BLU/MNK

[Kwate]

Just curious, has anyone really given this a serious go? I look at the abilities and I see some real potential. I'm starting to find /NIN pretty lacking lately only using 3 tools, NI, snk, invissy. /RDM is fun, but very situational. As a career BLU I'm always open to other options. Any thoughts?

[Scuro]

I haven't given this job class a serious go since breath spells went to shit post 80. And honestly.... I just find BLU/MNK to be pointless imo.

[Zagen]

I haven't given this job class a serious go since breath spells went to shit post 75. And honestly.... I just find BLU/MNK to be pointless imo.

ftfy breath spells were always crap for the MP used.

[Kwate]

Seriously tho guys, does counterstance as a sub still give you 50% on counter? Boost prior to ws, Dodge for an evasion boost, Focus for a bit of accuracy, damage of course will increase ever so slightly from the natural STR of Monk also, why wouldn't it be taken seriously? I just see a lot of potential here. I guess I'll level and perform some tests.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Unless you're the sole tank against a monster with rapid weak attacks, going to agree /mnk seems pointless over /nin or even /war assuming you're benefitting from zerk and aggressor.

[Demonofhunger]

I assumed the point was that with /MNK and the right atmas, you get like 90% Counter rate. Combine that with our two Blinks it's near-prefect defense on high-end enemies. That's even before you try Eva tanking.

[Neisan_Quetz]

What 90% counter rate... first off, the cap is 80%, with CS that puts you at 50%, GH +10% and Roaring Laughter 12% ... not seeing 80%.

[Kwate]

I assumed the point was that with /MNK and the right atmas, you get like 90% Counter rate. Combine that with our two Blinks it's near-prefect defense on high-end enemies. That's even before you try Eva tanking.

Exactly, I'm going to give it a shot at least, my curiosity is killing me on this. Even at 50% counter (plus our shadows) and potential damage boost why not try it? I'll keep you guys updated once I level it, if no one else tries it first.

[Scuro]

Breath spells were good at 75 against HNMs due to the fact they were unresistable, and as long as you had a set for it, you could do 2k worth of damage, they were the only thing a BLU could do decently except Cannonball SATA, but idk thats before most of you BLU's time there when we weren't as much of a bad ass job class as we are now. They didn't get crapy until the practicality of the job expanded as it is now.

P.S
Don't change my posts, I know how they are said, because I write them. K, thanks.... Nobody likes ftfy posts ;-) Their rude.

[Kwate]

Forget breath spells, everyone (including myself) are more or less comfy with the /nin cookie cutter mold, which was fine at 75. With Occultation and counterstance being available at 90, other options seem viable.

[Zagen]

Swords have crappy weapon damage to do it. I mean you don't see nin/mnk or thf/mnk popping up.

Counter is nice for spell interrupts but that would only apply to slower magical spells at best.

The max HP is a wash inside Abyssea.

Also using Roaring Laughter imo is a waste of an atma slot even for fun.

It could be fun that's all I see it being though.


Breath spells were good at 75 against HNMs due to the fact they were unresistable, and as long as you had a set for it, you could do 2k worth of damage, they were the only thing a BLU could do decently except Cannonball SATA, but idk thats before most of you BLU's time there when we weren't as much of a bad ass job class as we are now. They didn't get crapy until the practicality of the job expanded as it is now.

P.S
Don't change my posts, I know how they are said, because I write them. K, thanks.... Nobody likes ftfy posts ;-) Their rude.
My mistake I didn't know you had 3500-4k HP at 75 >.> and that 3.5k would have to be on lol lizard family sorry don't see you landing heat breath unresisted regularly on Genbu/Adamantoise/Aspid at 75 even at 90 I'd doubt it.

Ya ftfy posts can be annoying and can be rude but really breath spells sucked at 75 outside of Besieged fun on charmgaed players.

