Character name can't be hidden. [Archive]

GlobalVariable

06-24-2011, 11:51 AM

I've already seen people from this forum trash talk on the user profile page of another site when the person here had used their in game name here. For some people displaying their in game name would be a real problem.

I would bet on this being an attempt at preventing sock puppetry or increasing accountability thinking people won't risk their in game reputations. Which I also think would be silly, since moderation alone should be handling problem posts/posters and if it isn't they need to have a look at their moderation itself.

I suppose one could choose to not use the forums anymore if they don't display anything if you don't link one, if it's a problem and you can't use a mule. But what real tangible benefit is forcing the use this feature anyway?

I'll be concerned myself if they displayed all my character names or otherwise prevent me from using a mule as my linked character. I was always under the impression this sort of thing would be optional if only for privacy reasons. I've been cyberstalked before so Ive been made a bit paranoid of connecting any of my screen names even when no real life info is attached. That person got information about me god knows how so I figure the fewer connections the better @.@

My current understanding of what I read in the announcement is just one character linked and displayed, so a mule should work.

Raxiaz

06-24-2011, 01:32 PM

I made a slight comment in Port Jeuno /sh today, and Kimble I think it was asked if I was the same Raxiaz from the official forums. Or maybe it was Khajit. I get messed up with K's.

I have no problem with this linkage business. There's nothing I would say here that I wouldn't say in-game, and vice-versa.

Runespider

06-24-2011, 03:06 PM

Alhanelem

06-24-2011, 03:21 PM

People will use level 1 mules, waste of time completely. What a stupid idea.

If this is to try stop trolling, people don't care about trolling forums. Most of the worst trolls I knew from other sites openly stated who they were and reveled in the notoriety of it.
It's not a waste of time. If you want people to see your information, you'll know it's real, because it won't be level one jobs. And anyone on your server is going to recognize you anyway. Frankly I'm suprised that this wasn't available from the start.

Runespider

06-24-2011, 03:29 PM

Crawlerbasher

06-24-2011, 03:30 PM

I have nothing to be a shamed about when it comes to having my chacter linked.

Kraggy

06-24-2011, 03:41 PM

I read no where that the character linking was manditory.

We would like to announce a new function enabling players to link character data to their forum profiles. This feature will go live as part of the FINAL FANTASY XI Forum maintenance scheduled for June 29, 2011.

At present, players are required to use a Square Enix ID when logging into the forums. Characters on the PlayOnline ID associated with this Square Enix ID will now be displayed in forum profiles. Players with more than one character registered to their account may select which character to link.

After logging into the forums following the maintenance, players will be taken to the Profile Settings screen and asked to choose an active character. Forum posts cannot be made until a character has been selected.

Forum profiles will now display the following:
・Character name
・World name
・Up to three jobs and levels of a player's choosing
* The above information cannot be hidden.

Players will retain forum handles.
Highlighted the bit you obviously missed.

Kraggy

06-24-2011, 03:52 PM

What is the reason for this? If it's to try to make people play nice by linking their Forum name to their character all that will happen is that people will select a level 1 mule.
^ This.

I'm not one of those nuts who prattle on about 'privacy' when systems like WOW's Armory or LoTRO'S MyLoTRO were introduced, however there are some good reasons why people may not want to identify their in-game selves on forums, forcing this is pointless, for the simple reason you note.

BorkBorkBork

06-24-2011, 04:15 PM

I stand on this is silly side of the topic. At the very least you should have the option of keeping your info private. Most forums have an option of what kind of information you display to people not on your friends list. I believe the linkshell community has this option.

Tsukino_Kaji

06-24-2011, 04:17 PM

Character info is not personal info. Perhaps people should take it upon themselves to be more acountable about what they say and/or how they act on the forum.

Atomic_Skull

06-24-2011, 04:19 PM

Relevant:

http://www.thenoobcomic.com/index.php?pos=378

Atomic_Skull

06-24-2011, 04:26 PM

Character info is not personal info. Perhaps people should take it upon themselves to be more acountable about what they say and/or how they act on the forum.

It is when it could possibly lead back to your IRL info. which it could if someone has a blog or webpage somwhere with their real name along with their character's name and server.

Thankfully many years on 4chan have taught me the importance of never ever EVER putting your IRL info on the internet. That's why I refuse to use social networking sites. It's just asking for trouble.

GlobalVariable

06-24-2011, 04:32 PM

Already with the implications people not all for it are ashamed or have something to hide or want to not be accountable. Cute. I thought we might at least make it to a 3rd page 1st.

Accountability by linking two imaginary names together is laughable at best.

lolreputation. The biggest trolls are proud of what they already get away with here (and in game to) and most make no attempt to hide their in game name.

Edit:

It is when it could possibly lead back to your IRL info. which it could if someone has a blog or webpage somwhere with their real name along with their character's name and server.Yeah this right here is why I completely understand not wanting to use this feature. Its nice for those of us who do, but it shouldn't be forced. Also why I don't use my RL name or in my game name *anywhere* that I don't have to.

Several years of being stalked taught me not to do that...

Karbuncle

06-24-2011, 04:39 PM

My Game name is the same as my Forum name so yah, Doesn't effect me much. However, it is kind of silly.

At the same time, to me it just seems like this will stop some people from making an ass of themselves because now their anonymity is gone. (sure won't work on everyone because of mules etc as described here)

Unless you're embarrassed by your own posts or ashamed of yourself on these forums, I don't see a problem. I've never hid my in-game name, and i have yet to receive 1 single in-game negative tell since i began posting on forums. I have received a few positive ones though, So that shouldn't be an issue.

Most people are smart enough to not randomly send harassing tells to people in game what with harassment being again the ToS

Tsukino_Kaji

06-24-2011, 04:44 PM

I for one welcome the inpending accountability if not for anything more then the entertainment value that will insue.

Tagrineth

06-24-2011, 05:00 PM

Anyone opposed to this clearly has something to hide.

Tsukino_Kaji

06-24-2011, 05:04 PM

Anyone opposed to this clearly has something to hide.Truth.

Superfluous text.

Runespider

06-24-2011, 05:24 PM

Karbuncle

06-24-2011, 05:49 PM

Ultimately this move will either be useless cause people will use a mule or it will stop people posting, both are stupid and pointless but at least someone is getting paid to implement this useless feature I guess.

I won't be using a mule or stop posting >_>

If people are so afraid of what they say on these forums that they need to be completely anonymous because they're afraid of any consequences? they shouldn't be posting to begin with.

Really, Unless you consistently make yourself look like an idiot i don't see why people care if they know your in-game name or not... Even then I don't think very many people go around harassing people in game over forum posts. I haven't met anyone like that yet...

That kind of action is also against the ToS (as it being a form of harassment). Same as in here if you do it you can get your post deleted.

If knowing in-game name on a forum was going to have any real drastic impact on your game-play,

Dallas

06-24-2011, 05:51 PM

Anyone opposed to this clearly has something to hide.

I've got bigger plans in mind.

GlobalVariable

06-24-2011, 05:54 PM

Anyone opposed to this clearly has something to hide.
Truth.

Superfluous text.More like blatant trolling or a failed attempt at sarcasm.

Karbuncle

06-24-2011, 05:58 PM

Runespider

06-24-2011, 06:05 PM

I won't be using a mule or stop posting >_>

If people are so afraid of what they say on these forums that they need to be completely anonymous because they're afraid of any consequences? they shouldn't be posting to begin with.

Not everyone is the same, I know many posters enjoy being linked to their posts on a forum but that's not everyone. Some people just want to be able to play the game in peace but yet still have a place to express their opinions.

Remember that post a while back about fixing 100pdt pets and all the mouth breathers saying they were going to bother the person that made the topic? Sure it's only a game but many of us play the game as a source of relaxation and want to just play the game without having to worry about being bothered, good or bad from posts made on a forum.

For people that like the link and that already make it obvious who they are for the "fame?" or something this is a non-issue, for people that just want to state their opinions and have their game time totally seperate it will stop them posting. Unless you think that group of people have nothing worthwhile to contribute to this forum and them stopping posting is no loss?

The main thing I don't get is just what the point of it is, if it's purely being done to stop trolls they don't understand trolls at all. The worst ones revel in the fame of it and usually use their ingame name to post with in the first place anyway...hell they probably troll port jeuno as bad as they do here.

What I can see happening is this being applied to eu/us players and jp being exempt, many of them go bat crazy if you as much as examine them still let alone this.

Karbuncle

06-24-2011, 06:11 PM

Not everyone is the same, I know many posters enjoy being linked to their posts on a forum but that's not everyone. Some people just want to be able to play the game in peace but yet still have a place to express their opinions.

Remember that post a while back about fixing 100pdt pets and all the mouth breathers saying they were going to bother the person that made the topic? Sure it's only a game but many of us play the game as a source of relaxation and want to just play the game without having to worry about being bothered, good or bad from posts made on a forum.

For people that like the link and that already make it obvious who they are for the "fame?" or something this is a non-issue, for people that just want to state their opinions and have their game time totally seperate it will stop them posting. Unless you think that group of people have nothing worthwhile to contribute to this forum and them stopping posting is no loss?

The main thing I don't get is just what the point of it is, if it's purely being done to stop trolls they don't understand trolls at all. The worst ones revel in the fame of it and usually use their ingame name to post with in the first place anyway...hell they probably troll port jeuno as bad as they do here.

What I can see happening is this being applied to eu/us players and jp being exempt, many of them go bat crazy if you as much as examine them still let alone this.

Hmmm, You make some fine arguments i admit, I you say them in a coherent manner.

But I think that 1 example you described is literally the only one i can think of in the last ~4 years of foruming i've done. So its a very rare occasion. However i can also bet most of those people who said they were going to do something didn't.

While i agree this entire thing is pointless, I'm not against that idea, I'm just saying its not going to make the world stop. FFXIAH has been doing this for quite some time as is. The people who don't try to hide their name aren't always after "Fame", They simply take responsibility for their actions, good or bad.

Just because a person does not try to hide who they are doesn't mean they're after glory or are cocky or whatever. They simply do not fear their own actions. I personally trust what i say enough to not care rather people know or recognize me in-game from a forum post. Because i try my best to not make myself look like an idiot over and over (though i do fail sometimes).

I'm just trying to say while this change is pointless, i see it having very little negative impact on 99% of the users here. Anyone who's been foruming for more than a week knows what happens on a forum generally stays on a Forum, especially considering harassing someone in -game is against the ToS and most people who post on the forums care enough to not get their accounts banned.

And again i know its only 1 person, But i've been forumming for a long time and have yet to receive a single negative tell because of something i posted (and I'm not a very nice guy sometimes).

Runespider

06-24-2011, 06:46 PM

Well ultimately this will stop some people posting.

I don't like to be forced to do something I see no value in and don't like the idea of, I don't post on FFXIAH for the same reason...and that's not as bad as what this will be.

If there was a reason for it maybe you could accept it but there is none I can see. Why push people away from using the service for no reason, typical Square move sadly though.

Kraggy

06-24-2011, 07:35 PM

Anyone opposed to this clearly has something to hide.
Unoriginal, and as always wrong.

Tagrineth

06-24-2011, 08:38 PM

Unoriginal, and as always wrong.

Originality is overrated.

And why is it wrong?

Oh no, you're going to be identified... on an FFXI message board... by your FFXI account... such a dastardly and horrible concept. how dare they take away your anonymity on this... community-specific exclusive forum. I mean it's not like every single person posting here doesn't have an FFXI account (active or inactive, w/e).

If you don't want your forum posts to be linked to your character's name, that means you either A. deliberately post dumb *** on the forum to rile people up and thus don't want that linked to your character (something to hide), or B. live some freaky double-life of.. I don't even know where I'm going with this but in any case, it's pretty much A.

GlobalVariable

06-24-2011, 08:45 PM

The folks who would troll, they generally like their fame that comes with it. They don't have a reason to hide. They want to push just far enough to have their fun without getting banned and all but brag at how much they get away with. It is truly amazing how much one person can drive a userbase crazy without actually breaking a rule. I can't see there being an impact on that sort of personality. It is the more timid members, or people like me (and I realize my situation is such a tiny statistic) not the aggressive or troll posters who would be shying away from this feature. They aren't embarrassed by those posts, they are proud. So accountability my foot guys.

Ffxiah allows you to use a 2nd account to put the mule on and has options to hide your character stats. You just use the mule account for posting and so long as that the only account you post from, you aren't sock puppeting so site staff is ok with it.

If we can use a mule (so far looks like we can) then so long as they don't display my entire character roster I won't have a problem but I can understand people being concerned about their privacy because of what I went through which also causes the comments saying people have something to hide or are ashamed etc to bother me.

I never did anything wrong and I've learned learned to keep my display names on websites separate and never connect them by saying things like "I'm <name here> over at <website>" as well as never divulge any real life information to anyone who isn't site staff and absolutely required. For example I won't use hulu+ because they display your real life name on your profile where any stranger can click you and see it (you can get away with a fake name on the free hulu, but I'm not giving them my money while they have that policy). Hulu used to display your address also.

I understand how paranoid this all may seem and I'm not saying this feature will cause that sorta thing. I know SE isn't showing anything directly personally identifiable I just want you to understand why I'm uneasy giving even a tiny part of an inch in the direction of any online identities I may have. Before I used to have the same user name everywhere, shared my instant messenger IDs and email in my forum contact details etc. Now, its a safety measure to me just like not using the same password everywhere. One of my 1st posts here was asking to have a separate forum password from my game password.

Going offtopic here but someone mentioned social networking. Advertisers used to have to pay good money for that kind of information and stalkers had to work for it. Now its all there being given away to anyone that can view twitter or facebook. You can literally see some people telling the world where they are at and what they are doing daily sometimes with multiple updates per hour. Who needs surveillance, just check their twitter page...Most people are simply not concerned with their online privacy lately.

Seriha

06-25-2011, 12:28 AM

Privacy toggle sils vous plait.

Been stalked, have had friends stalked, and basically don't wish any of that on anyone. Even as just a stepping stone for in-game harassment, the best I've ever seen the GMs put out was to blacklist the offender, who'd then just make a new mule to page spam or follow you around if persistent enough, and of course just get told the same if you made another call about it.

RAIST

06-25-2011, 02:34 AM

FFXIAH has been doing this for years now, and it really has no direct impact on your gaming experience. People really do not care about posts on the forum that much. Hell only a very small portion of the FFXI Community even uses forums.

