Reopened: How can Empyrean be better than Relics?

[Korpg]

Original found here (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/10666-DEVS-How-can-empyrean-be-better-than-relics)


I did count something like 21,000 empyrean weapons are made and only 6000 relic weapons from the census? If this is so, how is empyrean so much better than relic? This is ridiculous. What is going to be done to fix this. I await developer response.

Reopening this because there was no reason for this to be closed. Neither was the topic going offtopic nor anyone starting to call the original poster anything, but he is just locking his own topics to prevent further discussion.

My opinion:

Empyrean weapons are much easier to make, and can be done within a week, while a relic has to take more than a month and a mystic has to take more than 3 months to finish.

Include in the fact that empyrean weapons are generally better than the relic and mystic counterparts (with exceptions of Mandau and Nirvana, with a few more for jobs that are not interesting to me), there might be a strong reason why there are over 15k (not 21k if you take out the level 80 versions of the weapons) emp weapons out there.

Personal note to Alienmonkey: Don't bother trying to lock threads, somebody will just reopen them. In this case, me.

[Ravenmore]

I have more respect for mystic holders then I do for 99% of relic holders, hell even emp. weapon force you to atleast be in the zone more then 3 times to finish. I do see it taking people longer now to finish a relic if they don't farm them selfs since gil is by far easiest it been to get since the D.box duping glitch.

[Korpg]

There are only a few mystics really worth the time to make, one of them I know: Nirvana.

[Ravenmore]

I seen that Even if the relic is better then mystic it still only makes the player enter dyna 3 times, everything else and be bought out of bazzars or off the AH. That though was the best case many LS leader used other to farm the currancy with the possibility they could be next in line for one. Not say thier wasn't shell that didn't hold true they were few and far between. Then there were those that did buy gil to fund in part or whole the cost.

I'm not dismissing the usefulness of most relic over mystics but mystic offer more challenge then just having the gil to finish it.

[Airget]

Ya an Empy weapons "magian trial" consist of fighting a series of NMs, then VNMs, and then obtaining items. For the first 2 parts you can group up and not have to compete for the mob, but after that with the items it does take more time.

For relic it's obtain currency, materials, an item from glacier and xarc, then to get it to 90 it's kill an obscene amount of mobs with using WS for finishing blow, then beat some boss NMs in the dyna areas and then kill the NM that was attached to your glacier quest requirement lol. Considering the two the above is a lot less hassle for a greater reward compared to what relics offer.

Then mythic is just a big mess of pre-reqs with it's own currency that require one to go across a broad range of events to obtain what they want, granted the only competition persay would be obtaining alexandrite since the rest can just be grouped to obtain I believe.

Using Great axe as an example it's
Name-DMG-Delay-Info
Brav--133-488---ACC +35, Eva down -30, Occasionally does 2x dmg "Ws offer Def down and decreases dmg taken"
Uko---131-482---STR +15 Aftermath: Occ does 2x dmg
Conq--129-504---Berserk IV (Let's say 45% if it goes up 5% each rank) Aftermath (Acc/Att/Occasionaly att twice)

In terms of difficulty I would say
Mythic>Relic>Empy
In terms of strength I would say
Empy>Relic>Mythic

This is all just opinion based on the info given but with the following I see
Bravura:
Pro:
Ability to replace ACC gear with strength
Occassionaly att twice always active
Def down on WS
DMG taken reduced with Relic WS use
Con:
Lack of any WS mod to help with dmg

Ukon:
Pro:
Strong Weaponskill
STR mod on weapon
Con:
Occ does 2x dmg only effective as aftermath (granted it could be challenged by the fact that aftermath will always be active once used since TPing is pretty fast to an extent so there may be a few second you are actually without the occ deal 2x dmg mod)

Conq:
Pro:
Berserk Mod
Con:
Weak aftermath
highest delay of the 3

Overall in order to fix relics and even Mythics to an extent SE needs to consider how to make them their own unique tool.

When SE made them I think they considered
Relic=Heavy Damage + enfeeble
Mythic=Job specialization
Empyrean=Heavy Damage

The problem lies with the overall utility given with relics, with the example of Great Axe to an extent while on paper it looks like a great tool with the use of /nin and shadows the act of reducing dmg taken isn't as good as it should be.

With Mythics the overall job utility isn't fairly balanced for each job leaving some jobs with weak specialization while other jobs get ones that are actually good for them.

Empyrean is basically the tool which a majority of players use as their main strat which is dealing the most amount of damage as possible and taking the foe down as quick as possible.

In terms of utility I think it should be
Empyrean: Heavy Damage
Mythic: Job specialization
Relic: Hybrid Heavy damage + Job specialization

In this instance Empyrean would have an equal damage dealing weapon towards Relic and Mythic would offer the most specialization but Relics would be able to balance themselves with Damage and specialization which overall if done right should outshine the two.
Name-DMG Max-Ability Max--Ability Max
Bravu-160------Berserk III--Defender III(reduce dmg taken 6%)
Ukon--160------None-------------------------------------------
Conq--140------Berserk VI--Defender VI(reduce dmg taken 10%)

Basically the idea is to try and draw a unique nature for each weaponry, if you just want straight up damage you go for Ukon, but if you want a weapon with heavy dmg and some job specialization you aim for Bravu, finally if you are more intersted in augmenting your job's abilities you aim for Mythic.

With this change in mind they should allow the Reilc/Mythic to be more customized based on the user's preference, by allowing unique mods be added to the weapon.

When you look at Mythics as a whole you'll notice that to an extent it's a big mess of what were they going for, some weapons have trait augment, others have 2hr augments with stats and then others are abilities and stat augments, or just ability augments lol.

NIN, WAR, SCH Mythics:
NIN=MACC, Enmity +, 2hr augment
WAR=Berserk Augment
SCH=Weather: ACC, MACC, Enmity -, MAB

Considering the above it seems pretty imbalanced. I would say that judging from the three SCH has a decent augment for itself it's only downside is needing weather active to make use of it. If I were to revitalize Mythic I would allow the user to create their personal augments on it, like the add-on rewards.
Let's say your base point value is 20 and with each magian upgrade it goes up 10 so by 90 you would have 50 points to work with.

Now for Conquerer I would say:
Att/Acc augment=5 points
Ability augment=10 points
Trait augment=5 points

So let's make Conquerer a
ATT +10, ACC +10
Bereserk augment
Double Attack augment

Then at 80 you gain 10 points to work with so you could do
ATT +20, ACC +10
Bereserk augment
Double Attack II augment

With this idea one thing to keep in mind is the level of a trait can't go above the rank of the weapon so at most by 90 the same stat can only be augmented up to IV.
85
ATT +30, ACC +10
Bereserk augment
Double Attack III augment
90
ATT +40, ACC +10
Bereserk augment
Double Attack IV augment

It's just a quick idea that would make mythic/relics a more enjoyable objective to obtain over the empyreans which focus purely on damage. I"m curious to how they plan on fixing it up to balance it out better but it would be cool if they gave the ability to properly augment your weapons to customize it to your play style rather then a mandatory setup for it.

[Korpg]

Airget, your example only works for the GA weapon. Some Mystics are actually better than the Emp counterparts, and much better than the Relic counterparts, which is by extension Emp-1 in terms of both usability and damage output.

But I agree with the rest of your post.

[Ravenmore]

Mystics use PW pops off the tier 4 ZNM that are rare drops. Terms of str for some relics are utter trash even back at 75 for amount of effort. Gungiur was only 5 base dmg higher then V.fork at 75 and was only 6 dmg higher then a NQ AH lance with a WS that was weaker then level 50 penta. Mystic beats it at 90 now. Mysitc vs emp.weapon seems to be a tough call atleast inside abyssea where you can make the most of emp. aftermath but having to use a weaker WS to get the aftermath could hurt it. Seeing how there is only like 50 or so drg mystics out there doubt solid testing has been done. Some of the relic WS needs more then just a dmg boost or job spec reworking, of the WS could also bosst them.

[Korpg]

I'm not saying that all mystics are better than relic and emp counterparts, far from it.

But there is one that is better than the relic/emp counterpart. Much better, by at least 10 times. Even for the melee SMN.

[wish12oz]

This just in: 90 Bravura is actually better then 90 Ukon on overly difficult mobs. It does more damage and gives -20% damage taken.

[Alienmonkey]

Except it's not

[Insaniac]

This just in: 90 Bravura is actually better then 90 Ukon on overly difficult mobs. It does more damage and gives -20% damage taken.

If this isn't sarcasm I would like to see that math lol.