[Scuro]

I can agree with you that spells weren't grand, but unfortunatly at the time, its what we had. Now lets focus on this MNK idea..... it's a bad idea, much as those that tried to spin off BLU/DRK and were met with how low our magic is in those other types of magics to land drain, aspir, and absorb spells. While it sounded sweet, it was nothing more then just fluff to cover the crap that was the sub job. We have no innate skill in it, we have meh evasion, and we have not guard skills, thus making this no different then /DRK. While it is sweet because you get the attack bonus on DRK.... thats really about as far as it goes. While I have not subbed /MNK since the end of the 75 era, I see definitely no point in it now. The reason why we are stuck in the /NIN mold is because it relies on little skill to be practical. Its not that no one is willing to expand on these other jobs, its that other jobs don't share native skills with our class because our clas is fairly limited. In terms of magic we only have Blue Magic Skill, we have sword, parrying, and evasion as our primary skills. This is why jobs such as /NIN, /THF, and /DNC are still practical to today (not so much /THF since spike damage is already nasty, but eh ya never know if we get out of Abyssea it might actually make a come back). The only reason /RDM is on the top is because it has spells that are good buffs, and namely convert and refresh. If this class didn't have these for the sheer magical purpose of our job class, we would probably avoid it much as the other classes. So again, its not that these frontiers have gone unexplored, its that they are an empty room of possibility with nothing to create with.

[Tashan]

BLU/MNK

Just curious, has anyone really given this a serious go? I look at the abilities and I see some real potential. I'm starting to find /NIN pretty lacking lately only using 3 tools, NI, snk, invissy. /RDM is fun, but very situational. As a career BLU I'm always open to other options. Any thoughts?



It's an alternative support job for tanking purposes. It's main attractions are Counter and High HP.

It was introuced to me by Draylo on Bluegatr forums. Here are his original posts:



Been tanking a lot lately and I've found /mnk to be awesome. Used to do tanking as /nin but I've since changed to /mnk for most of it unless I really need the grellow proc from /nin (which I normally don't). Counterstance + Counter + GH is nice for countering majority of the attacks in addition to the 8 Occultation shadows.



I find it extremely helpful tanking mobs that have fast attack speed or mostly anything since you gain extra dmg and the added bonus of not having to cast shadows lol. Can get around 70% counter rate.


I have a 70% counter rate with trait + counterstance + GH. I would think /mnk would out damage /nin, you get the dmg from counters and no lost melee time due to casting shadows. Also in certain fights where mob attack speed is an issue, such as Amphitrite or other faster attackers, it would definiately be more beneficial than /nin. I always had a lot of trouble keeping shadows up when tanking Amphitrite due to his attack speed but /mnk and it was np.



His atma setup is Gnarled Horn, Razed Ruins and Apocalypse. I have since levelled /MNK, tried it and agree with everything he's promoted. He also posted an image showing it vs Bennu.

Unless I need to proc yellow trigger as /NIN or need shadows where Blink cannot suffice (which isn't often) I always tank as /MNK.

[Tashan]

Seriously tho guys, does counterstance as a sub still give you 50% on counter? Boost prior to ws, Dodge for an evasion boost, Focus for a bit of accuracy, damage of course will increase ever so slightly from the natural STR of Monk also, why wouldn't it be taken seriously? I just see a lot of potential here. I guess I'll level and perform some tests.

Yes.


Unless you're the sole tank against a monster with rapid weak attacks, going to agree /mnk seems pointless over /nin or even /war assuming you're benefitting from zerk and aggressor.

Works well against any monster, not weak ones only.


What 90% counter rate... first off, the cap is 80%, with CS that puts you at 50%, GH +10% and Roaring Laughter 12% ... not seeing 80%.

You forgot the counter trait.


Exactly, I'm going to give it a shot at least, my curiosity is killing me on this. Even at 50% counter (plus our shadows) and potential damage boost why not try it? I'll keep you guys updated once I level it, if no one else tries it first.

Seek out Draylo. He's one of the best Blue Mage's in FFXI. If you want further information, he's got it.

I also recommend Nightfyre.


Swords have crappy weapon damage to do it. I mean you don't see nin/mnk or thf/mnk popping up.

Counter is nice for spell interrupts but that would only apply to slower magical spells at best.

The max HP is a wash inside Abyssea.

Also using Roaring Laughter imo is a waste of an atma slot even for fun.

It could be fun that's all I see it being though.


1. Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it's not there.

