Summoner ~ Updating Avatars & Elemental Spirits. Blood pacts, wards, and spell list.

[Covenant]

Yes, another thread.

I'd like to re-examine both summoner's avatars and spirits current play styles and possible update their future usefulness. I'd also like to examine what made Summoners uniquely great when compared to Blackmages, Redmages, and now scholars. More importantly, I'm going to gripe about how Summoners fell behind. Finally, I'll make suggestion on how I think SquareEnix can "fix" both avatars and spirits not only from lvl 90-99, but reexamine lvls 1-90.


Spirits unfortunately are a bad joke, used primarily for an "escpae" from danger or MP regen through, elemental siphon. Avatars, offer more control but are severly limited by bloodpact and ward delays. While party buffs are used, they're highmp cost and short durations(average player, not skill builds) are medic ore. With a few being used repeatedly, namely predator claws, healing ruby?, stoneskin etc. And other all but forgotten(individual strikes etc.)


As for what made Summoners great, avatars being "elemental" usually received specific spells and abilities before other jobs. For example, Summoners got ALL tier II spells at level 10, while a blackmages received theirs at lvl 26-46. At level 60 avatars all received their tier IV nukes, while blackmages began at 68-75. AnD when a spirit was able to actually cast a nuke, they too could potentially match tier skill level of a blackmages. Redmages, received unique spells at earlier level(I think) than WHM, however Ramuh and shiva matched both Enspell, spike, and hastaga.


While up to level 60 this seems like powerful aid, something went wrong. Maybe poor planning, or a simple wish to restrain a summoner twice over by first delay in pact and ward use, but by restricting magical strength. Summoners lost a lot of ground to blackmages. First with the introduction of ANcient magic and AMII. And the slide continued to present day Vanadiel. Not only, could avatars not bloodpact quickly matching a blackmages versatility(nukes tier III-AMII) of all elementals as long as mp and enimity held, we suddenly became "capped" at level 75 spell lists. Blackmages not only received Tier V's but the new -ra spells. A fully merited summoner blood acts could be useful but would hardly make up for the loss of AM or -ra spells. As for spirits, complete fail are spell list locking them to casting cycles with several completely useless spells(all debuffs and buffs) by at lvl75 also.


How do I see "fixing" both avatars and spirits? Well, SquareEnix would have to reexamine both in their entirety from lvl 1-99.

Avatars:
1/Create level 15 "enspellara" for each avatar, granting specific espell to party(scholars now have this via /RDM and accession.
2/create level 5 "bar spells" for each avatar, as with WHM, except without the /WHM.
3/create level 70 "enspellara II" for each avatar, granting the same effects as enspell2.
4/create lvl 50 "bar spells II's" granting not only greater resistance, but chance of elemental absorption.
5/ create a lvl X "Helix strike" which grants a moderate strike with "Helix 2" strength. (I don't know helix strength numbers, example maybe 100-200pts/tic duration 1minute?). This one tricky, do to multi-strike pacts. If placed lower than those should have lower output, if placed higher,in leu of tier V's they should be stronger than strikes or merit pacts.
6/ if NO, helix then all avatars should receive their -ra spells(the new nukes?) at lvl 80.
7/ with use of bloodwards, all avatars create a field of weather for short duration, matching a scholars storm spells.
8/ all avatars should have a natural appropriate Enspell on them when summoned. Can be overwritten by the Enspellara 2 versions while duration last.
9/ avatars if not given helix or -ra spells, should have bloodwards "spike-ara II's. These are pure elemental damage spikes as blaze, ice, and thunder. OR, increased potency to a tier II versions of blinkaga, stoneskinaga, hastega, blazespikeaga, etc.

One new summons I'd like to see is the big moogle, Kupofried from "A koopo d'état".
Imagine a summons that higher tier versions of Fi finder and treasure hunter. Also, unique moves and an astral flow that summoner 6 regular moogles to do a "dance of doom" as in The old FF series II or II(American version). The mob is already programmed in the game why not use the code?

Spirits:
1/ increase the spell cycle lists from 1-99.
2/ increase the physical damage down even greater then what's available to avatars even through blood pacts.
3/ either increase the rate of "nuke" casting by eliminating buff/debuff cycles, OR, keep casting the same but increase the spirits melee delay.
4/ all spirits should be summoned WITH appropriate enspells and spikes already in place to match skill level. (for example, a summoner lvl 50 earth elemental would have both enstone II and stoneskin up, if summoner only lvl 16, same spirit would only have enstone up but not stoneskin.)

2 new spirits could be added that match both the chaos elemental and magic sludge NM's look and certain casting tendencies. Lock a nuking behavior to these specific types, but eliminate their melee'n capabilities. I see the chaos elemental as the strong nuker and magic sludge as the strong debuffer. Each could have access to the newer nukes like helix, -ra, and higher II or III debuffs.

There are two major concerns I can see. First, none of my suggestions relate to the delay problems of pacts and words. Second, if SquareEnix were to adapt any changes this would require extensive changes to regular mobs behaviors, almost requiring a complete rewrite and balancing issue. I can boil down my "improvements" even further to just 2 phrase matched in many threads. First, avatars needs improved pact and wards list to include lvl 1-99. Second, spirits need a reason to be out nuking ONLY and/or "tanking".

Please feel free to add, change, or critic my suggestions. I'd also like to apologize for the length of them the thread.

[Malamasala]

Yes, another thread.

But this thread has a wall of text. I suggest cutting the initial part up a bit, the end of your post looks completely fine.

[RAIST]

nice ideas for SE to look at... but man.... thought I was bad about walls of text....

/signed in the hopes SE will consider working towards some of these ideas.

[Covenant]

I was wondering about adding a sorta "boost" /pet command for elemental spirits. This "boost" would create a 1min timer that creates an unstable spirit. Basically, causing the spirit to "rage" and increase stats and casting nukes more often. Perhaps doubling mp perp costs?

I was looking at the whole numbing argument of spirits and decided to be fair. If at best predator claw or merit Bloodpacts do is 1k(conservative set.). Why should a spirit go casting crazy and cast a tier III, IV, or AM(1 or two) in that same time frame as avatars. I'd still like to see spirits ability to "tank" and melee go up, rather than just be a nuker.

I don't know the casting time frame for an average BLM, what I mean what is the max spell and damage I BLM can get off in 1min? Let pretend it's 2k. A summon swinging a staff and as plus an avatar or spirit nuking should be equal. Meaning a summoner swing and hitting for, let say 200-400damage in a minute plus a bloodpact for 1.2k plus regular avatar melee swings should come close to 2k or more.

[Earwig]

Smn needs something, badly. I've actually stopped using mine because it just can't compete with other jobs in endgame. And the spirits - They need all the spells!

[Bubeeky]

maybe there could be an ultimate summon, like Odin, with Shiva as his wife, wearing carbuncle as a hat, and fenrir as his loyal pet puppy, Alexander his wife (shiva)'s steed, garuda as their living airplane, ifrit as their toaster, Levi as their drinking water, and ramuh as their entrance flair :) not sure what powers such a summon would possess, but it would be awesome to see such an entourage trailing behind a teeny taru that's like 1/100th of its size lol

[Covenant]

@bubeeky. Sounds like an awesome summons. To think you'd take all that time to hate when you can have done something constructive.

[Covenant]

Hmm came across these Abyssean elementals and thought to myself how nice here are Summoners tier 2 spirits.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Elemental

Each of these have 2 elements they can cast from. A bit of reworking to decrease casting times or at least eliminate non essential casting (buff/debuff).

[Malamasala]

Yea, the new elementals won't do a thing to help SMN, unless the original spirit issues are resolved first.

[Korpg]

There is an issue with spirits?

[Razushu]

There is an issue with spirits?

They aren't good pets.

I never got the feeling they were there for anything more than emergency interference/siphon. And other niche things. We have 9(soon to be 11 hopefully) other more powerful/useful pets, 2hrs aside. That are also in need of a buff. I'd rather SE focus on things to do with them, like increasing buff potency and their DPS against tougher opponents. If they find time somewhere to tweak spirits... fine, but it would be better for SMN if this was the bottom of the list when they think of us.

[Malamasala]

To make an analogy. Weak spirits is like a leaky roof. Ignoring it will not make your house crumble, but it won't make your house stronger. I.e. fixing spirits makes Summoner more versatile, leaving them alone lets us be as good as we are now.

Raz is a typical person who'd live in a leaky roof house though.

[Razushu]

To make an analogy. Weak spirits is like a leaky roof. Ignoring it will not make your house crumble, but it won't make your house stronger. I.e. fixing spirits makes Summoner more versatile, leaving them alone lets us be as good as we are now.

Raz is a typical person who'd live in a leaky roof house though.

In all honesty spirits with limited use is more like the back fence needing a coat of paint(not badly just slightly overdue).

Weak melee(example) from avatars is more akin to a leaky roof in this scenario. I for one would leave the back fence another week to fix the roof first.

Whatever they do or don't to spirits it would never make someone summon them over an avatar(unless they're the type that insists on doing things the less useful way). Let's face it they're not going to boost the spirits in any way way that makes them near as good as our avatars(because they're gods), and as such this boost would be the equivalent of boosting the damage on "Iron Tempest". I'm sure the WARs would say "gee thanks SE, maybe you could have fixed something useful".

We have 9 great pets that fulfill all our needs at the moment, that could use a little love as is. Why would SE waste the time they could be spending buffing them on improving pets that we don't use anyway. That will need to be keep weaker than our avatars anyway.

[Korpg]

To make an analogy. Weak spirits is like a leaky roof. Ignoring it will not make your house crumble, but it won't make your house stronger. I.e. fixing spirits makes Summoner more versatile, leaving them alone lets us be as good as we are now.

Raz is a typical person who'd live in a leaky roof house though.

Must be a really weak leak. I mean, spirits are ok as they are, they aren't made to be super nukers if you think about it.

[Covenant]

I just like that fact that "potentially" you could have 2 nukes(NM) rather then 1 nuke(spirits). Yes, spell list longer but a bit of reworking could give use nukes from lvl75~99 range and less useful spells, enstone for example or Silence.

People would just have to work out the spell list of the dual nataure NM elementals in Abyssea. See if SE buffed their castings and what types.

Plus, since they already exist IN-GAME, how much harder to program them for player use?

[Arciel]

Spirits are really just the C-grade choice in a SMNs arsenal.