I don't think this will cause as much of a problem as people think is all.

Actually, we think either the information displayed on FFXIAH or the LS site likely made people stronger targets for hacking years back. I only displayed my info in two places back before I lost all my AH-able BLM gears--FFXIAH and SE's LS site. I had the Admins dump my info from their site and pulled everything off of SE's while they tried to restore my account. It's also why I stopped browsing on my computer, just the laptop.

I don't even like the fact we have to link our game accounts and use those credential to post on the forum in the first place. It opens up an attack vector for people to gather partial login information again, just like what was happening with the ad banners on other sites a while back. Now they will make us display a portion of that character information as well, which may just make some players more attractive targets--especially those who don't have a low level alternate to link.

Zumi

06-25-2011, 03:47 AM

People will just use level 1 mules to link themselves on the forum if all they intend to do is troll, the same thing happens on the WoW forums. People hide behind their level 1 alts to troll the forums all day long.

Dallas

06-25-2011, 05:36 AM

Everyone who thinks this is a good idea needs to put their home address on an index card and affix it to every dollar they give to a homeless person.

Karbuncle

06-25-2011, 06:05 AM

Actually, we think either the information displayed on FFXIAH or the LS site likely made people stronger targets for hacking years back. I only displayed my info in two places back before I lost all my AH-able BLM gears--FFXIAH and SE's LS site. I had the Admins dump my info from their site and pulled everything off of SE's while they tried to restore my account. It's also why I stopped browsing on my computer, just the laptop.

Then I think you're thinking wrong. I really must ask for proof that Linking your FFXI Account to FFXIAH makes you more likely to be hacked. I'm really don't know much about hacking, but to my latest understanding the RMT weren't "Chosing" who they hack. Their hacking involved placing a virus on a computer and using it to get information (for the most part...), When RMT did hacks years back they just virus'd a bunch of FFXI websites and hoped to get hits, they just blindly try to hack people, they can't "Target" individuals, thats now how their program worked.

Unless of course you go around handing out all your computers information/IP Address wherever you go.

The only reason people get hacked is because they don't protect themselves. it has 0 to do with how "known" their character is. Back when RMT were hacking they hacked without caring who they were hacking. They hacked who they could (basically anyone without protection). Of course I won't deny if you piss off the wrong people your account specifically could be targeted, but at the same time, I've only witnessed this a few times, and its always been over something in game.

Players who own a Token, use protective tools like NoScript, Addblock, etc to browse safely on forums will have very very little to worry about, as it will be too much trouble for the average hacker to bother with. with a Token you're really only in danger of a real-time hack, which only happens if you absolutely take no precautions when browsing the internet.

And really, If you don't own a Token and use common internet virus protection programs, you have no right to complain about the "insecurities" these will (not) bring. Because you're not even taking basic steps to protect your account.

Everyone who thinks this is a good idea needs to put their home address on an index card and affix it to every dollar they give to a homeless person.

I'm sorry but that is the most misused horrible comparison i have ever seen used on a forum. This "Update" is more akin to handing them a Dollar saying "From Dave". Your FFXIAH isn't anything remotely related to the level of personal information as a home address, more like your name, Your first name.

Your Playonline ID would be like giving them your Home Address, and your Password would be the keys to the house.

You're at no greater risk of being hacked from linking your account to here at all. Want to know why? Every time you log in you enter your SE ID/Password, These are linked to your accounts. If they wanted to hack you, guess what? They already have the information they need.

Dallas

06-25-2011, 06:15 AM

Point tally: I knew 2 homeless guys (one was killed last year), I still haven't wanted to know anyone who posts on FFXI forums.

Let's not keep in touch.

Karbuncle

06-25-2011, 06:16 AM

Point tally: I knew 2 homeless guys (one was killed last year), I still haven't wanted to know anyone who posts on FFXI forums.

Let's not keep in touch.

I can see why you might be worried if people know your in game name. You're incredibly arrogant and your posts make no sense.

RAIST

06-25-2011, 06:26 AM

Well, it was highly suspicious that only my BLM gears were stolen when I logged out on WHM, and my FFXIAH profile hadn't been updated to reflect that change the next moring and my toon had been moved. They didn't touch my SH +1 and such...it was all still in my mogsafe....with my other 6 HQ staves and such, which had been swiped. Didn't even take the Royal Cloak that was in my inventory, but they took my black cloak that was in the safe also. It had the appearence of them seeing specific gear they wanted and that's all they took. Whether they saw that before hand, or just when they logged on during the 6 hours I was logged off can be debated. Regardless....showing that info can simply lead to more problems than it may help. Thankfully, this sytem won't be going so far to show gears and such, but it might evolve into that eventually--who knows. I'm simply not confortable with having no say in showing any of my character's information. It's also why I contacted the admins and had them purge my info from the data base after I unlinked from the LS site. Eventually, old data got restored when the site had a meltdown and they had to extract old data to recover it so it has ancient stats showing.

Byrth

06-25-2011, 06:32 AM

The basic idea is that this will deter trolling, because everyone will use their legitimate names instead of the very obvious illegitimate names sprinkled throughout the forums. I don't see any legitimate reason to hide your identity, but this won't actually prevent it as long as the trolls have mules.

Dallas

06-25-2011, 06:34 AM

I can see why you might be worried if people know your in game name. You're incredibly arrogant and your posts make no sense.

I'm not worried, I just don't want to know you. You are free to deal with the rejection however you see fit.

Karbuncle

06-25-2011, 06:39 AM

I'm not worried, I just don't want to know you. You are free to deal with the rejection however you see fit.

Oh, I see, You're a troll. You're simply making responses that seem the most stupid in hopes you rouse a negative response from me. Oh, Well. I remember when you first began posting you weren't nearly this stupid. In fact i recall you were quite reasonable.

So my guess is the internet has gotten to you, and you no longer care what people think of you so you're attempting to make everyone hate you.

Its sad to see you go down this hard. Maybe you can get a blog spot with starcade? you both seem to have the same level of arrogance and meaningless hatred.

Well, it was highly suspicious that only my BLM gears were stolen when I logged out on WHM, and my FFXIAH profile hadn't been updated to reflect that change the next moring and my toon had been moved. They didn't touch my SH +1 and such...it was all still in my mogsafe....with my other 6 HQ staves and such, which had been swiped. Didn't even take the Royal Cloak that was in my inventory, but they took my black cloak that was in the safe also. It had the appearence of them seeing specific gear they wanted and that's all they took. Whether they saw that before hand, or just when they logged on during the 6 hours I was logged off can be debated. Regardless....showing that info can simply lead to more problems than it may help. Thankfully, this sytem won't be going so far to show gears and such, but it might evolve into that eventually--who knows. I'm simply not confortable with having no say in showing any of my character's information. It's also why I contacted the admins and had them purge my info from the data base after I unlinked from the LS site. Eventually, old data got restored when the site had a meltdown and they had to extract old data to recover it so it has ancient stats showing.

If someone got on your account to take your stuff they likely would have stolen all they could. I can't explain your situation, but i severely doubt it was because they saw your gear on FFXIAH.

RAIST

06-25-2011, 06:50 AM

That is what is so odd about it... they took over 3mill of stuff out of the safe, but left almost 2 mill behind, some of which was on my character...though it wasn't equipped. And purging my data was a recommendation from SE. They even had me clear my friends list as well. Security software didn't catch any adware/spyware crud on my game system either--it was only caught on my laptop, which is what I used to log into the SE LS sight and hit all the other FFXI stuff. So if they trapped my sign-in info, that is where they likely got it from-my laptop. Which is another reason I don't like having to use my game credentials to access these forums. Maybe they were only looking for specific gear in general, or maybe they already knew that I had a specific set of gears and that's all they took. Who knows.

But this is distracting from the real debate/issue with this move. They are already forcing us to use game credentials to log-in, creating a potential attack vector, and then they are going to force us to publish information identifying our in-game persona. This has the potential to create problems for some users and we should be given the ability to opt out.

Karbuncle

06-25-2011, 06:51 AM

There are very few positives and negatives for this move. I too do not understand why they are doing it.

Only that I think after it happens we'll eventually get over it :(

Dallas

06-25-2011, 07:10 AM

I remember when you first began posting

You have no idea, and that isn't just trolling. The information flows because I automatically assume that no one has any clue what they are talking about.

Karbuncle

06-25-2011, 07:13 AM

You have no idea, and that isn't just trolling. The information flows because I automatically assume that no one has any clue what they are talking about.

On these forums*

What you said really does sound like something he-who-shall-not-be-named does. I assume a certain level of intelligence from the people i talk too (Which is why i assume a lot).

That being said, Letting other people effect your life is never a wise solution, especially when it directly impacts your ability to socially interact with others, online or off.

You're only hurting yourself in that endeavor.

Winrie

06-25-2011, 09:39 AM

GlobalVariable

06-25-2011, 09:45 AM

this is distracting from the real debate/issue with this move. They are already forcing us to use game credentials to log-in, creating a potential attack vector, and then they are going to force us to publish information identifying our in-game persona. This has the potential to create problems for some users and we should be given the ability to opt out.

1234567890

Tsukino_Kaji

06-25-2011, 10:13 AM

Dallas

06-25-2011, 10:34 AM

On these forums*

What you said really does sound like something he-who-shall-not-be-named does. I assume a certain level of intelligence from the people i talk too (Which is why i assume a lot).

That being said, Letting other people effect your life is never a wise solution, especially when it directly impacts your ability to socially interact with others, online or off.

You're only hurting yourself in that endeavor.

You grossly overestimate the impact 6 y.o. arguments have on someone who ignored them when they were generated.

RAIST

06-25-2011, 11:13 AM

Why exactly is this such a big issue with you? no one used ffxiah or this site or any other to rob you or anything to that extent. No one nowadays would bother looking to steal old gear such as you listed. Nor did anything you listed stolen equal to anything close to 1m gil. So im really confused =/

Since you asked, this was a long time ago, a while before tokens were even announced...when a set of HQ staves alone cost a couple million, upwards of 500k for certain ones and they were considered a bargain. It wasn't uncommon to fork out 600K+ just for an acceptable body piece, more for the HQ version. A lot of people got attacked, and it usually resulted in everything being swiped, but for some reason I only had the items specific to one job swiped, and it was the only gear showing on both FFXI and the LS site at the time. SE hinted at the fact that it may have had something to do with my gear being on the sites, and wanted the names of people I added to my friend list recently so they could investigate them, then advised that I clean up my friend list and get my data pulled from the sites.

The suspicious nature of that incident is what has prompted me to be a little more protective of my information, so I shared the story is all. Others have alluded to the fact they have been stalked and such--this kind of fits with that side, it just gives some specific details is all.

Dallas

06-25-2011, 11:21 AM

I'd be suspicious of anyone who doesn't remember life before tokens, Raist. ;)

Daremo

06-25-2011, 01:58 PM

Raxiaz

06-25-2011, 02:09 PM

This is the Internet. You lose your rights to privacy the moment you place one bit of information on it. Every site has a Terms of Service and if you violate that in any regard they have all the right in the world to take the necessary steps of punishment.

Your FFXI character is not yours, it is not your private property, it is not meant to be your private property. Anyone stupid enough to allow critical information to be displayed freely on FFXI is subject to the consequential occurrences that may take place, and I have no pity for them.

You are renting a character from Square Enix, and by posting on these forums you agree to everything they set. If they say you have to link your forum account to at least one character on your account, then you have to do that and are obligated to do so if you intend to continue playing, and posting on these forums. Even if you don't like it, even if you think it's not secure, you need to because SE is making you do so. And they're not violating anything except maybe this new thing called "human rights"; but who pays attention to those anyway?

With that said, I would highly advise a "Privacy" toggle for what information is displayed. Otherwise the QQ will never end.

Tsukino_Kaji

06-25-2011, 02:19 PM

None of this has anything to do what-so-ever with any private information.

Raxiaz

06-25-2011, 02:20 PM

Yes, but people are still sitting here complaining about the issue nonetheless. When it really is no big deal.

Tagrineth

06-25-2011, 02:27 PM

Everyone who thinks this is a good idea needs to put their home address on an index card and affix it to every dollar they give to a homeless person.

lol...

None of this has anything to do what-so-ever with any private information.

Hence what I said earlier about people blatantly having something to hide.

Maybe people from Quetzalcoatl are just more jaded than others in this regard, since we had a server forum for a long time, on which people were actually required to identify their character names.

You know what the only fallout was?

When someone was retarded, we knew who was retarded, and could thus avoid them in-game because... well... they were retarded.

Runespider

06-25-2011, 02:41 PM

With that said, I would highly advise a "Privacy" toggle for what information is displayed. Otherwise the QQ will never end.

nono, you don't seem to understand because you fail to see anything from another persons point of view. You see, just because something fails to bother you does not ring true for everyone else.

To some this is an unnecessary change they don't want to be forced to do, as such they will simply not be forced to do it and stop posting after that date. This assuming they make you use the highest character on the account. As such there will be no "QQ" after the date.

The issue here is if it upsets people and serves no purpose why are any of you arguing for it? Stop trying to bash on people that are saying they are against it just because you don't care one way or the other, if that's the case why post? You aren't a lackey for Square and this isn't your personal crusade for something you want.

These forums already stop a large portion of the playerbase posting here because of the stupid login system, this is just another thing to turn away more posters. For a forum made to link with the playerbase they are sure doing a good job and alienating a large portion of them.

Arlan

06-25-2011, 06:07 PM

Not everyone is the same, I know many posters enjoy being linked to their posts on a forum but that's not everyone. Some people just want to be able to play the game in peace but yet still have a place to express their opinions.

Remember that post a while back about fixing 100pdt pets and all the mouth breathers saying they were going to bother the person that made the topic? Sure it's only a game but many of us play the game as a source of relaxation and want to just play the game without having to worry about being bothered, good or bad from posts made on a forum.

For people that like the link and that already make it obvious who they are for the "fame?" or something this is a non-issue, for people that just want to state their opinions and have their game time totally seperate it will stop them posting. Unless you think that group of people have nothing worthwhile to contribute to this forum and them stopping posting is no loss?

The main thing I don't get is just what the point of it is, if it's purely being done to stop trolls they don't understand trolls at all. The worst ones revel in the fame of it and usually use their ingame name to post with in the first place anyway...hell they probably troll port jeuno as bad as they do here.