[Malamasala]

I feel that SE are a bit out of touch with the special weapons. They are too afraid of making another Nirvana, since it would make Nirvana bad, but weapons with higher DMG is something they have no problems adding, since "it is just damage".

I'd like to see much more "not just DMG" weapons. And not only on the most difficult to obtain weapons.

[Ravenmore]

Love how alianmonkey keeps opening and closing his threads. done even post in any of thier threads

As for alex, if as many people were working on mystics I would think they could find each other to do the salvage, i'm sure korpg would love to know who and if they weren't brain dead.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I've never heard anything good about Metatron's Torment other than the only use for it is the -DT effect. I know one person on server who has one so I can try asking him what the damage is like.

EDIT: Managed to ask him, his response was basically better than RR outside obviously worse than RR inside. Didn't compare it to Ukko's.

[Korpg]

As for alex, if as many people were working on mystics I would think they could find each other to do the salvage, i'm sure korpg would love to know who and if they weren't brain dead.

ToAU is about as dead as Elvis Presley.

Sometimes you might see a salvage shout, but when you go to investigate it further, its all just a shadow.

[Raksha]

When you look at Mythics as a whole you'll notice that to an extent it's a big mess of what were they going for, some weapons have trait augment, others have 2hr augments with stats and then others are abilities and stat augments, or just ability augments lol.

NIN, WAR, SCH Mythics:
NIN=MACC, Enmity +, 2hr augment
WAR=Berserk Augment
SCH=Weather: ACC, MACC, Enmity -, MAB

Considering the above it seems pretty imbalanced. I would say that judging from the three SCH has a decent augment for itself it's only downside is needing weather active to make use of it. If I were to revitalize Mythic I would allow the user to create their personal augments on it, like the add-on rewards.
Let's say your base point value is 20 and with each magian upgrade it goes up 10 so by 90 you would have 50 points to work with.



SCH mythic isn't all that great. The MACC and MAB are useless when compared to ToTM staves, and I've got a lot of -enmity on just about everything anyway. If the -enmity broke the -50% cap it would be great, but even still Enmity is only a problem on nukes and cures, 2 situations where you wouldn't want the mythic equipped anyway.

[Ravenmore]

1 of playerX shadow absorbs the Tell. There is no cake.

[Korpg]

1 of playerX shadow absorbs the Tell. There is no cake.

Lies! I see the cake behind you!

[wish12oz]

Metatron with 90 bravura does a bit more then ukkos when it doesn't get crits, and I'm speaking of occasions when acc is not capped, and you don't get crits. At this point, Bravura is way better for damage. (the only thing that falls into this catagory right now is higher tier voidwatch mobs)

[Korpg]

Metatron with 90 bravura does a bit more then ukkos when it doesn't get crits, and I'm speaking of occasions when acc is not capped, and you don't get crits. At this point, Bravura is way better for damage. (the only thing that falls into this catagory right now is higher tier voidwatch mobs)

So, is it worth making a Bravura now then?

[wish12oz]

So, is it worth making a Bravura now then?

No, lol, ask again at 99.
(I say this because we have no idea what mobs we will be fighting at 99 or what they will be like, and voidwatch isn't even worth doing right now. All the good drops are EX and they always go to the wrong person, so forget it, its to much trouble to not get anything out of it.)

[Neisan_Quetz]

Doesn't Ukko's have an unconfirmed critical bonus (as with most critical weaponskills) though? Have heard numbers thrown around but nothing conclusive.

[Korpg]

Don't know, probably does, but it is too early to tell I think. Nobody is going to get any real testing done until 99 probably.

[Neisan_Quetz]

the one information I could dig up in the Final Form Magian thread over on that other FF site said a JP test had Ukko's having an abnormally high critical rate compared to most other crit WS (Jin/Evis average +10% iirc).

[Alhanelem]

Actually this thread didn't need to be re-opened, only because it's well known that this situation is a problem.

[wish12oz]

The only testing I ever saw said at 100% tp the crit bonus is 10% on crit based WS's,
I doubt they would change it for 1 WS.
http://robonosto.blogspot.com/
It was here somewhere~


Actually this thread didn't need to be re-opened, only because it's well known that this situation is a problem.

Apparently it does need to be opened, since people somehow seem to think it is a problem, when it's not. Even inside abyssea, only 5 empyreans are 'the best' as far as DPS goes, and outside, its less then that.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I've seen the blog but didn't his data show the crit rate for WS isn't consistent? Their test has Backhand Blow at +40%, and Rampage as possibly being +10% but also potentially lower. Raging Rush showed higher than +10% on the blog.

Rereading it they're unsure Jin's critical bonus is even as high as +10%.

[Alhanelem]

The only testing I ever saw said at 100% tp the crit bonus is 10% on crit based WS's,
I doubt they would change it for 1 WS.
http://robonosto.blogspot.com/
It was here somewhere~

Apparently it does need to be opened, since people somehow seem to think it is a problem, when it's not. Even inside abyssea, only 5 empyreans are 'the best' as far as DPS goes, and outside, its less then that.They don't have to be "the best." If they're even within sight of "the best", then it's a problem. Empyrean weapons are not just a little bit easier to get than relics, they're easy enough that anyone with one or two friends and the right jobs can get one.

[wish12oz]

They don't have to be "the best." If they're even within sight of "the best", then it's a problem. Empyrean weapons are not just a little bit easier to get than relics, they're easy enough that anyone with one or two friends and the right jobs can get one.

I dont understand how people being able to get stuff is somehow bad, could you please explain it?


I've seen the blog but didn't his data show the crit rate for WS isn't consistent? Their test has Backhand Blow at +40%, and Rampage as possibly being +10% but also potentially lower. Raging Rush showed higher than +10% on the blog.

Rereading it they're unsure Jin's critical bonus is even as high as +10%.

Rereading, good call, been so long since I bothered to look at anything guess I was confused, lol. Only thing I ever cared about was blade jin, must of confused that with everything or something.

[Byrth]

The measurement isn't immune to the fact in the title and doesn't reflect the recent dynamis changes. If relics were better, more people would make them instead of Empyreans.

Now that it's easier for Joe Schmo to get currency, any future census will reflect the relative desirability/effort of obtaining a relic. This past census reflects both Relics being inferior and relics being harder to get. Future censuses will show whether relics are still harder to get and whether they're inferior. There's no guarantee that the more difficult option has to be the best. Look at the OA2-4 weapons. They uniformly suck and are really hard to obtain, yet people still get them. I've got one myself.

tl;dr: For all we know it's balanced as intended right now and this topic is stupid.

[Alhanelem]

I dont understand how people being able to get stuff is somehow bad, could you please explain it?Who said getting things was bad? This is about risk/difficulty/time investment vs. reward.

The better the reward is, the more challenging/time consuming/risky it should be to obtain. A relic, which is not especially easy nor quick to obtain should be a superior prize for the effort to something that can be obtained relatively quickly with little difficulty.

[Vold]

tl;dr: For all we know it's balanced as intended right now and this topic is stupid.It's obvious it was intended to go down like it did as far as I'm concerned and every relic thread to date treating the devs like they had extreme retardation going for them when they designed Empyreans has been stupid because of a lack of sense and understanding about why they had to do what they did so Empyreans have appeal for anyone to care to work on them.

Let's say Empyreans didn't exist. What would hardcore people be doing right now? Exactly right. My answer is the same exact answer: Absolutely NOTHING while they wait for the next update. Congratulations, you now understand why some Empyreans are better than relic/mythic for the time being, whoever "you" may happen to be.

If we keep this subject going for much longer the horse is going to come back to haunt us for revenge. Just sayin'.

[wish12oz]

Who said getting things was bad? This is about risk/difficulty/time investment vs. reward.

The better the reward is, the more challenging/time consuming/risky it should be to obtain. A relic, which is not especially easy nor quick to obtain should be a superior prize for the effort to something that can be obtained relatively quickly with little difficulty.


loooooooooooooooool
you think relics are hard to get.
PROTIP: Empyreans are harder to get then relics, I would say why, but people always report my posts and they get removed when I explain how 90% of all relics are obtained, but I assure you, it's much easier to get then an empyrean. Most are obtained through buying currency, and how most make the gil to buy the currency doesn't even involve needing to be at your PC or play FFXI.

Also, by your logic mythics should be the best, empyreans second and relics last, just sayin~

[Leonlionheart]

Metatron with 90 bravura does a bit more then ukkos when it doesn't get crits, and I'm speaking of occasions when acc is not capped, and you don't get crits. At this point, Bravura is way better for damage. (the only thing that falls into this catagory right now is higher tier voidwatch mobs)

What the hell am I reading.