They're not used for both the reason that they aren't good enough to warrant using, and also that they're not very convenient to.

For now, an Elemental's use is mainly in Siphon and then magic procs in Abyssea.
but then if we have it update its spell repertoire, (like adding tier V) it'll halve their use for magic procs lol.

one other problem with them really is their magic accuracy, which is kinda pathetic against stronger mobs. BPs have the advantage of skill over cap to help with accuracy but spells dont and have to rely on avatar: m.acc gear. damage is also affected by avatar: mab but other than these 2, you don't have much to work with.

With most of the new SMN gear putting focus on Blood Boon and BP damage, this marginalizes the spirits even more because they become even more irrelevant with mainstream SMN gearing.

but this is what I think can be done with elemental spirits.

1) update their repertoire (especially for elemental wheel) - tier V magic is a must. AM2 would be a (highly unlikely) bonus.

2) increase their magic accuracy

3) increase their MAB (this should naturally already be so because they're technically BLMs)

4) implement a way to control them indirectly.
...I'm thinking something like a new Blood Pact: Elemental category would work just fine.
These BPs would determine what stance an elemental would take.

eg and make-stuff-up fun.

"Smite"
-forces an elemental to cast next spell immediately

"Elemental's Fury"
- Puts elemental in a stance where it will only cast nuking spells (or in the case of Light/Dark, any spell that does direct damage from the spell itself)

"Elemental's Intent"
- Puts elemental in a debuff mode, or in the case of Light Spirit, buff/heal mode.

"Elemental's Balance"
- restores default casting stance and grants the elemental a mild regen/refresh.

5) Give elemental spirit's an Avatar Favor.
each favor could just be elemental resistance boost, but it'd still be pretty useful

[Malamasala]

Must be a really weak leak. I mean, spirits are ok as they are, they aren't made to be super nukers if you think about it.

They aren't made to be nukers at all, is the problem. They'll melee for about 45 seconds, and if it is a weak monster, it is already dead, and if it is a HNM, it has alread AOE silenced or damaged your pet.

I don't think it is too far fetched to expect a nuking pet to cast spells when used, rather than have them melee. The only pet I get to cast spells, is Light Spirit, because I do not have to assault it. (Assault is still bugged with it resetting the timer to max)


In all honesty spirits with limited use is more like the back fence needing a coat of paint(not badly just slightly overdue)

I disagree. The spirit problem is that they are not doing what they should do. Claiming unpainted fence does not do the role of a fence, seems incorrect. If you had said it was a chain fence with gigantic holes in them, I'd agree. You probably wouldn't worry about anyone entering through the holes, but the fence wouldn't do its intended job of keeping others out.



Spirits aren't really that important to fix, but it is kind of like 2 handed update. No job NEEDED 2 handed weapons. They could all work with 1 handed dual wielding. The issue here was that SE wanted people to use more weapon types. SE does however not seem to want us to use spirits.

[Korpg]

They aren't made to be nukers at all, is the problem. They'll melee for about 45 seconds, and if it is a weak monster, it is already dead, and if it is a HNM, it has alread AOE silenced or damaged your pet. Because you would sic a spirit on a HNM, right? Avatars wouldn't do that much more damage and you can control them better, right?

[Razushu]

They aren't made to be nukers at all, is the problem. They'll melee for about 45 seconds, and if it is a weak monster, it is already dead, and if it is a HNM, it has alread AOE silenced or damaged your pet.

I don't think it is too far fetched to expect a nuking pet to cast spells when used, rather than have them melee. The only pet I get to cast spells, is Light Spirit, because I do not have to assault it. (Assault is still bugged with it resetting the timer to max)



I disagree. The spirit problem is that they are not doing what they should do. Claiming unpainted fence does not do the role of a fence, seems incorrect. If you had said it was a chain fence with gigantic holes in them, I'd agree. You probably wouldn't worry about anyone entering through the holes, but the fence wouldn't do its intended job of keeping others out.



Spirits aren't really that important to fix, but it is kind of like 2 handed update. No job NEEDED 2 handed weapons. They could all work with 1 handed dual wielding. The issue here was that SE wanted people to use more weapon types. SE does however not seem to want us to use spirits.

Honestly, I don't feel there's a "spirit problem". They really feel like they were added early on to give us more than Carbuncle. SE gave them a use after we obtain the Avatars, which is "Elemental Siphon". The only buff to spirits that I could see implemented, and not think why did they waste their time on this is, an ability that allows us to call an elemental of the matching element to support our avatar.

They follow the Avatar around for an extra -3 perp on the cost of the avatar, and provide them stat boosts(Damage +%, MAB etc.) and can occassionally cast a nuke on the avatar to heal them.

They are the unpainted fence, the slightly melted ice cream, the scratched windscreen of SMN. There isn't and should not be any situation where they come close to the power or usefullness of an Avatar. abuff to them would be pointless in this case, because you would be still spending more MP for a weaker pet that's now slightly better.

[Korpg]

Nice avatar Raz

[Razushu]

Nice avatar Raz

I know it turned even better than I expected, and I had really high expectations. King does great work.

[Malamasala]

abuff to them would be pointless in this case, because you would be still spending more MP for a weaker pet that's now slightly better.

Spirits are actually cheaper than avatars in the long run. The slightly higher perp do usually not reach up to the cost of pacts. So you'd be spending less MP, for less damage, if they were fixed. Now it is less MP for no damage, which seems a bit extreme.

[Razushu]

Spirits are actually cheaper than avatars in the long run. The slightly higher perp do usually not reach up to the cost of pacts. So you'd be spending less MP, for less damage, if they were fixed. Now it is less MP for no damage, which seems a bit extreme.

They still deal damage(it's not great), but they do. In all honesty I can't understand why you want a buff to them, they're ugly, cost an extra 5MP per tick, and we have perfectly good avatars to rely on. SE is never going to buff them to near the level of an avatars power and utility, so any buff to them would still leave them being used a fraction of the time. Barring some kind of hipster SMN community starting up, wearing stuff like the gambison and wool hat saying things like "I preferred SMN when Blood pacts weren't divided" and using them just because no one else does.

[Malamasala]

SE is never going to buff them to near the level of an avatars power and utility, so any buff to them would still leave them being used a fraction of the time.

Avatars and Spirits are different enough that you could have similar potency and not end up using only one type. You are kind of arguing that we can't have blunt damage rival slashing damage, because then why would anyone use slashing?

Avatars are great for buffs, debuffs, and physical damage as well as MBs for additional damage. Leaving spirits as the generic nuking tool when you just want to deal elemental damage for a low MP cost seems fine with me. If they got -ga spells as well, they'd be our tool for battling multiple enemies as well, adding yet another option for SMNs.

I think that apart from maybe enspells or DA, avatars do not really need any more damage updates. They are so trivial to finish that SE shouldn't need to spend more than a weekend getting that done. Spirits on the other hand is something they could invest all that spare time they have on. (Instead of playing mahjong)

[Razushu]

Avatars and Spirits are different enough that you could have similar potency and not end up using only one type. You are kind of arguing that we can't have blunt damage rival slashing damage, because then why would anyone use slashing?

Avatars are great for buffs, debuffs, and physical damage as well as MBs for additional damage. Leaving spirits as the generic nuking tool when you just want to deal elemental damage for a low MP cost seems fine with me. If they got -ga spells as well, they'd be our tool for battling multiple enemies as well, adding yet another option for SMNs.

I think that apart from maybe enspells or DA, avatars do not really need any more damage updates. They are so trivial to finish that SE shouldn't need to spend more than a weekend getting that done. Spirits on the other hand is something they could invest all that spare time they have on. (Instead of playing mahjong)

No I'm arguing that we have great pets, that we can use all the time(that could still do with some love), and these pets should be focused on over the spirits. What on earth would be the point of giving them a boost to similar potency to that of the avatars? SE could spend months doing that, and SMN would still be in the exact same position it was when they started just with more pets.

Avatar's could use a big update on their DPS(naked BLM melee isn't cutting it). Buffing the spirits would be like giving PUP throwing:D, pretty much useless.

As it stands we have pets for:

Physical Damage(Avatars)

Magical Damage(Avatars)

Buffs/Debuffs(Avatars)

MP management(Spirits)

Pet usage distribution is fine the way it is we have 9 awesome looking, useful pets to pick from as is. SE would never buff spirits to the same or near level of Avatars(because they're Gods), so spending any time buffing them would be a waste.

[Sasaraixx]

I agree with Razushu in that what he says make sense. Other than responding to aggro and using siphon, there are no situations where you would use a spirit over an avatar. Well, none that I can think of at least. (Yes, you can use your spirit to proc yellow in Abyssea, but that is really situational and unless you are soloing, I'd hope you'd have another mage there for yellow procs.)

Nonetheless, there is still a part of me that wants them to get a buff lol. It is irrational and I have no justification for it :D Our avatars are our bread and butter and they still need some work. I would not want SE to take time away from working on them to work on a way to make spirits useful. That would take a serious amount of time in my opinion.

It would be an entirely hollow buff, but I would like all spirits to get Elemental Celerity traits, MAB bonus traits and serious MACC buffs. That wouldn't take long to implement at all. This wouldn't have us pick them over avatars and it would fix their design problem, but for some reason it still kind of makes me happy. I know it's ridiculous :)

[Sasaraixx]

And as for this thread, I am not a fan of any of the OP's suggestions for avatars (No disrespect meant.) I just don't see the benefit in giving the avatars ward pacts for spells that other jobs can use more efficiently than us. And giving avatars the one of the few unique spells that SCH has would be a slap in the face, and wholly unnecessary in my mind. But more importantly, I don't see how any of those changes would help fix the job.

Instead, I would simply suggest the follow:

Enhancing Buff
1) Make avatar's favor a trait, and not a job ability. (No one uses it aside from the -perp, and that isn't necessary anymore because of gear.) Remove the negative effect to the avatar and let the avatars have the effect as well. (It would make them more unique as well.) In the event that a player may not want to favor, it can be removed manually. The potency of some wards may need to be adjusted.
2) Tweak the duration and potency of some ward pacts.
3) Split enhancing and healing ward pacts into a separate category.