What I can see happening is this being applied to eu/us players and jp being exempt, many of them go bat crazy if you as much as examine them still let alone this.

This is Exactly how I "FEEL" actually...
I do not wish people to know my main char name on forums because I do not wish people from these forums to bother me. I just wish to express my opinions and feelings towards the current stats and still be able to play the game in one peace.

Your example about the "fixing 100pdt pets and all the mouth breathers saying they were going to bother the person that made the topic" is one of the main reasons I would NOT like this feature to be made. I may make posts that a lot of people may like and I may make post that some will not like and I do not wish people in game to know my in game name and judge me based on my opinion and expression towards these forums as a gamer in general. I just wish to game in 1 peace while I am able to post here.

I'm not the type of player who wishes everyone to know who I am because I do not like the idea of people trying to stalk me or others for what ever reason there may be or for no reason at all.

That is just how I am.
This needs to be optional in my opinion.

I may discontinue posting on these forums if I feel uncomfortable but only time well tell from here on out.

Daremo

06-25-2011, 06:09 PM

Yes, wanting to control what information about yourself is released into the general public is clearly the hallmark of nefarious intention. Self determination is evil and corporations should should feel free to do what they like with your information, will ye nil ye.

Will this stop trolling? It won't.
Will this open posters to the possibilities of brand new levels of harassment? It will.
That harassment won't develop for everyone, and might not develop for anyone, but it's still a risk without reward.

In fact, this can't stop trolling unless it opens you to harassment. That is the very meaning of the so called accountability this will bring: don't troll lest you be hassled in game, for the club of the mob hangs over your every post. If it's not affecting you in game, how can it stop trolling? The two effects are interdependent, claiming you can have one without the other simply fails as an argument.

So all are to be stripped naked and thrown into the crowd, and we hope only the deserving will be kicked in the nuts... Yeah, right.

Annahya

06-25-2011, 11:29 PM

Everyone who thinks this is a good idea needs to put their home address on an index card and affix it to every dollar they give to a homeless person.

This is one of the most ridiculous leaps of logic I have read in quite some time. Thank you for the laugh.

Ultimately, this information belongs to SE - and if they feel that, overall, the experience is enriched by its implementation then they will put it in place. If a significant number of players leave en masse because of it, then they will hopefully get the message that they were incorrect. It is all a numbers game, really. If it does not affect 97%, negatively impacts 1%, but 2% like it, then the 1% loses.

Has SE stated "why" this is? There have been a lot of assertions regarding the reasoning - and I have not seen an offcial statement by SE explaining such; not saying it doesn't exist, I am just curious if these assertions are more than conjecture.

Personally, I am in the hypothetical 97% (or whatever % you want to arbitrarily assign to those who don't care), but I understand that others could feel differently.

And they're not violating anything except maybe this new thing called "human rights"; but who pays attention to those anyway?

I seriously hope this was sarcasm - the rest of your post was so reasonable...

wildsprite

06-26-2011, 02:12 AM

I personally have nothing to hide, I could care less if people know who I am in game, most of the people who know me know I'm a bit off my rocker, I tend to think outside of the box, pay attention to details a lot of others wouldn't, and I do expect some will disagree with many of my posts, I try then to see their side and keep the arguments civil

Raxiaz

06-26-2011, 04:15 AM

@ Runespider: The issue I want to know is why people are upset over information (that isn't even theirs by law) being displayed on a forum. If it's that big of an issue, start a petition or something for SE to implement a "Profile:Private" feature. There's no sense in arguing against it here, honestly. They're going to do what they want to do with what is rightfully theirs, whether you like it or not.
p.s. I've only ever logged into the forums once, and it never gave me any troubles.

@Arlan: The chances of someone actually stalking you based on what you post on these forums is really low. You have more risk going outside and being stalked than you do posting on the internet. That is of course assuming you're not instigating anybody or acting questionable on the forums. If you're a regular, average person... no one would have interest in you.

That's how I view it. I understand your position and I wish I could be empathetic, but I just don't think in that regard really. I don't care if people know about my pixels. I would like to draw the line at any RL info, which I know for a fact can't be easy to ascertain from information gained from an official forum site. But pixel information? People /telling you on the forums? Who cares if they don't agree with you? /blacklist and move on, and /blacklist again. No human has the attention span to repeatedly recreate characters just to annoy someone else. Same thing in RL applies on the Internet, except it's a lot easier: ignore those who don't like you, and only pay any attention to those who care about you.

"There are four kinds of people in this world: people who like you for the right reasons, people who like you for the wrong reasons, people who dislike you for the wrong reasons, and people who dislike you for the right reasons. The last category is the one you should worry about."

@Annahya: Yes, that was sarcasm, lol.

Greatguardian

06-26-2011, 04:20 AM

Pretty much everyone who these boards consider a "Flamer" or "Troll" posts with their real in-game name anyways. Not because anyone's "proud of flaming", but because people believe in accountability. People have always been more than welcome to have me put my money where my mouth is, personally. I'm the only Greatguardian on any server (FFXIAH returns Cerberus and Bahamut only because I was keylogged sometime in '08). This doesn't really change anything for me.

I'm more interested in seeing who people like Dallas and Hordecore are.

wildsprite

06-26-2011, 04:23 AM

yeah that is the screwy part, it seems the "Flamer" or the "Troll" wants you to know who they are as if they are daring you to come argue with them in the game or something

yeah many of them believe in accountability but I think some of them are really hoping people will come argue with them in the game

Pretty much everyone who these boards consider a "Flamer" or "Troll" posts with their real in-game name anyways. Not because anyone's "proud of flaming", but because people believe in accountability. People have always been more than welcome to have me put my money where my mouth is, personally. I'm the only Greatguardian on any server (FFXIAH returns Cerberus and Bahamut only because I was keylogged sometime in '08). This doesn't really change anything for me.

I'm more interested in seeing who people like Dallas and Hordecore are.

Greatguardian

06-26-2011, 04:26 AM

yeah that is the screwy part, it seems the "Flamer" or the "Troll" wants you to know who they are as if they are daring you to come argue with them in the game or something

Pardon? Not at all. I could care less about arguing with people. But if I'm going to make some outrageous claim like "I know what I'm doing", or "I can do this, it is not hard", I know that I am held accountable for those claims.

I am not irresponsible enough to run around saying "lol getting Empyreans and AF3+2 is sooper easy u r all gimps w/o them" and then hide my profile because I'm wearing full Aurore. That is the hallmark of lack of accountability.

Edit: Better example. I'm not irresponsible or juvenile enough to call every Summoner on these forums Gimp and then refuse to post any of my gear or publicize my identity.

Tsukino_Kaji

06-26-2011, 04:32 AM

When the time comes, you should totaly list your smn lvl.

Greatguardian

06-26-2011, 04:35 AM

67? Because anyone with half a brain couldn't look me up on FFXIAH and see that? What about it? People have to actually have the job leveled to know how it works now?

News to me.

Protip: I've dualboxed on 90SMNs multiple times for all that it matters.

wildsprite

06-26-2011, 04:35 AM

Pardon? Not at all. I could care less about arguing with people. But if I'm going to make some outrageous claim like "I know what I'm doing", or "I can do this, it is not hard", I know that I am held accountable for those claims.

I am not irresponsible enough to run around saying "lol getting Empyreans and AF3+2 is sooper easy u r all gimps w/o them" and then hide my profile because I'm wearing full Aurore. That is the hallmark of lack of accountability.

Edit: Better example. I'm not irresponsible or juvenile enough to call every Summoner on these forums Gimp and then refuse to post any of my gear or publicize my identity.

oh no I wasn't referring to you directly, I believe you are one of the ones who believe in accountability

and lol my SMN gear is gimp as hell but I still do fairly decent at the job....I really wanna upgrade my callers set but cant do that without help :/

Seriha

06-26-2011, 05:59 AM

Others brought up being stalked, but anyone who's been on the receiving end of that can likely respect having a greater control of what information about themselves, be it real or that of digital avatar, is out there when it comes to offering peace of mind.

Sadly, I lost a friend to the game when she chanced upon meeting the wrong guy. They kind of hit it off at first, but he got clingy. She eventually blew him off, but he'd have nothing of it. Such began a smear campaign of personal harassment from him, his mules (often deleted and recreated), and whatever buddies he could cajole into giving her crap. He had search comments set up, which at the time, I guess wasn't a bannable offense when including a player's name. He'd go to whatever zone she was in as a higher level job and thin out the EXP camps she and her party was participating in (Highest she got was to 58) and occasionally MPKing if it was an option. She'd called the GM on him multiple times. Hell, I even called for her after trying to moderate and him being snappy at me, but all we got was the canned response to just blacklist him. Eventually she just lost the will to log in, and soon after canceled. I tried to get her back after it seemed like he quit, but the damage had been done.

As is, I've received the occasional unsolicited trash talk on my old server simply because I'm one of those kooks who feel RDM + Melee shouldn't be a solo toy. Some might sit here saying they have nothing to hide, people should grow a thicker skin, or whatever, but I see it more as a preventative measure for keeping those with lesser restraint and morals from gaining an avenue to attack people from. I'll never rule out the possibility of accounts themselves being at risk, as such could create a trail of breadcrumbs leading to a blog, linkshell forum, or wherever that someone more tech savvy might be able to extract such info from less secure sources. Could've been a simple old PM to a friend, "Hey, I'm going out of town. Could you log me in for Dynamis if X drops? blahblah" It's happened, and lords no phbb and such has vulnerabilities.

Overall, I'm fine with the mandatory linking of a character for further forum use, but said character's information should have the option of being blocked to all but administrators. And if people can emulate this effect just by picking a mule, there's no point not to.

Tsukino_Kaji

06-26-2011, 06:01 AM

Runespider

06-26-2011, 06:12 AM

I don't understand the arguing about this.

The bad points of forced account linking: Quite a lot of people don't like it.

The good points of forced account linking: is?

You can say it doesn't matter or they are only virtual details that belong to square and that's all fine but ultimately if the positives are non-existent and the negatives are upsetting people why would anyone argue for it?

Greatguardian

06-26-2011, 06:16 AM

Positive #1: Knowing what server Hordecore is on.

Positive #2: Accountability. Even if people side-step it with mules. Better than nothing.

Positive #3: No more sock TearValerin BS.

wildsprite

06-26-2011, 06:17 AM

unfortunately you will always have people argue for something even if it is ultimately negative, I'm not for or against it, but I do understand the negatives and think SE should rethink this idea, ultimately though we all know they wont, they feel it is the best for their system and will till it comes back to bite em in the behind

Greatguardian

06-26-2011, 06:22 AM

Honestly, I don't really see what the big deal is. In-game harassment over forum posts? Yeah. It happens. But not to/from who you think it does. If anything that I've actually seen happen personally, the BG posters here get a lot more random flak from people than anything else since we already post with our in-game names.

But in the end, who cares? Blacklist is awesome. Aside from that, what real life info is going to be garnered from your in-game name anyways? If you have something set up that poorly in the first place, fix it now because anyone on your server or in your linkshell could be paying you a visit already if that's what worries you.

Dallas

06-26-2011, 07:05 AM

Aside from that, what real life info is going to be garnered from your in-game name anyways?

Most people don't deserve to know our fake lives either.

RAIST

06-26-2011, 07:06 AM

how about those who don't have a mule, and aren't comfortable with publishing their info (for whatever reason)? We should have the option whether to display job levels and such, just like with every other forum out there. I usually use the same name (or a variation of it) simply so people who know me can find me when I move to something new.

We already have the capability to show all the information about ourselves we want with our signatures, and most are not showing any of it. What I'm more concerned about is where it will lead. Just how much info will they be forcing us to post eventually?

Raxiaz

06-26-2011, 07:15 AM

Personally, I'd like the following information to be displayed:

1. Job levels.
2. Craft levels.
3. Mission status.
4. Quest status.

Make it easier to find people for grouping for certain missions/quests, and for crafting purposes. A lot more convenient than just sitting in Port Jeuno for an hour hitting the same macro (if you're smart) or space bar + up arrow, enter... :/

This is assuming of course SE is smart and creates a search feature for these profiles fitting the criteria. But I doubt that will happen. I'm still for this because it does create accountability. Like I said before, I would say nothing on here that I wouldn't say on FFXI. Vice-versa applies too.

To the poster with a stalked friend, it's unfortunate to hear of your loss due to a stupid retard. But that was an entirely different thing - and I won't begin to speculate - but forum posts and relationship troubles are two entirely different things.

All against this need to remember what they were taught in kindergarten. I'm sorry that you've had all this time to forget of liability whilst using the Internet. But it was bound to happen - and it's going to happen on a much grander scale one day, I can assure you.

Tsukino_Kaji

06-26-2011, 07:16 AM

Speaking of which.

Dallas

06-26-2011, 07:24 AM

I'm sorry that you've had all this time to forget of liability whilst using the Internet.

I detect an internet vigilante!

katz

06-26-2011, 07:39 AM

[NA] Linking Character Data to Forum Profiles

We would like to announce a new function enabling players to link character data to their forum profiles. This feature will go live as part of the FINAL FANTASY XI Forum maintenance scheduled for June 28, 2011.

At present, players are required to use a Square Enix ID when logging into the forums. Characters on the PlayOnline ID associated with this Square Enix ID will now be displayed in forum profiles. Players with more than one character registered to their account may select which character to link.

After logging into the forums following the maintenance, players will be taken to the Profile Settings screen and asked to choose an active character. Forum posts cannot be made until a character has been selected.

Forum profiles will now display the following:
- Character name
- World name
- Up to three jobs and levels of a player's choosing
* The above information cannot be hidden.

Players will retain forum handles.

Since this was the original post about the changes being made, there is nothing mentioned about non Na servers. I assume we will still be able to post to the forums without the character links

katz

06-26-2011, 07:44 AM

Karbuncle

06-26-2011, 07:52 AM

Forum profiles will now display the following:
- Character name
- World name
- Up to three jobs and levels of a player's choosing
* The above information cannot be hidden.

Linking personal character information and which server the person is on with their SE account information is a great way of linking hackers information to make it easier to breach security. Yay!!

You're absolutely ignorant if you think hacking works that way at all.

Knowing your Character name, server, and jobs is completely useless and irrelevant information to a hacker. You don't need any of the above to get a Playonline ID or Password.