Edit: Oh higher tier Voidwatch mobs. Irrelevant point is irrelevant.

[Korpg]

because Ebisu Fishing Rod is hard to get? And on the same category as relics?

[Korpg]

No, he is implying that everyone who has a relic either fishbotted it or bought it with paypal.

What, getting 100s in Dyanmis - Xarcbard isn't viable? Or realistic?

I mean, that is how people are getting 100s. And instead of 10,000 singles, people just need to get 100...well, 100s.

It is easier to get a relic now. You don't need to do XX NM to get XX NM to get XX item.

[Alhanelem]

you think relics are hard to get.Ok. Let's see you start a brand new relic, and finish it within 2 weeks. Oh, wait, you can't! Collecting currency isn't easy unless you already have 200 million gil and buy it all. Getting attestations and fragments wasn't always easy either.


PROTIP: Empyreans are harder to get then relicsThere is nothing more difficult about empyreans either in time or literal difficulty, unless your lv90 trial NM is Azdaja and you are not brewing it.


Also, by your logic mythics should be the best, empyreans second and relics last, just sayin~ No, by my logic empyreans should be last, by a long shot. Mythics ARE the best for certain jobs; but mythics are designed with a different goal in mind- to provide major enhancements to abilities of the corresponding job (e.g. WHM divine veil on all the time, which makes it far better than relic club). That said I do feel that most of the mythics (well, all of them, but trying to be generous here) should be better than they are.

[Korpg]

Oh great, Alien is doing the katz thing. Deleting posts to try to save face....

[Alienmonkey]

I'm not trying to save face lol.

[Ravenmore]

Anything you don't need to even do the event it come from is not hard. You cac and people have bought are thier coins from bazzars go back and merc the other items. Gil has never been nor never will be hard to get, anyone that had problems farm gil in the old days didn't know how or were to lazy to try.

I in the last week I have made over 1.5 mil not even selling gear or weapons from soloing KI box farming. Time to finish does not = challenge. It's wasn't that hard to run a dyna shell, if you didn't pick up jeuno shout people. My personal fav that I seen to many times is the LS holder getting some one else to run event to event operations the shell thinking they were next in line for a relic. With all the shady actions that relics had associated with them why people would still want them is beyond me.

[Alhanelem]

Anything you don't need to even do the event it come from is not hard. Buying all your currency from bazaars is impractical and will take longer than either just doing the event or doing both. Buying it all also requires nearly to possibly more than 200 million gil depending on your server, while getting the currency yourself is now extremely cheap in terms of cost. Additionally, you DO have to do the event- You need all the city wins and the beaucadine win to be able to complete all the tasks required in addition to the currency. Before they removed casting warp from the animated weapons, they weren't that easy, and attestations weren't always so easy too (and you'd often have to do the fight multiple times).

[Insaniac]

Anything you don't need to even do the event it come from is not hard. You cac and people have bought are thier coins from bazzars go back and merc the other items. Gil has never been nor never will be hard to get, anyone that had problems farm gil in the old days didn't know how or were to lazy to try.

I in the last week I have made over 1.5 mil not even selling gear or weapons from soloing KI box farming. Time to finish does not = challenge. It's wasn't that hard to run a dyna shell, if you didn't pick up jeuno shout people. My personal fav that I seen to many times is the LS holder getting some one else to run event to event operations the shell thinking they were next in line for a relic. With all the shady actions that relics had associated with them why people would still want them is beyond me.

You are just one of those people who has a bug up their ass about relic weapons cause you heard a story or thought you should have been able to sponsor and weren't able to. Someone wronged you in your mind so you are applying your situation to everything. I have actually done the mythic quest and I own a relic weapon. I'm telling you they are around the same level of difficulty until you do either one of them you should probably stop making assumptions. And just a little math for you.. at 1.5 mil a week it would still take you over 2 years to make the gil required to buy a relic outright. If you wanted to take let's say 6 months to buy a relic you would need to make over 8 mil a week. 8 mil a week has never been a walk in the park minus the inflation period of way back when. Just cause you can buy a relic doesn't mean you aren't working equally hard to make that money somewhere else. In fact.. it's far easier to sponsor your relic and actually do the event than it is make the gil you would need to buy it. If you break it down to time invested you are looking at hours per day vs. a few hours twice a week.

[Ravenmore]

You are just one of those people who has a bug up their ass about relic weapons cause you heard a story or thought you should have been able to sponsor and weren't able to. Someone wronged you in your mind so you are applying your situation to everything. I have actually done the mythic quest and I own a relic weapon. I'm telling you they are around the same level of difficulty until you do either one of them you should probably stop making assumptions. And just a little math for you.. at 1.5 mil a week it would still take you over 2 years to make the gil required to buy a relic outright. If you wanted to take let's say 6 months to buy a relic you would need to make over 8 mil a week. 8 mil a week has never been a walk in the park minus the inflation period of way back when. Just cause you can buy a relic doesn't mean you aren't working equally hard to make that money somewhere else. In fact.. it's far easier to sponsor your relic and actually do the event than it is make the gil you would need to buy it. If you break it down to time invested you are looking at hours per day vs. a few hours twice a week.

I have seen it. 1.5 mil in a week not trying to farm. How many times have you seen some disappear after getting a relic hmm. Theres nothing to relics to really feel proud about. People will look down on you for having one being either as a no lifer, gil buyer, shell gave you one, shell user. Now all you need is a war and a whm you could make a mil in a hour.

[Byrth]

1.5mil in a week= 100 currency in a week. You'd be better off solo farming Dynamis. You need 17k currency to make a relic weapon, unless I'm remembering wrong.

[Ravenmore]

People can't read can they. 1.5 mil doing something I would be doing anyway.

[wish12oz]

I can make 3 mil a day fishing with 1 character, how long will it take me to buy a relic?
How about if I fish on my mule+my main+my alt account?

When I say this, I mean fishing up fish, then selling those fish to NPCs.

[Byrth]

People can't read can they. 1.5 mil doing something I would be doing anyway.

I do it too, but you aren't exactly making "Relic-blitzing" quantities of gil there. 1.5mil/day and you'd be approaching what you can solo through Dynamis.

If you want to make the argument that relics are easy to get, you should just say, "Well, I can enter Dynamis for free every day and solo about 100 currency average."

[wish12oz]

I do it too, but you aren't exactly making "Relic-blitzing" quantities of gil there. 1.5mil/day and you'd be approaching what you can solo through Dynamis.

If you want to make the argument that relics are easy to get, you should just say, "Well, I can enter Dynamis for free every day and solo about 100 currency average."

Or you could just talk about how much gil you can make every day fishing..... and hope people can figure out on their own why its such a big deal that you can make 3m/character/day fishing.

[Alienmonkey]

I can make 3 mil a day fishing with 1 character, how long will it take me to buy a relic?
How about if I fish on my mule+my main+my alt account?

When I say this, I mean fishing up fish, then selling those fish to NPCs.

The only way to make 3m+ a day from fishing is if you have a buyer for gugrusaurus/lik, and they are going to get their rod if you're fishing up 3m/day of fish for them. So that gravy train will run dry quick.

Hakuryu sell for 10,490g. At 200 a day thats 2.1M/day per character. And it's impossible to hit fatigue on those without cheating.

There is also no point to fishing on a mule if you're fishing up 3m/day of any type of fish because you will spend all your time on your main, he will never hit fatigue on anything that can make that amount of gil. An alt requires you to actually get ebisu rod again and on top of that pay an extra 12.95/month to SE(and again cheat and who is going to risk getting an ebisu rod banned?). These are large obstacles to this method of making gil you are overlooking. Almost nobody but the crazy are going to do this.

You may as well say "If you farm abyssea 20 hours a day on four characters you can make 10mil a day. How long is it going to take me to make a relic making 10mil a day?" without taking into account that requires you to play 20 hours a day and actually HAVE four characters.

[SNK]

Mythic Polearm is pretty much the best possible one you can obtain. It's just way too damn good and takes a literal dump on Gungnir and the Emperyan Polearm.

[Ravenmore]

You can also make it in a hour. Can make more if you then sell the NM pops that you FC up, but doubt you would do that since thats the main reason people FC the suckers are just iceing. After that sell the cruor gear from the crour you will biuld up. People paying to be PL may only be short term but the people willing to buy NMs pops could be long term.

[wish12oz]

The only way to make 3m+ a day from fishing is if you have a buyer for gugrusaurus/lik, and they are going to get their rod if you're fishing up 3m/day of fish for them. So that gravy train will run dry quick.

