PUP demoted to 20th place.. by COR? [Archive]

StingRay104

06-29-2011, 09:42 PM

Ya what Jar said, lots of people have leveled cor for many reasons, sure they may not play it anymore but they still leveled it, hell my cor is lvl 68. I think most people avoid pup cuz of the lolpup stigma and those who look past that see we still have ai problems and it costs alot to invest in your auto, and what you get out of it is no invites and endgame shells ignoring you. I think its a shame cuz I love usin my pup, I have helped my friends duo and trio nms in aby with my pup. I think if people would just give the job a chance then they would realize that its a very fun job.

Arcon

06-29-2011, 10:19 PM

What are those devs smoking...

It's not like the Devs manually counted the jobs and made the list, it was generated from whatever was in the database.

Mazero

06-30-2011, 01:37 AM

I quite like to think there is not many ppl playing Puppetmaster it makes me feel unique and not on the band wagon i think i will not like it as much if SE gives them somthing so good that they are best job in the game cause then everyone will be on it

Seha

07-01-2011, 01:13 AM

Main job: cor
Second job: pup

I'm that special!

Alhanelem

07-01-2011, 10:42 AM

Don't look at it as a decrease in popularity: the total percentage of PUPs actually rose, just not as much as COR.

The top jobs all experienced a decrease in numbers, so the less popular jobs have a bigger share as a result.

MarkovChain

07-02-2011, 04:04 AM

Xanaduu

07-03-2011, 07:00 PM

i guess Markov never lvld pup... total waste of a comment >.> lvl it, play it, learn it... then pass judgment, till then.... just waaaaaaalk way away from here.

Annalise

07-05-2011, 03:41 AM

Elvyn

07-05-2011, 10:43 PM

Honestly not much changed since the last vanadiel census. COR and PUP both suck. COR is a fail attempt at doing a BRD and PUP will always not be a MNK. MNK #1, PUP #20 and it's not because of verethragna or victory smite because both jobs have it.

Trollololololol >.....................................>

I like the idea that PUP isn't a "bandwagon" job like MNK, its means (or at least implies) most of the PUP are more skilled in the job (This holds true on Cerb at higher lvls, not sure about other servers)

Alhanelem

07-06-2011, 01:07 AM

Cor's position has nothing whatsoever to do with COR sucking and everything to do with it being expensive.

Similarly, To play PUP to its fullest requires a fair amount of cash as well. But those who do so absolutely can fight alongside most DDs. PUP is no longer a bottom tier job in performance.

MarkovChain

07-06-2011, 03:12 AM

COR is cheap PUP requires 7,500,000 gil just to pay for your attachements "bro". They need to use oils as well and food. And no, even with that PUP is pretty weak DD which is crap, and I'm not even quantifying its inferior tanking or healng "skill". But maybe you will run numbers for us ? The best estimations I've seen/done put PUP at 80% of a monk DD-wise. And yes that's with a puppet (that sucks). One of the main problem is that the use of manoeuvers considerably weakens your damage output since it systematically puts a 2 second delay during wich you do not attack, so the best way to take the max out of job is to *not* use manoeuvers or a limited use. Then there is the fact that pup's delay sucks, monk can cap delay and pup can't etc etc. Then there are AOE-retarded endgame content (every thing). Then there is the fact that BLM nukes better, WHM heals better etc. Playing PUP is like curing tanking on PLD. You don't really know why you are here.

Moink

07-06-2011, 03:58 AM

Pchan... you are the global epitome for why Facepalming was developed. I've seen you on your PUP more than I have on your MNK. I'm not using that as a defense to say PUP is better than MNK but you sure do know how to bad mouth a job you always used in full Usukane.

Alhanelem

07-06-2011, 04:55 AM

COR is cheap PUP requires 7,500,000 gil just to pay for your attachements "bro".1) All the attchments don't cost anywhere near that much in total on Shiva

2) COR dice cost almost as much and only come from NPCs, so there's no chance of the price going lower; COR also has to spend gil on ammo and cards constantly while PUP doesn't. PUP does have the repair oil but that's not absolutely necessary to the job most of the time.