Furthermore you already log in here with your SE ID and Password so, Nothing new there.

You people must really be new to the internet if you think something like this is going to open floodgates to mass hacking.

Edit: And really, "Personal" Character information? I've been over this. If we're going to assume this is real life information, it would be like saying

*Your first name
*The Country you live in
*Favorite Color

None of these make you more susceptible to hacking. because its vague crap that no hacker needs to get your information.

the only way you're going to get targeted for a hack is if you really really P*ss off the wrong person and they go after you every way they can. Even then, Taking simple steps to protect yourself like the Security Token, and simple Internet programs (NoScript, AdBlock) help.

GlobalVariable

06-26-2011, 07:53 AM

Positive #1: Knowing what server Hordecore is on. Why does it matter? If someone's a problem in game his server will already know his character name is a problem. If someone's a problem on the forum people on the forum will already know he is.

Positive #2: Accountability. Even if people side-step it with mules. Better than nothing. Accountable to WHOM? WE already are held accountable for our actions by Square Enix aren't we? If you're arguing for more accountability start by explaining how we aren't accountable right now and why I should throw away some privacy for this particular method. SE certainly knows all our in game names already.

I'm all for accountability but I don't see this increasing accountability at all. If we have problems not being taken care of this won't fix.

Positive #3: No more sock TearValerin BS.I don't even know who/what that is, so no comment.

Linking personal character information and which server the person is on with their SE account information is a great way of linking hackers information to make it easier to breach security. Yay!!Our login credentials are already the same, showing names can't make it any easier to hack you.

katz

06-26-2011, 07:57 AM

You're absolutely ignorant if you think hacking works that way at all.

Knowing your Character name, server, and jobs is completely useless and irrelevant information to a hacker. You don't need any of the above to get a Playonline ID or Password.

Furthermore you already log in here with your SE ID and Password so, Nothing new there.

You people must really be new to the internet if you think something like this is going to open floodgates to mass hacking.

Tell that to Sony playstation........If you give hackers the starting point they will find a way in. I think its actually a good thing to have the information linked but not public. If you want less people to use the forums carry on. you will then end up with a few people making the decisions for the majority who dont care about the forum rules. Sounds just like politics to me. Few loud mouth peoples opinions overriding the majority who dont care less.

Karbuncle

06-26-2011, 08:04 AM

Tell that to Sony playstation........If you give hackers the starting point they will find a way in. I think its actually a good thing to have the information linked but not public. If you want less people to use the forums carry on. you will then end up with a few people making the decisions for the majority who dont care about the forum rules. Sounds just like politics to me. Few loud mouth peoples opinions overriding the majority who dont care less.

No, To completely different situations. I'm sorry..

Your Name, Server, and Jobs are completely irrelevant information for Hackers. They do not need any of the above to hack your account. If you were to get hacked it would not be because of this.

If they wanted you hacked, They wont need your Name, Server, or Jobs. They could do it without.

hence - Irrelevant Information. You will be absolutely no more susceptible to hacking after this update than you are right now, because the only thing being displayed is information hackers DO NOT NEED to hack you. When you log into Playonline do you enter your Character name, Server, and jobs? no.

It is absolutely worthless information to a hacker. Because they don't need it to hack you. They need your Playonline ID, Password, and your SE I.D, The problem is the 1-time Token Password, making it almost impossible to be hacked unless its happening real-time.

Which is even further unlikely if your protect yourself with things like Adblock, Noscript, and safe internet browsing.

So to a Hacker, your Char-Name, Jobs, and Server are useless information, none of it is necessary to hack you.

Edit: Edited for nice-ness.

Selzak

06-26-2011, 08:14 AM

Oh no, how will I be able to make threads about subjects that I have no clue about now!?

wildsprite

06-26-2011, 08:15 AM

Seriha

06-26-2011, 08:23 AM

My concern is more the digital footprints we (unknowingly) leave behind. Someone ambitious enough with a name and server could track down a linkshell forum, from there there might be a thread where people share pictures or other RL information like their job or roughly where they live when it comes to planning good times for LS events. Even an innocuous slip of a first name from someone the person's more intimate with could lead to a clue that would further direct someone to a blog or social networking site where cross-referencing info can help narrow down possibilities. With the existence of sites that attempt to append email addresses to real people, that can also cut down on time needed in investigation.

Is all this possible now? Yes. Is it a guarantee that a poster with Handle Y is using that as their in-game name? No. Are there people who feel "obligated" to preserve some level of "knowledge" or "skill" here and will go to any length to do so? Yeah. It's not too hard to get on their bad side, either, especially when it comes to opinions.

Even so, while the boards might not be the sole instigator of malicious intent, it could later become a point of reference for those digging up dirt on someone. Mules aside, the only option people concerned have with this is to not post, and that's not good business.

Selzak

06-26-2011, 08:28 AM

Is all this possible now? Yes. Is it a guarantee that a poster with Handle Y is using that as their in-game name? No. Are there people who feel "obligated" to preserve some level of "knowledge" or "skill" here and will go to any length to do so? Yeah. It's not too hard to get on their bad side, either, especially when it comes to opinions.

Even so, while the boards might not be the sole instigator of malicious intent, it could later become a point of reference for those digging up dirt on someone. Mules aside, the only option people concerned have with this is to not post, and that's not good business.
Absolutely any information you leave anywhere can become a point of reference for someone digging up dirt on you. There is just nothing significant enough to warrant any fear whatsoever over your virtual character's in-game information being linked to your forum handle. You'd be better off fretting over the fact that you post in language-specific boards and that someone could determine what region you live in that way.

Raxiaz

06-26-2011, 08:30 AM

I can't believe how much exaggeration is going on in this topic...

Byrth

06-26-2011, 08:32 AM

Unless you know and trust everyone on your server (who can see both your in game name and linkshell name), that argument is a chromosome short of normal. You're infinitely more likely to pick up a stalker from your own server, and they already have all the information (and more) that you could get from the system SE is proposing.

Now, with exactly what I've said in mind, try and think about why this information would necessarily not make the system any less secure. Hint: Look at paragraph 1 again, but replace "stalk" with "hack"

You're making public information . . . more public? Don't be idiots. There's essentially no risk involved.

wildsprite

06-26-2011, 08:33 AM

a lot of exaggeration will always happen due to paranoia and it seems we have many who are paranoid if their char info is released it will tell personal information about them, but the truth is it wont, any personal information they are looking for they will need to find some other way

wildsprite

06-26-2011, 08:35 AM

Greatguardian

06-26-2011, 08:45 AM

isnt the point of the /blist command to get rid of unwanted attention such as a stalker?

It can work that way. It doesn't always. People suck. Generally? People are just best off not associating with bottomfeeders anyways. Being male and/or pretending to be male helps too. But those are preventative measures rather than solutions.

Byrth hit the nail on the head though. Your 5,000 person server already has all of this information. Who the hell cares if a few more people have it now?

Seriha

06-26-2011, 08:47 AM

Being on the same server is on some levels more limiting. They won't have access to linkshell/party conversations unless they happen to be in the party/linkshell. Shout wars are one angle, yeah, but that's something I've usually just avoided due to the inane, of unrelated to the game, content being slung around. We're also largely past the days of Kings drama, and while little tiffs inevitably spring up here and there over popping mobs or claim jacking, ego flexing has tapered off significantly. Even then, being on the same server doesn't automatically give them a clue on how any person plays or even when. We're effectively phantoms once we're offline or text scrolls from view.

Not quite the same for boards, where this post and all we've made will remain for however long SE hosts them or google makes a back-up copy. Players don't even have to be on at the same time to pick a fight with one another, and an issue someone dropped weeks back could suddenly be dredged out of necrobump hell just because they thought they were being smart/cute/witty/WINNING!/whatever. I suppose with the average FFXI player being a college male or older these days, the fear of being stalked isn't really there. Regardless, a toggle would not harm while at the same time offering some peace of mind.

GlobalVariable

06-26-2011, 08:51 AM

Excuse me but knowing my in game name was exactly how it began for me (different game, years ago). Blist doesn't do s*** for you when they keep making new characters (vanishing before a GM bothers to make any kind of record) and eventually pretend to be some friend of a friend long enough to get information from someone you know. Not to mention the potential to get trash talked by random strangers who log out before a GM arrives to say "just blist them" yeah, so they can keep talking crap about me and lie about things to everyone else that I can't see to defend myself from, awesome! Oh we want people to be accountable. Sure. Right. Accountable for that omega ring, accountable for that unpopular opinion, accountable for everything but whats actually against the rules that should already be enforced and thus not need a feature that we'll pretend actually increases accountability for bad behavior. /ramblerantoffrustration

Greatguardian

06-26-2011, 08:54 AM

Oh gee. Forums hold people accountable for their actions? You don't say.

Yes. If someone says something really bloody stupid, people are going to be able to dig it up and find it 6 months or 6 years from now.

Solution? Don't be stupid. Be responsible. Keep in mind that everything you say might be remembered forever. Look before you leap and think before you speak. Age-old lessons that everyone here should have learned anyways.

I really can't buy the stalking angle, though. These forums don't even have a bloody PM function. No one is going to start stalking someone because they badmouthed Red Mage while having a female avatar on a forum. If they do? Report their post and they can be potentially banned from the forums / game. Any sort of facebook / real life information that people could garner from the forums was and has already been available to everyone on your server anyways. My personal advice? Don't let things from your online persona link you to your real life any more than you want them to; and always assume that if one person can see it on the internet, everyone can.

Edit: GV, if you care what everyone thinks about you you're not going to have a lot of fun no matter what they do. Do I care that the majority of these forums think I'm a mean-spirited, egotistical, narcissistic son of a biscuit? Nah, not really. I have great friends in game, who I've know for years, and who all know that I'm nice to a fault and fun to hang with. Who cares what rumors some jackhole spreads about me? My friends all know me better. That's all I care about.

GlobalVariable

06-26-2011, 09:02 AM

Edit: GV, if you care what everyone thinks about you you're not going to have a lot of fun no matter what they do. Do I care that the majority of these forums think I'm a mean-spirited, egotistical, narcissistic son of a biscuit? Nah, not really. I have great friends in game, who I've know for years, and who all know that I'm nice to a fault and fun to hang with. Who cares what rumors some jackhole spreads about me? My friends all know me better. That's all I care about.
Yeah thats totally it /rolleyes. If your being accused of crap like nin lotting groups are going to avoid you. But the most trolltastic jerks are proud to show their in game names.
That accountability for bad behavior on forums is in your imagination. I've seen people post screenshots of those they've goaded into crap "for the lols". That kind of person is NOT worried about their rep. And don't even try for the "it must suck to not have friends" crap. Yeah sure they'll all sit in PJ at odd hrs for me to defend my name form joe random slanderer who's PO'd about something I said on a forum and just wanst to hassle me, right, sure.

Greatguardian

06-26-2011, 09:07 AM

Let's see here. I dare say it's impossible to accuse me of ninja-lotting when I don't do things with people I don't know, Bob.

Protip: No one who you'd actually want grouping with you is going to take some retard's unsubstantiated shouts or /tells seriously. I mean that. So what if a few less random full-aurore pickup groups want to deal with you because some tard made up some story about you kicking his puppy and stealing his Rani? Does that really affect you at all?

GlobalVariable

06-26-2011, 09:09 AM

I've seen it happen to others.

You feel safe and so dismiss anyones concerns over this change.

You know whats got me riled up? The idiocy of acting like anyone concerned must have been a bad person/poster/player/stupid. Imagined positive effects are a close 2nd.

This thread should have died pages ago.

Just wanted to add: shout groups are the root of all evil. You can't join shouts without encountering stupid and unfortunately some of us do have to join/use shout groups for some things. Example was crappy but I meant to point out you can't all hassles it by blist. And why is my name Bob now o.O?

Seriha

06-26-2011, 09:16 AM

Accountability is fine, but this doesn't achieve that. Moreover, it's not our job beyond reporting overt offenses (porn/hacks/etc) or the more questionable ones the mods can later judge. If you want the inmates running the asylum approach, just look to Zam. Of course, for the BG regulars, that's just as bad as here.

Greatguardian

06-26-2011, 09:20 AM

Do I feel safe? Definitely.

Should anyone feel vulnerable? I really don't think so, bad player or not. Who is going to take some random guy's word at face value these days? Short answer: No one that you'd want to associate with anyways.

If someone you're grouping with is willing to believe what some random Jeuno shouter says about you, what else do you think they're going to believe later down the road? It's not a matter of avoiding the Jeuno shouter, because there will always, always, always be someone else lining up to take a shot at you no matter what is or isn't on these forums.

What matters is who you're grouping with in the first place. Find people who don't take rumors at face value. Who know you as you, and know that you are innocent until proven guilty. Do you want a girlfriend who will take any stranger's word that you're cheating on her? Hell no. You want a woman who trusts you until her private investigator sends her the pictures.

GlobalVariable

06-26-2011, 09:26 AM

Sorry GG I was starting to direct my irritation where it doesn't belong. Some of my previous points still stand however. As well as just the general "sh** happens" I was aiming for and missed.

RAIST

06-26-2011, 10:50 AM

Here's something interesting. It took me 5-10 minutes to find a player on Carbuncle Server that potentially has 1.25 million worth of auctionable gear for his/her 90 DNC, and was recently trying to move over 1 mill through bazaar. All I needed was two sites--one was SE's. A simple search on name, picked the one from Carbuncle, and it gave me the LS names as well as bazaar info. Went to SE's site, and pulled up the LS, viewed the profile, and saw additional gear that player has for that job. All I needed was name and server.

So, in other words, while name and server alone isn't enough to technically get you hacked--it can very easily help someone narrow down whether you are a valid target if they happen to farm the rest of your login info. I really don't see how forcing us to provide name, server, and job levels is meant to enhance the forums.

As for the token...it is just a heightened method of security, but it is not entirely full-proof. No matter how it is crafted to work, there is a numeric pattern to it. Granted, it may be a complex algorhythm, but it is mathematical in nature and therefore does have a pattern to it. Granted, it can be an insanely difficult thing to crack, but given enough samples on one cipher, someone may eventually be able to crack the pattern. Fortunately, there simply isn't enough of a market to swipe someone's gear for that kind of thing now, so it is likely no one is even bothering with it. If anyone is still farming login info to steal stuff like in the past, they are likely going after people without the tokens. For those people, once they get the sign-on credentials they can very easily track down some details on the characters on that account to determine if it's worth it to monitor when they log out of the game and then get on that account to swipe stuff.