Damage Buff
1) Give avatars innate double attack (and Fenrir triple attack)
2) Raise avatar melee damage
3) Lower -BP timer cap (coming in the future it seems)
4) Reduce melee delay or really raise #2
5) Give avatars a high degree of Subtle Blow

Tanking Buff
1) Give SMNs a JA that allows avatars to take damage for the SMN
2) Allow avatars to occassionally absorb damage of their own element
(3) Wholly unnecessary but storywise, it would be nice if avatars got a unique intimidation effect against humanoids or other gods perhaps. :D

Healing Buff
1) Increase potency of all healing blood pacts

(Astral Flow)
Aside from Odin and Alexander, outside of Abyssea the 2hr has becaome lackluster because our 70 and 75 pacts outdamage them. Lower levels it was great for certain NM/BC fights but this is a new game. Perfect Defense is a 2hour worthy ability. Is Earthen Fury? I'm not so sure anymore. This is definitely not a pressing issue but it might be worth addressing once we hit lv99 and see where we stand. A change to a familiar type 2 hour, while retaining the exclusive BP and 0 perp cost might be an idea. Again, this is just a personal peeve of mine and not at all a necessity.

[Covenant]

Aside from all avatars 2 hours being AOE damage(the normal avatars) they should be more potent, but not much more.

Why fix the spirits, if no one uses them? This should be read differently. They should be updated cause no one uses them.

I'm strictly speaking in earlier level now when, SE gave Summoners abilities before other jobs. The avatars were extremely underutilized due to limit Bloodpacts only(PRE-wards). It was my personally firm belief that spirtis and avatars where meant to be utilized both. Much like a blue mages physical/elemental split of spells, avatars were "supposed" to be physical, whole elementals were elemental.

I only offered the spirit "tank" cause regular random elemental are physically resistant. If old school summoning was then a 1-2step of bloodback and dismissal. Then what would a summoner do per 1 min timer? The answer was quick summon the spirit to get off a debuff and rare nuke. This set up the whole melee(avatar)/nuke(spirit) idea in my mind.

Current day Vanadiel. Most Avatars have access to BOTH physical strikes(+1k) and nukes(+1k) while spirits are locked at lvl 75 casting. Meaning that in a 5 min period an avatar could conceivable do +6k while spirtis will do +300 melee damage and if your lucky a lot of enfeebs and maybe 1 nuke. And if your really really lucky an AM type. Is it any wonder why no one use spirits?
I support either buffing the melee/tanking capabilities of spirits and/or increasing "good" spell use. If SE would boost nothing more than a spirits defense for tanking to really strong level past any avatars abilities to do so, can you doubly most Summoners would switch to spirit tanking?...Even if everything else, including casting was kept the same?

Finally about Summoners stealing other jobs abilities. This concept is so contrary to Vanadiel in today's game. Most jobs share at least 1 ability with other, even discounting sub jobs. To say that the "Gods" of elemental cannot tap any and all abilities of their elemental is ridiculous to say the least. Storms, song, nukes, job abilities all have a basis in the specific elements. It's like saying, the atom should be removed from the element.
As with anything summoner, most abilities with regular duration are limited(I'm not talking past cap). To say, scholar "storms" are intrinsic to their game style is a outright lie. Most scholars I've played with hardly cast those spells, rather going for the outright damage/nuke output rather than party buffs.

Storms, enspell 1 and 2, bar spells, and a bards resistance up and down songs are used so rarely in "normal" game play. Letting a summoner have access to specific abilities at specific lvls(remember lvl 1 through 99), will hardly eliminate the need for jobs that "can do it better".

[Sasaraixx]

I'm ignoring the portion regarding spirits as I've already explained why I don't think the dev team should spend time working on them at the moment. Our avatars should be addressed first.



To say, scholar "storms" are intrinsic to their game style is a outright lie. Most scholars I've played with hardly cast those spells, rather going for the outright damage/nuke output rather than party buffs.

Please show me where in my post I said that storm spells are intrinsic to their game style. Don't change my words to try to make a better argument for yourself. I mentioned that those spells are one of the only unique spells the job has, which is true. (I was actually talking about helix spells, as most of the storm spells are already available via /SCH). And as an aside, if any SCH is nuking you can be very sure that they WILL be using storm spells. And even if what you said is true, which it isn't, why would you want spells that no one uses? It sounds more like you want them simply because we don't have them and our avatars should be masters of their elements. I don't see thought on how they would work towards improving the job. Adding them to our blood pact list would do nothing to help the current state of SMN and that is what I am concerned with.


Storms, enspell 1 and 2, bar spells, and a bards resistance up and down songs are used so rarely in "normal" game play. Letting a summoner have access to specific abilities at specific lvls(remember lvl 1 through 99), will hardly eliminate the need for jobs that "can do it better".

Same here. Why are you pushing for spells rarely used in normal game play that can already be cast quicker, more often, party wide and likely for higher potency by other jobs? And again you are stating something that I clearly did not say. No where in my post did I state that adding these abilities would "eliminate the need for jobs that can do it better." If you are going to respond, please respond to points that I actually made or there really isn't any point having a discussion.

The addition of these abilities would add no *valuable* utility to the job. We already have forms of enspell 1 and 2 spells for specific elements and no one uses them. Will adding them for all elements change that? I highly doubt it. Bar spells and carols are great, but given that future adjustments are being planned for lv99 content, when will you as a SMN find yourself in a situation where bar spells are necessary and you are not in a party with a WHM, RDM, SCH or BRD? You could make this ward stack with bar spells or carols to increase overall resistance and that could have some usage, but it does nothing to help the current state of the job. It's just a superficial addition where most of us want fundamental changes.

[Razushu]

Aside from all avatars 2 hours being AOE damage(the normal avatars) they should be more potent, but not much more.

Why fix the spirits, if no one uses them? This should be read differently. They should be updated cause no one uses them.

I'm strictly speaking in earlier level now when, SE gave Summoners abilities before other jobs. The avatars were extremely underutilized due to limit Bloodpacts only(PRE-wards). It was my personally firm belief that spirtis and avatars where meant to be utilized both. Much like a blue mages physical/elemental split of spells, avatars were "supposed" to be physical, whole elementals were elemental.

I only offered the spirit "tank" cause regular random elemental are physically resistant. If old school summoning was then a 1-2step of bloodback and dismissal. Then what would a summoner do per 1 min timer? The answer was quick summon the spirit to get off a debuff and rare nuke. This set up the whole melee(avatar)/nuke(spirit) idea in my mind.

Current day Vanadiel. Most Avatars have access to BOTH physical strikes(+1k) and nukes(+1k) while spirits are locked at lvl 75 casting. Meaning that in a 5 min period an avatar could conceivable do +6k while spirtis will do +300 melee damage and if your lucky a lot of enfeebs and maybe 1 nuke. And if your really really lucky an AM type. Is it any wonder why no one use spirits?
I support either buffing the melee/tanking capabilities of spirits and/or increasing "good" spell use. If SE would boost nothing more than a spirits defense for tanking to really strong level past any avatars abilities to do so, can you doubly most Summoners would switch to spirit tanking?...Even if everything else, including casting was kept the same?

Finally about Summoners stealing other jobs abilities. This concept is so contrary to Vanadiel in today's game. Most jobs share at least 1 ability with other, even discounting sub jobs. To say that the "Gods" of elemental cannot tap any and all abilities of their elemental is ridiculous to say the least. Storms, song, nukes, job abilities all have a basis in the specific elements. It's like saying, the atom should be removed from the element.
As with anything summoner, most abilities with regular duration are limited(I'm not talking past cap). To say, scholar "storms" are intrinsic to their game style is a outright lie. Most scholars I've played with hardly cast those spells, rather going for the outright damage/nuke output rather than party buffs.

Storms, enspell 1 and 2, bar spells, and a bards resistance up and down songs are used so rarely in "normal" game play. Letting a summoner have access to specific abilities at specific lvls(remember lvl 1 through 99), will hardly eliminate the need for jobs that "can do it better".

The more accurate way to read it would be, why buff pets no one uses, when we already have better pets that could do with a buff. Spirits weak as they are were most likely meant for use below level 20. Avatars always had the Tier IIs and IVs which covered magic damage too. Avatars were meant to do what we needed and spirits were meant to hold us over until we got them.

To be honest spirits are fine they see much more use than Leviathan. Avatars need some tweaking, because atm there imbablanced with each other, want physical damage? use Garuda(sometimes Ramuh). Want buffs? use Fenrir and Garuda(generally). Want magical damage? Use Shiva. That leaves us with a couple of our avatars seeing general - situatuional uses, and the rest gathering dust. Avatars should be the priority by far, they are by far the most useful by design(arguably).

Spirits get the same -50% PDT that avatars get already. Wouldn't it be better(more useful), if instead of buffing spirits in a tanking capacity, they added a boost to avatar tanking instead? Spirits never saw much use from level 1 upwards, until Elemental Siphon(which is a fine use and more than justifies their existence enough). Any buff to spirits would only be a side grade. Even if they buffed spirits to be tanked, Avatars do much more damage anyway and are disposable. It would change very little(possibly in kites where you don't have room to kite??), and again avatars need a boost too anyway.


If the only reason people want them buffed is because they exist(which is silly, we don't need them we already have much better pets), then I 'd suggest we get rid of them all together and change Elemental Siphon to Astral Siphon.

Every buff we have lasts about 3 minutes now, they only really need a potency buff. Although a really nice change to them would be, if they changed the category from magic to avatar(and maybe change it so that people can have a max. of 4 applied to them at once). This way they would stack with buffs from magical sources.

[Malamasala]

The more accurate way to read it would be, why buff pets no one uses, when we already have better pets that could do with a buff.

But the opposite also applies. Why buff pets we use, since we apparently use them because they are good enough. If they weren't good enough to be used, then we wouldn't use them, see spirits. Which in the end gives us the following suggestions for SE:

1) Do not update spirits. They are useless.
2) Do not update avatars. They are already useful.

That is if you give a consistent argument, instead of a biased one regarding which pet type you like the most.


If the only reason people want them buffed is because they exist(which is silly, we don't need them we already have much better pets), then I 'd suggest we get rid of them all together and change Elemental Siphon to Astral Siphon.

I agree with you that there are only two options for SE. Fix spirits, or remove spirits. Nothing is worse than keeping defunct code for years just to annoy the player base. I would gladly accept the removal of spirits, since it at least shows SE cares about cleaning the job up.

[Razushu]

But the opposite also applies. Why buff pets we use, since we apparently use them because they are good enough. If they weren't good enough to be used, then we wouldn't use them, see spirits. Which in the end gives us the following suggestions for SE:

1) Do not update spirits. They are useless.
2) Do not update avatars. They are already useful.