MarkovChain

07-06-2011, 05:20 AM

1) All the attchments don't cost anywhere near that much in total on Shiva

Good thing for you that FFXIAH is down atm.

EDIT : They cost around 9.1M on shiva lulz

2) COR dice cost almost as much and only come from NPCs, so there's no chance of the price going lower;

Probably because your can't count .. or something. A wiki, what is it ? I count ~ 1.250M for all rolls.

COR also has to spend gil on ammo and cards constantly while PUP doesn't. PUP does have the repair oil but that's not absolutely necessary to the job most of the time.

Repairing is absolutely necessary if you want to keep your pet alive. Try to play the job ? Everything is aoe spammy on pretty much any content. Role reversal might not be ready at anytime etc. And OMG at card costing ... basically nothing. 50g a card, oh my god !!! Bullet ? so what ? GL spending 7M on anything during a reasonable amount of time.

PS : Is moink that gimp PUP that flamed me because I refused to befriend him on qcdn lolz?

PPS : before anyone mentions it 7M is nothing (~ 700k of yesterday). A BLM has to spend a lot more, YET It ranks second among level 90 players ...

Alhanelem

07-06-2011, 04:59 PM

Repairing is absolutely necessary if you want to keep your pet alive.I play the job all the damn time. Repair is rarely absolutely necessary. It is most needed with sharpshot, but more often than not, you can just use role reversal and pop a potion or have someone heal you, or use a healing salve if you're in abyssea.

Also, you're a fool if you buy every single attachment; the two most important ones cost less than 3 mil in total, most of the orther core attachements are less than 10k from NPCs, others are easily found from normal mobs and NMs. I can guarantee you this much: I didn't spend 9 mil, 7 mil or even 5 mil on attachments. Other than the NPC bought ones, the only 1mil+ attachment I bought was the turbo charger. You can also deduct several hundred K if you have some imperial standing. All the newest attachments i've seen selling for as much as 100k when they were new (not as much now but still a lot), but they can be yours for 20k imperial standing total. Unless you only started recently, you probably have a fair amount of unused imperial standing.

COR has no choice but to buy all the dice from NPCs; BLMs can hunt and farm most of their scrolls if they have the patience. Cor also has a much higher ongoing cost to play than PUP, this is absolutely undisputable. If you have to use repair oil so often that you're spending more on oil than a COR does on bullets in cards, you're doing something SEIROUSLY wrong. "So what?" to bullets? Obviously you have no idea how fast you can go through them. It's either use bad bullets, or pay up the wazoo, or never shoot except to weaponskill. PUP on the other hand, can continue to function at more or less full capacity even if the automaton dies, thanks to deus ex- You are never without your automaton for more than 60 seconds.

If you think PUP costs more to play than either COR or RNG being played to their full potential, then you've got some re-calculating to do.

Xanaduu

07-06-2011, 08:51 PM

another reason i like pup... besides food and they extremely inexpensive oils (like a side trip to an npc for a stack or 2 of oils is really that much of a pain) pup is pretty much just pick up and play like u would any other job, but w/ pup u get multiple roles in 1 job, and thankfully u DONT have to buy ammo for SS frame or spells for mage frames. Is pup mnk? no, so y even compare them? pup however is quite a bit more fun though^^ atleast to me.
With dmg output... we r pretty amazing, even when we use maneuvers during combat, it's knowing what to do and when. As for cost... i wont argue that it can get expensive... but that varies greatly from server to server and like Alhan said pup has ways of getting the attachments in other ways... where as w/ cor, its all fixed to an npc. bullets get really expensive if u play cor as a DD (which i try to... but gil been tight :P). elemental cards arent expensive but the majority come from a guild type shop in nashmau and when they sell out... they out, otherwise u need to skill alchemy, either way u gotta jump through hoops to get everything u need.
i guess my point is~ actually idk what point i was trying to make XD but lordy dont complain about the cost of a job or "omg its not a mnk or rng or war so it has to LOLsuck" if u wanna play a cheaper job then go play 1... (though if u were around back in the day, O-kote were like 10m, cross counters were up there 2... so mnk wasnt cheap either..) but all jobs r diffrent and cost diffrent amounts to play and use properly, it all depends on how u wanna play @.@