2. Counter is nice for spell interrupts. But I don't think that's why MNK's use it.

3. Roaring Laughter isn't neccesary, neither is capped Counter. 70% is easily achievable enough.


can agree with you that spells weren't grand, but unfortunatly at the time, its what we had. Now lets focus on this MNK idea..... it's a bad idea, much as those that tried to spin off BLU/DRK and were met with how low our magic is in those other types of magics to land drain, aspir, and absorb spells. While it sounded sweet, it was nothing more then just fluff to cover the crap that was the sub job. We have no innate skill in it, we have meh evasion, and we have not guard skills, thus making this no different then /DRK. While it is sweet because you get the attack bonus on DRK.... thats really about as far as it goes. While I have not subbed /MNK since the end of the 75 era, I see definitely no point in it now. The reason why we are stuck in the /NIN mold is because it relies on little skill to be practical. Its not that no one is willing to expand on these other jobs, its that other jobs don't share native skills with our class because our clas is fairly limited. In terms of magic we only have Blue Magic Skill, we have sword, parrying, and evasion as our primary skills. This is why jobs such as /NIN, /THF, and /DNC are still practical to today (not so much /THF since spike damage is already nasty, but eh ya never know if we get out of Abyssea it might actually make a come back). The only reason /RDM is on the top is because it has spells that are good buffs, and namely convert and refresh. If this class didn't have these for the sheer magical purpose of our job class, we would probably avoid it much as the other classes. So again, its not that these frontiers

have gone unexplored, its that they are an empty room of possibility with nothing to create with.

I can't see why you still use /RDM inside of Abyssea. No matter what you're doing there are too many MP recovery options to make it a support job worth using. Even for spell spamming (which you should not be doing due to the enormous lack of tp control) it's not needed.

I only use /RDM for Charged Whisker Burns.

/NIN is the best damage dealing support job for Blue Mage. Nothing any other support job provides matches /NIN's additional 10% Delay Reduction with Dual Wield 3.

My only other thought would be if you are counter tanking and increasing damage from that. If you find that difficult to believe think of it from a different perspective. ~70% of your opponents melee attacks are negated and granted to you as an additional attack.

[Zagen]

1. Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it's not there.
Sorry don't see how NIN/MNK or THF/MNK is gonna kill Sobek any faster than NIN/WAR and THF/NIN.


2. Counter is nice for spell interrupts. But I don't think that's why MNK's use it.
If I'm counterstance tanking on MNK I'm /WAR for Berserk so I don't see your point.

Edit: Picked Sobek randomly not saying it's the only one just first NM that came to mind.

[Tashan]

Sorry don't see how NIN/MNK or THF/MNK is gonna kill Sobek any faster than NIN/WAR and THF/NIN.

Don't think I suggested it was.

---

Your original statement was:



Counter is nice for spell interrupts but that would only apply to slower magical spells at best.

Counter is nice for spell interrupts. But I don't think that's why MNK's use it. It's used on BLU for the same reason, to counter.

[Zagen]

Don't think I suggested it was.

---

Your original statement was:



Counter is nice for spell interrupts. But I don't think that's why MNK's use it. It's used on BLU for the same reason, to counter.

My mistake assumed 1 was a response to the first line about NIN/MNK and THF/MNK popping up, at which point my retort is valid.

Edit: Counterstance as far as I use it is for 2 reasons;
1. To mitigate damage
2. To add additional damage.

Considering a good chunk of a BLU's damage comes from Spells the fact that Counter prevents interruptions makes it appealing to a BLU.

That said since sword has a weaker base damage than a MNK's H2H I don't see it adding more damage than /NIN.
As the additional damage value is reduced then the damage mitigation is also reduced when compared to Utsuseumi.

[Kwate]

Just hit 45, only had time to do a few tests /mnk, I used the birds in M. Coast (not Abyss). I started off initially with no shadows to see the effect of Counterstance on the first 5 fights. CS activates approximately 55%-60% as stated, damage I did receive when being hit was tripled (eyeballing it).

