RDM's ~ a new outlook on Enspell, enfeeblement, and melee'

[Covenant]

First off, I posted this suggestion under a different thread but felt it deserved it's own thread.

As a RDM, I often look at what I would love to see certain things. As we move forward to lvl 99, I'm left wondering how SquareEnix will keep the balance between nuking, solo enhancements spells, enfeeblement, and melee damage. Is tacking on an additional tier to all existing spell enough? MY answer is NO.

There come a certain point where spell strength clashes with job distinctions. What makes a redmage different from blackmages(nukers), scholars, and WHM? It's the ability to melee AND enhance/enfeeb.

Im so tired of just adding another level of spells. RDM are never going to compete with blackmages nuke strength, nor a WHM curing capacity, no a samaurai's melee damage...no should we. However with a little tweaking SE can create a new series of enfeeblement which requires RDM's not only to melee, but to do so continually to maintain the enfeebs at optimum levels.

The new Enspell I propose are "En-status". Combining the Enspell 2 model with enfeebling magics would truly bring Redmage to the front line. While regular Enspell 2 damage and elemental resistance effect were lacking, I imagine a status effect while starting weak would decrease a mobs resistance to status effects and increase effect potency to a cap.

Thes are some of the "en-status" effects I propose...

Enaddle ~ (aka Addle 2).
Enparalyze ~ (paralyze III).
Engravity ~ (gravity II)
Enshock ~ (stun%)
Enslow ~ (slow III)
Enpoison ~ (poison III)
Endia ~ (not India, dia IV)
Enbio ~ (Bio IV)
Enblind ~ (Blind III)


All these spell would initially start at a values slightly lower then the proceeding tier and quickly cap at maximum values. The duration effect would be totally dependent on whether a mob resisted initial strike, but as their resistance fell based on repeat striking by redmage, would take effect and build to cap. As such duration is based on whether a mob is alive AND a redmage continually striking it.

As such, I imagine a strong decay effect would kick in if a RDM stops swinging. Or, NM natural resistances would kick in(unable to stun for example). That being said, I can imagine Enbio, endia, and Enpoison having particularly strong returns on both HP/tic but effects.

I was playing around with the idea of 2 Enspell being activated at a time(only while dual wielding). That is, a dual wielding RDM can have only ONE elemental and ONE status Enspell up. Perhaps, halving initial effects but can still cap effect.

[katz]

I can understand some of them, I think, but how will the poison dia bio work with the tp feeding aspects of the spells. Most of the spells you listed are over time spells. The first hit counts but then your next say 7 hits wouldnt. Not sure what to think really. Id much rather see enguard or enparry where the next mob hit was either guard or parried or missed based on the percentage of your guarding or parring skills

Edit I knew there was something else bothering me about them, how would the other bio (blm casting) interact with the enbio for example

[Seriha]

If it's just the status, no thanks. Like it or not, damage has been a factor in our "poor contributions" over the years, and with how little enfeebles are actually desired on fodder mobs we might not get our butts reamed for swinging at, giving up a modest percentage of our already hurting damage potential is a no-no. Apply the debuff chances to existing enspells, sure, but using them alone won't really change anything.

[Covenant]

It's not initial striking, each proceeding strike would lower a mob resistance until finally it "lands". The build up would be quick for regular mobs, and slightly slower for NMs. As far as the 3 spells, dia, bio, and poison. Their cap values would be a higher HP per tic rate, and their status effects whether def down, ATT down, or straight damage down, or are initial damages. However, initial damage as when first "landing" a bio or dia as with spell version would be at a capped value stronger than regular Enspell 2's(say 40-60 range unresisted) It's as if a redmage keeps recasting an enfeeb until each swing gets an garuanteed 100% unresist.

As far as what overwrites what, the overwrites function much the same way where dia < bio. Nothing would overwrite these unless the effect quickly wore off due to decay, other than another enstatus swing. For example, if a BLM were to cast bio II, a redmage could use Enpoison(aka poison3). Both could effect a mob. However, if a BLM were to cast poison 2, the Enpoison would overwrite poison2.

Most regular spell last from 30sec~150secs depending on resists. Perhaps, the additional damage per swing would have to be bumped up so that it's important for redmages to keep swinging. But SE would still need to balance the effect down. If enspell2 are let's say an additional 32pt plus eleMent resistance, then these enspells would at the very least have to cover the 32pt damage plus an additional HP/tic. Poison 2 is 10p/tic, so Enpoison should be +15~20 range in addition. The total then should be sword swing plus 32~50 give or take depending on skill.