P.S. job rank in the census really doesnt mean a dang thing @.@ just silly numbers attributed to "wow that job can do alot! ima abyssea spam lvl it!" and also.... dont make personal atks on pple... just makes u look more like 1 of the jerks out there :P

P.S.S. END OF MY TEXT WALL!

Alhanelem

07-07-2011, 01:09 AM

I wish oil stacked 99.

MarkovChain

07-07-2011, 03:25 AM

I can guarantee you this much: I didn't spend 9 mil, 7 mil or even 5 mil on attachments. Other than the NPC bought ones, the only 1mil+ attachment I bought was the turbo charger. You can also deduct several hundred K if you have some imperial standing. All the newest attachmements i've seen selling for as much as 100k when they were new (not as much now but still a lot), but they can be yours for 20k imperial standing total. Unless you only started recently, you probably have a fair amount of unused imperial standing.

Is this how you aswer when proven wrong ? Seriously, troll less. You are admitting to play PUP gimp, and since you CHOOSE to play the job the gimp way, by not buying ANY usefull attachement (except one), anyone should play like you and as such pup is supposed to be less expensive than COR ? That's not how it works. Secondly noone cares about the trash attachement that sell for essentially nothing at the npc or the AH (less than 100k). All the expensive ones come from a BCNM. I mean yes you can get them solo (trio actually since you need 3 to enter though one of them is an easy solo with a non fail job, aka not a pup), but with the rate at which you get an attachement and the limit per day you are better of buying with money, because time is money doh.

Moink

07-07-2011, 03:51 AM

Pchan, I would never be friend you on QCDN, this site or any other site that yourself may appear on. Befriending you would be like befriending the bubonic plague.

Also, if your needing to use Repair Oils on a much more needed basis for a cure than Role Reversal... you're doing something wrong. PUP is no different than a BLM needing all the scrolls, once you have them you don't need to continue buying them. Its not a perma gilsink like nin, cor or other jobs that have to buy items to continue to keep their job at its prime.

MarkovChain

07-07-2011, 05:35 AM

P.S. job rank in the census really doesnt mean a dang thing @.@ just silly numbers attributed to "wow that job can do alot! ima abyssea spam lvl it!" and also.... dont make personal atks on pple... just makes u look more like 1 of the jerks out there :P
P.S.S. END OF MY TEXT WALL!

No it means it's the best job, it's that simple. People thinking otherwise don't really understand what happens arounds them. If there are that many verethragna (compared to woe wpns), it's not because vere is more fun to farm.

Reason for pup to be last are :

a pet that sucks at DDing on any frame
a job that sucks at Dding because it is slow, can't cap delay
a job that can't tank serious crap
a job that can't solo better than bst
a job that is penalized for using it's JA

Reason for cor to be last

All good DDs cap attack without it
All good DDs cap delay without it
All good mages don't need extra refresh tics
All other rolls improve performance by less than 5%, not worth 1 slot in the party.
COR sucks at DDing obviously

Alhanelem

07-07-2011, 09:51 AM

a pet that sucks at DDing on any frame - nonsense
a job that sucks at Dding because it is slow, can't cap delay
a job that can't tank serious crap - It's not meant to be a tank in the first place, therefore this isn't a minus
a job that can't solo better than bst - BULL FARKING SHIAT
a job that is penalized for using it's JA - no, it's notPUP does not suck, plain and simple. Its lack of pupularity is due to past stigma and the fact that it doesn't really stand out, even though it's easily a mid tier job when played properly

The percentage of people with a specific main job, below the top 3 or 4 has little correlation with how good the job actually is.

