Why complain about balance - recent job changes.

[JackDaniels]

We have nine more levels to go before everyone's jobs are complete. Please stop saying 'oh my class is now useless because you are obviously neglecting it on purpose because you dont know how to balance classes if your lives depended on it'. Suggestions are ok, but some of you are laying it on a bit thick lol, a little over dramatic (especially the people who main RDM).

I'm pretty sure the balance at level 99 is going to be a lot better than the balance at 90... people seriously need to be patient, this game isn't going anywhere any time soon and I'm sure the devs (minus the UI team) all have half a brain and can see where they want to take the jobs of Vana'Diel.

[Malamasala]

You have too much blind faith.

Take for example spirits. We had 75 as cap for years, and these were the most unbalanced (in a negative way) thing in the game and nothing was done about it. Believing that SE magically will fix them for their level 99 cap release would be nothing but insanity incarnated.

I'm pretty sure jobs like DRK or PLD have no worries though. I'm sure those will automatically solve themselves up to 99. It isn't like anything is broken there, they just aren't best in Abyssea.

[Yarly]

You have too much blind faith.

Take for example spirits. We had 75 as cap for years, and these were the most unbalanced (in a negative way) thing in the game and nothing was done about it. Believing that SE magically will fix them for their level 99 cap release would be nothing but insanity incarnated.

I'm pretty sure jobs like DRK or PLD have no worries though. I'm sure those will automatically solve themselves up to 99. It isn't like anything is broken there, they just aren't best in Abyssea.

This is the part where the entire FFXI community completely forgot that spirits are THE most essential part of a well played SMN. Thanks Mala for being the SMN advocate for the FFXI community! I think I see a hordecore junior!

[Neonii]

What I understand from the conversations on this forum is the usefulness of jobs cycle through the different areas. Also, I have come to understand that it is acceptable to table the job you are best at in favor of whats needed (even if you are mediocre on the one you are playing). So for everyone feeling useless at the moment it's ok. Your time will come. Meanwhile, relax and take one for the team.

[Bumbeen]

This is the part where the entire FFXI community completely forgot that spirits are THE most essential part of a well played SMN. Thanks Mala for being the SMN advocate for the FFXI community! I think I see a hordecore junior!

He learned from kiba

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Jobs were not balanced at 75.
Jobs will not be balanced at 99.

Blind faith wont change that.

[JackDaniels]

Wow u guys are all such negative nancys :P

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Nah, the term is realistic.

[Alhanelem]

Why complain about balance? So SE has some idea of what needs to change as we advance those 9 more levels. If we don't speak up, they won't have a dang clue what to do.

Really, why do you have to ask?

[Selzak]

Why make a thread about this? It's not even the end of the month yet. I'm pretty sure people will stop wanting the jobs to be balanced at the end of the month.

[JackDaniels]

Really, why do you have to ask?

It's silly to make such a huge deal (by huge deal I mean "OMG the sky is falling! the sky is falling!!") over the balance @ level 90 when 99 is right around the corner, the balance at 90 won't even matter anymore at that point. Do we actually have a solid list of skills and abilities we're going to attain between 91-99.


Why make a thread about this?

Post count +1? You win!

[Zagen]

It's silly to make such a huge deal (by huge deal I mean "OMG the sky is falling! the sky is falling!!") over the balance @ level 90 when 99 is right around the corner, the balance at 90 won't even matter anymore at that point. Do we actually have a solid list of skills and abilities we're going to attain between 91-99.

The thing is as was said jobs weren't balanced at 75, at 80 they still weren't balanced, at 85 they weren't balanced, and at 90 they still aren't balanced in any different way than at 75. Why would we keep our mouths shut about the fact the jobs aren't balanced expecting them to be magically fixed in 9 levels when they haven't done it in 15 thus far?

[Greatguardian]

Jobs aren't even meant to be balanced in any one context.

Will Warrior be able to solo as effectively as DNC, BST, RDM, and SMN? Naw, son.

Will Summoner be able to DD as effectively as WAR, MNK, SAM, and NIN? Naw.

It's all about context. All 20 jobs being equally viable at any given thing defeats the entire purpose of being able to change jobs on a whim. SE never intended for the players to build such an emotional attachment to any one job or another. They figured, when we came across something that X job was poorly built for, we'd switch to Y job for it. With 380 different main/sub job combinations available to us, the strategy of FFXI is and always has been finding the best set of tools for the job in front of you.

[Zagen]

Jobs aren't even meant to be balanced in any one context.

Will Warrior be able to solo as effectively as DNC, BST, RDM, and SMN? Naw, son.

Will Summoner be able to DD as effectively as WAR, MNK, SAM, and NIN? Naw.

It's all about context. All 20 jobs being equally viable at any given thing defeats the entire purpose of being able to change jobs on a whim. SE never intended for the players to build such an emotional attachment to any one job or another. They figured, when we came across something that X job was poorly built for, we'd switch to Y job for it. With 380 different main/sub job combinations available to us, the strategy of FFXI is and always has been finding the best set of tools for the job in front of you.
I agree jobs shouldn't be 100% equal but when I can do 90% of the game's content with 4 jobs what's the point of the other 16?

[Greatguardian]

You can do Abyssea with pretty much the same 6 jobs, but pre-Abyssea it was a completely different set of "Superjobs". BRD, RDM, SAMx2 could pretty much destroy all pre-Abyssea content before the cap increase (bar AV/PW, and a couple zergs), and now those jobs are pretty much in the crapper.