That is if you give a consistent argument, instead of a biased one regarding which pet type you like the most.



I agree with you that there are only two options for SE. Fix spirits, or remove spirits. Nothing is worse than keeping defunct code for years just to annoy the player base. I would gladly accept the removal of spirits, since it at least shows SE cares about cleaning the job up.

Spirits are fine though, they have a use. I never said our avatars are fine, they can still use a buff. My point is we have 2 sets of pets avatars and spirits, one set for high level general use, and the other for low level(20-) until we get the avatars and for Elemental Siphon.

One set are far superior to the others but could still use some attention(ex. buff potency and DPS boost). The other since combat roles are filled by the superior set was given an MP management ability to give them use. Honestly spirits are fine they see use once every five minutes.

I said SE should get rid of them, because it would stop people asking for buffs to them. You don't see DRGs complaining about they're less used swords or clubs. What would be the point in removing spirits other than people would stop complaining about them, they find niche uses in game. Siphon and the occasional emergency pet more than make they're existence worth it.

I'm not biased on which group of pets I prefer, Avatars are just more useful. We have 9(11 soon) avatars that fulfill any need that pops up in a fight, including nuking. What would be the point of buffing the spirits to fill a role already filled, especially when the avatars need a boost anyway. The only argument for spirit buffing seems to be, I have them so I wanna use them. It's pointless, they could "fix" spirits, but where would that leave us? In the exact same place, except we now have more pets to do the same thing our magic pacts do.

[Sasaraixx]

Razushu again makes a very good point. Every job has spells, WS, abilities that they eventually grow out of. Spirits played a role for us in the early levels and have been completely eclipsed by avatars. There isn't necessarily anything wrong with it. I just have an irrational desire to see my ice spirit cast big nukes. There really is no need for it and as we both have said, our avatars need real work.

I use my spirits for elemental siphon, to get a monster off me quickly and to play around with proc'ing grellow occasionally in Abyssea. That's far more attention than Ifrit or Diabolos have gotten from me in the past year.

[Covenant]

I can tell you exactly why people HATE spirits...it's simple really, No "control", "normally" more mp expensive than avatars(yes Bloodpacts cost mp), and spell casting cycles and finally spirits being "locked" intolvl 75 when even our NPC fellow have broken "cap".

I originally offered an update from lvl 1-99 for avatars as well as spirits. This is quite hard for max level summoner to see being blinded by their powers and the many choices they have NOW. What i didn't want to suggest as with nearly every single thread is boosting melee damage.

Every job thread wants more melee and more haste. Period. Any suggestion having to do with balance and party play is met with negative remarks. Yes, I'll admit that as we "progress" it's natural for certain abilties to be forgotten. I'd just like to remind summoner that while avatars only had 2 tiers of nukes(II and IV) PRe-75, a spirit did have access to all lvl appropriate spells of their element.
Unfortuntely, many Summoners still have that idea of the "solo" summoner lvln. Were we weren't picked for parties and usually our avatars did 99%of the job.
I'm in agreement, to a degree....let SE keep pushing Bloodpacts and bloodwards, yet that can make a minimum change to spirits to allow more utilization(namely def and decrease delay. Or, increased nuking).


Plus, I just really, really want those 7? extra NM elementals(chaos, magic sludge, aby-elementals and ?).

[Covenant]

By the way, I posted on wkik an idea that much like campaign general NPC. That players could concievably given multiple elementals(max 3). All associate costs and abilties remain the same. Each additional elemental could be summoned based on a 99/3 level formula.

For example, lvl 1-33 (1) spirit, 33-66. (2) spirits, and finally lvl 66-99 (3) spirits. Perhaps to balance, weaken them slightly say -25%. That way a little fairer. Of course any % are debatable.

I'm also all for a strict (1)avatar/(1)spirit summoning cycle at the increase mp cost, of course. That is having one of each "out" at a given time.

[Korpg]

Plus, I just really, really want those 7? extra NM elementals(chaos, magic sludge, aby-elementals and ?).

yeah....Chaos Elemental and Magic Sludge are just Dark Elementals....and we already have those.

And unless the 4 dual elemental spirits actually give out a lot more MP for Siphon, I don't see those as being worth it (except for the extremely RARE times where it is one type of weather on another type of day (dark weather on earthday, fire weather on lightday, and so on).

[Covenant]

@KORPG, I didnt even think of the day/weather combo nice catch.

I mention chaos and sludge because I think they had different behavior than regular elemental. Namely, one has a low delay striking more often and the other casted more spells faster and slow melee. Or something like that. I'd have to reread all the NM descriptions.

Having dual nature NM elementals just seem cools with versatility. I'll admit I have next to zero experience actually fighting these types so I'm not used to their behaviors at all. In general do they seem to cast more Nukes? Or is it the same behaviors as other regular spirits. I only mention this cause seems like a mob elemental always leads an attack with an AM when they're aggrod?

[Sasaraixx]

Every job thread wants more melee and more haste. Period. Any suggestion having to do with balance and party play is met with negative remarks.

Most people do want more melee damage and haste. That's because it is needed at the moment. Part of the reason we need the increase is for balance. (Our DOT is low.) I am all for buffs to other areas and every thread I have ever made suggestions in has included buffs to our enhancing side. I just personally didn't believe that your suggestions would adequately address the issue and/or make us more desired for party play. That is just my opinion and we can of course agree to disagree. I would like to see tweaks to avatar's favor, buffs to our ward pacts and having a 3rd blood pact category to allow more usage of enfeebles and enhancing abilities. (I also wouldn't mind Shiva and Levi getting nice aoe magical and physical rage pacts either, hehe) Please don't misunderstand. I am all for having us be a well rounded, versatile job.

And the Abyssea elementals do look pretty awesome. I wouldn't turn my nose up at them :D They're great to look at at least, hehe.

[Covenant]

Not to keep beating the "spirit" seashores, but was going over the NM elementals...their descriptions and thought of a couple ideas.

The VNM tier 1 elementals featured an interesting concept. Rather than being strictly "elemental" they all see to have a tier or two in "fast cast" trait and feature a spell list based on their jobs. For example,

[u]www.wiki.ffxicyclodeia.org/wiku/Beorht.com[u/]
Beorht job is WHM/RDM and is able to cast haste, blink, dia II, holy, banishaga III, stoneskin, regen, and diaga II?

All the other job/sub job VNM elementals are broken down this way having access to any job spells of appropriate levels despite being specific elemental types.

The NM Elemental "Chaos Elemental" has a high fast cast rate, despite having a "slow" cast cycle.

The NM Elemental "Magic Sludge" is resistant to both magical and physical damage. Can instant cast both sleepga and sleepaga II. Has high speed and "hits slightly harder than normal"

The NM Elemental "Polevik" has a "potent fast cast" also.

Then there are the campaign NM elemental types...

The Shadowfang Void's all have access to BIO III, dispelaga, dreadspikes, sleepaga II.
The Vee Qiqa's Elemental (5) all types, have access to all spells(75) even merited ones.
The Vee seju's Elementals (2) have fast cast, high double/triple attack rates.
The Yuu Mjuu's Elementals (3) have Banishaga III and Fire IV.

So SE has already established(coded) certain elementals with altered behaviors and access to "non-player" spell list.
That being said, I can imagine leaving the regular spirits "alone" and creating a second tier of Spirits either based off of the VNM and NM behavior...
...OR, creating a new series of "pacts" that mimic the campaign general NM ELementals. Namely, multiple pets with increase strength(though not on the same exact level)...
...OR, creating a new series of Tier 2 spirits as I've already stated. Increased melee speed(think double/triple attack)/damage down down (think Paladin's Sentinel) and/or increased spell range(lvl 75-99)...
...OR, allowing the Abyssean Hybrid-Elementals to drop "pacts". Or create another BCNM in Abyssean-Paradox filled with Hybrud-elemental fights that drop it.


No matter which approach if any, imagine new spirits have access to such things as ~aga IV's, or AM~aga, or AM III. Would Summoners then think these spirits completely useless?

[Malamasala]

I'm not biased on which group of pets I prefer, Avatars are just more useful. We have 9(11 soon) avatars that fulfill any need that pops up in a fight, including nuking. What would be the point of buffing the spirits to fill a role already filled, especially when the avatars need a boost anyway. The only argument for spirit buffing seems to be, I have them so I wanna use them. It's pointless, they could "fix" spirits, but where would that leave us? In the exact same place, except we now have more pets to do the same thing our magic pacts do.

You are as biased as one can be. Let me explain why.

For a SMN/WHM healer and support role, spirits are the best. Instead of soaking your MP into pacts, you'll just send a small amount of perpetuation to the spirits while they either help you cure or deal some additional damage. Meanwhile you have more MP to spend on healing and -na-ing the alliance.

So any Summoner who plays a support healing role, should be thrilled at spirit updates. Unless they are biased at their usual playstyle and haven't put any testing into spirits over the years.

I've tested this style on ix.drk fights, and apart from spirits being idiots constantly casting DoT spells, it worked better than any other thing a SMN could do in the fight. Which of course just translates to "It was better to use 75 pacts since spirits are idiots", if you want to be biased on what works and what doesn't.

In short, spirits WOULD be more useful than avatars for certain support roles, and it is those exact roles you enjoy to play. Even so you diss spirit fixes, even though it is the best thing that could happen to you, out of ignorance.

[Razushu]

You are as biased as one can be. Let me explain why.

For a SMN/WHM healer and support role, spirits are the best. Instead of soaking your MP into pacts, you'll just send a small amount of perpetuation to the spirits while they either help you cure or deal some additional damage. Meanwhile you have more MP to spend on healing and -na-ing the alliance.

So any Summoner who plays a support healing role, should be thrilled at spirit updates. Unless they are biased at their usual playstyle and haven't put any testing into spirits over the years.

I've tested this style on ix.drk fights, and apart from spirits being idiots constantly casting DoT spells, it worked better than any other thing a SMN could do in the fight. Which of course just translates to "It was better to use 75 pacts since spirits are idiots", if you want to be biased on what works and what doesn't.

In short, spirits WOULD be more useful than avatars for certain support roles, and it is those exact roles you enjoy to play. Even so you diss spirit fixes, even though it is the best thing that could happen to you, out of ignorance.