Damage I did receive without CS 45~80 vs CS 175~225 per hit so there is clearly some risks there.
Next 5 mobs I fought I normally with blinking, with CS active maybe got hit 1-2 (melee only, no WS or spells) times per fight. But I will do alot more testing on different mobs in different areas to get a better feel for it.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I didn't forget the trait, Counter rate caps at 80% (give or take accuracy check) period, you can't achieve a 90% counter rate. This was tested by Appie with Spharai+Relic Feet+Roaring Laughter+Gnarled Horn. Counterstance sets your counter rate to 50% before accuracy/evasion checks, the trait is ignored.

thread: http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/102665-Crit-PDIF-Distribution-and-other-interesting-data

EDIT: ignore this if you didn't think the cap was 90%, reread your post.

The counter for damage comes down to preference/backline/monster, if you have a Whm that can handle it you're better off having them cure you and you going /Nin for damage. Comes down to counter damage versus 10% DW.

[Scuro]

I just do /RDM for doing proc'n and for magical set ups against some beastly NMs. Thats about it. Its still a very valid subjob with MP set aside. It also has some nice other qualities, but yes that is the main reason I use it. I still do /NIN out of Abyssea and if I'm solo'n. Yet I find Occultation covers me pretty good. Yet this is not about /RDM, its about /MNK, and yes I have to agree, in comparison to /NIN /MNK just does not seem valid enough. With the appropriate eva gear and atma, coupled with shadows, there really just isn't a means to beat it. As I said before, in a hypothetical way /MNK is about as valid as /DRK when DD. On the base it sounds pretty sweet, but in the end, it just doesn't cut to snuff when you put it on paper.

[Defiledsickness]

breath spells were good because regular blu spells did ZERO damage on HNM's back at 75. you could hit a normal mob with disseverment and 1-shot it, but go up to a hard nm and it'll only do 5dmg. breath spells were the least resisted dmg, thus they were used (or you had to lvl another job)

however, hp is still very relevant when a mob can 1-shot you and blu has no migawari-type spell. the only time i could see /mnk being better then /nin is when you fight mobs that are too damn hard to make shadows worth casting (stuff like Shinryu is very common in abyssea and at some point counter would catch blocking 1 extra hit per shadow). even with capped haste you cant cast shadows back to back on blu, as we aren't evading 50% of the time.

not to mention how many abyssea mobs will AoE you as soon as you cast Occultation (which has a long ass recast timer)

[Zagen]

(stuff like Shinryu is very common in abyssea and at some point counter would catch blocking 1 extra hit per shadow)
Just wanted to point out Shinryu is a horrible example just like all the Ironclads his melee attacks are TP moves which means Counter can't proc on them.

[Inafking]

(http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Cobra_Harness_Set) + (counterstance) + (Khanda +2) I use this combo when I fight lots of lower things at once.

[Kwate]

To the guys saying /mnk is useless, you haven't tried it, so it's hard to validate your argument. It's pretty damn good, especially when shadows are down (you barely get hit when even casting Zephyr Mantle anymore, which is nice), you're offsetting 50% of the melee coming at you, I'll be doing alot more testing in the coming days, but seems pretty potent vs. fodder mobs.

[Zagen]

To the guys saying /mnk is useless, you haven't tried it, so it's hard to validate your argument. It's pretty damn good, especially when shadows are down (you barely get hit when even casting Zephyr Mantle anymore, which is nice), you're offsetting 50% of the melee coming at you, I'll be doing alot more testing in the coming days, but seems pretty potent vs. fodder mobs.
Who cares about fodder mobs? Those who are saying /MNK is useless (myself and a few others) are saying useless on mobs that matter not fodder mobs.

[Kwate]

Who cares about fodder mobs? Those who are saying /MNK is useless (myself and a few others) are saying useless on mobs that matter not fodder mobs.

Yep, I'll find out soon enough. You're entitled to your opinion, but my point is there are other viable options on /job we can use.

[Scuro]

Well more power to ya, I care to see the results, the BLU in me that wanted to experiment with various support jobs and break the mold of the community standard..... Died in my years ago. Now I do what is deemed best, and I do it best. Thats the way I choose to play my BLU, I used to be a huge supporter of BLU/SCH under Smudgey. Now I do community standards. So I would care to see these results, however I'm already under the impression they will come to the conclusion those that disagree with it are stating, that it won't be up to snuff. But as i said, go get em' lol.