You can go back and do old Dynamis/Einherjar/Salvage/etc with the whole mnk/nin/war/whm dream team now, but it wasn't as feasible back at 75; and pretty much any group of 4 can handle old content now anyways.

Unfortunately, the entirety of what players consider content is not the same as what the Developers consider content. If I were to call SMN or BST anything, I'd call them solo and BCNM jobs. Because they do excel at both of those things. Can you beat every BCNM out there with MNK MNK WHM? Depends. Definitely depends. There are a few where you really just can't.

If you take away the limitation of context from Endgame-only, "Off" jobs become much more useful. Now, I don't think this is ideal personally, because Endgame content is the most important/rewarding set of content around. But it's not impossible to see where the Developers are coming from, and what they intended with the job system the way it is now.

Besides, when harder content comes back into play (this is already starting to show with voidwatch), the standard zerg strategy becomes significantly less inviting. Each job has traits and abilities that make them unique. It's just a matter of mixing and matching those traits and abilities to find out what does best on X fight.

[Bagel]

I agree jobs shouldn't be 100% equal but when I can do 90% of the game's content with 4 jobs what's the point of the other 16?

This is the same thing people were screaming about in 2005 with rng burns, then mnk KRT parties, then wars then sam...etc etc etc. The game is continually changing and there is always one job that will outperform others when all else is equal. If your job isn't top tier atm, learn more about your class. As long as you have a decent understanding of game mechanics and how to play your job, you will be able to contribute successfully to a group.

[JackDaniels]

This is the same thing people were screaming about in 2005 with rng burns, then mnk KRT parties, then wars then sam...etc etc etc. The game is continually changing and there is always one job that will outperform others when all else is equal. If your job isn't top tier atm, learn more about your class. As long as you have a decent understanding of game mechanics and how to play your job, you will be able to contribute successfully to a group.

Exactly :) Thanks for that.

Ppl need to chill lol :)

[Zagen]

This is the same thing people were screaming about in 2005 with rng burns, then mnk KRT parties, then wars then sam...etc etc etc. The game is continually changing and there is always one job that will outperform others when all else is equal. If your job isn't top tier atm, learn more about your class. As long as you have a decent understanding of game mechanics and how to play your job, you will be able to contribute successfully to a group.
In 2005 I was laughed at for suggesting MNK and NIN were a better tank options. Nothing changed over those 6 years that made them a better tank option (at least not game changing that I'm aware of) other than the fact that people got better at the game and realized these jobs were good at tanking.

In 2006 or 2007 (I forget when I was into the HNM scene) WHM wasn't "needed" at 75 as a RDM was just as good if not overall a better healer. WHM has Cure V and VI, players have overall more HP and yet outside of Abyssea for old content and the new BCNM type fights Cure IV is more than enough to keep players alive.

The list can go on but the point doesn't change jobs haven't been balanced in the sense there is very little need for most jobs, this was true at 75 and it is still true today, and will likely be true at 99.

[Bagel]

In 2005 I was laughed at for suggesting MNK and NIN were a better tank options.

It can take a long time to change the mind of the player base. Really though, what it comes down to is who is at the controls. I'll take a good player playing X job over another playing play Y job, even though Y may ideally be able to contribute better to a particular fight.

It will not matter if another job is better than yours if you play it well enough to get the job done. Wasn't there a shell a long while back that used to use WAR/WHM to tank Tiamat back when it was current content? I am sure a pld/nin or nin/drk /brd would have been a more ideal choice for the fight, but they got it done and done well.

[Sparthos]

Uh in 2005 you couldn't soak damage like you can now, MNK tanking would not have been viable given the gear options and JA selection of the date and PDT and MDT options were not widely understood. Food options were also limited along with Refresh.

It wasn't only a matter of the base being ignorant, the tools simply didn't exist at the time.

NIN was always a tank but PLD provided the superior safety-net of the day. In EXP people preferred Ninja because of the added damage the class brought over PLD but at HNMs shadows could often be easily stripped leading to death.

The idea of a turtle PLD lasted as long as it did because the stakes were high, days if not weeks of work would be put into pop sets and the idea of using anything other than the "tank" class seemed self-defeating. Why wipe because of experimentation?

[Alhanelem]

It's silly to make such a huge deal (by huge deal I mean "OMG the sky is falling! the sky is falling!!") over the balance @ level 90 when 99 is right around the corner, the balance at 90 won't even matter anymore at that point. Do we actually have a solid list of skills and abilities we're going to attain between 91-99.



Post count +1? You win!
It seems to me like you're making a far bigger deal out of this...

You asked a quesiton. I gave an answer. Nothing more to it than that. It just seemed to me like you're telling people they shouldn't complain about job balance because we have more levels coming. To me, thats precisely the reason people should be speaking up about it- to make sure it goes in the right direction.

[Zagen]

Uh in 2005 you couldn't soak damage like you can now, MNK tanking would not have been viable given the gear options and JA selection of the date and PDT and MDT options were not widely understood. Food options were also limited along with Refresh.

My MNK tanks in 0 -PDT or -MDT from gear almost 100% of the time. It isn't needed, it is helpful but again it isn't and hasn't been needed. I'll give you sushi didn't exist back then but then again I always ate/eat meat(attack) on my MNK if I'm eating food.

Edit: I don't remember when they were introduced but I had Arhat's Gi and Arhat's Jinpachi (+1s were too pricey back then) for when shadows were down on NIN. As far as I know/remember they were in the game since I can remember but I can't be certain if that dates back to 2005.