For SMN/WHM in a Healer /support capacity Carbuncle is the best. Unless you think that a pet costing 1/2 of what the light spirit does that provides ~22HP per tick Regen and a reliable ~400Hp AoE curaga is somehow inferior. Even spamming Healing Ruby II Carby is cheaper than the light spirit.

Carby will deal more Damage and heal more HP over time than a Light spirit all the while costing just as little, and being generally more reliable than a spirit, the bolded proves this. Of course it's better to use an avatar in any situation over spirits, that's how the job was designed. I've used spirits before on things and, it always became quickly apparent Avatars>Spirits.

My point is there's no need for "Spirit fixes", we already have stornger, more reliable, more versatile pets that could still use a boost. You're the biased one here, You say a small amount of perpetuation (19MP per minute is not insignifigant), sure they cost slightly less than the celestials when you factor in BPs, but they can't come close to them in any other regard.

For whatever reason you have decided to campaign on behalf of spirits, but honestly what would it get us if they were "fixed". SE could buff them to a point where they're closer to the avatars for nuking and would see more use, but in all seriousness it would leave us exxactly where we are now(obviously aside from people who like to play with spirits, your toys would be a little better), the job would remain as it was in both power and player perspective.

Spirits would never be more useful than Carbuncle for support role, because AoE regen and curaga(on command) are far better than maybe a Cure V or a Curaga IV, when either of these could easily be a Flash. I don't diss Spirit fixes out of ignorance, I diss them because a fix to them would only ever be a side grade, I want SE to spend time fixing things that both need to be fixed and will make the job more useful and better.

Making Spirits better buffers does nothing, because Avatars are already better buffers.

Making Spirits better nukers does nothing, because Avatars are already better nukers.

Making Spirits better Healers does nothing, because Avatars are already better Healers.

Making Spirits better DD/tanks does nothing, because Avatars are already better DD/tanks.

It makes far more sense to buff the more powerful pet, since the job needs a power boost anyway, thats's the only reason I'm against Spirits getting an update.

[Covenant]

@ razusho I'm sure your the "bee's-knees" as a summoner, your various post from technical standing "seems" well informed, but your stance on spirits is total crap. Worst off, it shows how unimaginative your thinking is. You based all you reasoning on the "old" spirit stance...that they're useless anything other than an mp boost and maybe a quick save.

First off, without any special NM elemental, let just say SE would fix the spirits spell list to include lvls 75~99 elemental spells. Spirits would now have access to just about everything a black Mage and scholar has at appropriate levels...to include AM, AM II, helix spells, storm spells, tier V's, and ~JA spells(yes some of these are extreme wishful thinking). Your seriously saying that a merited bloodpact spell would out damage a -JA, AM II, or tier V spell?

Second, this was true in the past and still true now...spirits being NPC(non player control) characters DON'T require resting to regain MP. An extreme fictional behavior nonstop AM Nuking, spirit would still not require resting. Adding several fast cast tiers to all spirits at whatever level, would make spirits that much impressive than an avatars magical nukes.

Thirdly, on melee/def capabilities and why to buff these. If SE were to keep the spirits casting/behavior the same, I could see a faster/melee type elemental as a major improvement. Saying that avatars are better at tanking is at best 50% of the truth. Both avatar and Spirits have "stout servant" job trait. What makes avatar good at tanking is usually a higher such as evasion(Garuda), def(Titan), or other blood pact ability(carby/regen,cure, diabolos/phalanx, magic shroud). However, a spirit has a natural resistance to physical damage which isn't as pronounced as it should be. A lvl 75 spirit does not have the same defensive capability as a lvl 75 elemental mob.

And lastly, and I think even most importantly spirits have uniformity of behavior. The cycles which player hate because it removes direct control is also what makes spirits superior than avatar. Avatar have multiple bloodpact/wards to manage and remember. Adding additional effects to avatar would only continue to add to the confusion. Not to mention that the multitude of Bloodpacts and wards all share the same timers only lessen their effectiveness. No matter what spirit types they all are equal in the sense of the behaviors.

As a thought experiment only, summoner that could captialize on the ninja "elemental wheel" strategy with AM use, could push nuking power that much more higher.

What this wall of text adds up to, as far as the future of spirit utilization is unlimited potential in my book. The only thing adding a new bloodpact to an avatar is the cessation of "old Bloodpacts". Why use predator claw I, when predator claw II is better? Why use single strike bloodpact when mutlistrikes are more effect.
Adding to avatars, while needed at the lower levels, are NOT required at the higher lvls. Other than adding more AoE moves at higher lvls, I don't see any improvements needed. Spirits automatically eliminate lower tier nukes in favor for maxed tier spell use. I'm also sure that summoner/BLM could eliminate a lot of the debuffs, if they casted on mobs first eliminating the need for spirits to do it.

[Malamasala]

Spirits would never be more useful than Carbuncle for support role, because AoE regen and curaga(on command) are far better than maybe a Cure V or a Curaga IV, when either of these could easily be a Flash. I don't diss Spirit fixes out of ignorance, I diss them because a fix to them would only ever be a side grade, I want SE to spend time fixing things that both need to be fixed and will make the job more useful and better.

As covenant says, you diss spirits out of "this is how bad they are" rather than thinking about "this is how good they could be".

Let me list a few utilities of spirits "who are fixed"

- Spirit fast nukes: DoT pet. If it casts nukes every 20 seconds, even weak, it will give a moderate constant damage feed.

- Spirit fast nukes: Good kite + damage pet. Less hate for Summoner who do not need to trigger pacts.

- Spirit fast nukes: You can stay at safer range 20+, because you do not need to be in BP-range.

- Spirit smart healing: A good emergency /WHM addition if you were subbing something else (like perhaps SCH and missing cure IV). Even with /WHM it helps you AOE cure alliance members which your avatars or sub can't.

- Spirit smart healing: Enables you to play the PUP way of soloing if you want to. Meleeing with a pet that cures you. Good for example skill up staff.

And the above are just examples. You could do much more. I think it is a huge difference to your "I want harder hitting avatar melee" wishlist, which doesn't allow us to do anything different, just the same things better.

[Razushu]

@ Razushu I'm sure your the "bee's-knees" as a summoner, your various post from technical standing "seems" well informed, but your stance on spirits is total crap. Worst off, it shows how unimaginative your thinking is. You based all you reasoning on the "old" spirit stance...that they're useless anything other than an mp boost and maybe a quick save.

Why thank you:D.

My stance on spirits is they are inferior to Avatars(Which is true), and if SE is coming at us with a buff to pets it would better serve us if it was to our Avatars(which is also true). I'm very imaginative actually, I just choose not to waste it on spirits, and tend to think of things to improve the main focus of the job.


First off, without any special NM elemental, let just say SE would fix the spirits spell list to include lvls 75~99 elemental spells. Spirits would now have access to just about everything a black Mage and scholar has at appropriate levels...to include AM, AM II, helix spells, storm spells, tier V's, and ~JA spells(yes some of these are extreme wishful thinking). Your seriously saying that a merited bloodpact spell would out damage a -JA, AM II, or tier V spell?

The spell list hasn't been "fixed", but then neither have our avatars recieved new rages yet. Personally I'm asking for new Rages. Avatars did better damage at 75, so they're gonna be better at 99. They already get AM btw, and yes I'm seriously saying a merited BP will out damage any spell from the inferior pet.



Second, this was true in the past and still true now...spirits being NPC(non player control) characters DON'T require resting to regain MP. An extreme fictional behavior nonstop AM Nuking, spirit would still not require resting. Adding several fast cast tiers to all spirits at whatever level, would make spirits that much impressive than an avatars magical nukes.

Adding fast cast and unlimited MP to spirits would be amazing.... assuming I want Burn spam at some point. Why are you trying to think of ways to buff spirits to rival Avatars? Avatars are better than spirits but still need work, why not ask for the work to be finished on Avatars first?



Thirdly, on melee/def capabilities and why to buff these. If SE were to keep the spirits casting/behavior the same, I could see a faster/melee type elemental as a major improvement. Saying that avatars are better at tanking is at best 50% of the truth. Both avatar and Spirits have "stout servant" job trait. What makes avatar good at tanking is usually a higher such as evasion(Garuda), def(Titan), or other blood pact ability(carby/regen,cure, diabolos/phalanx, magic shroud). However, a spirit has a natural resistance to physical damage which isn't as pronounced as it should be. A lvl 75 spirit does not have the same defensive capability as a lvl 75 elemental mob.

Saying Avatars are better at tanking is 100% the truth sure they get the same traits, but Avatars are just sturdier thatn spirits. No player commanded monster has near the power of it's wild counter part, ask a BST.




And lastly, and I think even most importantly spirits have uniformity of behavior. The cycles which player hate because it removes direct control is also what makes spirits superior than avatar. Avatar have multiple bloodpact/wards to manage and remember. Adding additional effects to avatar would only continue to add to the confusion. Not to mention that the multitude of Bloodpacts and wards all share the same timers only lessen their effectiveness. No matter what spirit types they all are equal in the sense of the behaviors.

As a thought experiment only, summoner that could captialize on the ninja "elemental wheel" strategy with AM use, could push nuking power that much more higher.

Uniformity is great, except that behaviour is cr*p. Direct control is fair superior to AI, A nuke on command is FAR better than maybe a nuke(but possibly another debuff). Avatars versatility is what makes them superior, and the selection of wards and rages is what makes them versatile. It's very easy to remember all the Pacts an Avatar has, and what situation to use them in. Spirits casting all share the same timer too, except you might get what you want or not. Couldn't a Summoner use the elemental wheel with merit pacts too?


What this wall of text adds up to, as far as the future of spirit utilization is unlimited potential in my book. The only thing adding a new bloodpact to an avatar is the cessation of "old Bloodpacts". Why use predator claw I, when predator claw II is better? Why use single strike bloodpact when mutlistrikes are more effect.
Adding to avatars, while needed at the lower levels, are NOT required at the higher lvls. Other than adding more AoE moves at higher lvls, I don't see any improvements needed. Spirits automatically eliminate lower tier nukes in favor for maxed tier spell use. I'm also sure that summoner/BLM could eliminate a lot of the debuffs, if they casted on mobs first eliminating the need for spirits to do it.

