worse.

I'm speaking on averages, Its generally the best way. If you're in combat using maneuvers, no matter how long a fight is, On average, if you keep Maneuvers up 3/3 at all times, You lose 6 seconds of Possible attack rounds.

Of course there are some circumstances, I.E Using it before Combat, Using them Inbetween Switching Targets, etc, where this is not applicable.


yes you didnt understand. You are saying that there is almost no gain from maneuvers so no reason to use it.

No im not, well, If it came off that way sorry i was unclear. I'm saying the Benefit you gain is generally not worth what you would lose in your DPS. which even now i see might be wrong. but im still not entirely convinced..

I also said this is less and less apparent in solo/low haste situations, and becomes a much bigger problem if you're receiving haste/marches.

and also admitted multiple times its not a problem if you use them outside of battle, but also pointed out thats hard to do in some heavy-pulling scenarios, or say, an NM fight, or long battles.


I'm saying with official numbers, that the lost you have in your DPS when you use a maneuver is compensate. The proof on it is the perception that ppl have about the gain for the automaton : "Adding +20", "mediocre atk", "some DA", "he's hitting for 1/3rd".

Exaggerations, I know, Coulda sworn i said somewhere it was an Exaggeration, I must have been thinking of another post... But the "+20" and "some DA" weren't my words.

In their defense though, +20 is kinda mediocre attack boost in the grand scheme of things. But +~50 like it does add with TS I/II is not that bad.

But +20 Attack is apparenty > Store TP from Inhibitor, so its better than that.


Again i'm not saying that the attachements are OMFG but it's far away of the perception you have.

You could be right, In fact if you are I have no qualms admitting it, If you wanted to run the parse for me you can.. I have a hard time parsing things because i can never get them to work...


Yes i saw a pup with vere. I am this pup lol, and i had haste (march is very rare >_<), but again you are talking in theory. Mobs die fast enough to let you the time to cast maneuvers w/o problem,

You keep all 3 Maneuvers active full time in an Exp party situation while seemlessly attacking enemies o.o? You are pretty good if thats the case.

But a problem might arise if you're fighting an NM, no? Ones like ... Deelgeed, or Itzpop, stuff like those that generally last longer than the ~40 seconds your Maneuvers remain up after setting all 3.


unless you wait the full duration to recast them ? idk for you but i kinda use a maneuver every ~12 sec in pt, the mob doesnt stay alive enough time lol

Usually i recast them before they wear off yes, So i suppose the idea of using a Maneuver every seconds would work. Would that not eventually run risk of Overload however? if i recall overload decays rather slowly, using 1 maneuver in theory every ~36 sames (Same element i mean) would run the risk of overload after about 5 minutes or so yah?


btw i heard something strange today which join the topic : Someone said me that if we use a ja between 2 punch (on the same att round i mean), you dont have the 2 sec delay, anyone know something on this ?

Newp :X, You still gain that 2 Seconds. basically using a JA adds 120 delay to your next attack round, sometimes it nigh unnoticeable, but its there.

You know, You're rather intelligent in your words and i like how you almost don't result to insults. I can see you love the pup job, and i can see you know your stuff.

I ask you this, Instead of the OP idea, How would you feel about the "Locking" Ability to keep a set of Maneuvers up for a certain duration?

[Gael]

lol the answers (mine include) start to be very long, i will try to do a bit shorter.

First, you have the to know that in my language "you" is the same word for "Karbuncle" or "Karbuncle + others", so dont worry if dont only use your words xD


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yes i attacked faster than my automaton (because of my gear and because i didnt use maneuver) but my point is still here with or without haste : let say you do 1 more attack (6 puch if you TA both) during the 2 sec. How many more att you think that your maton will do with +15% of haste during 60 sec ?
Even if you used 3 maneuvers during the same fight -you never do it- the gain from your DPS is still better that dont use maneuvers

I will try to give you a parse, but to be honest with you, i'm capped on exp/merit so i will probably wait the next level increase which is in something like 2-3 weeks ?

About the inhibitor, yes it's the one which help you to do a skillchain with your maton, my problem is that it will wait to use his TP and at the end it gimp your DPS

Your right about the fact that it's not the same thing on NMs (any NM), but usually try to not melee to limite the tp gain (and i use the blm auto).

About the overload, it's fine cause i dont spam the same element (and i never use the same element when i'm 3/3, usualy thunder - wind - fire) and because i use all the items which prevent it (collar, af 1 hands and body)


About the rumor, i'm happy it wasnt true, it's hard to focus all the time on the moment to use a ja lol.


Last thing until my break on this topic for few weeks (until the level increase) is about your idea : i love it but with the current system (which erase the maneuvers with some attachements) i'm not sure about the risk to lock the maneuvers xD
But if SE remove that stupid idea which erase maneuvers i will vote for you for sure

[Dfoley]

lol i like how ppl changes the value when they need to argue on something :
- 1 wind is 15% not 10% of haste (16.5 % if the optic fiber affect it)
- mediocre att ? you said +20 att... i wonder from where you got this value. You should usually have at last 2 att attachments, let say tension spring 1 and 2, even w/o fire maneuver you have more that +20 att (should be around 50 actually, w/o fire maneuver), with 1 fire up and this 2 attachements, you kinda have the same att boost that a brd can give you with his best minuet (assuming 5/5 merit on minuet and assuming a +3 instrument), and if the optic fiber affect it, the boost is a bit better if you compare it to Valor minuet V
- mediocre acc ? what are you doing with accuracy attachments in abyssea ? even for the rng automaton you dont need them. You should always have a thunder maneuver up, that mean critical hit rate +5%, DA +10% (5.5 and 11% if the optic fiber affect them)
Outside abyssea the accuracy boost (assuming you need accuracy) is really big, look the bonus of the Target Marker alone...

Actually gael my post was 100% right and i didnt forget any numbers at all.

1 wind adds 10% haste.

0 wind is 5%, 1 wind is 15%, thus 10% haste was added....

The rest holds true but if even the most obvious statement like that was to complicated for you, there is no need to explain the rest.

[Dfoley]

let say you do 1 more attack (6 puch if you TA both) during the 2 sec. How many more att you think that your maton will do with +15% of haste during 60 sec ?
Even if you used 3 maneuvers during the same fight -you never do it- the gain from your DPS is still better that dont use maneuvers



Stop being lazy and theoretical.

SS base dly is 400 - 9 swings / min
With Coiler + Apoc atma - Roughly 11 swings / min
Add in turbo charger - 0 wind maneuvers (5% haste) - up to 12 swings per min
Add in a single wind maneuver - up to 14 swings per min


Now for the master:
Assuming apoc/gh/rr and sub war
DA = 20%
TA = 18%
spell haste = yes
Weapon = verethragna

You are looking at roughly 1 attack round every 4 seconds. Thus using 3 maneuvers in a 60 seconds period will cost you 1.5 attack rounds (8 swings on average)



Overall net:
Pet gains 10% haste (2 more swings per min) you lose 8 swings per minute. The gain is not worth the time spent because the master hits harder, has better ws's, and better dmg per hit.


Dont make stuff up and not back it up.