[Sparthos]

My MNK tanks in 0 -PDT or -MDT from gear almost 100% of the time. It isn't needed, it is helpful but again it isn't and hasn't been needed. I'll give you sushi didn't exist back then but then again I always ate/eat meat(attack) on my MNK if I'm eating food.

And eating meat meant your hitrate would have garbage against anything outside EXP mobs.

MNK was awesome on bones in KRT but against the HNMs of the day, you'd have been taken to school. NIN was only tanking because of the tools accessed via /DRK, the most popular SJ of the day but still less desired than PLD simply because of how difficult it was to get anything done back then.

I'll give you this - MNK was sorely underrated in EXP parties in 2005.

[JackDaniels]

It seems to me like you're making a far bigger deal out of this...

You asked a quesiton. I gave an answer. Nothing more to it than that. It just seemed to me like you're telling people they shouldn't complain about job balance because we have more levels coming. To me, thats precisely the reason people should be speaking up about it- to make sure it goes in the right direction.

Gosh, it seems to me that you like nitpicking and arguing with everyone. I really can't stand ostentatious opinionated pedantic and pretentious forum nazis such as yourself. Time for you to move out of mom's basement me thinks.

/endtroll >:D

[Zagen]

And eating meat meant your hitrate would have garbage against anything outside EXP mobs.
Dunno about you but HNM groups I was in/knew about rolled with BRDs back in the day and usually they sang march/madrigal before sushi.

[Sparthos]

Dunno about you but HNM groups I was in/knew about rolled with BRDs back in the day and usually they sang march/madrigal before sushi.

While it's possible your HNM group simply had better organization than my own, with period gear + meat + madrigal I still believe your hitrate wouldn't be sufficient enough to keep hate against HNMs.

Your attack also would not have been enough to overcome level correction which was different back in '05.

Asurans was a notoriously finicky WS and its wide variation on EXP mobs would become even more apparent on HNMs.

By all means I encourage someone to math it out though.

[Tezz]

While it's possible your HNM group simply had better organization than my own, with period gear + meat + madrigal I still believe your hitrate wouldn't be sufficient enough to keep hate against HNMs.

Your attack also would not have been enough to overcome level correction which was different back in '05.

Asurans was a notoriously finicky WS and its wide variation on EXP mobs would become even more apparent on HNMs.

By all means I encourage someone to math it out though.

MNKs were Chi-blasting NMs anyway, getting rotated out.

[JackDaniels]

MNKs were Chi-blasting NMs anyway, getting rotated out.

Ah the good ol' days :)

[Alhanelem]

Gosh, it seems to me that you like nitpicking and arguing with everyone.No, I don't. It's not my fault if that's how you interpret it, but I don't "like" it, and don't want it to be seen that way. Those personal attacks are way over the top. I didn't say anything to insult you.

I don't disagree just for the sake of disagreeing. If you say something that I like or agree with, I would happily do so.

[Malamasala]

This is the part where the entire FFXI community completely forgot that spirits are THE most essential part of a well played SMN. Thanks Mala for being the SMN advocate for the FFXI community! I think I see a hordecore junior!

It is hard to judge something essential when it is in terrible condition. But one could pay attention to the fact that for 10 years Summoners have run around and cast cure III from /WHM while they had access to cure V from spirits. Ever see any WHMs run around as /RDM casting cure IIIs because they couldn't use their own spells?

It would be ridiculous to have to sub RDM to cure on WHM. It has always been ridiculous to need to sub WHM to cure on SMN.

Naturally though a light spirit shouldn't beat a WHM. But there are many stages between "better than WHM" and "So terrible you'd rather have a cure III".

[Alhanelem]

This is the part where the entire FFXI community completely forgot that spirits are THE most essential part of a well played SMN.Elemental Siphon is pretty essential for a well played SMN outside of abyssea, yes. Spirits are great when you need a pet in a hurry, too. But don't fool anyone into thinking spirits are "good." They have their place, and I'm perfectly happy with their current role. I do not feel spirits should ever overshadow the avatars.

Curing should be seen as an option for summoner, not a necessity- WHM was chosen by most because it was the most functional support job, not because people like curing. Summoner's ability range is wide, but as a result of this it is currently struggling to compete except in a few specific areas.

[Soundwave]

Ugh, if I hear the word spirits again I'm gonna pop!

If people don't voice their opinion then SE won't know whats of the players interest.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Ugh, if I hear the word spirits again I'm gonna pop!Then what would become of your spirit?

[Soundwave]

Then what would become of your spirit?

lol........

POP!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suai1lU4x-g&feature=related

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Hey now, I said spirit not spirits.

[Malamasala]

Ugh, if I hear the word spirits again I'm gonna pop!

If people don't voice their opinion then SE won't know whats of the players interest.

Well, you are uninterested in spirits because they don't work. You would have been interested in them, if SE fixed them. You are a bit bizarre, in that something has to first be useful before you complain that it is useless.

[Alhanelem]

You would have been interested in them, if SE fixed them.No, people wouldn't have. People play summoner because they want to see/use the avatars. Spirits will always play second fiddle even if they gain additional uses. I don't think most people realize why they originally existed in the first place.

[Malamasala]

No, people wouldn't have. People play summoner because they want to see/use the avatars. Spirits will always play second fiddle even if they gain additional uses. I don't think most people realize why they originally existed in the first place.

Well, you are partially right. I get the impression 50% of the people play the job to see Fenrir because they think a wolf is awesome. I can't count all the old stories about new people being saved by Fenrirs and getting obsessed by them.

But I don't think even SE knows why they added (all) spirits. For example Light spirit and Dark spirit are from level 55-60 NMs. The only reason these differ from avatars at all, is that they can be bought on AH after someone gets the scrolls.