Hakuryu sell for 10,490g. At 200 a day thats 2.1M/day per character. And it's impossible to hit fatigue on those without cheating.

There is also no point to fishing on a mule if you're fishing up 3m/day of any type of fish because you will spend all your time on your main, he will never hit fatigue on anything that can make that amount of gil. An alt requires you to actually get ebisu rod again and on top of that pay an extra 12.95/month to SE(and again cheat and who is going to risk getting an ebisu rod banned?). These are large obstacles to this method of making gil you are overlooking. Almost nobody but the crazy are going to do this.

You may as well say "If you farm abyssea 20 hours a day on four characters you can make 10mil a day. How long is it going to take me to make a relic making 10mil a day?" without taking into account that requires you to play 20 hours a day and actually HAVE four characters.


Who doesnt have an alt to begin with?
[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).] And this along with the other method that was previously mentioned by someone other then me is how 90% of relics were made. So lets see here, which is harder, not playing ffxi and having a ton of gil and buying a relic, or going out and fighting some NMs, no matter how easy.

EDIT: I also clearly said you make the gil by fishing then selling the fish to an NPC, quit saying I wont be able to find buyers.

[Alienmonkey]

Who doesnt have an alt to begin with?
And the amount of time it takes is not important because well....... [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).] And this along with the other method that was previously mentioned by someone other then me is how 90% of relics were made. So lets see here, which is harder, not playing ffxi and having a ton of gil and buying a relic, or going out and fighting some NMs, no matter how easy.

Yeah most people have an alt nowdays, but not everyone.
A quick /sea all on valefor shows 1800 people online. There are 2000 ebisus across all servers. Split by 16 that's 125 per server. We know from the census that ~10% of players have fishing level 100. Ignoring the fact that 1800 on valefor is just what is online now, and not the actual active playerbase, 7% of currently online players would have an ebisu rod.

You are saying that multiple ebisu = easy relic. So you need at least 2x ebisu to make it worthwhile. Let's be generous and take 2% of that 7% and give it to another 2% of players. So we have 5% of the playerbase with ebisu rods and 2% of those that have multiple ebisu rods. So 2% of the currently online playerbase(the real amount is lower) have an easy time making a relic. That doesn't seem like a lot to me. Two percent. How does that make relics easy for the other 98% I wonder?

And on top of all that, we are also assuming that all of them are willing to cheat and risk the banhammer, which I don't think is the case.




EDIT: I also clearly said you make the gil by fishing then selling the fish to an NPC, quit saying I wont be able to find buyers.

Then you're just plain wrong. You can't make 3m/day fishing with vendor to npc.

[Insaniac]

And this along with the other method that was previously mentioned by someone other then me is how 90% of relics were made.

You are out of your mind if you believe this. That figure is probably more like 2%.

[wish12oz]

I'm simply pointing out the easiest way to do it, and how most were obtained. I don't really care how many ebisu's there are or how many people have 100 fishing, if you did it every day you could have one in under 3 months starting from nothing. And if you wanted lots of gil its the best way to go about obtaining it. There's a reason RMTs always fish botted like crazy, its because it made tons and tons of gil with no effort.

[wish12oz]

You are out of your mind if you believe this. That figure is probably more like 2%.

There was a guy on my old server, he RMTd 3 relics then got hit by salvage bans, came back and bought 3 more, thats probably more then 2% by itself.
(2% for that server)

[Alienmonkey]

The gp for serpent rumors is going to take a whole month on its own. If its so easy why isn't your fishing 100 with multiple ebisu?

[Insaniac]

There was a guy on my old server, he RMTd 3 relics then got hit by salvage bans, came back and bought 3 more, thats probably more then 2% by itself.
(2% for that server)Because 6 is 2% of 6000 right? (We aren't talking about your old server we're talking all servers) Relics were number 1 for years and years. If it was sooo easy there would be 100,000 of them seeing as we already have 15,000(?) emps in less than a year right? Also RMTs didn't make a ton of gil individually they fished cheap junk on a huge scale and controlled the market. The majority of relics were funded by HNM linkshell payouts and Dynamis sponsoring. I don't understand why some people want so badly to believe that anyone with a relic lied cheated and stole to get it.

[Coldbrand]

So, is it worth making a Bravura now then?

I just want to point out you're the kind of player I dislike. You have no real attachment to any of these weapons or items, you just want what's best at this particular moment.

[Cream_Soda]

I just want to point out you're the kind of player I dislike. You have no real attachment to any of these weapons or items, you just want what's best at this particular moment.
And? I loved getting my Usuaken armor. It took what felt like forever. When the af3 came out, I moved to it. I'm not going to wear inferior gear just because.

What I'm attached to is the journey and time it takes to get these items, not the items themselves.

Just because I don't use Usukane anymore doesn't mean I regret the journey and the process I took to obtain it.

If there is something better than what I have, I'll make means to obtain it. New journeys for new memories.

[Korpg]

Wow, can't believe that Vegetto and I agree on the same thing so much...

I am making a Ukon at the moment, and I want to make sure it is the great axe of choice for me. That is why I asked the question, I wanted to know what the absolute best is, because I don't want to have different weapons for different events or weapons I won't use 99% of the time.

[Ravenmore]

Another thing is each update since relic were interduced had weapons gaining on relics. Its about the same as being in a HNM LS, even if the one you were in didn't bot doesn't mean it to wasn't tainted by it. Sponsoring dyna wasn't that much better, you put up 1mil/500k and walk away with 3 or 4 times your investment. Players could see sponsors as being favored by the leader. So even people with the means to get a relic stayed away from them. Even sponsoring you didn't need to be at the event. Not one thing about sponsoring was hard either. Time shink does not = challenge. With emp. weapons they removed a good deal of the time sink.

[wish12oz]

I just want to point out you're the kind of player I dislike. You have no real attachment to any of these weapons or items, you just want what's best at this particular moment.

And you're the kind of person who I dislike, because you can't move on to new gear/strategies/play styles/etc/etc/etc and live in the past with your relics and kings and sky and salvage.


I don't understand why some people want so badly to believe that anyone with a relic lied cheated and stole to get it.

You seem to be unaware of this so let me spell it out for you, all those people with the awesome gear either cheat, or play with a bunch of people who cheat and profit from it. Quit deluding yourself and thinking the 1% of people with everything who don't cheat are the norm.


The gp for serpent rumors is going to take a whole month on its own. If its so easy why isn't your fishing 100 with multiple ebisu?

Who says I don't have 100 fishings and ebisus? just from checking my FFXIAH you can see I have 50 fishing and lu shangs, use that to find and check my guildwork you can find my alt and see the same can be said of her. Who says I don't have other characters that I fish on and just use my mains to get the lu shangs for the mules to get them started? And just for the record, relics were never worth the investment for me, I used my gil for other things, still do. Maybe if they become superior at 99 I will give a crap, til then, g horn mule is all I'll ever care to do.

[Gotterdammerung]

Honestly ive always hated the idea of linking a WS to a specific weapon.
It poses balance issues as well as several logistical issues. A strong ws linked only to a specific Weapon can instantly make all other weapons in that category obsolete(balance issue). This is a beast example but im a bst so meh, worked to unlock farsha but often times i cant wear farsha because i require another weapon for wat im doing. During these times im locked out of using this cloudsplitter WS i worked to unlock because its tied into farsha. Would be much more practical if i had been able to quest for cloudsplitter and use it with any axe. And at the same time still have Farsha for when i can truly focus on pure DD (logistical issue).

I think Mythic's was a good balance in that respect. The WS gave added benefits for a mythic user BUT with a quest anyone could get and use the WS. Personally tho id prefer the WS's not be tied to a weapon at all. I would rather the weapon just have really unique and strong stats and make the special WS's available to everyone. With a quest or without a quest it doesnt matter.

If empyreon WS's and relic WS's were questable like mythic WS's, then the balance issue would be solved. The super stupid easy empyreons for the most part would stop being the ultimate top #1 weapons but still maintain a value as a strong weapon. The harder to make mythics would for the most part end up the strongest and the relics would easily pass up the empyreans.

[Alienmonkey]

And you're the kind of person who I dislike, because you can't move on to new gear/strategies/play styles/etc/etc/etc and live in the past with your relics and kings and sky and salvage.



You seem to be unaware of this so let me spell it out for you, all those people with the awesome gear either cheat, or play with a bunch of people who cheat and profit from it. Quit deluding yourself and thinking the 1% of people with everything who don't cheat are the norm.