As far as the future of Avatar utilization goes it's actually unlimited. Of course adding new Blood Pacts, will replace old ones, that's how the game work. Unlock Heavenly Strike? so long Blizzard IV. The fact we're using DD tools from ~20 levels ago is enough to warrant a buff( the upcoming ability may negate this), that and the fact avatars have the same damage as naked BLM melee is a huge problem(and it completely overshadows spirit "problems" as a job failing). Why would you go /BLM just to boost damage from you spirits? they party loses your support abilities, you lose survivability, and for what to push spirit damage closer to Avatar damage?

[Razushu]

As covenant says, you diss spirits out of "this is how bad they are" rather than thinking about "this is how good they could be".

Let me list a few utilities of spirits "who are fixed"

- Spirit fast nukes: DoT pet. If it casts nukes every 20 seconds, even weak, it will give a moderate constant damage feed.

- Spirit fast nukes: Good kite + damage pet. Less hate for Summoner who do not need to trigger pacts.

- Spirit fast nukes: You can stay at safer range 20+, because you do not need to be in BP-range.

- Spirit smart healing: A good emergency /WHM addition if you were subbing something else (like perhaps SCH and missing cure IV). Even with /WHM it helps you AOE cure alliance members which your avatars or sub can't.

- Spirit smart healing: Enables you to play the PUP way of soloing if you want to. Meleeing with a pet that cures you. Good for example skill up staff.

And the above are just examples. You could do much more. I think it is a huge difference to your "I want harder hitting avatar melee" wishlist, which doesn't allow us to do anything different, just the same things better.

I diss them in the same way a SAM would diss his sword skill.

All those "fixed" spirits roles are already filled by Avatars.


- Spirit fast nukes: DoT pet. If it casts nukes every 20 seconds, even weak, it will give a moderate constant damage feed.

Avatars do this in bigger slower chunks(soon to be less slow).


- Spirit fast nukes: Good kite + damage pet. Less hate for Summoner who do not need to trigger pacts.

I've yet to pull enough hate triggering BPs for an avatar to not pull hate on it's inital strike.


- Spirit smart healing: A good emergency /WHM addition if you were subbing something else (like perhaps SCH and missing cure IV). Even with /WHM it helps you AOE cure alliance members which your avatars or sub can't.

Carbuncle provides ~22HP per tick, ~400HP(before TP) AoE cure, and even a Protect/shell that stacks with Protect/Shell.
That is acutally the one use for a spirit in a fight, but why is a SMN the only healer in yopur alliance, a niche use for a situation that never arises is useless.


- Spirit smart healing: Enables you to play the PUP way of soloing if you want to. Meleeing with a pet that cures you. Good for example skill up staff.

Carbuncle, Leviathan and Garuda already do this.


My desire for stronger Avatar melee, does indeed only let us do the same things but better. However your spirits wishlist tries to fill needs already filled. The only situation where spirits would allow us to do more than an avatar could is if you were afk eating dinner during a fight.

[Covenant]

I'm officially gonna get off of the spirit fixes from this point on. I've said what I have to say about them. Also, as the OP states, I look forward to any change given to avatars also.

I forget where I stated it but at lvl 99, I'd like to see ALL avatars receive the "third" of elemental nukes(I'm not counting merited BP). Perhaps a ancient magic~aga or tier VI spell?

As far a "potentially" useful bloodwards perhaps a ward similar to a warmocampra's "Heat Barrier". Except being avatar, each elemental barrier would be represented(fire,earth,water, wind, water, light, dark, lightening). The ward would provided 2 buff simultaneously as barrier does namely Enspell and spike...perhaps make them a bit stronger into the tier 2 range. Of course , they'd be AoE.

I could even envision a avatar/summoner ONLY buff that pushes the Enspell and spikes to "tier 3" levels whatever that is.

[Malamasala]

My desire for stronger Avatar melee, does indeed only let us do the same things but better. However your spirits wishlist tries to fill needs already filled.

But it fills them better. Which as I quote, is your argument for avatar updates.

But that is enough pointing fingers at your biased opinions. It isn't like you aren't allowed to have them. I just tried to explain why they were biased. Probably more for SE staff than you.

[Razushu]

But it fills them better. Which as I quote, is your argument for avatar updates.

But that is enough pointing fingers at your biased opinions. It isn't like you aren't allowed to have them. I just tried to explain why they were biased. Probably more for SE staff than you.

Each of the utilities that you listed for "fixed" spirits is already filled by Avatars, so what is the point? We get it you like spirits, but that's a pretty awful reason to adjust spirits. Your own bias is very clear, you want to use spirits day to day, so you will ignore things like they're far weaker than Avatars.

Summoner needs a boost not new toys that leave us exactly where we are now. Thats why I agrue for a boost to Avatars over spirits, every job has tools it leaves behind as it levels up and Summoner is no exception. Saying spirits are broken , is akin to a BLM complaining that Fire doesn't do enough damage any more.

Spirits have a use already they are a great emergency pet, light spirit can give Pro/Shell V before a solo fight, and they give us a big chunk of MP back every 5 minutes. For everything else there's Avatars, and as it stands they are better buffers, nukers, DDs/Tanks and healers, why on earth would you want SE to waste time buffing spirits to near the level of current Avatars when they could better spend it buffing the Avatars.

I honestly get the impression you've taken up the cause of spirits, precisely because they're useless as combat pets. A boost to them isn't needed at all, we need help with our main pets to be more accepted.

For the record I'm not against a buff to spirits completely. I'm just against it now when there's so much more the job needs, that the devs would better much better employed fixing the things the job uses 90% of the time before it looks at stuff we play with occasionally.

[Covenant]

So what are the buffs of people would like see? I've named quite a few, but in generals the buff people want for a avatar are the same buff everyone wants, namely melee damage and haste. There also the AoE suggestion floating around. This damage can be either physical or magical in nature.

I look at bluemages for inspiration. Most if not all of their spells offer dual, or tri effects under one spell use. At this point in the game why can Summoners expect their avatar's Bloodpacts to feature not only damage but increased debuffs?

I've had this idea for redmage for like forever, but willing to let a summoner have it. A spell/bloodpact called Murk. Murk would drop evasion, give blindness, and gravity to mobs.

Diabolos better get his "curse" move....what is it? Cacodemonia? Something like that. And what about his BIO III? While I truly enjoy Nightmare, what about giving Diabolos "Sleep III"? How about Barsleepara II or III? Or what about a bloodwards that grants TP/MP/HP whole under sleep called "Wet Dream"?

Carbuncle "light shield" bloodwards, occasionally absorbs damage. Enlighten II?

Garuda AoE "Shroud" AoE invisible/sneak isn't it about time? Improved "Shroud" chance to avoid True Sight/sound.

Titan. "Sentinel"(same as Paladin). Def up and enmity up. "Full Force strike" a strong attack, strong knock back, bind.

Fenrir. "Firestarter" severe Burn(think tier 2 or 3) and accuracy down(on the account your on fire).

I'd like to examine giving each avatar a version of "absorb type spell" but tier II. Fenrir-STR, TiTan-VIT, Garuda-AGI, Ramuh-DEX, Etc. Or, giving them the next tier of elemental debuffs such as BurnII, ChokeII, etc. Number wise maybe
20-50 stats(resistance, but NO decay just straight duration, DoT effects.). Or, similar to scholar helix or even better a blue Mage "breath attack".

I gonna suggest a cheat now...how about a bloodpact that summons an extra elemental to fight beside it. Think bloodpact 200-300mp, duration(as long as avatar is out). Elemental will occasionally cast an elemental nuke on avatar healing damage? Elemental will share hate only with Avatar.

As far as a Summoner Job ability, how about "Charm Elemental"? A summoner will be able to charm(as a Beastmaster) random elementals. Once Charm the same rules of charm works, however A modify -mp per starts. Perhaps a lower cost than regular spirits(since at any moment can be in harmed). Elemental Siphon still functional. Think this could be really useful especially at earlier levels.

[Malamasala]

I honestly get the impression you've taken up the cause of spirits, precisely because they're useless as combat pets. A boost to them isn't needed at all, we need help with our main pets to be more accepted.

I like updates that give a lot of of effect.

Improved avatar melee won't change a thing, except parser results.
Improved BP:Rage damage won't change a thing, except parser results.
Reducing perpetuation would allow low level SMNs to play... but these days low levels are gone so less important.

Improved BP timer will make a difference, and SE are working on this. Hopefully it will be a big difference.

Improving ward potency would make a large difference, and allow us to put up for example phalanx with useful potency.
Improving spirits would make a large difference, and allow us to DD at greater distances, or assist whole alliances.
Improving favors so that it isn't just a negative with very little positive bonus would also go a long way.


I simply want updates that make people go "Oh, you can do that now?" rather than having to say "Did you see that? My avatar melee hit did 100 damage". I have a feeling that the job will be more popular if it visibly is updated, than if you have to go on a forum and post a parse to show the update difference.

Spirit update -> People ask why you use spirits -> They get amazed at the big change -> Spread word that SMN is much better now.
Avatar damage update -> Nobody notices because WAR still does highest damage -> You have to advertise the changes yourself.

I still think that even if you dislike my ideas, those benefit SMNs more in the long run. Assuming of course that they "Fix" things, and not just do a half-assed attempt and end up with something like favors, which is just not good enough to give a new role to SMN and impress people.

[Razushu]

I like updates that give a lot of of effect.

Improved avatar melee won't change a thing, except parser results.
Improved BP:Rage damage won't change a thing, except parser results.
Reducing perpetuation would allow low level SMNs to play... but these days low levels are gone so less important.

Improved BP timer will make a difference, and SE are working on this. Hopefully it will be a big difference.

Improving ward potency would make a large difference, and allow us to put up for example phalanx with useful potency.
Improving spirits would make a large difference, and allow us to DD at greater distances, or assist whole alliances.
Improving favors so that it isn't just a negative with very little positive bonus would also go a long way.

Improved Avatar damage both DPS and Blood Pact would really change things, we would get more invites as a ranged /magical DD than we do now, i.e an accepted general use nuker rather than the common no TP only most people seem to suffer from. Wards potency would help us out a great deal(personally after getting BP delay fixed, this is the fix I'd most like to see), I'm fairly hopeful for it because they've already fixed ward durations.

The problem with fixing spirits is they would just end up stepping on the Avatars toes. Want a nuke pet? We have one already. Tank/DD pet? got one. Support pet? Have it. The only unique use to spirits aside from us now being able to play AFK, is the light spirit alliance cures, but even this is only really useful if you happen to be the only healer in the group. With all the main roles already covered by Avatars, all there was left for our low level pets was MP management. Unless SE can create a new role for spirits a buff to them would be pointless, and will probably take a back burneruntil the job is fixed itself.