And if spirits were intended to be used until you got avatars, at either level 20 or 60, why are they useless?

I think the hard faced truth of spirits is that SE just added them without any plans at all except "Give players something shiny until they get avatars". Like their only purpose was to allow skilling up summoning magic... which had no effects on the job.

Any way you look at it, they've always been a failure that SE should have fixed. They can be happy that SMNs managed to work around it with /WHM and cure 3, else the job would have been more extinct than defending ring.

[JackDaniels]

Then what would become of your spirit?

I lol'd xD


No, people wouldn't have. People play summoner because they want to see/use the avatars. Spirits will always play second fiddle even if they gain additional uses. I don't think most people realize why they originally existed in the first place.

Sorry why did they officially exist in the fist place?

[Alhanelem]

But I don't think even SE knows why they added (all) spirits.They know why they added them.
1) So that people who didn't buy Rise of the Zilart would have more than one summoning magic spell. This is the primary reason. They were (at the time) essentially spell list filler, like half the bard songs in the game.
2) to have pets with a shorter casting time
If spirits didn't get left behind (excepft light spirit, sort of) at 75 and they didn't have ZERO MAB, they'd be slightly viable if you really need the actual magic spells for something instead of the magical BPs. But they have no native MAB, no staff bonus, no nothing, and the amount of MAB that you can give them is very limited, and on top of that, their AI is slightly smarter than an intelligent rock.


Any way you look at it, they've always been a failure that SE should have fixed.
Before elemental siphon, I would have said remove them, not fix them. There's no way to "fix" them without stepping on the toes of the avatars.

[JackDaniels]

The elemental staves only lower perpetuation costs? They don't add to the strength of the summon?

[Alhanelem]

The elemental staves only lower perpetuation costs? They don't add to the strength of the summon?
Nope. They do nothing for the summons. They only lower perpetuation cost. That's why they aren't vital to summoner anymore, unlike other mage jobs. There are a whole bunch of better weapons with and without perp cost-.

Basically no item affects pets unless it explicitly says so. If it doesn't say right on it: Pet: Bla bla +1, then pets are not affected.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

That's why I'm doing pet attack and pet MAB stalves.
Then the magic acc staff and I can dump all of my elementals.

[Alhanelem]

pet MAB staves are not enough to boost spirits up to an acceptable level. And since they also affect the avatars, there's still no reason to use spirits.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

And realy the pet attack staff is basically garuda only, shiva if you swing that way.

[Alhanelem]

No amount of buffing makes rush stop being terrible. :p

It SHOULD be good, the gods know why it isn't.

MAB is far more potent than attack, anyway. YOu can stack all the pet attack there is and you'll barely see any difference.

Atmas like Razed Ruins marked the first time a physical stat enhancement ever did anything for an avatar.

[hideka]

You have too much blind faith.

Take for example spirits. We had 75 as cap for years, and these were the most unbalanced (in a negative way) thing in the game and nothing was done about it. Believing that SE magically will fix them for their level 99 cap release would be nothing but insanity incarnated.

I'm pretty sure jobs like DRK or PLD have no worries though. I'm sure those will automatically solve themselves up to 99. It isn't like anything is broken there, they just aren't best in Abyssea.

dude, every job has useless abilites and spells >_> just think as spirits like that. you dont see bsts going " AH EM GEEEEE I KANT USE COURIORER KARRY NO MOREZ!!!" its because something better and more useful replaced it >_>

and ill prove anyone in the damn world wrong if they say any job is "useless" or not good enough for abyssea. i can jump on redmage and drop consistent 3-4k vorpalblades non stop, and i can solo just about any Seal NM that dosent have stupid mechanics >_>

[wildsprite]

some people complain, others bring up concerns, but there is something that feels different now than when the cap was still lvl 75, it actually feels like the devs are really listening to us now rather than just asking the Japanese players like before, and it feels like they are trying to make FFXI a better game rather than just something to tide us over till FFXIV is fixed, who knows what else they have in store for us, the stuff they announced isn't necessarily the only things they plan to implement, I'm sure there will be some cool surprises along the way, maybe even some of them breath taking

look at it this way:the people developing the game have from what I understood been given someone else in charge that sees the game going in a different direction than before, and when we complained about abyssea unbalancing the game in non abyssea areas they came out and told us they were aware and were working on fixing it, as far as I know they are not finished with it

[Malamasala]

Before elemental siphon, I would have said remove them, not fix them. There's no way to "fix" them without stepping on the toes of the avatars.

Since PUP automatons have not replaced SMN's, I don't think any updates to spirits would have any negative impact on avatars. Possibly you wouldn't be using level 60 IV-spells on avatars at 90, but rather spirits for AM nukes. Not a big difference. And IV-spells on avatars are outdated anyway.


dude, every job has useless abilites and spells >_> just think as spirits like that. you dont see bsts going " AH EM GEEEEE I KANT USE COURIORER KARRY NO MOREZ!!!" its because something better and more useful replaced it >_>

That isn't a good comparison. A more accurate one would be if BST charm didn't work, and you had to level to 20 before getting call beast. And then for 90 levels you have an ability called charm, but it never does anything because SE decided to make all monsters uncharmable.

In this situation you'd have two choices. Pretend charm was never meant to be anything but a bind tool. Or go to forums and complain that Charm should at least be usable the first 20 levels before call beast is ready. And even better yet, be usable up to level 90 for charming wild animals.