Who says I don't have 100 fishings and ebisus? just from checking my FFXIAH you can see I have 50 fishing and lu shangs, use that to find and check my guildwork you can find my alt and see the same can be said of her. Who says I don't have other characters that I fish on and just use my mains to get the lu shangs for the mules to get them started? And just for the record, relics were never worth the investment for me, I used my gil for other things, still do. Maybe if they become superior at 99 I will give a crap, til then, g horn mule is all I'll ever care to do.

Show us how easy it is. Start a new account and get a relic within a month.

[Ravenmore]

Really its not about being hard since it was never hard to make a relic, time consuming yes. If we had the system we have now for relic they would be more common. Correct me if i'm wrong but the relic data was only for the cenus was one month.

[Byrth]

I think that was relic data from the last census up until April of this year.

[Ravenmore]

I don't know on the front page it said all data collected in may. They could have just compaired the two.

[Suirieko]

I think that was relic data from the last census up until April of this year.

SE said that the data were used up until the May 10th update, so before that Dynamis overhaul update.


I think Mythic's was a good balance in that respect. The WS gave added benefits for a mythic user BUT with a quest anyone could get and use the WS. Personally tho id prefer the WS's not be tied to a weapon at all. I would rather the weapon just have really unique and strong stats and make the special WS's available to everyone. With a quest or without a quest it doesnt matter.

For the most part, ESPECIALLY the mage's, this is how the weapons for the mages should've been all about. The stats actually benefits the mages, and what they do, especially Yagrush. Who wouldn't want a WHM with permanent Divine Veil effect? It's why it's extremely popular. Basically, the mythic had the right idea: It focuses on boosting certain aspect of the jobs, but most of them barely boost it to the point where the weapon was still unremarkable, and therefore, there was little justification to obtain them other than for the sake of achievement.

The Polearm, Ryunohige, is also a great example of how it benefits the job. It takes advantage of one of the unique aspect of Dragoons (the jumps) and greatly strengthens it. Jumps for Dragoon is already strong, with spirit and soul jumps, it's even stronger. This is why Ryunohige is considered as one of the best DD mythic weapon. Even then, you cannot deny that the mythic weapon is nearly unreasonable to obtain when only extremely few of them were actually worth getting. No one does it because the events involved, hardly anyone want do nowadays since abyssea gears replaced just about most of it. This is especially true for Salvage, and because of this, the cost of Alexandrites have skyrocketed, and there's never enough in the server to justify doing any mythic to begin with.

Finally, the other biggest problem with mythic is that it requires constant group effort. You need an alliance to do Einherjar at minimum. You still need 3 people to do all 50 assaults, AND Nyzul, which takes a lot of time. You still need a decent group to do ZNMs, and be prepared to do all 3 ZNM paths, multiple times, due to how rarity of the final three trophy. And of course, you still need a group for salvage for the Alexandrites. I'm not saying mythics should be soloable (this isn't the point here), but what I'm saying is you're going to have a very hard justifying finding people that is willing to stick with you the whole way there. Here's how people are going to see this. "The gears are outdated." or "The Mythic sucks (Unless you're doing Nirvana, Ryunohige, Yagrush, or Burtgang)." or "This is very time consuming, I don't think I'm up for it", you get the point.

People say that Mythic should've been the best. I agree, but guess what. They are far from the best. Case in point: Vajra is a very unremarkable weapon for a THF, especially since it barely boosts the SATA damage.

Dynamis relic is much easier now, there's no denying that. You *could* technically solo on the currencies, and find a few people (say 6 people) to kill the NMs drops, especially Attestation and fragment. Also, to say that Relics are easier to do than Empyrean weapons, It's debatable. Look at Masamune/Caladbolg/Armageddon, at most you only need two people for this, three to do this quicker (War, nin, whm for staggering red, obviously).


And? I loved getting my Usuaken armor. It took what felt like forever. When the af3 came out, I moved to it. I'm not going to wear inferior gear just because.

What I'm attached to is the journey and time it takes to get these items, not the items themselves.

Just because I don't use Usukane anymore doesn't mean I regret the journey and the process I took to obtain it.

If there is something better than what I have, I'll make means to obtain it. New journeys for new memories.I agree with this 100%. A lot of the gears I have, I have attachments to it because of the journey to obtain the gears, and most of them I don't even use anymore because they were replaced, and there's nothing beneficial about it anymore. For example, the recently replaced Shura Togi +1? Most people at first would think I spend an extreme amount of money on it. How much did I really spend on it? ~425K. Almost two years ago, I spent 2 weeks looking for materials and a crafter to make the cursed togi. The divine lumbers were still expensive, and it involved a some mid-leveled gear that no one ever makes. After finally getting everything I needed, I asked my crafter friend to make it, and boom, it +1'd to my and the crafter's surprise. It was even first attempt too. It sucked that I no longer use it, so now my mannequin wears it in my MH, but hey, the journey to get it made it worth while.

[Alienmonkey]

Really its not about being hard since it was never hard to make a relic, time consuming yes. If we had the system we have now for relic they would be more common. Correct me if i'm wrong but the relic data was only for the cenus was one month.

No one who couldn't make a relic before the dyna update is going to have it finished by now most likely. It's still a ton of work.

[Insaniac]

You seem to be unaware of this so let me spell it out for you, all those people with the awesome gear either cheat, or play with a bunch of people who cheat and profit from it. Quit deluding yourself and thinking the 1% of people with everything who don't cheat are the norm..

Oh man.. You're one of those people. Anyone who accomplished more than you was clearly cheating amiright?


Really its not about being hard since it was never hard to make a relic, time consuming yes. If we had the system we have now for relic they would be more common. Correct me if i'm wrong but the relic data was only for the cenus was one month.

Protip: Nothing in this game is hard if you aren't terrible at it. It's all time sinks. Getting an empyrean is easier than most regular magian trials because magian trials are more of a time sink.

[Melodicya]

Hello Everyone!

I know it can be easy to get sidetracked, given the nature of this thread, but please keep the conversation on topic. Also please refrain from personal attacks, as it does not lead to productive conversation. A number of posts needed to be removed for these reasons.

If you would like to review the Forum Guidelines, they can always be found at the link below:

FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines
http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1

Thank you for your cooperation!

[Andrien]

I personally don't like the idea of very old content weapons being the best for years and years. I prefer something new and powerful enough to make it a most wanted item. Just like armors, most of the old content armory is gimp compared to now. Thats just my opinion.

[Ravenmore]

No one who couldn't make a relic before the dyna update is going to have it finished by now most likely. It's still a ton of work.

Not really only getting 100 coins a day buying or soloing would take you 170 days to finish that part. Now if you can solo 100 coins and buy one 100 piece which runs around 1.2 to 1.5 on my server you can cut that in half. With gil raining from the sky if you go out and farm it as your prime target you would have little trouble getting enough to buy one 100 piece a day. Since all you have to do to get a 100 singles is go to the north lands which are the easiest to get 4/5, 5/5 TEs decent solo class can proc on the JA mobs. Doing that we are now down to 85 days to finish.

[Ravenmore]

Oh man.. You're one of those people. Anyone who accomplished more than you was clearly cheating amiright?



Protip: Nothing in this game is hard if you aren't terrible at it. It's all time sinks. Getting an empyrean is easier than most regular magian trials because magian trials are more of a time sink.

The salvage bans proved it. A large part of some of the so called elite got banned. Even being terrribe didn't mean crap if you were good at farming gil.

[Insaniac]

The salvage bans proved it. A large part of some of the so called elite got banned. Even being terrribe didn't mean crap if you were good at farming gil.
Proved what exactly?

[Ravenmore]

Given the chance anyone will try to cheat the system. You can not say that if the cheat was more widely known that every endgame LS that did salvge wouldn't have used it.

[Vagrua]

Proved what exactly?

I believe he/she meant to prove that players didn't need any skill to get anything accomplished back then, only cheating/taking advantage of bugs/packet injection bots/telehacking/fleehackers. These players/groups have/had quite an advantage over the community that do not use them.

[wish12oz]

Oh man.. You're one of those people. Anyone who accomplished more than you was clearly cheating amiright?

My original response to you got removed, so lets try this again.

If you're going to come on here and subtly call me a noob with bad gear, you're incorrect. When I say they cheat, I'm speaking from experience. Having played this game since forever and being one of the original NA people doing endgame activities and continuing to do that stuff up until now, I assure you pretty much all very good endgame LS cheated, especially right before abyssea was introduced. I dunno how it was for you, but I assume it was the same as every other server, with 1 or 2 LS's having very good bots and dominating kings and land HNMs, and no one else even bothering to compete with them. You can't even counter with 'people who did events that didnt require bots didnt cheat' because well.... salvage bans? Ya, even those people who only did those types of events cheated. And just for lulz, anyone remember how many relics were lost with salvage bans? wasn't it like 500 perma banned and another 500 or so temp banned? Cause you know, people with relics dont cheat.