Back to the issue of forcing us to publish character information, it didn't take me but a few minutes to find out a lot of info on this one person--job levels, crafting levels, two samplings of gear equipped for DNC, and how far they've progressed through most all mission tracks except abyssea. But, seeing they have Twilight gear equipped, they've completed Abyssea. I could have gathered that info from a number of places, including just seeing them in game. So this change really serves no purpose other than to identify people who are using a different handle than their FFXI character name. Once that is determined, what purpose does that serve? Gives you the ability to pimp-slap someone because they don't show they have a job leveled to 90 when they post something about that job? Give someone the info they need to track them down in game and harrass them if they don't agree with them? While these may be extreme...it IS a possibility, and there HAVE been people known to do this kind of thing in the past. Try to spin it any way you want, it IS a real possibillity.

Greatguardian

06-26-2011, 10:57 AM

You're really, really reaching. You make the assumption that the RMT/"Hacker" already has someone's login information, and then you say that knowing via FFXIAH that someone has a few million worth of gear is going to make them more likely to use that information?

It's not like the RMT is being backtraced and caught by the FBI when they hack into people's FFXI accounts. They do not need to look you up on FFXIAH to determine whether or not you are a solid target. They can log in, see if there's anything on your account worth a penny, take as much of it as they can grab before you lock it down, and then try to sell off the account if, for some reason, no one locks it in time.

If someone has your login information, they are not going to pass on using it just because they can't see your FFXIAH information. That is all it comes down to in this particular situation. Does this move enhance security? No. Does it inhibit security? No. This change is fundamentally independent of anyone's character security. Besides, so what if someone knows you have a few level 90 jobs? You are creating an identity link between a name on a forum and a name on a server. If you had your information published on FFXIAH, it would be available anyways. If you don't, it will remain unavailable. I cannot tell you how absolutely ridiculous your security argument sounds right now.

Is the security on the site perfect, using our SEID to login? No. Does this change affect that in any way, shape, or form? Absolutely not. It won't be any more or less secure than it was 5 minutes ago. If you don't like your SEID and password being used to log into these forums, don't log into these forums.

Karbuncle

06-26-2011, 11:03 AM

Here's something interesting. It took me 5-10 minutes to find a player on Carbuncle Server that potentially has 1.25 million worth of auctionable gear for his/her 90 DNC, and was recently trying to move over 1 mill through bazaar. All I needed was two sites--one was SE's. A simple search on name, picked the one from Carbuncle, and it gave me the LS names as well as bazaar info. Went to SE's site, and pulled up the LS, viewed the profile, and saw additional gear that player has for that job. All I needed was name and server.

So, in other words, while name and server alone isn't enough to technically get you hacked--it can very easily help someone narrow down whether you are a valid target if they happen to farm the rest of your login info. I really don't see how forcing us to provide name, server, and job levels is meant to enhance the forums.

I think you more or less just proved GG's argument of this just "Making public information, more public". This Information is out there already, its public information.

Think of it this way, if you were going to be targeted by this god-like hacker who could not only target your personal computer with a keylogger/etc, but could get past the Security token, That he couldn't do it without knowing your Char name, Server, or jobs?

I'm only trying to make it clear you're at absolutely no further risk of your account being hacked because of this. every piece of information set to be displayed is 100% worthless to a hacker.

If you're worried he "now knows my in-game name and that makes me more vulnerable!", Honestly, its just wishful thinking. You think a hacker who again, could personally target your PC and log your password is hindered by not knowing your char name? no, he doesn't need it. he could hack you right now if he existed.

Edit: On the "Token" being a heightened security bit yah, i agree. but its a greatly heightened security. its like going from a wooden door to a 10 door hallway with security measures at each door. Its a giant leap. The only real way to hack someone with a Security token is to do it completely in real time. Which again, could only be performed by a good hacker.

That type of hacker does not care about you or your FFXI account as to them its piddly amount of money and not worth their time. The only time you're at risk of this type of hacking is if you really really p*ss off the wrong person. But its probably the same odds as winning the lottery.

RAIST

06-26-2011, 11:21 AM

They don't login while you are logged in, as that sends up red flags. They do it while you are logged off. All I'm saying is if they catch 15 sets of of credentials, then can quickly and easily scratch off the low priority targets--meaning having that info easily available can bump you up the list. It is a possibility, and it is a device that can be used. Whether or not is used is just your personal opinion--the point is there is the potential for it to work against you.

That wasn't something presented as a security argument, it was meant to demonstrate how readily available all this information is already, and to contrast how pointless it is to force people to publish it here. You even admit that if it is not published elsewhere, then it remains unavailable--here, SE is giving us NO CHOICE in the matter IF we want to participate in the forums here. At least on the LS site, you were given the OPTION TO HIDE THAT INFORMATION. Here, they are not giving us a choice. THAT is the problem. We have the choice to hide our information everywhere else, but not here.

Also, forcing everyone to one central point now does in fact present a security problem. Now, there will be one unified means to login to multiple things. Everyone is being shuffled through one gateway, using one set of credentials--which means there are fewer places that need to be monitored. You will be logging in more often to that single gateway if you are active in those multiple activities, meaning more samples being offered through one single gateway now. This can potentially put those without security tokens at greater risk of compromise simply because there will now be one single point of failure instead of multiple ones, and that single point will be passing that same information more often.

But, that was a sideline argument that somehow got started up about whether it effects security or not. The main points of the debate is that up until this move, we always had a CHOICE in what information was displayed. Various people will have various reasons for displaying or hiding it--the simple fact remains that SE themselves provides us a choice to hide our info on one of their sites, and then they are forcing us to display it here, with no reasonable justification for demanding that it be published.

It really serves no purpose to unite the community or encourage participation, and may potentially create some pockets of division or discourage participation--as evidenced by some saying they will not be logging into the forums after this is implemented.

GlobalVariable

06-26-2011, 11:27 AM

Quit clouding the issue with the hacking nonsense and an example of someone who obviously didn't have their information hidden.
This Information is out there already, its public information.Mine isn't. And btw I get the same "you must have something to hide" drivel about not showing everyone my data on ffxiah and the ls community site.

RAIST

06-26-2011, 11:32 AM

Quit clouding the issue with the hacking nonsense and an example of someone who obviously didn't have their information hidden.Mine isn't.

So, I can't comment on an issue someone else brought up and debated for a while?

In case you didn't notice, I was trying to steer it back towards the real issue.

But, that was a sideline argument that somehow got started up about whether it effects security or not. The main points of the debate is that up until this move, we always had a CHOICE in what information was displayed. Various people will have various reasons for displaying or hiding it--the simple fact remains that SE themselves provides us a choice to hide our info on one of their sites, and then they are forcing us to display it here, with no reasonable justification for demanding that it be published.

It really serves no purpose to unite the community or encourage participation, and may potentially create some pockets of division or discourage participation--as evidenced by some saying they will not be logging into the forums after this is implemented.

GlobalVariable

06-26-2011, 11:35 AM

That wasn't at only you. Clarification: isn't "proof" that it doesn't matter.
I was trying to steer it backAnd not working real well is it.

And folks...We can use a mule. All this stuff we're talking about isn't a prob because you can use a mule. And since you can use a mule there really isn't a reason to not let us have a hide option, but its still no problem right now since we can use a mule. Jeez. 13 pages.

RAIST

06-26-2011, 11:44 AM

Why should someone pay an extra fee each month for something they don't need--even if it is only $1? I've been playing for years and never needed a mule....got 10 jobs to 90 and 6 locked at 51, and currently have like 25 slots free to carry junk on me and I logged out on NIN.

Someone shouldn't need to create and pay for an alt if they don't want to display anything about their main. They should have the option to hide that inormation just like they can elsewhere.

GlobalVariable

06-26-2011, 11:46 AM

Did I not just argue that there is no reason to not have a hide option because of mule use?

RAIST

06-26-2011, 11:48 AM

Did I not just argue that there is no reason to not have a hide option because of mule use?

did I not just mention I have never used a mule and have no need for one? Again, why should someone in the same set up need to pay for an alt if they want to remain private?

GlobalVariable

06-26-2011, 11:49 AM

Facepalm. We're asking for the same option. I used it as a reason for said option. Direct it at SE not me...
Why should someone Hint: I didn't say they should have to. I said they can.

RAIST

06-26-2011, 11:56 AM

Facepalm. We're asking for the same option. I used it as a reason for said option. Direct it at SE not me...

my bad... the wording threw me off... post #113 before sounded more like you were saying there is no need to have a hide option because you have the option to use a mule...caused a knee-jerk reaction to the follow up post.

That seems to be the problem with some of the division here... a lot of the really old players are saying "just use a mule", glossing over the fact that many (especially newer players) may not have one. There are many that have been around a reasonable amount of time, but came late enough to have access to more storage and may never have needed one so never created one in the first place.

GlobalVariable

06-26-2011, 12:02 PM

Likely my fault anyway, a bit distracted atm no time to re-read and I think I skipped part of the middle segment of the thread. I remember the 1st posts had to do with it being silly to require it since we'll use mules, and would also be silly to remove mule use because we'd just stop posting. They are correct.

Dallas

06-26-2011, 12:58 PM

Byrth hit the nail on the head though. Your 5,000 person server already has all of this information. Who the hell cares if a few more people have it now?

You come from BG. You have an entire forum devoted to tracking players you don't like. You use their gear to track them from server to server. Naturally you want access to everyone's information so you can use bullying tactics instead of having to learn how to be civil.

Karbuncle

06-26-2011, 01:16 PM

You come from BG. You have an entire forum devoted to tracking players you don't like. You use their gear to track them from server to server. Naturally you want access to everyone's information so you can use bullying tactics instead of having to learn how to be civil.

BG is not devoted to tracking players they don't like. If you're talking about the "Cross-Server Warning" sub-Section. its not devoted to people BG hates, It tracks people who have performed terrible deeds in their past in an attempt to keep others from falling victim to these players bad deeds.

As they have been shown to repeat said deeds.

Insulting BG in itself simply because you don't enjoy the website is uncivil. the irony is palpable.

Edit: Sorry, On the topic of "People will either use a mule or stop posting".

I wrote this a while back in this thread, But i've been using my In-game name on FFXI related forums and have never been stalked/harassed/etc in Game. The Community as a whole generally does not care about Forums. Very few of the population actually visit/read FFXI Forums.

I'd venture as far to say probably only ~20% of FFXI population regularly read/visit FFXI Forums. Of that % i would say less than 5% of that 20% Will actually insult/harass someone in-game over a forum post.

People might say "Oh, its xxx on the xxx server, lululul" but i bet if you asked anyone who has been "targeted" like that, It probably hasn't effected their in-game play at all. No one on the forums openly act on players in game they recognize from the forum because its harassment, and they care about their characters.

I can see the idea of wanting to remain anonymous if you're afraid people who disagree/don't like you might "Stalk" you, but they wont, if they do blist and GM them for harassment, they're obviously idiots.

Edit2: And all these people talking about "finally knowing who the char behind the forumer is" aren't going to go around harassing people. They just want to know who it is. They don't care about you in game. Its literally just knowledge they seek.

I personally wouldn't care either way. All i need to know about you people is in your posts. That information alone tells me rather you're stupid or not. I don't need to know anything else.

Atomic_Skull

06-26-2011, 02:43 PM

Karbuncle

06-26-2011, 02:46 PM

The only thing this will achieve is to annoy a lot of users. Any imagined "positive" effect will be defeated by those same users selecting a level 1 mule. Some may just stop posting at all.

So all it will achieve is to annoy a bunch of people and drive some people away. So why waste time on this at all?

I should note i'm not "for" this idea. i agree its entirely pointless. It accomplishes nothing other than us removing a little anonymity from the boards.

Just that its not going to black out the sun and destroy the forums >__>. I don't think its negatives are devastating, but i also don't see a lot of positives.

My guess would be they instated this just so people might be able to know eachother a little more, but its mandatory, so theres something else behind it if you ask me.

Runespider

06-26-2011, 03:58 PM

And folks...We can use a mule. All this stuff we're talking about isn't a prob because you can use a mule. And since you can use a mule there really isn't a reason to not let us have a hide option, but its still no problem right now since we can use a mule. Jeez. 13 pages.

If you were to be a real cynic you could suggest the reason for forced accountlinking and the probablility of using a mule would bea good way to get a few extra $1 a month.

Alhanelem

06-26-2011, 04:44 PM

BG is not devoted to tracking players they don't like. If you're talking about the "Cross-Server Warning" sub-Section. its not devoted to people BG hates, It tracks people who have performed terrible deeds in their past in an attempt to keep others from falling victim to these players bad deeds.

As they have been shown to repeat said deeds. whether you intend for it to be or not, you're effectively maintaining a s**tlist of bad people. It's not to say they don't deserve it, only that it's not really necessary. Also, it's subjective how "terrible" the deed was, and people can lie about others to defame them. And the internet in general finds a lie easier to accept than the truth. Even if it's well-intentioned, it can go wrong.

Side note: It's only 7 pages here. You can increase the number of posts per page, I have it set to 20.

Karbuncle

06-26-2011, 04:52 PM

whether you intend for it to be or not, you're effectively maintaining a s**tlist of bad people. It's not to say they don't deserve it, only that it's not really necessary. Also, it's subjective how "terrible" the deed was, and people can lie about others to defame them. And the internet in general finds a lie easier to accept than the truth. Even if it's well-intentioned, it can go wrong.

Those threads are moderated pretty heavily. Only the really bad stuff is even on there anymore. The only one i can think of right now "active" is futchy. (I had to read back through them...)

Dallas made it sound more like "The entire forum is dedicated to finding people and harassing them" and this is completely untrue. I know im wasting my time explaining this becuase people who hate BG usually hate it to such a unrealistic extreme i have no hope of convincing them otherwise, but i'll still try.

I agree its "unnecessary" but i also see absolutely NOTHING negative about keeping track of a guy who has f*cked multiple people over on multiple servers time and time over and has shown he is WILLING and ready to continue doing it as much as possible.

It isn't FFXIAH-level "Player Warnings" the thread in the BG Cross-Server Warnings are again, heavily moderated, You can't really go in there and say "XX guy did YY" and get away with it without proof. it will either be locked or nuked.