[Eeek]

These proposed en-debuffs would be absolute overkill on trash mobs. On NMs, it's not always advisable to have an adept support mage in melee range and feeding TP to the NM. This increases the likelihood of dangerous NM TP moves. Furthermore, it strains the party/alliance backline by both removing a support-capable mage from the backline and adding another person, in melee range, who takes damage and needs status cures.

Can a melee RDM cure and support? Sure. But if they do that, it runs counter to the whole concept of en-debuffs. A casting RDM is not swinging their sword and intensifying the debuffs.

These proposed en-debuffs might only be useful in conditions already incompatible with melee RDM. Most RDMs would completely ignore the en-debuffs and continue casting the traditional debuffs from outside an NM's AoE range.

[Hyrist]

This idea has been regarded over and over again, and, honestly, is not deserving of it's own thread.

An En-enfeeble would have to be crippling in order for it to reach the goal for RDMs being accepted in the front lines, or it would have to be something useful and unique to RDM.

As far as damage output, that depends entirely on how useful the utility we gain is. The less critical our 'reason' for melee is, the more damage accessibility and overall output we need to gain.

[katz]

Dont know what to call it but what about en spells to boost the other members of the party when mobs are struck. Thinking along the lines of en TP boost that diminished over time but gives a reason for RDM to be a front line job. When the mob is hit by any one they get an additional amount of TP back bit like the way the dancers give everyone a little bit of HP back when they samba.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Where is this "new" outlook? This has been said before.

[Covenant]

On which "forum"? Perhaps, not new for everyone just me. I just didn't want to give redmage another tier of enfeebs, since lower tier tend to be unused, whether were talking fire or fire 2.
I actually agree with SE on enspells 2. Redmages are NOT supposed to be out melee'n other regular melee job. They're mostly solo enhancers and enfeeblers.
Really, I'm not even arguing that redmages have to be in the front line 100% of the time. That's why common sense and "battle strategy" comes into play. The lower tier enfeebs can still be used outside of range, and if a party is afraid of feeding TP, there are myriad ways to eliminate the risk. Whether multiple Bluemage spells that erase TP, a darks absorb-TP, or scholar?

What I hear from players is, "a certain mob is resistant to X". Even with X skill in enfeeble magic, certain mobs resist... Think of all the sleep, gravity, and stun resistant mobs. This option can go past a regular "skill" level by requiring what most parties don't want, a melee'n RDM. Would most parties still want this, if mobs could now suddenly become stun able again. Or sleep able or whatnot.

I envision a enfeeblement, stronger than what's available to all jobs. Take the ninja elemental wheel/resistant down and BLM freeze. Enspells 2 failed for a lot of reasons, but this one aspect of lowering resistances, hurt particularly. Yes, you don't want to gimp this ninja ability, but this isn't the role of a ninja...even if it is these should be secondary. Why should RDM's swing multiple times to only build a -10 elemental decrease, when ninjas just cast once?
All I'm really suggesting is changing styles of play and functionality, not necessarily increase a RDM's personal damage outputs.

[Mageoholic]

I would much rather see a line of damaging magics that are based off enfeebling magic. Demi's for example, and possibly a change to Gravity to give a DoT as well as the weight.

My idea for Demi's would be a strong DoT (20-30HP/tic @ T1) that last for 30 seconds or so then it pops for the amount of damage that it ticked for (so T1 being 300 DoT+ 300Hit) somewhat like a revers Helix.

Imo Enfeebling is kind of in a stagnant position currently and I think a unique nuke/dot system would favor RDM, not only in its solo work, but provide it a uniqueness when grouping. More over, I would like to see more Dots applied to RDM, if anything I would love to see the Elemental enfeebles given to RDM over the next several levels, Its odd that BLM has more enfeebling power overall then RDM.

[Alukat]

Enstun proc rate is determined by mobs ressistance. procs much less on NMs as on normal mobs.

[Covenant]

I just had a thought, even though RDM's melee accuracy and damage is crap(without better gear) we do have few things going for us. Magic attack traits, fast cast, enhancing skill, and a fair range of weapons.