So anyway, since I know you think Im some terrible player with poor gear, here's a link to my guildwork to show otherwise.
http://guildwork.com/ffxi/odin/kaerin#/loot
Here's my followcatwhm:
http://guildwork.com/ffxi/odin/kiraen

Why dont you post yours and we'll compare.

[Korpg]

The salvage bans proved it. A large part of some of the so called elite got banned. Even being terrribe didn't mean crap if you were good at farming gil.

Wait, just because they got banned didn't put them in the elite. Just those who like to use a method outside of norm for their own personal gain and exploit it.

[Korpg]

If you're going to come on here and subtly call me a noob with bad gear, you're incorrect. When I say they cheat, I'm speaking from experience. Having played this game since forever and being one of the original NA people doing endgame activities and continuing to do that stuff up until now, I assure you pretty much all very good endgame LS cheated, especially right before abyssea was introduced. I dunno how it was for you, but I assume it was the same as every other server, with 1 or 2 LS's having very good bots and dominating kings and land HNMs, and no one else even bothering to compete with them. You can't even counter with 'people who did events that didnt require bots didnt cheat' because well.... salvage bans? Ya, even those people who only did those types of events cheated. And just for lulz, anyone remember how many relics were lost with salvage bans? wasn't it like 500 perma banned and another 500 or so temp banned? Cause you know, people with relics dont cheat.

Yeah, most every endgame shell on Asura cheated in one fashion or another (my linkshell and probably one other being the exception towards the end). And Asura had the hardest hit on the Salvage bans (if I remember right, 150 people were banned from Asura alone).

[Insaniac]

You can look at my AH profile. My real character is linked. I didn't mean to imply anything about your gear but your comment made it sound like you have something against the old end game players and that makes me want to lump you in with the people who didn't participate in endgame that much pre-abyssea and hated old HNM LSs based on rumor and circumstance. It's rampant. Abyssea is good, emps are fine, I understand the desire to protect your new pretties but you don't need to shit on the work other people have done by making outrageous claims about 90% of relic owners cheating to get them. I worked hard for my relic and I know at least 15 others who worked just as hard or harder than me on my server. 90% is a ridiculous number to be throwing around. And yes every HNM LS has cheaters but so does every social LS and probably half the abyssea exp alliances you have been in depending on your definition of cheating. The same % of anyone who has anything has cheated in one way or another to get it. I can't tell you how many times I have been allseeingeye'd at briareus NMs and mappy'd on VNMs. Also, the salvage bans got nowhere near 500 relics and people with relics were not the only ones banned and didn't even make up a large % of the people banned.

[Leonlionheart]

90% might be too big, but I can assure you it's over 50%.

I've seen Relic owners with less knowledge of the game than pink power rangers. This of course is probably the smallest category of Relic owners, because most people will find out if they enjoy the game our not before they dish out big real currency to buy relics.

[Sparthos]

Given the chance anyone will try to cheat the system. You can not say that if the cheat was more widely known that every endgame LS that did salvge wouldn't have used it.

Im glad you know anyone will cheat the system given the chance, so lets stop making it seem like only hardcore players would.

Some hardcores got banned duping Salvage/Sandworm/Nyzul and I say to you - so what? We have no statistics of exactly who got banned since only few announced publicly that they got banned. For every hardcore player that was banned, how many others simply took their bans and moved on from XI? How many were banned simply for attending a run? How many were doing Nyzul and accidentally duped the loot?

SE handled the Salvage bans poorly, period. They applied napalm to a situation simply in response to having something go under their noses for a long time. I guarantee that many casuals and hardcores were killed off alike.


I believe he/she meant to prove that players didn't need any skill to get anything accomplished back then, only cheating/taking advantage of bugs/packet injection bots/telehacking/fleehackers. These players/groups have/had quite an advantage over the community that do not use them.

This idea of needing no skill to do stuff is completely asinine. Even if Sandworm or Dark Ixion was up for grabs by anyone @75, most groups would have been thoroughly pummeled by both.

If the typical player couldn't even do ODS right, what is supposed to convince me that in a perfect world without bots that the base could have even handled these mobs? Even up to today in Abyssea with all of the buffs one could ever imagine individuals are still noobing it up on mobs.

Im not going to deny that cheating wasn't rampant but most of the "king" tier mobs were designed for a hardcore base in the first place. To a hardcore player these mobs may seem easy but lets be serious, most people are talking to talk.

Even hardcore groups had days where they noobed it up on garbage like Cerberus.

[Ravenmore]

Wait, just because they got banned didn't put them in the elite. Just those who like to use a method outside of norm for their own personal gain and exploit it.

The ones that got banned were most of the ones going around screaming how elite they were based of thier gear. When they went on site say those that needed to know about the cheat knew about it reinforced it.

[Alhanelem]

SE handled the Salvage bans poorly, period.They handled it properly, period. People broke the rules, which was grounds for banning as stated in the rules, and they recieved the perscribed punishment. There is nothing more to it than that. All this what ifs about if "everybody" did it is pointless because not "everybody" did it.


I guarantee that many casuals and hardcores were killed off alike.
It wasn't "many" people. It was a very small percentage. SE had 100s of thousands of customers at the time and these bans were a drop in the bucket.

Anyone who knew they were cheating the system got what was coming to them and they deserved it. Some people who weren't a regular part of it or weren't orchestrating it got slapped on the wrist, and they should consider themselves fortunate.

What does all this have to do with relic and empyrean weapons, anyway?

[Cursed]

This entire argument that Mythics are harder to obtain than relics is partially wrong.
Since the dynamis update, I will say that obtaining relics 75 has become much easier. Being able to spam dynamis daily with a small group and get 100-200 currency a day is pretty awesome. while also keeping the 500k you would have coughed up to sponsor the run and spending it on more currency. Yes Relics are probably very easy. But Mythics can be too.
Mythics are currently harder to obtain for 2 main reasons
1st, because they are crap for the most part or the improvement they provide is mild in comparison to empyreans, which are easier to obtain. And if for some reason you're sick and don't want the best weapon (empyrean), or the 2nd best (WoE) you can always get a Relic (3rd best).
2nd, because no one is currently ever in Whitegate doing TOA content. As a result, there are less Alexandrites, less people to static for Nyzul Isle climbs, less people to do salvage with, no one selling Zeni pics and no one bothered enough to farm them.
If mythics became the best weapons tomorrow, they would instantly become far more attainable.

Poor DRG, its mythic is a pretty sick weapon.


EDIT:
Salvage bans -
SE knows it messed up big time with Salvage bans.
Tell me where are the routine STF reports we once used to be bombarded with? That little PR stunt didn't last long. Wonder how much money the STF cost SE lol.
I've sat across their EU COO and told him straight up I didn't think this company was worth investing in because it treated its customers like criminals.
In other MMOs, it takes a lot for the company to cut you off, give you the silent treatment.
SE even stated openly "We do not need a reason to ban anyone from our services, and they need not break any rules. We reserve the right to act without any warning, cause or communication of such to the 2nd or 3rd party".
That's a cheap legal way of saying "yo we make up the rules as the game is played, get in bed with us at your own risk"

Their first MMO, FFXI, has been online for a decade, and fan run website and forums have been the main source of communicating information among the none japanese speaking clients/customers. Only after a decade, at the end of the game's life does the company decide to invest in some kind of communication pathway between itself and its customers.

That's why I told Jurgen not to look over here for money. We may play this game cuz we're addicts, but being an addict doesn't mean our business sense went out the window.
My 9 year old son could do a better job at running SE's public relations and corporate coms units.

[Insaniac]

90% might be too big, but I can assure you it's over 50%.

I've seen Relic owners with less knowledge of the game than pink power rangers. This of course is probably the smallest category of Relic owners, because most people will find out if they enjoy the game our not before they dish out big real currency to buy relics.

Meh, most emp owners don't know how to play/gear their jobs either. I would say a larger % than relic owners but that's just my opinion. And 50+% is still an outrageous claim. Until you know someone personally you can't make those kinds of judgments. Everything you know about someone you have never talked to is 100% hearsay. I had at least 10 different rumors started about me after I got my relic about how I bought gil, stole my LS bank, sold currency and ended with more money than I started with, had an e-lationship with someone who was involved in deciding who the next sponsor was, ect. ect. People have always had it out for relic owners and most of the time it's unjustified.