Edit: Plus most people really don't care about the Player Warning Section... So it does seem almost for naught. I'm sure if you asked a lot of players today none of them would know who Futchy Was.

Greatguardian

06-26-2011, 04:55 PM

katz

06-26-2011, 05:40 PM

Warnings that don't come with photographic evidence or basically an admission of guilt from the party in question are generally laughed off the boards.

BG just informs its own when people do things worthy of a multi-server warning. It's not a craplist, or a hitlist. It's a compendium of really bad things people have done. It promotes accountability. See? There's that word again.

If you Quartermastered some linkshell's Ridill in 2005, and it got put up on BG, I'm going to know about it when you apply to a linkshell in 2011. And depending on the mood of the recruiter, you will have to explain yourself, or you will be told to get lost.

Urm really......Forums shouldnt be used as a witch hunting mechanism. Most people just play the game to have fun. Those who take it to this level really need to examine why they waste time in the game looking for how bad other people are and a few bad eggs dont break good shells. Its the drama caused by witch hunts that do.

It doesnt matter what we say in this topic if its been decided then thats what we will be getting. Link your chars or get out of the forum simple choice.

Karbuncle

06-26-2011, 06:17 PM

Urm really......Forums shouldnt be used as a witch hunting mechanism. Most people just play the game to have fun. Those who take it to this level really need to examine why they waste time in the game looking for how bad other people are and a few bad eggs dont break good shells. Its the drama caused by witch hunts that do.

It doesnt matter what we say in this topic if its been decided then thats what we will be getting. Link your chars or get out of the forum simple choice.

Nobody "Witch hunts" these people and nobody goes out of their way to harass people who have done nothing wrong. The BG "Warning" Section is really little more than a place where people who have done shameful, shady, or cruel things repeatedly are shown to warn others of their misdeeds. Its not meant to be a halt to their progress, It simply stands as a warning to be cautious with said people as in the past they've done bad things.

Again, Its not to ruin their gaming experience, Its to educate other people so that they can be cautious. I don't think I'm wording this correctly, what i'm trying to say its intention is not to "Witchhunt" these people, Its to educate others of their bad deeds to limit it from happening again.

I also don't think you understand the meaning of the term "Witch Hunt". It stands for an act where, due to paranoia or miseducations, people will hunt large masses of people under false assumptions and remove/kill them for it. Its based off the Salem Witch Trials where even being accused of being a witch was more than likely deadly.

a Player Warning is very far from a "Witch-hunt". They don't seek people out to burn them at the stake. The information rarely leaves that small sub-section. Its nothing more than a tool that can educate people to be cautious of certain players. I hate to repeat myself, but again, Its not meant to be a "DONT PLAY WITH THEM BRO" its more of a "If you're going to play with them, be cautious of this and this"

Byrth

06-26-2011, 10:22 PM

I don't know what's wrong with knowing the history of the people who apply to your linkshell. Do you guys want to remain ignorant of the fact that your friends have quartermastered alliance drops, that your e-gf is a baritone named Barry, or that Joe the Aegis got his Aegis by stealing his LS bank and RMTing what he didn't need?

Maybe ignorance is bliss (especially in the second case), but I'd rather know what to expect before they repeat their offenses. In FFXI, your reputation is the most important form of currency. Threads and systems like BG's player warnings and background checks make sure that this stays true even with the server transfer system. Some people (not from BG, that I know) are so committed to this idea that they made a whole website devoted to tracking a bad player (http://wyred.nu/lolfeiwong/).

Also, if there's no proof of a misdeed or the community judges the offense to be minor, it reflects more poorly on the person who brought the claims than the person they're trying to smear.

Point is, freaking out about less specific information than I could get about you and your account through the Linkshell Community website is a waste of time. If I made a level 1 mule and ran around spamming check on people, I'd collect a heck of a lot more information. Etc.

Daremo

06-27-2011, 01:08 AM

Dozens of people know my real name and address, so I should put both on a giant billboard above a main street, because anyone could find them out, right? No.

Having information accessible to those who might care to search for it and having it advertised for any passer-by to see are not the same thing.

Byrth

06-27-2011, 01:27 AM

Runespider

06-27-2011, 01:34 AM

My guess would be they instated this just so people might be able to know eachother a little more, but its mandatory, so theres something else behind it if you ask me.

God help anyone that says anything bad about Square, GMs or customer service and needs help after they add this.

Daremo

06-27-2011, 02:04 AM

Actually, I have. My phone number is unlisted.

Greatguardian

06-27-2011, 02:23 AM

God help anyone that says anything bad about Square, GMs or customer service and needs help after they add this.

Because... they... don't already have your Square Enix ID and Content IDs linked to your forum account?

Really?

Runespider

06-27-2011, 02:52 AM

Because... they... don't already have your Square Enix ID and Content IDs linked to your forum account?

Really?

Who's to say they can access that information on a whim? tracking out your character names etc, and even if they can I doubt they would bother. However having the name show up right there that is quite another thing. Then that person contacting you asking for help and stating the name that sticks out as being one that p***ed you off? Yeah not quite the same thing.

Greatguardian

06-27-2011, 02:56 AM

Who's to say they can access that information on a whim? tracking out your character names etc, and even if they can I doubt they would bother. However having the name show up right there that is quite another thing. Then that person contacting you asking for help and stating the name that sticks out as being one that p***ed you off? Yeah not quite the same thing.

I'm positive they can access any account details (pertinent to their activities, eg: They have our character info and server for sure. CC info? Probably not) that they want via our Square Enix account. They are moderators. The only reason they don't mention it on the forums is because the Square Enix Privacy Policy prohibits them from talking about individual accounts in a public setting.

I highly doubt they're as petty as you think, too. Talking smack on the service is not a shot at GMs personally, just the policies that they are required to uphold. Some of them may dislike it just as much as the next guy. If you actually peeved off a GM enough that they'd care and/or remember you, they'd be able to get your character name in an instant anyways. This really does not change anything.

RAIST

06-27-2011, 03:48 AM

So you remove yourself from the phonebook?

But you can't remove yourself from the county tax databases....which are public record and easily obtainable--some even post it freely and openly on the web. In some cases you can not only find the address, but also get a picture of the property, a property card with a diagram for the basic layout of the home, how much it's currently appraised for, how much it last sold for...even manage to find out a person's last reported annual income. Just from using their name.

Not exactly the best example to use in this debate.

Atomic_Skull

06-27-2011, 12:28 PM

So you remove yourself from the phonebook?

In fact I do.

Karbuncle

06-27-2011, 12:58 PM

Well, I think this discussion is definitely played out. The best solution is, If you think your Character name and server is too much private information to be displayed, is to simply not post anymore.

Those of us who are fine with worthless information being displayed can continue posting, and those who are afraid for any named reasons can simply resort to lurking instead of posting. This way they can still read the forums too.

As someone mentioned a while back, The decision is made, So either don't post, or do. I have a really strange feeling the forums will be just fine and continue as normal without those who leave because of this.

It sucks its mandatory but this thread is a few posts from a lock due to it simply becoming repetitive and closing in on inflammatory.

Dozens of people know my real name and address, so I should put both on a giant billboard above a main street, because anyone could find them out, right? No.

Having information accessible to those who might care to search for it and having it advertised for any passer-by to see are not the same thing.

Real Life name/Address =/= Artificial Pixelated Character/Server being displayed on a Forum.

Really they're nothing remotely similar in any way. Your FFXI Character name and Server are probably more closely related to your Favorite Food, and your Favorite Color.

I.E Both worthless information no one cares about except yourself. You're not important enough for people to care. Neither am i. No one in this forums cares I'm on Asura do they? nope.

No ones going to care your on Leviathan or whatever. no ones going to care you're a 90PUP or what have you.

End point. Nobody cares who you are or what server you're on. Same goes for me, and every poster here. Most/all Forum posters are smart enough to separate game from Forum. I used someone named "Futchy" as an example a while back. he did some down right bad stuff, but i bet even though BG has a thread about it, Less than 10% of the people on these forums know who he is. Right?

Probably less than 1% of the FFXI population. Point being you could jack a bank and jump servers and people will eventually not care anymore.

Now, Again, I understand wanting to remain anonymous, Unfortunately your only option is to simply not post anymore. I'm just trying to show you very very little is going to change of this and your fears are unwarranted. You needn't worry about this.

Edit: I think i should clarify, When i say "Nobody cares about you" i'm not saying "HUR YOU'RE WORTHLESS", i'm saying no on in game is going to care enough about a forum post to harass you. Nothing negative will come of this. I've made some people angry on FFXIAH before, I have yet to receive 1 negative in-game tell. I've got a few PMs, But People are generally smart enough to keep these two worlds separate (Forum, and FFXI)

GlobalVariable

06-27-2011, 01:22 PM

Well, I think this discussion is definitely played out. The best solution is, If you think your Character name and server is too much private information to be displayed, is to simply not post anymore.This or use a mule. It's not like a gun is to my head forcing me to use the forums. It's a fairly big disappointment to some though because unlike other forums this one is "official" and we actually see regular replies from representatives of the games maker here. Its just not quite the same as deciding not to post on ffxiah. If for some reason I'm not allowed to use a mule, I'll simply stop posting here. Which I believe ppl not posting anymore or just using mule was the OP's point before all the hacking, rmt, "you have something to hide", and other arguments came in.

Like Karbuncle I doubt anything that hasn't already been said is going to pop up now.

Karbuncle

06-27-2011, 01:23 PM

Yah, I'm not saying it doesn't sucks that some people might have to stop posting because they want to maintain privacy.

Just that the decision has been made so we gotta accept it how it is...

GlobalVariable

06-27-2011, 01:30 PM

In theory they might reconsider. But I doubt it.

Karbuncle

06-27-2011, 01:31 PM

In theory they might reconsider. But I doubt it.

They could change it to be optional at some point. but i have a feeling it was mandatory for a reason. So we'll see.

GlobalVariable

06-27-2011, 01:35 PM

Likely the reasoning I cited in my 1st post or the same reason we use the same log in credentials for the forums; they treat it as part of the same account not 2 accounts for 2 things

Tamarsamar

06-27-2011, 01:53 PM

Karbuncle

06-27-2011, 02:02 PM

I agree with Karbuncle in that personal information no more at stake than it was previously.

I disagree with the notion that ad hominem attacks wouldn't be made possible, however.

So I will be dropping off the face of the forums in the coming week. So what.

While it is your right to disagree, I will attempt to show you the error of your ways.

I would offer you my personal guarantee that anything you do on a forum will have minimal to null impact on your FFXI experience. But it likely means very little.

As a long time forumer i continue to say i have yet to receive negative attention in game over a forum. In fact on more than one occasion i have received positive attention. Its awkward, but Its not negative at least.

Anyway, at the very least, those who will cease posting will be able to continue browsing the forums with little hindrance. which is a small positive.

Daremo

06-27-2011, 03:04 PM

For me, it's more about the principle. If given the choice I might choose to reveal such info as that(in truth, looking at my history of info sharing that's rather unlikely, but it could happen), if I felt it served a purpose, or was fun to do so. Being forced to show that information is simply not something I can tolerate. It'll be a shame to no longer be able to post here, but if that's how SE wants to play it, so be it.

Real Life name/Address =/= Artificial Pixelated Character/Server being displayed on a Forum.

Information I want kept private = Information I want kept private, whatever it's nature.

No one other than me should be deciding how much or how little of my information gets distributed on the internet.

Runespider

06-27-2011, 03:11 PM

I'll wait and see how it actually works, if you can use a mule this change will ultimately be for nothing anyway (aside from making people with no mule buy one if they care ofc).

If they actually really seriously want to enforce this and make you use the highest level character on the account, well that will be the point people will have to decide if they want to be forced to do something they disagree with just to post on a forum.

It probably won't damage the forum that much either way but considering a lot of people that would post here don't due to the login stuff this could be another cut in possible users.

Tsukino_Kaji

06-27-2011, 03:42 PM

Information I want kept private = Information I want kept private, whatever it's nature.

No one other than me should be deciding how much or how little of my information gets distributed on the internet.The impending rules on teh forum say otherwise and you'll have no choice but to agree or not use the forum. This aplies to everyone. So people are left with the descision.

I wonder if the MODs have to use SE accounts to log in? lol

Yarly

06-27-2011, 03:50 PM

Great, now we will know who makes all these idiotic forum posts demanding the devs to do stupid crap like change wyvern colors because you know that will be the #1 priority. Forget job balancing/changes and stuff. I want more job emotes too!

Kraggy

06-27-2011, 03:53 PM

I'm absolutely opposed to this. I'm a diehard advocate of privacy and anonymity in all facets of the internet, and forcing people to reveal information they want to keep private is never acceptable. If people want to share such information, that's their right, but requiring it for everyone is intolerable. If this goes through as stated then the 27th will be my last log in here.
Making this kind of ludicrous argument, that toons in a video game have anything to do with personal privacy, is why most think people arguing as you do are nuts.

Privacy is a BIG DEAL on the Internet .. and has nothing whatsoever to do with characters one rents in a video game.

Tsukino_Kaji

06-27-2011, 03:58 PM

Making this kind of ludicrous argument, that toons in a video game have anything to do with personal privacy, is why most think people arguing as you do are nuts.

Privacy is a BIG DEAL on the Internet .. and has nothing whatsoever to do with characters one rents in a video game.This.
Except for the toon thing. WoW, no thanks.

Runespider

06-27-2011, 04:07 PM

Privacy is a BIG DEAL on the Internet .. and has nothing whatsoever to do with characters one rents in a video game.

The game and the forum are two seperate entities, some would like to keep it that way. The point is people want them to be seperate so why should they not allowed to be able to keep them seperate, whatever the reason.

The stupid part is that the people that are finding this a bad thing are not the trolls, they are just the normal posters. Trolls don't give a sh**.

Daremo

06-27-2011, 04:10 PM

Tsukino_Kaji

06-27-2011, 04:16 PM

The game and the forum are two seperate entitiesThis forum is inexorably linked with the game, just because you're not playing the forum with your character, dose not mean that they are seperate entities. Same coin and all.

Karbuncle

06-27-2011, 04:24 PM

Since you seem to have not gotten it the first time:

Information I want kept private = Information I want kept private, whatever it's nature.