The question is... what would you do? Say call beast is fine and ignore Charm, or whine on the forums? I'm the whining type, who do not accept content being added but not used for 10 years.

[MarkovChain]

People complain because abyssea brought more game imbalance than previously. As an exemple, COR, the job that sucked the most at 75 (last on the job choice in 2009 census) because it was only useful for its exp roll became useless. The issue of RDM vs WHM is not important. Cure VI serves no purpose in the "real world", I've done countless of dynamis runs with rdm only as healer sleeper and it's better than whm easliy. Give RDM cure V and they become one of the best (mage) job again. Anyway I'm taking bets on on the 6 most played jobs to be WHM > BLM > RDM > THF > WAR > MNK still , just like in 2009 and just like in 2002. Abyssea failed to balance the game it brought boredom.

[Dallas]

Markov, I've honestly been told that SMN is the second best healer, not RDM, because Light Spirit has always had Cure 5. Sorry, you'll need to complain more.

;)

[wildsprite]

Light Spirit is also costly to keep out MP wise and casts random, therefore no it isn't the second best healer, the second best healer is SCH not RDM, RDM comes in 3rd(along with DNC and BLU) in that respect, SMN is an okay healer from about lv55 to 65, before or after that its not that great, if anyone says SMN is a great healer because of Light Spirit they really need to rethink that, Light Spirit is not a reliable healer

[Selzak]

Post count +1? You win!
Did you lose your hat from that whoosh?

[MarkovChain]

Markov, I've honestly been told that SMN is the second best healer, not RDM, because Light Spirit has always had Cure 5. Sorry, you'll need to complain more.

;)

Do you want to take bets on SMN's position in the census that will come soon ? Noone played it at 75 and there are no more reasons to play it now. Simple. MNK, WHM, brew or bust = the game as of now.

[Kimble]

Census means nothing when it comes to how good a job is. Stop being dumb.

[Luvbunny]

This again, laziness in the developer part, big time. Rdm and Sch could use Cure 5, even Pld - but we know this will not happen anytime soon, no big surprise there. Some of the jobs that are deemed less useful in Abysea events probably will not see much of any updates or enhancements, because that is just how SE rolls. Do the minimal, add useless crap, and do nothing to fix the existing problem. I'd love to be positive and not be so negative, but so far, it's like dreaming rainbows and unicorns...

[Karbuncle]

Census means nothing when it comes to how good a job is. Stop being dumb.

Talk about your mission impossibles, yukyukyuk.

That being said, SMN is a decent healer, But not best due to the randomness of Light Spirit. Even with its low timer, It might waste it on say, Protect or Regen and then someone will get hit by a big TP move, and while you have Cure IV your spirit still has a cool-down timer.

Still, it would likely be WHM > SCH/SMN > RDM. Heck i might put PUP above RDM because it gets Cure IV from the subjob and has an Automaton. Because what does it come down to for raw curing power? All 4 of them have the same spell, Cure IV, i think SMN has access to ~+48% Cure Potency in gear.

Doesn't have Fast cast though like RDM Does, or the SCH ability to boost Cure potency. Its a toss up if you ask me.

As for its MP Cost, Spirits can be reduced to piddly amounts of MP with the right gear today, Even outside Abyssea. inside they can be reduced to nothing, with refresh back (if you have MM Atma).

So while technically yes a SMN could sit back in full healing mode with a Light Spirit by their side and cure. Its random, Just like a WHM Automaton (not completely random though, I dont think Light Spirit casts -Na spells, So its got one up on Automatons :D)

[wildsprite]

MNK, WHM, brew or bust = the game as of now.
that would be in abyssea, personally I don't even like abyssea, I wouldnt even be doing it if I didn't want the empyrean gear

[JackDaniels]

Wow I didn't know people could have such a heated debate over the Summoner class lol.. :x this is kind of amusing.


Did you lose your hat from that whoosh?

Your post pretty much accomplished nothing but increase your post count by one, now two lol. Go troll somewhere else please :P

*Throws more bait*

[Dallas]

Do you want to take bets on SMN's position in the census that will come soon ?

SMN got nerfed lately for being too powerful. That low census number is just popularity, not power.

[Neisan_Quetz]

SMN was too powerful? Since when? Was it back when meteor was absorbed by 1 utsusemei shadow?

[Dallas]

SMN was too powerful? Since when? Was it back when meteor was absorbed by 1 utsusemei shadow?

Did you miss out on the DG fun? Shame.

[Alhanelem]

Wow I didn't know people could have such a heated debate over the Summoner class lol.. :x this is kind of amusing.



Your post pretty much accomplished nothing but increase your post count by one, now two lol. Go troll somewhere else please :P

*Throws more bait*You don't seem to understand how trolling works. Trolling is when YOU say something inflammatory to provoke someone ELSE into posting. The Troll is the one who leaves the bait, not the person responding to it (that would be you). Thus, by throwing bait, you're trying to imitate a troll.

[MarkovChain]

SMN got nerfed lately for being too powerful. That low census number is just popularity, not power.

SMN is so powerful that nobody plays it... okay. 2009 census results


1 White Mage 14.06%
2 Red Mage 13.07%
3 Black Mage 12.50%
4 Thief 8.39%
5 Warrior 7.79%
6 Monk 6.49%
7 Paladin 5.51%
8 Ninja 4.73%
9 Samurai 4.27%
10 Bard 3.01%
11 Dark Knight 2.97%
12 Dragoon 2.73%
13 Dancer 2.67%
14 Blue Mage 2.60%
15 Beastmaster 2.39%
16 Summoner 1.93%
17 Ranger 1.49%
18 Scholar 1.41%
19 Puppetmaster 1.07%
20 Corsair 0.92%


http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/guide/development/census/09/3.html

take your bets. I put money on SCH SMN and COR to be the losing trio.