[Leonlionheart]

Meh, most emp owners don't know how to play/gear their jobs either. I would say a larger % than relic owners but that's just my opinion. And 50+% is still an outrageous claim. Until you know someone personally you can't make those kinds of judgments. Everything you know about someone you have never talked to is 100% hearsay. I had at least 10 different rumors started about me after I got my relic about how I bought gil, stole my LS bank, sold currency and ended with more money than I started with, had an e-lationship with someone who was involved in deciding who the next sponsor was, ect. ect. People have always had it out for relic owners and most of the time it's unjustified.

It goes the same way on both arguments. Across the internet even if you do talk to them the odds are they will lie to you if they have bought gil, considering it's such an offense.

I've met maybe two Relic owners who have legitimately gotten relics, and played with dozens. The two Relic owners who are legit are the only ones deserving of the relics, and they both worked hard for them and keep up their job adamantly.

I can't say absolutely that they have bought gil, but you can't say they haven't either. I can say though, that MANY abuse and rip off LS. More than half of relic owners before 2010, of that I'm certain.

[Cream_Soda]

I can say though, that MANY abuse and rip off LS. More than half of relic owners before 2010, of that I'm certain.
No matter how douchy it may seem, there is nothing about that which is not legit

[Ravenmore]

Meh, most emp owners don't know how to play/gear their jobs either. I would say a larger % than relic owners but that's just my opinion. And 50+% is still an outrageous claim. Until you know someone personally you can't make those kinds of judgments. Everything you know about someone you have never talked to is 100% hearsay. I had at least 10 different rumors started about me after I got my relic about how I bought gil, stole my LS bank, sold currency and ended with more money than I started with, had an e-lationship with someone who was involved in deciding who the next sponsor was, ect. ect. People have always had it out for relic owners and most of the time it's unjustified.

Most people have seen this kinda of thing. Most players have been in a dyna shell and seen the crap that goes on with sponsers. Only truely fair way with no personal bias is for those interested to random. If relics had never needed more then 6 people to obtain then these kinda of rumors wouldn't have started. I turned down every shell offer I got from friends to join the LSes they were in because of sponsors. People don't really like seeing some one profit off thier work and they might get one run a month at the gear they really wanted from dyna. Sponsors and leader used this carrot to get the minons to work for thier toys.

[Leonlionheart]

No matter how douchy it may seem, there is nothing about that which is not legit

"Legit" I suppose, but as long as no one finds out buying the gil and the currency is "Legit" too. Just keep your mouth closed and it's as legit as you make it.

Either way, wrong is wrong.

[Cream_Soda]

"Legit" I suppose, but as long as no one finds out buying the gil and the currency is "Legit" too. Just keep your mouth closed and it's as legit as you make it.

Either way, wrong is wrong.
Buying the gil, sure, breaking the rules = wrong.

Anything beyond that is subjective

[Bumbeen]

I can make 3 mil a day fishing with 1 character, how long will it take me to buy a relic?
How about if I fish on my mule+my main+my alt account?

When I say this, I mean fishing up fish, then selling those fish to NPCs.

You cannot do this. 50% exaggeration. And in addition, on some servers its impossible to get the bait you need to get 2M because of all the bots. So you're limited to 1.5M in those cases.

[Insaniac]

It goes the same way on both arguments. Across the internet even if you do talk to them the odds are they will lie to you if they have bought gil, considering it's such an offense.

I've met maybe two Relic owners who have legitimately gotten relics, and played with dozens. The two Relic owners who are legit are the only ones deserving of the relics, and they both worked hard for them and keep up their job adamantly.

I can't say absolutely that they have bought gil, but you can't say they haven't either. I can say though, that MANY abuse and rip off LS. More than half of relic owners before 2010, of that I'm certain.

That's why I said you have to know them personally. You can't just talk to someone a few times like you said but when people work on relics they tend to interact with each other. I know that every NA who finished their relic while I was working on mine did it legit. I watched them go through the process. On top of that I heard rumors about all of them that weren't true during and after their process. I know how this works. People see someone get something they want and they start making up stories about how they got it.

On the subject of shell abuse, yes, some leaders were dicks and had their members spamming cities with 1 xarc/glacier a month but it's not like they had no other options. If they stayed it was because they wanted to. There was never a shortage of dynamis shells and if their leader was screwing them over they should have just left and usually people did. If someone is stupid enough to be taken advantage of then someone is gonna take advantage of them and not just for relics.

[Frost]

Read through the thread, and the only thing I have to add at this time:

To those that say you can just buy a relic, you're right you can. However as someone already pointed out, you're still grinding to get cash to do so. Boasting you make 1.5m/week and putting that to the math was done. But there's also one facet to that argument that wasn't touched: Availability. You may see "Thirty Bazaars packed to the teeth with coins". But in reality it's more like 10 or so with maybe 3-5 of each coin if you're lucky, and usually way overpriced compared to "common market value". Availability has always been the obstacle when you're doing a relic without a shell.

And at least on my server, "Sell Abuse" was pretty much unheard of. I've said it in other threads on this topic, that is actually pretty rare. You only heard about those incidents because they are tantamount to murder in the FFXI world. You don't read about all the babies being born in the world, only the horrific deaths. Not saying it never happens, but it's more rare than you'd think.

[Ravenmore]

You can make 1.5 mil a day if you really tried to farm. Forget singles, one 100 piece a day is easy to find. Again grinding gil or old school of getting a whole LS to farm it for you since as a sponsor your personal amount of work was far less then the rest of the shell.

[Leonlionheart]

Buying the gil, sure, breaking the rules = wrong.

Anything beyond that is subjective

Nit picking, I don't think you'll find many ripped off LS that thing what happened to them was 'right.'

[Insaniac]

Nit picking, I don't think you'll find many ripped off LS that thing what happened to them was 'right.'

Let's find a single person who was actually in a shell that was ripped off before we start putting words in their mouth. Shells crumble when a leader is crooked. If people stay in a shell they are obviously getting something out of it or they are just stupid. Most of these "abuse" shells never even got off the ground let alone ran long enough to get someone a relic. When people join a sponsor shell they understand what they are getting into.

[Neisan_Quetz]

You underestimate how stupid this playerbase is.

[Ravenmore]

You would be amazed at how being next 2nd or 3rd in line for sought after gear will cause people to over look shady acts. Sometimes just starting over in a new shell that could turn out to be the same with no points or time put in will do the same thing. If you have had left for for reason's like that a couple times you be less inclined to do it again. Not everyone has the gear or jobs to get into the good LSes and hve to make do with what they can get into.

[Byrth]

Yeah... people who joined sponsored LSs didn't know what they're getting into. They knew that they wanted to do Dynamis and you guys were always recruiting. Then, by the time they did the math and figured out how much gil they could have been making every run and weren't, they'd invested in whatever stupid karma/DKP system you guys chose and wouldn't want to walk away because "they're only fifth in line for RDM hat." It was a sustainable pyramid scheme because of how shitty the AF2 drop rates were.

Furthermore, it allowed players with high playtime to exploit those with low playtime. Someone who wasn't making any money in Dynamis and was devoting half their playtime to it knew that it wasn't feasible to come up with even a 500k glass fee every week. They can't even agitate to become the single profiting person in the linkshell, the sponsor, because they couldn't front the gil.

Of course, this wasn't true if you went whole-hog exploitation-style and had a sponsor-Dynamis LS that required members to pay for the glass every run. Now that was exploitation in its finest.



See the things I said up there? ^
They're entirely true for every single funded Dynamis LS that has ever existed and been remotely successful. The one where people had to pay so that they could farm other people's currency? I think it lasted 4 years.

[Insaniac]

Yeah... people who joined sponsored LSs didn't know what they're getting into. They knew that they wanted to do Dynamis and you guys were always recruiting. Then, by the time they did the math and figured out how much gil they could have been making every run and weren't, they'd invested in whatever stupid karma/DKP system you guys chose and wouldn't want to walk away because "they're only fifth in line for RDM hat." It was a sustainable pyramid scheme because of how shitty the AF2 drop rates were.

Furthermore, it allowed players with high playtime to exploit those with low playtime. Someone who wasn't making any money in Dynamis and was devoting half their playtime to it knew that it wasn't feasible to come up with even a 500k glass fee every week. They can't even agitate to become the single profiting person in the linkshell, the sponsor, because they couldn't front the gil.

Of course, this wasn't true if you went whole-hog exploitation-style and had a sponsor-Dynamis LS that required members to pay for the glass every run. Now that was exploitation in its finest.