What you think of the value of that information is irrelevant. It's not your decision to make, nor should it be SE's. Nor ultimately will it. It'll be my decision to to log in or not, and currently that's reading 'not'.

Only to the bold, yes it is. Its not your character. Its Their character, They allow you to use it in exchange for 12.95. however they can do whatever they want with it and you have no say in the matter. Its sad but true.

You see, That's what you agree to the second you log on and click "Accept" to the ToS every time you log on. You own nothing. its not private at all, Its public information if SE so deems it to be. If you even got the slightest hint that this information is yours and should be private you were wrong from the beginning, and SE nor anyone here can be blamed that you thought your character information was yours to decide what to do with.

So the only choice you have in this is of course deciding rather or not you want to log into the forums anymore. And you have all the right in the world to decide not to log on. However your "private" FFXI Character information is not private, its not even yours, Its property of SE. you had not privacy to begin with. it was just the false image of "privacy".

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not calling you stupid or anything, Simply that any illusion you had of your character information being in your control is simply that, an illusion. It was SE's from the beginning and still is.

I understand wanting to remain anonymous. Its just i understand I never have a choice in the matter when it comes to an "Official" forum. Because its run by the people who own your characters. If they decided you had to link your PLayonline ID to be displayed they could. (They wouldn't, but they could). It just comes with the forums.

Not saying you shouldn't be upset, Just saying I currently am not upset by these changes. You yourself are allowed to be however.

Daremo

06-27-2011, 04:42 PM

Ownership of MMO character data has never been adequately challenged, that I know of, but related precedents suggest it wouldn't go well for the MMO company (unless you live in China, where it's already been decided the player is the principal owner of character data, ToS or not ToS). But if I actually believed that, I wouldn't play this game at all. It's something of a moot point, since there's not much I could do with the character data without access to SE's servers, which they have every right to deny me access to at any time.

A great many things that are still standard parts of generic ToS agreements have failed to withstand legal challenge, yet they still get put in, in the hopes that you won't know that, and will fail to prod the elements they know are basically indefensible in the event of a dispute.

Karbuncle

06-27-2011, 04:47 PM

They own your Character Data and you agree to relinquish any rights to that character when you log on. Regardless of what you just said, You willingly accept what they put in the ToS each time you log on to the game.

They can display information like Character Name, Job, And Server if they wished too. That my only point, and now they're exorcising that right.

Even if it is as you say, Wouldn't any and all "ifs" be dismissed when you willingly agree to accept everything they wrote in the ToS with each log in? I was under the impression its basically a contract between you and them.

Edit: Do you mind citing me some links to past trials where someone has Opposed the ToS related to Character Information like Name and Server being displayed on a Forum? It sounds like you know them.

I'd like to read this kind of thing. Its interesting to me. Either way, I don't feel someone will go to court over this and win, as i don't think "this" situation falls into the grey areas you described. So as you said, yah, kind a moot point.

Daremo

06-27-2011, 04:56 PM

Karbuncle

06-27-2011, 04:58 PM

They can, obviously. I've never once suggested that they are legally obligated not to display my data, whatever my wishes, but rather that they shouldn't. Note the wording of that previously bolded quote. SE should not be making this decision. I suppose I could have added an 'IMO', but it seemed superfluous at the time.

I just didn't expect you to be saying "shouldn't".

because then we agree. in a way. I feel it should not be Mandatory. I'm okay with it either way, I just understand some people aren't.

Also, Links to those trials if you can. I still would like to read them... its a pretty interesting idea someone might have taken an MMO company to court over Forum and/or Character name issues. (I'm a sucker for news articles and stuff related to this)

Daremo

06-27-2011, 05:08 PM

Runespider

06-27-2011, 05:08 PM

Personally all I care about is keeping my ingame account seperate from my forum account. I should not have to worry about something I post on a forum having any impact on my time ingame at all.

For those that care about privacy for something they spend quite a lot of time on having your account and server name clearly visible means you can use FFXIAH/google to get a lot of information about them, posts on a forum make you care enough about someone to do so. From ffxiah you can find out a lot about their character, what they buy, friends, gear etc, ingame you know exactly who they are and what they are doing, hell if you want to get really far into it you can search with google and find linkshell applications (that very often include rl information).

RAIST

06-27-2011, 05:47 PM

Typically when a dispute over virtual property makes it's way to the courts, it gets settled out of court, so no judgement is rendered, so there aren't many precedents to follow. There was a case in China though where a guy sued to have stolen items returned and the judge ordered they be restored, holding the company liable due to their poor security that facilitated the theft. Found 9 page PDF of an essay published in a law journal on virtual property rights that may be an intersting read, mentions the case in China and a few others that didn't get judgements, but puts forth some interesting food for thought on the issues:

Online Role Play Games - The Legal Response (http://www.herts.ac.uk/fms/documents/schools/law/HLJ_V4I2_Lee.pdf)

Edit: grr.. brain fart.. made the hyperlink backwards and it was directing to the title of the essay and displaying the URL. Should look and work right now.

Karbuncle

06-27-2011, 07:09 PM

Well I can't think of anything quite that specific off the top of my head. I'd be rather surprised if that particular issue had ever gone as far as a court decision, indeed, has it ever come up before?! This goes under the 'never adequately challenged' portion, I believe.

But look up Bragg v Linden for fun with MMOs.

I did, and thats... Interesting, To say the least. also looked Through RAIST's link. Not surprised in the least though. Shame there weren't very many more things to look at. Thought we were going somewhere with this...

Oh well, I'll miss you guys when this update comes...

Jingizu

06-27-2011, 10:40 PM

Man, what a bunch of babies. You play a game, you use the OFFICIAL forum OWNED by the company that OWNS the game, so, what's the big deal? I really don't see how this is a problem anyway. This is the web, and who's 'real' on the web? You play with a cartoon image of an imaginary character in an imaginary world and you treat an official linkage as a violation of privacy. It's a GAME, it's NOT real life. It's not like they are asking you to display a photo of yourself and your SS#.

Daniel_Hatcher

06-27-2011, 10:56 PM

RAIST

06-28-2011, 12:14 AM

I did, and thats... Interesting, To say the least. also looked Through RAIST's link. Not surprised in the least though. Shame there weren't very many more things to look at. Thought we were going somewhere with this...

Oh well, I'll miss you guys when this update comes...

eh..it's an old debate that just seems to go nowhere. A software firm I used to work for actually did some research into this about 5 or 6 years ago, alongside another discussion over displaying public records over the internet (that's another issue that will blow your mind once you see just how easy it is for a stranger to request a crap load of details about you starting with something as simple as your name or the license plate of your car even).

Google Virtual Property Rights and you can find a ton of info out there--a lot of it older cases that didn't really have a conclusion that can be used in court as a precedent to support a future case. Nearly every company that has put some sort of MMO out there has faced this issue at one point or another. And it's not limited to just MMO's either--even Microsoft has gotten into it on more general terms with their virtual earth 3D mapping thing. Who gives them the right to render your personal property without your consent (or even your knowledge for that matter), and then turn a profit off it by sticking virtual ads on it? Wouldn't be surprised if someone found details on a lawsuit against Google for similar arguments.

The bigger problem is that most of this just gets shuffled off and settled out of court, so there is little to no precedent to follow. Case law is screwy that way....until judges start making more bold judgements for other's to cite in cases, it will more often continue to boil down to a company realizing how much damage is at stake to a their reputation (and future profits) so they settle out of court or something. Who knows what all goes on behind closed doors...stupid non-disclosure agreements.

Elexia

06-28-2011, 12:23 AM

Don't troll if you're scared to be caught.

Byrth

06-28-2011, 01:08 AM

Don't have trolled if you were going to be such a pussy about being caught.

ftfy, and that's basically what this whole debate comes down to, as far as I can see.

Honestly, I'm a little shocked that SE is going this route. JPs are much more attached to their anonymity than NAs.

RAIST

06-28-2011, 01:34 AM

Don't troll if you're scared to be caught.

some trolls actually thrive on the discourse, so this may actually encourage them.

Daniel_Hatcher

06-28-2011, 01:43 AM

Don't troll if you're scared to be caught.

That has little relevance, it's more to do with the fact SE have said we're going to be giving details of you away on the internet because we know them without an option to opt-out if you want to.

All SE have done here is allow people that bully others on this forum already now have their character details to do it in game, well done SquareEnix.

Dallas

06-28-2011, 02:36 AM

BG is already plotting their revenge on anyone who would dare play melee SMN against their decree:

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/105421-Linking-Forum-Character-Data-(06-23-2011)

bungiefan

06-28-2011, 02:38 AM

Isn't the character linking going to show your character data on your old posts, even if you stop posting? WOuldn't that defeat the purpose of leaving the forum?

katz

06-28-2011, 02:44 AM

Reading the original information, it would seem that SE want everyone to update their profiles with the character information before allowing them to post in the future. This would mean if you chose not to update your details, historical records cant show it. The real shame is why SE have announced this change but not stated why they cant do it already for themselves. They have all the information in their databases. Maybe it was to give you the choice of joining or not.

Runespider

06-28-2011, 02:46 AM

Isn't the character linking going to show your character data on your old posts, even if you stop posting? WOuldn't that defeat the purpose of leaving the forum?

No cause you can have 18 characters per account, it wouldn't know which to attach. Unless they do something that auto-attaches the highest account or something but I doubt they can be bothered to put that much effort in, and anyway I think you have to agree to this before they do it. All old posts will look the same, all new posts will show the character information/.

Reading the original information, it would seem that SE want everyone to update their profiles with the character information before allowing them to post in the future. This would mean if you chose not to update your details, historical records cant show it. The real shame is why SE have announced this change but not stated why they cant do it already for themselves.

They very rarely explain things in depth, they just do it and to hell with the playerbase. It's their nature as a company.

Tamarsamar

06-28-2011, 02:53 AM

Isn't the character linking going to show your character data on your old posts, even if you stop posting? WOuldn't that defeat the purpose of leaving the forum?

You will be required to link the character yourself once it is implemented. So no.

Karbuncle: if I was worried about personal attacks in-game, I wouldn't have used my character name as my forum username.

katz

06-28-2011, 02:53 AM

As a female I worry about internet security and the information I allow other people to see. I will be using my yahoo email address and my mule if I chose to sign up. This account I never look at, doesnt hold any bank or personal information I dont want sharing with others. If you want privacy you make it.

RAIST

06-28-2011, 02:59 AM

BG is already plotting their revenge on anyone who would dare play melee SMN against their decree:

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/105421-Linking-Forum-Character-Data-(06-23-2011)

Interesting how I got singled out in that thread:

Apparently, RAIST visited forums but never picked up on all the advice to use NoScript/AdBlock when the hacking activity was at its peak. As Karbuncle mentioned in that thread, linking in-game characters to forum accounts isn't a major account risk. The biggest risks come from visiting ad-supported FFXI sites without NoScript/AdBlock (despite best efforts, a few dirty ads will always sneak through) or sharing account info and passwords with friends. I've had my character linked to FFXIAH for years without an issue.

I could see a reason for outrage if SE forced us to link our actual names and personal information to forum accounts, but I have no issue with linking forum accounts with in-game accounts (I've never associated my RL name with my FFXI character's name online anyways). Also, many posters use their in-game names.

All in all, I have no problem with this change. It might discourage the actual trolls and posters who go full retard (read: Dallas) and separate these posters from the people interested in actual discussion.

That person didn't know anything about me, and just assumed I didn't have any security in place. That laptop that got attacked was a company's laptop, with security installed from government offices as it was required to be able to work on their servers and networks remotely and locally on their networks. Crap happens...no matter how good the security practices may be, stuff can sometimes get through--especially when a new attack first kicks off. Otherwise you wouldn't be getting updates to some software every 4 freaking hours at times.

Just more evidence of how disrespectful people can be sometimes. Spin it any way you like, this decision from SE is going to have some level of negative impact for the community from the simple fact some people are uncomfortable with it. Whether you agree with those people's position or not for whatever reason you may have, the simple fact remains that some people don't like it, and will not want to take part in the forums because of it.

Khiinroye

06-28-2011, 03:00 AM

bungiefan: If you don't update your profile after the maintenance, it shouldn't be reflected in your old posts.

Runespider

06-28-2011, 03:11 AM

Daniel_Hatcher

06-28-2011, 03:17 AM

Dallas

06-28-2011, 03:21 AM

GG, who defends the practice on this forum, was demanding full access to my gear just a few days ago. I've posted it many times, I just think BG should have to work for it.

Atomic_Skull

06-28-2011, 06:15 AM

ftfy, and that's basically what this whole debate comes down to, as far as I can see.

Honestly, I'm a little shocked that SE is going this route. JPs are much more attached to their anonymity than NAs.

There's probably a sh*tstorm going down over on the JP forums that dwarfs this one.

Atomic_Skull

06-28-2011, 06:18 AM

Its not your character. Its Their character, They allow you to use it in exchange for 12.95. however they can do whatever they want with it and you have no say in the matter. Its sad but true.

You see, That's what you agree to the second you log on and click "Accept" to the ToS every time you log on. You own nothing. its not private at all, Its public information if SE so deems it to be. If you even got the slightest hint that this information is yours and should be private you were wrong from the beginning, and SE nor anyone here can be blamed that you thought your character information was yours to decide what to do with.

That's nice but it doesn't mean we don't have a right to ask that they not force people to link their characters. We have a right to tell SE that we don't like it.

Runespider

06-28-2011, 07:52 AM

There's probably a sh*tstorm going down over on the JP forums that dwarfs this one.

Given everything it wouldn't suprise me if they are only going to do this to EU/US players. I had a quick look at the jp forum and didn't see anything about it, which is a bit odd.

*edit nvm they have 2 posts one about the size of this one asking how to unsubscribe to the forum and another one with nearly 300 posts like this >.>

Karbuncle

06-28-2011, 08:32 AM

That's nice but it doesn't mean we don't have a right to ask that they not force people to link their characters. We have a right to tell SE that we don't like it.

Hur hur i've been saying that this entire time hur hur

Just because i don't repeat it in every single post i make doesn't mean it hasn't been said in one of my thousands of other posts.

I was saying they can do whatever they want with that data, but you still have the right to complain. I just personally did not see a problem on the subject.

Greatguardian

06-28-2011, 09:52 AM

GG, who defends the practice on this forum, was demanding full access to my gear just a few days ago. I've posted it many times, I just think BG should have to work for it.