As previously noted, as well, the gap between the most popular and least popular jobs has decreased substantially.

MarkovChain

07-07-2011, 08:56 PM

No the gap between job increased. The game is less balanced now than last year. You got one type of content, a select number of useful jobs for procs, one useful job for tank, one useful job for cure, one useful job for th etc. All I see is that after claiming cor is last because it is expensive, you try to move to a next argument for pup. I mean out of of 100 players you can only find one pup and one cor.

Xanaduu

07-07-2011, 09:57 PM

good lord... do u have pup or cor lvld? u seem to know so little @.@, btw... not buying every attachment doesnt make u gimp... theres only a handful of useful 1s that r always used over others~ so just buying the mainstay 1s makes perfect sense. "omg i dont have reactive shield, i must be gimp!" >.>.
I also really dont know how big of a deal the being "penalized" for using JAs is... i mean... example: puppet has say... 90% tp, if u have the emp shoes u can WS > tactical switch > WS again > SC... oh my... 6-8k dmg later... for real, our dmg potential comes from pulling tricks out of a hat. puppet died from aoes? deus ex > cureVI > deactivate > activate > rdy to go again, some of it may take time but thats what u learn to deal with >.>.
Tanking? >.> does tanking T3 cerb in abyssea altepa while the mnk recovered from KO count? can it solo tank w/o a healer? nope.. just like that mnk, y he died. as far as soloing... ur comparing it to another job of which the only thing it has in common is a pet that is completely diffrent than the other uses.... and again... less pups in the world make us all that more unique...
so b4 u start typing again in this thread... study the jobs... see what they can do... u might be surprised... u might not, but ffs its a fun job, dont try and spoil it cause u cant let a silly notion go.

Proud to be a non-cookie cutter player! ...and a non-pink mnk! LOL

xbobx

07-07-2011, 11:16 PM

funny how I out damage pretty much any job I come up against in abyessa, but yes we suck. We can do 8k self chains everytime we get tp which is fairly fast now. I have tanked some of the harder mobs in the game in nin or mnk has died.
People have actually started to ask me to come pup over my other jobs now when they want damage, and I pull hate easily now and have to hold back sometimes. and fyi that is just my dmg not including puppet that is doing 500 dmg crits ever other hit and 3.5k ws along with my avg 3-4k ws.
not sure what game you are playing.

MarkovChain

07-08-2011, 01:20 AM

Same as yours except in the game I play the mob dies right after the ws so there is no time for any skillchain. By the time you prepare for SC any DD is getting one full TPs.

Alhanelem

07-08-2011, 03:43 AM

No the gap between job increased.You're talking about something totally different. I'm talking about the actual popularity of jobs, not which job is stronger or weaker.

The previous census, white mage had a 14% share, in the top spot, and PUP and SMN and a couple other jobs were all near 1%.

Now, the lowest job (PUP) has a 2% share, and the highest job has only a 10% share.

You also clearly don't play PUP and haven't played with a good one or you would know just how much better PUP is now. You also clearly have no clue if you think BST is better. PUP will outdamage BST any day of the week, and can solo just as well.

Same as yours except in the game I play the mob dies right after the ws so there is no time for any skillchain.Not on normal mobs, no. But on NMs, yes, you can skillchain.

You're just a bandwagon LOLer. Hey, look, that job is the least popular, therefor it sucks LOLPUP! LOLDRG!

Popularity does not correlate directly with strength.

MarkovChain

07-09-2011, 01:24 AM

I'm not a "bandwagon lol'er" I actually had pup at 75 with perfect gear. Noone cares honestly what you do on NMs they are all brewed by stacks of 12 ... And even in case you tank them it's always better to put a monk due to a better damage/TP given ratio and a better killing speed (like anyone cares about min maxing anyway ?). The reason people don't play pup is that you can't do anything serious on it. I'm tired of the "bandwagon PUP defenders" personally, because you guys are making it sound like pup doesn't give serious job adjustments. It took time for SE to do some obvious ones (like a non retarded H2H skill, lower than dagger). As of now I still don't see why PUP isn't A+ on H2H because it should be a DD. After all the lower delay on martial arts is enough of a penalty (and why should there be one in the first place ? MNKs have impetus and counterstance). Obviously the mages pets require higher magic accuracy and the melee pets a serious ws paired with an ability to copy the master's haste buffs (the other buffs don't mater).