I simply want updates that make people go "Oh, you can do that now?" rather than having to say "Did you see that? My avatar melee hit did 100 damage". I have a feeling that the job will be more popular if it visibly is updated, than if you have to go on a forum and post a parse to show the update difference.

Spirit update -> People ask why you use spirits -> They get amazed at the big change -> Spread word that SMN is much better now.
Avatar damage update -> Nobody notices because WAR still does highest damage -> You have to advertise the changes yourself.

I still think that even if you dislike my ideas, those benefit SMNs more in the long run. Assuming of course that they "Fix" things, and not just do a half-assed attempt and end up with something like favors, which is just not good enough to give a new role to SMN and impress people.

A gimmick update, like making spirits comparable to Avatars in nukeing etc. would not go like that at all.

Spirit update-> why are you using spirits -> "oh so nothings really changed" -> SMN in the same place with more pets to choose from.
-> no one other than SMNs care.
Avatar Damage update-> things die faster-> even bigger spike damage numbers-> we have something to advertise.

A damage boost would be a very visible buff as is, I still surprise some people on SMN when I make a mobs HP bar go away, with one Predator claws, and take healthy chunks off an NMs life, a good boost to Avatar damage would actually be the most notable buff to the job. We already have a rep as spike DDs, increase our damage and spread that rep further = more people bringing SMN to more things.Having said this the new BP delay JA could provide this boost.

It's not that I dislike your ideas, it's just when it comes to spirits all it would amount to is a side grade, unless they make them stronger than our Avatars(which I can't see happening). As a job we need arguably the most love, and even though it's starting to look like we're gonna get it, I'd rather they buff the things we use everyday, before looking at things like spirits.

[Korpg]

Improving spirits would make a large difference, and allow us to DD at greater distances, or assist whole alliances.

I'm sorry, but how would improvement on spirits make any difference at all when you don't have any control over them, or allow anyone to DD at greater distance when you can't do anything until you sic the pet on the mob?

[Covenant]

People talk about balance and don't understand what they're talking about. Every single job wants to do two things only. More melee damage and do it faster(haste). Next you hear two complaints, well loom at warriors I can't compete. This argument from WHM, RDM, and Summoners. As if your supposed to be meleeN and getting the same numbers warrior get.

Summoners are supposed to have a spread of abilites across all of the summons(not only avatars). If SquareEnix had kept the original separation of nuke/spirits and physical/avatar it would have been easier to see. Unfortunately, they cavedin dropping all support to spirits 1year after game release and focused on avatar alone.

I can understand some of their thinking. Namely, any pet changes would not only affect players but mob pets as well. How would players like to see elementals and pets casting -JA, AMII, and whatnot spells. For the most part mob avatar are NM only and any player changes would have limited impact on mobs. Unfortunately elementals and pets are everywhere.
Second, players abandon elemental early on due to high perp costs and super slow casting cycles. Only elite player would appropriate gear could hope to lower casting cycles to the cap of 33secs? Can you imagine who would play BLM if they could only cast every 30sec~1min? And only on a set cycle? No player would ever play that job. As no summoner uses spirits for exactly those reasons.

Extra damage and faster damage is always a plus, but we have to BAlANCE summoner with other uses.

[Soundwave]

I'm sorry, but how would improvement on spirits make any difference at all when you don't have any control over them, or allow anyone to DD at greater distance when you can't do anything until you sic the pet on the mob?

I'm know its kinda corny, but I just saw the new planet of the apes movie and here is a quote....

**Contains Spoilers**



If we can control spirits as well as avatar I'm afraid it would just upset the current balance between spirits and avatars. I know your dying for some type of update Mala.....don't get your hopes up when it does come....because spirits won't > Avatars.

I would personally like to see more updates to our avatars rather than a mindless AI.

[Razushu]

People talk about balance and don't understand what they're talking about. Every single job wants to do two things only. More melee damage and do it faster(haste). Next you hear two complaints, well loom at warriors I can't compete. This argument from WHM, RDM, and Summoners. As if your supposed to be meleeN and getting the same numbers warrior get.

Summoners are supposed to have a spread of abilites across all of the summons(not only avatars). If SquareEnix had kept the original separation of nuke/spirits and physical/avatar it would have been easier to see. Unfortunately, they cavedin dropping all support to spirits 1year after game release and focused on avatar alone.

I can understand some of their thinking. Namely, any pet changes would not only affect players but mob pets as well. How would players like to see elementals and pets casting -JA, AMII, and whatnot spells. For the most part mob avatar are NM only and any player changes would have limited impact on mobs. Unfortunately elementals and pets are everywhere.
Second, players abandon elemental early on due to high perp costs and super slow casting cycles. Only elite player would appropriate gear could hope to lower casting cycles to the cap of 33secs? Can you imagine who would play BLM if they could only cast every 30sec~1min? And only on a set cycle? No player would ever play that job. As no summoner uses spirits for exactly those reasons.

Extra damage and faster damage is always a plus, but we have to BAlANCE summoner with other uses.

SE has never said they want us to use Avatars and spirits equally, in fact whenever they talk about us the say "Avatars". Why would the elemental Gods not have access to heavier nukes than spirits? I honestly don't see how SE could have intended us to use spirits for nuking over Avatars, they're damage was terrible even at low levels. The spirits were there so Summoners could have something other than Carbuncle to use when SMN was first introduced, they were then given new life with Elemental Siphon. This ability alone makes them far more used than some of our Avatars.

Thank Altana they let spirits fall behind in favour of Avatars nuking, I wouldn't like the choice of Buffing/DDing(w/Physical pacts) vs. unpredicatable nukes only. A controllable pet is also far superior to an AI one(ask any PUP), I'd take Heavenly strike on demand every time over a chance of a Tier IV or AM. There's nothing wrong with abandoning spirits early in favor of Avatars(ask any newb lvl 1 WAR that picks up a G.Axe over the Onion Sword at the earliest point possible), the tools we use at low level get replaced by our higher level abilities sometimes.

[Soundwave]

SE has never said they want us to use Avatars and spirits equally, in fact whenever they talk about us the say "Avatars". Why would the elemental Gods not have access to heavier nukes than spirits? I honestly don't see how SE could have intended us to use spirits for nuking over Avatars, they're damage was terrible even at low levels. The spirits were there so Summoners could have something other than Carbuncle to use when SMN was first introduced, they were then given new life with Elemental Siphon. This ability alone makes them far more used than some of our Avatars.

Thank Altana they let spirits fall behind in favour of Avatars nuking, I wouldn't like the choice of Buffing/DDing(w/Physical pacts) vs. unpredicatable nukes only. A controllable pet is also far superior to an AI one(ask any PUP), I'd take Heavenly strike on demand every time over a chance of a Tier IV or AM. There's nothing wrong with abandoning spirits early in favor of Avatars(ask any newb lvl 1 WAR that picks up a G.Axe over the Onion Sword at the earliest point possible), the tools we use at low level get replaced by our higher level abilities sometimes.

This post x100, everything is spot on here to me.

[Covenant]

I don't ever say that spirits should ever overtake avatars, however look at my OP argument. Avatars received TWO tiers of magic before Blackmages, namely tier II and IV, by a significant factor(usually 10-16 levels before). Spirits matched BLM Mage nuking capabilities lvl for lvl, Gaining tier 1-IV, and AM.

Logically, the level in-between an avatars tier II and IV, nuking would be filled by spirits in a very limited capacity. Avatars however, were the first players to receive the dual/tri effect capabilities that a Bluemage now enjoys. For example, titan was damage/slow, Ramuh dmage/paralyze...etc. It was a physical attack with strong elemental components. At best as summoner/avatar nukes were simply for magic burst situations(10%) with their physical Bloodpacts for 80-90% of their use.

The point of the physical damage down effect of spirits as opposed to avatars. Spirits by their very nature are not fully represented on the physical plane. Spirits represent an elemental energy, while avatars have NO natural physical down capabilities other than those by bloodwards. Avatar have manifested in a physical body to strike out at enemies, making them much more vulnerable to physical damage.

I'm actually disappointed by the path avatars have taken. The path I see is simply one of out damaging the previous ability. Rather than simple damage for avatars, SE should return to the multi-effect path of avatars earlier power and enhance them even more greatly. Abilties like "Nightmare" are amazing...sleep WITH Damage over time or even Ramuh Thunder strike still is impressive. Would a ten-hit strike for every avatar be cool? Of course it would.

Not being an "end-game" player, I still here people talking about NM resistances. What if Summoners could bridge the gaps for player to land normal debuffs and spells?

[Razushu]

I don't ever say that spirits should ever overtake avatars, however look at my OP argument. Avatars received TWO tiers of magic before Blackmages, namely tier II and IV, by a significant factor(usually 10-16 levels before). Spirits matched BLM Mage nuking capabilities lvl for lvl, Gaining tier 1-IV, and AM.

Logically, the level in-between an avatars tier II and IV, nuking would be filled by spirits in a very limited capacity. Avatars however, were the first players to receive the dual/tri effect capabilities that a Bluemage now enjoys. For example, titan was damage/slow, Ramuh dmage/paralyze...etc. It was a physical attack with strong elemental components. At best as summoner/avatar nukes were simply for magic burst situations(10%) with their physical Bloodpacts for 80-90% of their use.

Yeah and we get them all in one chunk(because there's no damage hierarchy in them), If Avatars got them like BLM, it would take 20 levels(tier IIs) to get them all, and we wouldn't start getting the Tier IVs until 68. Giving them to use in two chunks at lvl10 and lvl60 gave SE the ability to skip Tiers I & III, while keeping with their "we are afraid certain avatars will be selected disproportionately frequently and the variance of avatars will be limited." standpoint, I know it's flawed as far as Physical pacts are concerned, but we're discussing nukes and until Abyssea(Atma of the Beyond), Avatars were equal as to which 75 Pacts are picked.

Technically Theres no "in-between Levels", unless you count lvl51-59 where we are stuck with Tier IIs while BLMs start getting Tier IIIs. Until then we're using Tier IIs while BLMs do and we start using Tier IVs, while BLMs are on Tier IIIs.

It would be nice if they updated the 70 pacts with an Added effect(they already started with Thunder Strike's Stun), or even add them to the merit pacts.