What if a new Enspell was introduced called, "en~"formless strikes"? Much like a Monk's "Formless Strike", RDM's could bypass the normally heavy evasion and defense of some of the higher mobs and do magic damage. Conceptionaly, let's say a redmage when can land against a tough-IT/NM mob does 50damage/50 Enspell damage. This new Enspell would create a a 100pt damage "mini nuke". Since we do have the highest enfeeble/enhance skill, we would not need to rely on elemental nukes(and low skill and tiers). Yes, magical resistance would drop the damage, but there are plenty if ways to boost magical accuracy and MaB.

[Supersun]

Formless Strikes isn't magic damage.

[Defiledsickness]

fyi Rdm is not suppose to melee, they are suppose to enfeeble (A+ enfeebling skill). the tools Rdm has to melee are just so you CAN melee. its like saying a smn is suppose to melee because they gave it weaponskills.

i do enjoy being able to tank a mob when gravity doesnt stick, but rdm need more tools to assist DD jobs not to make it a better DD. we would be even worse off if they gave us more balance rather then increasing our effectiveness in a group. adding TP to mobs that can whipe a whole ally is not exactly a good idea at this point of the game.

[Swords]

Most wouldn't be freely meleeing on those types of mobs anyways, and really TP arguments are pretty moot if you have more than 2 people on the mob.

In any case, out of all the jobs in this game RDM has been the only one that's undergone an entire redesign. Originally it had been designed to be a backup tank like a mini-PLD, but it did not have any distinguishing characteristics and it's melee skill was just pitiful (Like D dagger, and C+ sword skill). When RoZ came out and jobs with more specialized positions became available outside of the original six, SE redesigned RDM to have a greater position and viability in the group (back when parties were actually balanced). In doing so they increased our dagger and sword skill to B, took away our flash and regen II, brought our enhancing and enfeebling up and gave us a slew of new buffs/debuffs to work with. So I do think SE had intended for RDM to be a position filler where it could fit in the front or backlines.

However, SE had continued to release and buff specialized jobs, and I honestly think SE tried too hard to keep RDM as a designated enfeebler for fear of overpowering it and letting it specialize in more than one utility. Now they've done the one thing they said they'd never do and raised the level cap, breached the level 37 subjob and allowed any job to reach into RDM's repetuar and utilize almost everything it has to offer. Essentially, the raised level cap, let jobs become more specialized in more than one thing (even if its somewhat limited), and RDM's lack of specialization outside of debuffs basically landed it on the backburner as a subjob that can cast a few more enfeebles and weaker BLM nukes.

[wildsprite]

fyi Rdm is not suppose to melee, they are suppose to enfeeble (A+ enfeebling skill). the tools Rdm has to melee are just so you CAN melee. its like saying a smn is suppose to melee because they gave it weaponskills.

i do enjoy being able to tank a mob when gravity doesnt stick, but rdm need more tools to assist DD jobs not to make it a better DD. we would be even worse off if they gave us more balance rather then increasing our effectiveness in a group. adding TP to mobs that can whipe a whole ally is not exactly a good idea at this point of the game.

this is a typical old way of thinking, and most likely the reason RDM has been gimped in the tank department which they were good at, and yes before you try to argue it, I know more than one RDM that used to be able to out tank the best tanks till SE gimped it, as for your TP arguement, well that is a good reason for the en-spells, to give damage without adding TP to the mobs, but most RDMs overlook the enspells

[Eeek]

BRD and /BRD was once able to tank thanks to the massive hate from Mazurka spam, but like RDM, SE did not envision either job tanking and dealt out the nerfs (although it did take SE longer to nerf RDM tanking).

I'm fine with the Enfeebling/Enhancing focus for RDM, but RDMs will need an expanded repertoire to find future success in that role. Also, SE needs to make some sort of adjustment to the high-level NMs so that RDM's top-notch enfeebling talents actually matter on fights that matter.

[Hyrist]

I'm fine with the Enfeebling/Enhancing focus for RDM, but RDMs will need an expanded repertoire to find future success in that role. Also, SE needs to make some sort of adjustment to the high-level NMs so that RDM's top-notch enfeebling talents actually matter on fights that matter.

This.

Call it dated, but I refer to my Red Mage the same in XI the way I do in all it's previous games. Casting duties are usually reserved for the situations that call for them especially. For cannon fodder, it's usually better to just break out the swords, save the MP for when it's needed, and slaughter away. (The adaptation for FFXI for that of course is haste and refresh.)

Bosses, that's when our casting really comes into play. The problem is the outright resist rates and immunities. And they tied our two ways of breaking down our enemies magic resistance to our melee. :confused: When something's that resistant, I'm not going to break out my sword on the mob JUST to get a very slightly higher percentage of landing.