[Malamasala]

Notice that those numbers are from a poll about which is your favorite job. So this is the distribution of jobs if everyone could come whatever they felt like to exp parties or LS events.

And it is kind of depressing that only 2% wants to play SMN, if they were allowed to. While the actual playing count is more like 0.5% tops.

[Dallas]

2009 was a bad year for SMN. Let's see the post-DG numbers, then talk.

[Neonii]

Well, you are partially right. I get the impression 50% of the people play the job to see Fenrir because they think a wolf is awesome. I can't count all the old stories about new people being saved by Fenrirs and getting obsessed by them.

But I don't think even SE knows why they added (all) spirits. For example Light spirit and Dark spirit are from level 55-60 NMs. The only reason these differ from avatars at all, is that they can be bought on AH after someone gets the scrolls.

And if spirits were intended to be used until you got avatars, at either level 20 or 60, why are they useless?

I think the hard faced truth of spirits is that SE just added them without any plans at all except "Give players something shiny until they get avatars". Like their only purpose was to allow skilling up summoning magic... which had no effects on the job.

Any way you look at it, they've always been a failure that SE should have fixed. They can be happy that SMNs managed to work around it with /WHM and cure 3, else the job would have been more extinct than defending ring.

If this is an obscure reference to my other topic on this forum there is a difference between obsession and interest.
To be obsessed by something means it occupies one's thoughts all the time. To be interested in something means more of curiosity. Fenrir may have sparked my interest in SMN but it is far from an obsession. The summoner who killed a goblin following me on my first walk to Jueno used Carby.
If I am wrong I offer you an apology. However, I felt the need to clear that up.

[MarkovChain]

Notice that those numbers are from a poll about which is your favorite job. So this is the distribution of jobs if everyone could come whatever they felt like to exp parties or LS events.

And it is kind of depressing that only 2% wants to play SMN, if they were allowed to. While the actual playing count is more like 0.5% tops.

Nope it's not a poll it's ingame data of what people used a as main job at a given time. The poll was on the left side and I chose the actual data from the right side. This ranking therefore represents what jobs are the most useful.

[Neisan_Quetz]

The poll and game data have corsair last anyway.

[Sparthos]

Nope it's not a poll it's ingame data of what people used a as main job at a given time. The poll was on the left side and I chose the actual data from the right side. This ranking therefore represents what jobs are the most useful.

So COR is the least useful job in the game.

Yeah...

[MarkovChain]

Correct but maybe you will explain why not. If those jobs were useful maybe people would play them. They took a picture of the jobs distribution at a given time, probably prime. This englobes exp and endgame altogether then. It is representative. You'll never find more cor than blm etc. The system is based on 6 man parties, including alliances that are split into 3x6, so you have to choose 6 jobs out of 20 almost always.

[JackDaniels]

You don't seem to understand how trolling works. Trolling is when YOU say something inflammatory to provoke someone ELSE into posting. The Troll is the one who leaves the bait, not the person responding to it (that would be you). Thus, by throwing bait, you're trying to imitate a troll.

I find that the best way to repel trolls is to confuse them ;)

EDIT: You've also heard of fighting fire with fire I assume lol.

[Dallas]

I find that the best way to repel trolls is to confuse them.

Turn them on each other if you have enough trolls.

[JackDaniels]

Turn them on each other if you have enough trolls.

Now that's using your noggin! Lmao :)

[wildsprite]

hehe yeah watching trolls go at eachother is a bit like watching 2 fires fight eachother, neither can really win but they sure as heck go at it like they can

[Sparthos]

Correct but maybe you will explain why not. If those jobs were useful maybe people would play them. They took a picture of the jobs distribution at a given time, probably prime. This englobes exp and endgame altogether then. It is representative. You'll never find more cor than blm etc. The system is based on 6 man parties, including alliances that are split into 3x6, so you have to choose 6 jobs out of 20 almost always.

You'll never find more COR than BLM because the class is inherently expensive to maintain and was released years after BLM.

Pre-Abyssea, COR was one of the most useful jobs you could use in an alliance setup and worked beautifully alongside a BRD in a party setup. The same will be true post Abyssea as well.

[Supersun]

You also have to keep in mind that those survey numbers include more then just jobs at 75.

Half the reason War, Mnk, Thf, Whm, Blm, and Rdm are at the top of the list is simply because everyone starts as those jobs so every ones lower level alts are included in that poll as well I believe.

[Alhanelem]

if WHM/BLM/RDM are the most played jobs, how come when I try to form a party all I see is WAR WAR MNK MNK SAM NIN NIN SAM WAR MNK DRG?

[Neisan_Quetz]

Healer shortage.

[Alhanelem]

There's no shortage. WHM, according to that (2 year old) census, is the most played job out of them all.

Of course, I suppose there ends up being a percieved shortage, since 2/3 of all WHM are /anon all the time. how ironic that they play a popular job that everyone needs, and subsequently hide themselves from everyone.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Most played doesn't mean most LFP. The only time I even joined a pt on whm was for exp since it wasn't at level cap, after that the only time it sees light of day is because It's needed for a group I've joined while on another job or during lowman because the dbox whm isn't enough/present for w/e reason.

I'd probably /anon myself too if I ever remembered, dealing with random tells is annoying. You don't even need you flag up for people to be hounding you to join their party.