The point of the physical damage down effect of spirits as opposed to avatars. Spirits by their very nature are not fully represented on the physical plane. Spirits represent an elemental energy, while avatars have NO natural physical down capabilities other than those by bloodwards. Avatar have manifested in a physical body to strike out at enemies, making them much more vulnerable to physical damage.

I'm actually disappointed by the path avatars have taken. The path I see is simply one of out damaging the previous ability. Rather than simple damage for avatars, SE should return to the multi-effect path of avatars earlier power and enhance them even more greatly. Abilties like "Nightmare" are amazing...sleep WITH Damage over time or even Ramuh Thunder strike still is impressive. Would a ten-hit strike for every avatar be cool? Of course it would.

Not being an "end-game" player, I still here people talking about NM resistances. What if Summoners could bridge the gaps for player to land normal debuffs and spells?

Spirits is only a name for them, they're elementals. Avatars have the same -50% PDT as spirits, spirits can also "melee", aswell as Avatars, leaving them just as vunerable to physical damage.

With BP timers in the state they are, it was unfortunately the only way we could go. Unless they add these effects to the Rages we use to DD, they're never gonna be used. Take Fenrir as an example he gets Blind and a potent paralyze effect, but they share a timer with Eclipse Bite so they'll never see the light of day past lvl65.

[Korpg]

Yeah and we get them all in one chunk(because there's no damage hierarchy in them), If Avatars got them like BLM, it would take 20 levels(tier IIs) to get them all, and we wouldn't start getting the Tier IVs until 68. Giving them to use in two chunks at lvl10 and lvl60 gave SE the ability to skip Tiers I & III, while keeping with their "we are afraid certain avatars will be selected disproportionately frequently and the variance of avatars will be limited." standpoint, I know it's flawed as far as Physical pacts are concerned, but we're discussing nukes and until Abyssea(Atma of the Beyond), Avatars were equal as to which 75 Pacts are picked.

Up until you added merits to specific blood pacts. 3/5 Heavenly Strike will always do better unresisted damage than 1/5 Thunderstorm, but technically, we still choose avatars based on the weakest element resist on the mob, or at least smart summoners do. Any SMN who uses Geocrush on Dragua needs to be taken out back and shot.

[Razushu]

Up until you added merits to specific blood pacts. 3/5 Heavenly Strike will always do better unresisted damage than 1/5 Thunderstorm, but technically, we still choose avatars based on the weakest element resist on the mob, or at least smart summoners do. Any SMN who uses Geocrush on Dragua needs to be taken out back and shot.

Yeah but thats my point aside from which you choose to merit higher, they are all equal. I have 5/5 Heavenly Strike and 1/5 in the others, just because Shiva benefits from Beyond more, and I just use the appropriate element of the mob otherwise. Was doing Mictlantecuhtli last night Meteor Strike 1/5 was doing 1k~1.5k(TP Variance).

TBH what I would love to see is a change in our Group 2 merits, make it so Level 1 unlocks the Pact and subsequent levels add a debuff to the Pact like an added effect that increases in potency each merit.

[Korpg]

Personally, they shouldn't allow limits to merits in the first place.

[Malamasala]

I'm sorry, but how would improvement on spirits make any difference at all when you don't have any control over them, or allow anyone to DD at greater distance when you can't do anything until you sic the pet on the mob?

Ever fight a HNM? They do not choose their TP moves, they random them. No control at all, yet you probably wouldn't say no to one AV as a pet. The difference lies in how often it does stuff. If AV only waited 50 seconds to toss Aero IV he'd be quite a lot easier.

The difference between a spirit and a monster is simply how often and how devastating it attacks. Take your average elemental for example. Does it really take 50 seconds for each spell? I tend to feel like they cast more like every 15 seconds. Them casting and being near uninterruptable also helps.

Control doesn't matter, attack frequency is where it is at. You could remove BPs completely, but have avatars attack at insane speeds and TP every 20 seconds and we'd be far better than now. No control, just plain raw power.

In the end we could always just merge Raz and my opinions and we'd have improved avatars who now cast elemental magic every 15 seconds. (I say 15, since it would be random, PUPs are around 20-25 somewhere with selected spells)

[Korpg]

HNMs? All mobs have a list of possible spells/abilities/moves that they choose from. Sometimes, on somethings, they can't choose a specific ability/move until they reach a specific % (see: Cerberus).

The real difference between a spirit and a monster is, you kill one, you summon the other. I'll let you figure out which is which though.

Spirits are not nukers, they don't have the capability to choose spells out of a list, nor should we choose it for them (if we could, we would take BLMs out of their job because we would have hateless and deathless spells, for 0 MP, kindof like PUP but only better).

[Imakun]

It wouldn't even come close to PUP. (A good) PUP is already better than a BLM, let alone a SMN even if we could choose our spirit's spells.
We have no way of enhancing a spirit's Magic attack or accuracy like a BLM or a PUP and their AI plain sucks (hi2u Regen and Haste). >>

Truth be told, I don't even care about spirits. I'd rather have SE focus on Avatars and just forget about spirits. They're mana batteries and I'm content with that.
We have far more important stuff to address than our retarded spirits.

[Korpg]

Yeah, but Mala has already stated that he wants the SMNs to choose the spell from the spirits. That alone would edge out BLMs a little because we can always just resummon the spirit instead of waiting 45 seconds to use the spell again, unless they do a global timer like avatars. Even then, it would edge out PUPs because we can choose which spell to use, instead of the automation choosing their own spells.

It takes PUPs about a minute to buff up the automation to do just as much damage as a BLM, and the only think the automation has over BLMs is the ability to disappear and reappear almost instantly.

[Xaven]

What about having the ability to Blood Pack for the Spirits? I've always hoped they would update some day where i could. almost lvl 99 now and yet 2 see it happen

[JanetDax]

One thing that bothers me about the upcoming level increases is another scramble to deal with perp costs. This is the weakness of SMN in my opinion. I usually wind up ending every fight with carby because anything else burns mana

[Malamasala]

HNMs? All mobs have a list of possible spells/abilities/moves that they choose from. Sometimes, on somethings, they can't choose a specific ability/move until they reach a specific % (see: Cerberus).

Mostly an issue about TP spam. Some HNM have their "use TP at 100%" coding, while regular monsters can get any amount of TP because they have a kind of BST timer that determines how often they check for TP.


Truth be told, I don't even care about spirits. I'd rather have SE focus on Avatars and just forget about spirits. They're mana batteries and I'm content with that.
We have far more important stuff to address than our retarded spirits.

I don't find them important either. I find them an eyesore. Delete them or fix them, doesn't matter to me as long as something is done instead of pretending they don't exist except as some kind of pre-JA to Siphon.

They are equal to dog poo in my eyes. Remove or convince me there is a reason I got dog poo all over the place.


Yeah, but Mala has already stated that he wants the SMNs to choose the spell from the spirits.

I don't remember saying that. While you are probably making stuff up as usual, I won't deny it could accidentally happen that I'd say that. Usually I just say that they should have a guaranteed spell cycle. Nuke > dot > Nuke > dot or dot > Nuke > dot Nuke. The "or" part is so you don't end up with it being good to resummon after each nuke, or screw you over if you have to resummon and make you end up with dot > resummon > dot > resummon > dot.

So yea, less "pick spell" and more "guaranteed nuke in 30 seconds" design is what I want. After all, I don't think you can out-DD a PUP or BLM with a 30 seconds delay between nukes, but you can probably speed up your DD compared to waiting 45 seconds on a BP. (With a good alternative to do BP > spirit > nuke > BP style)

Of course that is my idea from 2005, so it doesn't take into account the new 2011/2012 -BP timer JA SE is adding. When that comes, it is possible my spirit ideas will seem even worse.

[Razushu]

I don't find them important either. I find them an eyesore. Delete them or fix them, doesn't matter to me as long as something is done instead of pretending they don't exist except as some kind of pre-JA to Siphon.

They are equal to dog poo in my eyes. Remove or convince me there is a reason I got dog poo all over the place.


Try not to let them bother you, every job has redundant elements. At least the were given a use, one trick ponies though they are. SE gave them a gimmick to make them feel like part of the team, and for me it works enough that I don't spend too much time dwelling on the meaning of their existence.

How about this that dog poo is full of rich creamy ether, if you rub it all over you you'll refill your MP...... and maybe have smoother skin too.

[Soundwave]

Try not to let them bother you, every job has redundant elements. At least the were given a use, one trick ponies though they are. SE gave them a gimmick to make them feel like part of the team, and for me it works enough that I don't spend too much time dwelling on the meaning of their existence.

How about this that dog poo is full of rich creamy ether, if you rub it all over you you'll refill your MP...... and maybe have smoother skin too.

I'm totally forgetting what you just said right now....

[Razushu]

I'm totally forgetting what you just said right now....

Awh come on, we're all Summoners here. We all do it, there's nothing to be ashamed of. :D

[solodragon1984]

we summoners need more good stuff not junk like some of those 80+ BP's only a few are worth the time to use lol like enfire,movement speed up and eva,atk down,Holy mist, Night Terror, Lunar Bay and titan got screwed for the better terms on new BP cause not many Summoners would melee let alone tank and i see how it would work if fighting a magic/blm type mob but a melee type but long post short
We Need More Better Stuff and not junk

[Malamasala]

While I think the new pacts like shiva's and levi's wards were nice, I'm a bit disappointed that completely unique pacts wouldn't deal damage also. I can understand slowga and sleepga not doing damage, since they are more or less copies of existing spells. But when it is something brand new, it should deal a tiny amount of damage also. Like 200 damage.

[Razushu]

While I think the new pacts like shiva's and levi's wards were nice, I'm a bit disappointed that completely unique pacts wouldn't deal damage also. I can understand slowga and sleepga not doing damage, since they are more or less copies of existing spells. But when it is something brand new, it should deal a tiny amount of damage also. Like 200 damage.

Or if they dealt a moderate amount of damage to the target mob, something like 1/2 the damage of a merit pact. The other mobs in range would only recieve the XXX down effect.

[Covenant]

On imagine if they combined whatever titans "critical down" move with an AOE damage. Visually think of Titan summoning a wall of stones(stoneskin) that mob get rock damages as the rocks gather in the center. I also like ifrits/Ramuh to have a sorta helix/storm/spike ability, that ass long as mobs stay within an AOE around those avatars they will receive constant DoT damage. Think Firestorm or chain lightening.