When I call for more utility, it's to bring RDM back up to par against lower end, non boss notorious monsters. 'Boss' Mobs and HNM content is usually a no go even for me. (With the exception of certain mission bosses depending entirely on the mission.)

However, people who spend all of their time in Endgame/Boss content. See arguments for enhancing melee performance get up in arms waaaay too easily.

[Covenant]

Exactly my point Hyrist. I'm not saying, he'll just cause I can melee let me tank X HN! Big boss. I'm actually thinking more in the solo terms. I'm perfectly happy to stay back away from deadly AoE and helping the party out. As far as enfeebs...what are they? Bio or dia, poison, blind, slow, paralyze, addle? That's what 5 secs of casting? Enhancing are incredibly slower to cast.

I see RDM as casting a quick cycle of enfeebs at start of fight, enhancments in-between fights, and melee after enfeebs. There's a lot of magian trials that drops a mobs resistance, yet if you were to tally the lists you always see the damage weapon in top slots followed by the MaB choices. The enfeeb branch is rare. I've made my redmage 2 swords. 1 is the magical evasion down and magic defense down to help party and my own nuking.

I usually see bluemages with the opposite, which is their own magic accuracy and MaB for some reason. I also intend to get these for solo purpose, but as a RDM I prefer the above one. Now, since I wanna melee to give my party those effects, what should I do when people say. Don't melee? This is especially so, when people complain that I can't land an enfeebs. SE has given us the tools to land this spells we just can't get out of the "old" mentalities of straight damage only.

As for the "en-formless strike" I understand what formless strike is...once again when I use quote, I'm admitting NOT ha ing a better name for something. I just use a concept people already understand as filler. What is the complaint of redmages melee? Accuracy, mob defense, weapon strength, and TP feeding.
If SE somehow exchanges straight melee, we can eliminate the need for high ATT and skill of normal melee attacks in exchange for magical damage. RDM's are supposed to be good at enspells, enhance and enfeeb magics? If so this is another reportoire, that makes up for their Enspell 2 "lack of damage".

[Defiledsickness]

the people who disagreed with my post didnt read all of it! i said i love that i can tank/solo when i need to! rdm is perfectly great at that. yes they did take out the Enmity rdm spells used to have in order to conform it to the back line, but you can still tank. just dont have better dd's attacking your mob! its the same as XP parties used to be (yanno, where the people worked together not just zerged EP mobs).

MITIGATE HATE and use actual strategy. When a blu thought he was a big boy the mob would smack him back down to red HP or death. then he would be more careful and LET the tank, Tank. you shouldn't be able to keep hate over a dd spamming DMG who doesnt get hit while you take the beating.

rdm is perfectly capable of soloing hard ass nms. they dont need more Enspells or dmg spike abilities, they need new enfeebles and enhancements. this will make them better dd's as well! rdm has almace, they dont get berserk next.

[Hyrist]

rdm is perfectly capable of soloing hard ass nms. they dont need more Enspells or dmg spike abilities, they need new enfeebles and enhancements. this will make them better dd's as well! rdm has almace, they dont get berserk next.

I disagree with enspells. I'd like to see more enspells that function as a utility rather than just a damage perk. Something that better represents our enhancing/enfeebeling nature.

But overall, I agree. We need more melee buffs. These in turn will feed back into our performance. Whether or not some of these buffs are single target only I'll leave to SE to determine, but our HNM party presence seems woefully soft. And our performance on fodder mobs in the front lines could use a boost. These problems could probably be solved together.

[Covenant]

Ot that I don't agree with the above statement, just that people throw out the empreyean weapons as if theyre the standard weapons. A lot of players are working on it, players shouldnt treat any of these weapons as the "normal".

I look toward the future and so what if we get the next tier of enfeebs? A paralyze 3 or whatever. SquareEnix is still a cheap company hiding behind game balance. Most of the new enfeebs will only probably have an additional 5% of effects, if that. Break was an amazing addition...that is until players realize it function exactly like sleep. One hit brakes pertification for some reason.

There only one move that SquareEnix could make to really make Redmages shine again and that's if they were the only job to be able to break the standard caps of things like haste. Haste, unfortunately I think is overdone in my opinion. Though if Redmages were to get Haste II and/or Hastaga II.

[Sortis]

Good idea with the En-spells pretty much turning us into a Mystic Knight type character, i'm all for it!