[Soundwave]

Well, you are uninterested in spirits because they don't work. You would have been interested in them, if SE fixed them. You are a bit bizarre, in that something has to first be useful before you complain that it is useless.

that made me chuckle a bit thanks =D

Spirits are not useless we suck the MP out of them and I enjoy it.

however you seem to put me in this world where "if" spirits would good I would use them more often.

Incorrect I will not use spirits as avatars, I want my avatars to be standing in the spot light not spirits. I agree again that they should adjust spirits.....its not that they don't work...before you know my reason just ask, don't assume.:cool:

[dzero]

Why complain about balance?

Because SE made a forum so they could get feedback from players...

[Alhanelem]

Spirits are fine as they are, they have useful-on-the-side abilities. They should never be competing with avatars, because these are what summoner is about.

[Duelle]

Spirits are fine as they are, they have useful-on-the-side abilities. They should never be competing with avatars, because these are what summoner is about.I don't think it's much about competing with avatars rather than them being able to work alongside avatars. At least, I don't think anyone is looking to have spirits replace avatars...

PS: Spirits being useful only because of elemental syphon is, much like a lot of things in XI, a dumb gimmick that shouldn't be a defining or justifying factor.

[Alhanelem]

I don't think it's much about competing with avatars rather than them being able to work alongside avatars. At least, I don't think anyone is looking to have spirits replace avatars...But that's what making them good in any way other than another sideways use will do. Either they won't be good enough and will never be used (outside of what we already use them for), or they will be so good that they will get used more than avatars.

[Airget]

I would just say hold your breath til they release the roadmap they mentioned about job adjustements. It did sound like they were gonna give us a sneak peak of how they plan on changing each job and working on making it all balanced. It be nice if it's something they show after the bonanza marble purchase closes or even today. I've been curious about the road map ever since they mentioned it at the start of the month and it just makes me wonder what ideas they have in mind for each job.

[Yarly]

Why complain about balance?

Because SE made a forum so they could get feedback from players...

False, SE made this forum because people asked for it, in other forums. Oh wait, how does that work? PARADOX!

Because according to most of the people posting here, SE only reads and takes opinions from these forums (which is far from the truth)

[dzero]

False, SE made this forum because people asked for it, in other forums. Oh wait, how does that work? PARADOX!

Because according to most of the people posting here, SE only reads and takes opinions from these forums (which is far from the truth)

I'm sorry, "Because SE made a forum so that they could get feedback from players, provide quick responses and directly interact with the community".

I do agree that the current state of things is set out for an unfinished level cap rise. However, arguing for balance for the first 90 levels probably isn't a bad idea.

[MarkovChain]

if WHM/BLM/RDM are the most played jobs, how come when I try to form a party all I see is WAR WAR MNK MNK SAM NIN NIN SAM WAR MNK DRG?
Because all of them were already invited. Welcome to ffxi and enjoy your seeking on melees.

[MarkovChain]

You'll never find more COR than BLM because the class is inherently expensive to maintain and was released years after BLM.

Pre-Abyssea, COR was one of the most useful jobs you could use in an alliance setup and worked beautifully alongside a BRD in a party setup. The same will be true post Abyssea as well.

Lolz. Pup is more expensive than cor just saying. Rdm too. Stop trying to find excuses. Seeing as only einherjar was done in alliances at 75, and after considering how crappy the rewards were, you understand why cor is so bad.

[Kimble]

No, PUP and RDM are a one time investment on attachments and Spells. After you make that investment, its done. COR is pricey to keep up on bullet and card cost, if you actually use COR currently and get DD bullets.

I wouldnt take "MarkovChain" aka Pchan seriously, he was the guy that said BRD was useless at 75 esp for Salvage.

[Sparthos]

Lolz. Pup is more expensive than cor just saying. Rdm too. Stop trying to find excuses. Seeing as only einherjar was done in alliances at 75, and after considering how crappy the rewards were, you understand why cor is so bad.

PUP pays one time for attachments and some cheap oils.
COR pays continuously for consumable cards, ammo and once for rolls.

Steel Bullets are currently 22k/stack at the lowpoint in desirability for COR today. 2 years ago, that price was more like 30k+/stack. Even if you cheap'd it, NQ bullets have always been around 9-14k/stack.

I won't even bring up Oberon's.

Elemental Cards are about 4-5k/stack from the NPC but are more commonly on the AH for around double that.

Good to know you haven't changed one bit and can't even tell the difference between continuous operating costs and upfront startup costs.

Corsair as a job is useful as far as FFXI goes. It provides buffs, it offers debuff/damage utility through Quick Draw and it can offer ranged damage while doing all this.

It's the mage's Bard.

[MarkovChain]

Goddammit I'm paying 75k for a stack of red curry buns and you complain about a stack that costs 20k at a time where npcing absolutely everything gives money and 20k of today is 2k of yesterday? I think you are really trying to find excuses. You can play cor without card who cares ; most melees or mages do not use food either. The truth is that using a bullet on cor serves no purpose you are here for rolls or else a melee or a mage is doing the job 10 times better. The truth is that putting a cor in the party increases the farming speed by zero and that why nobody wants them before whm blm mnk war nin brd. Because having all of haste, marches, avatars favors, cor rolls, enspells serves no purpose when the best way to farm in a party of 6 is to brew in stacks of 12. Because nothing is "zerked" when you spent most of your time with your back turned until it "procs". After seeing what they did to dynamis (moar procs) I have no hope in cor ever becoming useful.

[Malamasala]

But that's what making them good in any way other than another sideways use will do. Either they won't be good enough and will never be used (outside of what we already use them for), or they will be so good that they will get used more than avatars.