Alhanelem

07-09-2011, 04:36 PM

I'm not a "bandwagon lol'er" I actually had pup at 75 with perfect gear. Noone cares honestly what you do on NMs they are all brewed by stacks of 12Maybe you have 9238457632432 cruor and brew everything but not everyone else does. And whether or not it's better to do this or that, sometimes people don't have this or that job. For me, PUP is more fun to play, and I care about the enjoyment factor while playing something we call a "game." That said, you keep talking about PUP tanking. PUP doesn't tank. it's like every other non-MNK DD, they don't want to have hate if they have any choice in the matter. And any time you have a MNK or some other tank already there, PUP doesn't really have a problem. You can go MNK and be awesome all you want. Those of us who would rather play PUP can still use the job and accomplish whatever we set out to do.

As of now I still don't see why PUP isn't A+ on H2H because it should be a DD.If PUP HTH was A+ it would probably be borderline too strong. Impetus, I agree, challenges that notion now, frankly I see the ability getting nerfed though. :p

We aren't "bandwagon PUP defenders." I've never even heard such a thing. We, or at least I, are people who are serious about the job and who know what it's capable of. We defend it because it's worthy of our defense, not just for the sake of having something to defend.

Magic auto's MAB potential is just fine, and I've never had a problem landing spells. Both sharpshot and valoredge now have good weapon skills they can use whenever Tactical Switch is down.

Leonlionheart

07-09-2011, 06:29 PM

@Pchan: lolmnk

WAR shits all over MNK in Abyssea, and likewise everything else.

"MNK+WHM can duo anything"

WAR+WHM can duo whatever a MNK can, and in less time. It's Abyssea for Christ's sake.

MarkovChain

07-09-2011, 07:19 PM

Using that logic bst can solo anything so the job is superior to anything. I am tired of the friendless bandwagon bg trolls. If a melee job is superior to any other in abyssea it is NOT mnk nor war it is ninja.

Also, nope war doesn't beat monk and it never did. Also abyssea belongs to the past now get over it already. If you still have stuff to do over there I think your war might not be as great as you pretend it to be.

Leonlionheart

07-09-2011, 07:35 PM

MarkovChain

07-09-2011, 08:52 PM

Troll less

Alhanelem

07-10-2011, 12:48 AM

You're the one trolling if you're really posing the idea that NIN is the top end of the top tier.

Leonlionheart

07-10-2011, 10:00 AM

Troll less

Next time I'll let you know that if you don't have a brd then DRK is better than MNK too

MarkovChain

07-10-2011, 08:17 PM

Congrats on beating CoP "before the caps were taken off" like 95% of the playerbase and achieving 4 level 75 before abyssea !

Alhanelem

07-11-2011, 12:36 AM

Actually CoP had a very low completion rate. Just because you did something doesn't mean "95%" of everyone did.

//LOL @ the troll telling other people to stop trolling

MarkovChain

07-11-2011, 04:48 AM

On my server even US were getting it done and that was 2005... So yeah, it was cake. JP had done it for 1 year but hey, they are JP, they didn't start with cop. And for your info there were several graduals nerfs before the level cap removal... The difficulty reputation existed because most noobs couldn't even get to the crags' bcnm area without agroing and multiple deaths. Other than that 2 bcnms were not trioable. I know because I did them for mules to spam the Vahzl ENM for toreador's ring.

Leonlionheart

07-11-2011, 05:50 AM

Congrats on beating CoP "before the caps were taken off" like 95% of the playerbase and achieving 4 level 75 before abyssea !

Thank you!