See the things I said up there? ^
They're entirely true for every single funded Dynamis LS that has ever existed and been remotely successful. The one where people had to pay so that they could farm other people's currency? I think it lasted 4 years.

Then, like I said, those people were dumb. I would be ashamed of myself if I let someone exploit me like that. The math behind a sponsor shell is very very simple. It shouldn't take anyone with a 3rd grade education more than 2 seconds to realize the dynamic of the shell they joined. I do agree with you that the relic/dynamis system was an unfortunate system that required a group of people to put another person ahead of themselves to some extent but SE forced that system on us. This doesn't mean that every person involved in getting another person their relic was screwed/abused/swindled. People had a choice in how they wanted to take part in that system.

Anyway we've started a whole different conversation now. None of this really has anything to do with what this thread is supposed to be about.

[Byrth]

It's okay to exploit dumb people. Got it!

[Sparthos]

Yeah... people who joined sponsored LSs didn't know what they're getting into. They knew that they wanted to do Dynamis and you guys were always recruiting. Then, by the time they did the math and figured out how much gil they could have been making every run and weren't, they'd invested in whatever stupid karma/DKP system you guys chose and wouldn't want to walk away because "they're only fifth in line for RDM hat." It was a sustainable pyramid scheme because of how shitty the AF2 drop rates were.

If you joined a sponsor-oriented LS, you knew you weren't getting money because the currency was going towards a relic, how hard was that to figure out? If gil was your primary reason for joining a dynamis LS, there were groups that ran with that intention in mind.

Even if your LS wasn't sponsor oriented and sold/split currency based on attendance, the roadblock of low drop rates still existed. The leaders could have slanted things towards more city runs than CoP/Icelands but in the end they couldn't force your item to drop. Some groups did nothing but Icelands and still had issues putting Duelist Chapeau's on members heads.



Furthermore, it allowed players with high playtime to exploit those with low playtime.

Id argue Dynamis was one of the most fair events regarding playtime. It was ~4hours, twice a week at the same time every week. Unlike Kings where shifting windows could it make impossible for some to attend, Dynamis was as simple as showing up.

This of course assumes your Dynamis shell was independent of an HNMLS. If the two were linked then yes, it could get unfair if you could use LS DKP within the Dynamis run.


Someone who wasn't making any money in Dynamis and was devoting half their playtime to it knew that it wasn't feasible to come up with even a 500k glass fee every week. They can't even agitate to become the single profiting person in the linkshell, the sponsor, because they couldn't front the gil.

You're making assumptions here that the LS didn't front the glass cost, replenishing itself using currency won on the run while the sponsor simply took that currency as a loss. Every shell went about entry fees differently and most of the smarter groups paid glass costs from currency/drops and simply had individuals split cost on CoP due to the lack of currency in those zones.

Why would someone with low playtime be chosen as the sponsor in the first place? The ideal sponsor was an individual who played often enough to not only attend their runs but also make progress on their own time. The worst sponsors were individuals who simply relied completely on the group to make progress.

This is purely conjecture on my behalf however. There were groups who completely funded every ounce of an individuals currency from stage 1-5.


Of course, this wasn't true if you went whole-hog exploitation-style and had a sponsor-Dynamis LS that required members to pay for the glass every run. Now that was exploitation in its finest.

And at the end of day, if you saw bullshit going down (or got your drops) you were free to leave the system.

Yes, there is no denying that some groups ran some exceptionally dishonest linkshells full of guilt-trips, currency funneling and slanted runs but we can't simply forget the other groups who ran tight ships with fair rules. Fair being what you perceive as balanced rules.

Ive been apart of linkshells that were both.

[Ravenmore]

Paddling though the sea of crap to find the one island is not what new players to dnya were able to do. These are the players that /shout shells used since just starting dyna you didn't know any better. By time you did you already invested to much time to just leave for a new shell. Once these get what they are after they quit dyna and hold the view of relic holders being users. What were there more of shout group shells that formed from jeuno shouts or the good fair shells.

[Sparthos]

Honestly, most of XI is paddling through a sea of idiots to find an island refuge where some people have the slightest idea of what they are doing.

[Byrth]

Paddling though the sea of crap to find the one island is not what new players to dnya were able to do. These are the players that /shout shells used since just starting dyna you didn't know any better. By time you did you already invested to much time to just leave for a new shell. Once these get what they are after they quit dyna and hold the view of relic holders being users. What were there more of shout group shells that formed from jeuno shouts or the good fair shells.

Pretty much this.

Dynamis allowed high playtime players to exploit low playtime players because low playtime players devoted 8 of their 16 hours a week to Dynamis instead of farming gil so they could potentially pay for the Dynamis glass. They also wasted a good portion of their remaining 8 hours a week doing things like re-buffering and farming so they can pay for Echo drops/reraise items. It's not that they couldn't show up for events, it's that the event consumed enough of their time that sponsorship was an unreasonable goal. If you aren't sponsoring in a sponsor shell, then you're not profiting.

Do low playtime players not deserve to profit from the time they spend doing an event? Sponsorship was a roadblock to this no matter how you cut it.

Also, I'm speaking more from the experiences of my friends that have bitched to me while in such shells than from personal experience above. I saw where the money was going about two runs after joining my first "sponsor" Dynamis shell and quit. They were terrible players and it was unprofitable. A few months later, I was a part of one of the first sell/split Dynamis groups on my server. It tanked when the leader quit, so I joined a big shell that did everything (including Dynamis), and then a few years later I helped lead another sell/split Dynamis group.

I distributed an average of ~350k/city run and ~100k/outlands and negative/nothing from CoP (all of the profits). The shell wasn't exactly a super-exclusive elite-fest, everything was "comment four items," and after your first run everyone was equal. We had a pretty regular and small group, so there were no real lotting issues and we were (at most) only gunning for a few of each item. Dynamis went from being a 3 hour chore to a fun way for people to make gil. The AF you wanted didn't drop? Doesn't matter, we each made 300k.

[Insaniac]

It's okay to exploit dumb people. Got it!

Never said that at all. However, if you were dumb enough to stay in a shell like that for more than 1 run it's as much your fault that you are being abused as it is the person making up the crappy rules.


Paddling though the sea of crap to find the one island is not what new players to dnya were able to do. These are the players that /shout shells used since just starting dyna you didn't know any better. By time you did you already invested to much time to just leave for a new shell. Once these get what they are after they quit dyna and hold the view of relic holders being users. What were there more of shout group shells that formed from jeuno shouts or the good fair shells.

Was it really that hard? People did it all the time. Joined starter shells to get their city flags and bounced as soon as they met the requirements to be in the shell they really wanted to be in. Also, you are implying that all shout shells were formed simply for the purpose of using people. That's just dumb. Every shell shouted for people when they needed them and there were enough of them to find one that suited you. Playing less or being new to dynamis wouldn't have affected anyone's ability to do this.

[Ravenmore]

Never said that at all. However, if you were dumb enough to stay in a shell like that for more than 1 run it's as much your fault that you are being abused as it is the person making up the crappy rules.



Was it really that hard? People did it all the time. Joined starter shells to get their city flags and bounced as soon as they met the requirements to be in the shell they really wanted to be in. Also, you are implying that all shout shells were formed simply for the purpose of using people. That's just dumb. Every shell shouted for people when they needed them and there were enough of them to find one that suited you. Playing less or being new to dynamis wouldn't have affected anyone's ability to do this.

Every shell shouted for people when they needed bodies really. The good shell had lines to get into so you were still stuck with the trash. Not just they were goodenough to get windy win with out agrroing the death house but good as in farming xaca and killing DL. Those shells that sold and spilt coins not just give relics away to suck up leaders.

[Atomic_Skull]

Yeah, most every endgame shell on Asura cheated in one fashion or another

Isn't Asura the Australia of FFXI though?

[Insaniac]

Time to agree to disagree.

[Ilax]

I am surprise there another thread about this, even more surprise how people generally look at it the wrong way, in term of time you going to spend on dyna relic and on empy is the same, to not say Empy is even more time consuming (specially if you take Chloris or Glavoid path).

The only reason there more empy then dynamis relic is because of the limitation of time you can spend in dynamis, lift off the time limit (2h) in dynamis, and trust me you would be able to do a relic in 1 week also.

This been discussed in other thread, but seem people just trying push more thread and talk about the same thing =P You guyz probably have better success to ask SE to remove the 2h limitation in dyna at this point.

For salavage is the same deal, exept!!! mythic you need way more then just alex, and that imo make them way more harder then empy and dyna relic.