I don't think you thought that through. If something being better than something else means it replaces it, why does more than one melee job still exist?

People are silly, and pick jobs based on what they like. Same would be with spirits and avatars. People would use the ones they liked the most. Us versatile players would use both, because we like to mix our play styles.

Besides, there are already different content for different pets.

- Spirits: Fast nuking on mobs that do not AOE too much, and have no absorb damage.
- Avatars: Controlled damage, great on absorb monsters or AOE stun/silence monsters. Extra good against magic resistant. Allows MBing for extra damage.

We just miss that actual "fast nuking" part on spirits. Fix that and suddenly we are a strategic job, instead of a "toss more predator claws at it" job.

[Sparthos]

Goddammit I'm paying 75k for a stack of red curry buns and you complain about a stack that costs 20k at a time where npcing absolutely everything gives money and 20k of today is 2k of yesterday?

2 years ago when that census came out, you weren't eating Red Curry Buns because up until Abyssea only a handful of people would even touch Red Curry when Colibri were more than happy to take it away from you.

In '09 COR was expensive to maintain relative to other classes like dirt cheap BRD, dirt cheap SAM and other popular classes of the day. For the average player, why pick up a job with financial burdens when BRD plays close enough to it?

This doesn't mean COR isn't a good class.
It means people rather take the path of least resistance.
Surprise, Surprise.

Corsair in 2011 isn't played because Abyssea has completely undercut the power of buffs. When BRD is in the toilet, its obvious the more expensive BRD-variant will also be in the toilet.


I think you are really trying to find excuses. You can play cor without card who cares ; most melees or mages do not use food either. The truth is that using a bullet on cor serves no purpose you are here for rolls or else a melee or a mage is doing the job 10 times better. The truth is that putting a cor in the party increases the farming speed by zero and that why nobody wants them before whm blm mnk war nin brd. Because having all of haste, marches, avatars favors, cor rolls, enspells serves no purpose when the best way to farm in a party of 6 is to brew in stacks of 12. Because nothing is "zerked" when you spent most of your time with your back turned until it "procs". After seeing what they did to dynamis (moar procs) I have no hope in cor ever becoming useful.

Except I was never talking about Corsair in today's FFXI up until my commentary above.

[Kimble]

If you dont quick draw on COR you're are pretty useless. Armaggddon changed COR DD for much better. Guess what? COR uses food as well so add that to even more costs.

Sorry Gimpchan, COR was good at 75, and is still good at 90, even for things outside of abyssea. COR rips Voidwatch.

[Yarly]

Everyone knows once SMN gets to use spirits better they're just going to raep the entire game. Better level that SMN up guys!

[Alhanelem]

spirits sucked when SMN was new, they suck now, and they'll suck forever. Forget about them, just steal their MP and move on.

[MarkovChain]

My bad on COR it managed to beat PUP this year lolz. Seems I was correct with the 6 winners and the 3 losing jobs too. And to kimble bard lost like 6 places so yeah completely useless.

[Kimble]

Well according to your cenus, Formless Strikes and Invigorate are the 2 best Group 2 merits for mnk.

[Kimble]

Oh and I guess the Sand Sweeper is the 2nd hardest mob in the game since it has the 2nd highest rate of KOing a player.

[MarkovChain]

All monk merits II suck you have to choose. Inbefore penance is useful. I don't see "a hardest mob in the game ranking".

[Kimble]

So you're saying, slow a mobs rate of TP gain is uselss? Remember, the whole game isnt Abyssea and even INSIDE abyssea, its useful to slow a rate of tp gain a mob gets.

But I forget, Pchans world is just the one friend that can stand him and his whm mule.

[MarkovChain]

Yes mobs TP gain is useless, cure VI etc. Not to mention that 98% of the crap dies before getting TP and the other 2% is basically bewed. Only BG noobs try to min/max abyssea right now.

[Kimble]

Im pretty sure most +2 and empy weapon NMs TP a few times before they die....

[Olor]

Do you want to take bets on SMN's position in the census that will come soon ? Noone played it at 75 and there are no more reasons to play it now. Simple. MNK, WHM, brew or bust = the game as of now.


I love that SMN actually increased lol

[Alhanelem]

I love that SMN actually increased lol
I know...

We've all been talking about how bad summoner is lately, and how PUP has gotten better, but what a rank reversal.

That said, both jobs actually have a higher percentage- It's the decrease in the percentages for the top values- e.g. the number of people on each job is more balanced than before.

Wasn't the #1 spot like 14% last year, and the 20th spot just over 1%? As SE noted, the range between the most and least used jobs has decreased significantly.

[MarkovChain]

I love that SMN actually increased lol

It's 10th and there are 20 jobs. Still far from being useful.

[Malamasala]

It's 10th and there are 20 jobs. Still far from being useful.

The world isn't black or white. The job is less useful than others in a party situation, and very useful for solo or zerg strategies. Apparently we do a lot of solo and zerg these days, for getting to 10th place. In parties we are still below PUP in popularity.

[MarkovChain]

No you don't do any kind of zerg nowadays, you spend your time procing, not killing. If I was going to solo something It would be either BLM or RDM for yellow !! or ninjar for red !!! or <insert staff job> for brew.

[Kimble]

The whole game isnt Abyssea.

[MarkovChain]

Because you don't spend your time procing outside too.

[Kimble]

Well if you want to talk about procing IE, Dynamis and Voidwatch, guess what? Those use JA and Magic from all jobs so your point is moot in those instances.