Alhanelem

07-12-2011, 03:37 PM

On my server even US were getting it done and that was 2005Again just because you know people who did something doesn't mean everyone did it. You have no idea how long some people got stuck on certain missions.

Almost a third of all players have not gotten past "Ancient Flame Becokns" in CoP. Less than half of everyone has completed the final chapter:
http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/guide/development/census/10/6.html
(Note that except for the first page which mentions them, level 1 characters e.g. mules are not included in this)

Ustav

07-12-2011, 05:52 PM

Honestly not much changed since the last vanadiel census. COR and PUP both suck. COR is a fail attempt at doing a BRD and PUP will always not be a MNK. MNK #1, PUP #20 and it's not because of verethragna or victory smite because both jobs have it.
OMG could you sound more ignorant. Cor is a great support job but unfortunately(due to atmas) its now somewhat forgotten. As for pup... you have no clue how to properly play the job. You have good gear but you lack proper brain function to be able to use it to it's full potential(lol using Spiritreaver on JoL)

Lyrminas

07-12-2011, 07:56 PM

Markov sounds like... Jar... He gets you pumped up and just when you think he's gonna give you a valid argument, he blows his leg off while keeping a straight face on...

Koroma

07-12-2011, 09:02 PM

Toa jobs and bst have always been highly unpopular abyssea changed jobs around though alot, blu increased for procs, bst increased because all the ppl not good enough to lvl bst normaly abyessa gimped it and every's mule's mule's sister's cousin's dog has nin lvled to solo lesser nm's.

MarkovChain

07-13-2011, 04:21 AM

Again just because you know people who did something doesn't mean everyone did it. You have no idea how long some people got stuck on certain missions.

Almost a third of all players have not gotten past "Ancient Flame Becokns" in CoP. Less than half of everyone has completed the final chapter:
http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/guide/development/census/10/6.html
(Note that except for the first page which mentions them, level 1 characters e.g. mules are not included in this)

At least when you try to prove something is hard try to compare it to similar content.

30% have RotZ completed, a missions series that can be done in one single day.
50% have CoP completed (yes, more than rotz).
30% have ToAU completed
5% have Wotg completed

CoP are the most completed missions, therefore they ARE the easiest missions. Even abyssea has 30% completion rate only.

Just because you fail at doing cutscenes doesn't mean every one does.

Before the nerf of cop this was the situation :

http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/guide/development/census/07/09mission.html

30% were on one of the last 2 RotZ missions
25% were on the final CoP mission, this was in 2007 so 4 YEARS ago, the difficulty was intact to the one of the initial releases.

Excerps from 2007 census :

Next, we have some mission progression data from Chains of Promathia (released globally on September 16, 2004). The difficulty of these missions is widely known; however, the fact that 25% of players have reached the final chapter and the spoils it has to offer, shows a strong bond of friendship and teamwork among our community.

Get friends and stop crying.

Leonlionheart

07-13-2011, 03:30 PM

Markov sounds like... Jar... He gets you pumped up and just when you think he's gonna give you a valid argument, he blows his leg off while keeping a straight face on...

^

trolls gonna troll

Ahtos

07-13-2011, 07:23 PM

Well the real question is, why you guys still try to argue with a troll ? ^^ Just let it go, you just feed his desire for attention. Check the FFXIAH forum and you know what leets, troll, moron or w/e you wanna call him he is, ignore him and everything is fine ^^

Kimble

07-14-2011, 02:57 AM

COP has a higher completion rate because you need to actually beat all of COP to get the main reward (rajas ring)

RoTZ isnt as high of a completion rate because you get the main reward (suppa, etc) at Divine might and unless you want to do Apoc nigh, most people stopped there and didnt bother to finish ROTZ.

Alhanelem

07-14-2011, 04:02 AM

At least when you try to prove something is hard try to compare it to similar content.It's not even about being hard. I'm simply pointing out that the claim that "95%" of people have done this or that is plain wrong.

I don't give a rats arse how easy or hard each mission actually is. You simply cant assume that everyone has done something just because it's "easy."