Only because you were calling all the Summoners on this board gimp. Not even BG lets people get away with talking smack about others without being able to back yourself up. When people post in the Gimp thread in BGMedia on a similarly gimp account, they get called out to hell and back.

Accountability, ladies and gentlemen. Don't write checks that you can't cash. Don't strut your stuff all over the forums and then hide in a hole and troll/safeface when people call you out. It's not like Dallas is the first person to do so on these forums either. TearValerin / Andylynn used to post on multiple sock-puppet accounts, pretending to own a Gungnir, and have conversations with himself to boost his online reputation.

Let he without gimp cast the first stone. That's not to say that elite players should be running around calling everyone terrible and gimp. Most people who do that get on everyone's nerves, elite or not. It's simply a reminder that nobody's perfect. There is, however, an extreme difference between being "Not perfect" and being "Really freaking dumb". Refusing to change gear? The latter. TP'ing in all STR and no Haste? The latter. Having a Walahra turban instead of a Zelus Tiara? The former.

If you're going to preach, make sure you can practice first. Otherwise you're really nothing more than a troll.

PS: Fun game time. Count up how many times Dallas has called someone gimp on these boards. Then count up how many times Myself, Karbuncle, and Byrth have called someone gimp on these boards and add all 3 of us together. See which is higher.

PPS: I'd personally estimate the second number has a rough total of 0.

ShadowHeart

06-28-2011, 10:34 AM

so much for the right of privacy and choice. I grow up in a land of democracy and the ability to have choice and choose what I want to share and don't want to. Their is no point of forcing a person to post their characters names as its been stated numerours time before people who wish any kind of anonymity will just use a mule and i will for spite now

Dallas

06-28-2011, 04:57 PM

Newsflash to GG, there's not a single person in this game that has to answer to you.

Karbuncle

06-28-2011, 05:03 PM

If you wanna debate semantics, No one has to answer to anyone at any time ever. So thats kinda a pointless statement.

As is the continuation of this thread as a whole.

Dallas

06-28-2011, 05:12 PM

So, the cyber-bully demanding I extract his vengence upon myself is somehow less pointless?

Karbuncle

06-28-2011, 05:24 PM

Definition of a witch hunt is
"The term "witch-hunt" since the 1930s has also been in use as a metaphor to refer to moral panics in general (frantic persecution of perceived enemies). "

Isn't that what i said x.x? I guess I didn't draw attention to the term "Metaphor", But I was trying to describe it based on its roots "Attacking/Accusing/etc People due to panic and misinformation/Ignorance".

Either way, I'm relatively positive no one on BG is panicking to the point of religiously seeking out gimp players and metaphorically "hanging" them for it. Its nothing even remotely close to a Witch hunt, still >_>

Elexia

06-28-2011, 08:59 PM

As I said, don't troll if you don't want to be caught when this goes live. Only reason to be crying about this.

Daniel_Hatcher

06-28-2011, 09:07 PM

As I said, don't troll if you don't want to be caught when this goes live. Only reason to be crying about this.

Yup, exactly the case, people are only moaning because they troll, for shame...

Now sarcasm aside, don't be so deluded.

---

As for the "It's their character not yours debate" technically it is our character. We pay for it thus it is protected as a product we purchased. At least in the UK it is anyway.

Elexia

06-28-2011, 09:58 PM

Yup, exactly the case, people are only moaning because they troll, for shame...

Now sarcasm aside, don't be so deluded.

---

As for the "It's their character not yours debate" technically it is our character. We pay for it thus it is protected as a product we purchased. At least in the UK it is anyway.

Deluded? Lol, unless it's going to display my real name, address, phone number, social security, bank accounts and blood type I'm pretty sure there's very little reason to be crying that people will know your character name.

Unless people cry in-game when they party with someone? Since they can see your character name too you know. Do people cry about FFXI-AH? There's truly zero concerns unless they're giving out real life information, which to my knowledge they aren't.

Thus why I say it's mainly people who like to troll are the only ones truly worried about it. Oh and just an FYI, you own nothing, actually read the EULA and ToS, you're basically "renting".

RAIST

06-28-2011, 11:36 PM

therein lies the heart of some of the debate though...you aren't renting, you are paying for access to content, then if that content is denied to you due to the malicious action of a third party, who is entitled to damages and who is responsible for compensation of those damages. It just spins round and round.

Then there is the whole debate over what is created by the company versus what is created by the player. You name your avatar. You select how it looks--both by choosing racial features and equipment. Certain aspects of that avatars appearance and how it interacts with it's surroundings are not entirely dictated by the company, but more so by the player.

There is a LOT of gray area, and a lot of wiggle room. There is case precedent for considering EULA's null and void due to the fact you are not made aware of that EULA until AFTER purchasing the software and opening, voiding your right to return it--details that in some jurisdictions are legally required to be established before any financial transactions are made, or any financial agreement for future payments can be signed.

Virtual Property rights are simply in limbo, and until something more definitive is on the books, companies should air more on the side of protecting the player's interests on such matters....but that isn't the case most of the time. What is so annoying about this is that one of their own services allows you to hide most all your info, or publish only certain portions of it--even allws you to restrict whether it is openly published to all, or just registered users. Just how far will they go with it?

What is ruffling the feathers so much isn't necessarily the issue of WHAT is being displayed. There is also issue with the tactic they are using--on one of their community sites, they are forcing you to display character specific information (regardless what it is) to participate, while on another one of their community sites they allow you to opt out of displaying it with no penalty to participation. Regardless of whether you feel they have the rights to display the info, why do they let you opt out on one hand, then force you on the other?

Darkshade

06-29-2011, 12:30 AM

It's going to be sad if this stops people posting, quite a few will indeed stop using these forums if this is forced on your main character. It will be even more of a problem for JP players I would think.

I cant think of a single FFXI forum that forces you to associate and publicly show your ingame account to post, it's pretty stupid. Hell I'd be scared to say anything bad about the GMs or customer service after they add this..

What are you using a seperate Square Enix account than your Play Online account just for logging in? If not, it's not like GMs can't already see that.

Guys I don't know why you're making such a big deal out of this. Plenty of MMOs do this, and it's how posting is setup on FFXIAH and no one has a problem with it. If you're too afraid of linking your main character, link a mule. It probably isn't even required anyway.

Runespider

06-29-2011, 12:38 AM

Plenty of MMOs do this, and it's how posting is setup on FFXIAH and no one has a problem with it.

I don't post on XIAH because of that, I'm sure many others don't. There are also quite a lot of anon accounts on there.

katz

06-29-2011, 12:44 AM

I dont use FFXIAH because there are anon accounts and because people dont actually play the game anymore but use it as a social network. At best the information is out of date and serves little purpose.

Khiinroye

06-29-2011, 12:56 AM

There is also issue with the tactic they are using--on one of their community sites, they are forcing you to display character specific information (regardless what it is) to participate, while on another one of their community sites they allow you to opt out of displaying it with no penalty to participation.

The ls community site makes displays your character name, world, and linkshell, at the minimum. I would think that knowing your linkshell would make it easier to find information on you than knowing 1 to 3 of your job levels.

Edit: It also shows your job/subjob level on the last reading, shell type (pearl, sack, shell), Character race/gender, nation of allegiance, rank, and title, none of which can be hidden. Well, I guess this site will actually show less information for participating.

Elexia

06-29-2011, 01:38 AM

From what I know from the last time I used the LS community eternal beta site, it only allowed you to keep crafts hidden.

Raxiaz

06-29-2011, 01:52 AM

It probably isn't even required anyway.

But it IS required, as stated in the official announcement...

Darkshade

06-29-2011, 02:22 AM

I don't post on XIAH because of that, I'm sure many others don't. There are also quite a lot of anon accounts on there.

You can just simply make a forum account on FFXIAH/XIVpro and post without ever linking a character. I wouldn't be surprised if you can still post here on just a separate Square Enix account that doesn't have any characters linked unless you have to have a active XI or XIV subscription to be a forum member.

Again I understand some of you for whatever reasons have problems with the anonymity of these forums future but I'm just not feeling it.

Sorry if I'm offending anyone.

RAIST

06-29-2011, 03:00 AM

From what I know from the last time I used the LS community eternal beta site, it only allowed you to keep crafts hidden.

You can actually block out most of your profile from public viewing so it looks like this one:

http://fanzone.playonline.com/lscom/characterAllData.do?EQUIP_LINKSHELL_ID_STRING=2xYCAgqERIRhMCBWJtXUFg-3D-3D&VIEW_LINKSHELL_ID_STRING=oQw778cZyFfp9HANRJ8Mp2grAZUvnTHVQEGTY3eU2M0-3D

I haven't logged into that site since I unlinked from everything ages ago, so I don't know just how much you can hide for certain now, but if you browse shells while not logged in, you will find a lot of profiles that hide all but name, race/gender, the last job levels they were on and their current nation ranks. IDK if any of that can be made private or not now.

The bigger point is just how far they go with publishing details about your account. Will they start showing more info without giving you an opt-out option? It would make more sense for your character data to show on the LS site, as that is there to facilitate people getting together, but they give you options to keep it private.

This site is more a support forum than a social one, and displaying characta data doesn't really serve a purpose here. Outside of stating things like x ability on y job or set bonus from a certain set is not working properly--they don't need to know what job/level you are on when generating a support ticket unless it is crucial to the issue, in which case you are providing that info in your report. So, why are they making it mandatory to link and display ANY of your info on your profile?

THAT is the issue at the heart of this action--it shouldn't be mandatory unless it is necessary for the site to fulfill it's role.

Greatguardian

06-29-2011, 03:21 AM

I think that's a big problem with people's understanding of the Official Forums as a whole, though.

This site is a social one. General Discussion is meant for ... Discussion. This is not a "Everything here goes to the Devs, it's feedback time!" site. It is a social site that the Community Team also browses and occasionally posts in. Yes, there are other forums that serve the same purpose. BG, ZAM, FFXIAH, KI. That's fine. But, comparatively, the Support sections of this site are significantly smaller than the Social sections.

It's been abundantly clear for a while now that the Job subsections are meant to allow players to discuss their jobs with one another. Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to think that the PUP forum or the DRG forum or the DRK forum is the place to rant about changes they need in PUP, DRG, and DRK. It's not. Those subsections aren't there for player suggestions. They're there for discussion.

Heck, even GD is primarily for discussion. Does stuff get taken from here? Yeah. Do the Com Reps read GD? Yeah. But I can assure you that these forums have as much of a social purpose as anything else.

RAIST

06-29-2011, 03:43 AM

But it is heavily marketed as more a support forum by SE--more specifically a way for SE and players to exchange ideas.

you call a GM, they direct you here to file a report--and not the support portal like they used to.

There is only one link that takes you directly to the original support portal--little button down in the lower left. If you drill down to view licenes aggreements those are run thorugh the acttual support portal, otherwise POL is covered with hyperlink text/images that direct you here. It has more the appearance of being here as a means for the players to get information from SE, and send feedback/requests to SE instead of using the actual Support Center--hence more inclined to be seen as a support forum than a social one.

Greatguardian

06-29-2011, 04:54 AM

Raxiaz

06-29-2011, 04:58 AM

Both of you are arguing points which are valid and I don't know what you two hope to gain from it.

Tsukino_Kaji

06-29-2011, 04:58 AM

Both of you are arguing points which are valid and I don't know what you two hope to gain from it.Closure that wont come.

RAIST

06-29-2011, 05:03 AM

There is no reason for support and social discussion to be mutually exclusive.

Yes, Technical issues are directed here. Support issues are directed here. Feedback is taken from here. But it is still a social forum. The amount of social content handily outweighs the amount of support content on a post-by-post basis.

Is this the official support forum? Yes. Does that mean it does not also function as an official social forum? No. It serves as both. This update may only be relevant to the social functions of the forum, but that does not mean it is irrelevant to the forums as a whole.

The point is it was primarily marketed as a communication conduit between SE and the players--the players have molded it into a more social environment, while it has continued to be presented by SE to be more for a support role than a social one. The forum guidelines are even crafted to keep posts restricted strictly to FFXI related content,and give them the right to remove any and all personal, social, political, religious, etc. content from the threads.

Tamarsamar

06-29-2011, 05:06 AM

I remember recently reading an article abut how Americans (and potentially other nationalities, but the person could only speak about Americans from personal experience) are more obsessed about "winning" an argument than learning anything productive from it.

Would certainly explain a lot of the internet, including the phenomena we are currently witnessing in this thread. >.>

Greatguardian

06-29-2011, 05:11 AM

The point is it was primarily marketed as a communication conduit between SE and the players--the players have molded it into a more social environment, while it has continued to be presented by SE to be more for a support role than a social one. The forum guidelines are even crafted to keep posts restricted strictly to FFXI related content,and give them the right to remove any and all personal, social, political, religious, etc. content from the threads.

While the guidelines do allow them to remove non-FFXI related material, that isn't to say that SE didn't specifically design parts of the forum to function as a social base in the context of FFXI. Server forums, Job forums, and the General Discussion forum are all primarily social mechanisms by design. Personally, I think the only reason we really see "Suggestion threads" being directed to GD is because it's easier than making a separate section for them.

The only explicitly endorsed "Feedback/Suggestion" threads are the Dev Tags. The rest of GD is merely a social discussion base. I would assert that it was the players who took the Feedback portion of the site a step further and attempted to turn GD into a direct line to the Developer's office rather than a forum for the social discussion of FFXI-related business.

What this boils down to is simply that the forums, by design, are not intended to be a purely support-based structure. Would public account linking be beneficial in a support structure? Not really. Would it be beneficial in a social structure? I believe it would be, and I believe that the web development team feels the same way.

ShadowHeart

06-29-2011, 05:57 AM

lol i am waiting for the first mule to come out called troll XD

Tamarsamar

06-29-2011, 06:03 AM

I understand precisely what's going on. Both of you are trying to come off as if what each of you has to contribute to the discussion is more valuable, to promote some sense of self-worth, perhaps. When in reality, you're both right, and simply are talking in circles now.

Not that I can blame you. I just fell in to that same trap myself. But it's no reason to be so defensive about it.

Darkshade

06-29-2011, 04:21 PM

Oh man. I'm no longer anonymous!

Bumbeen

06-29-2011, 04:27 PM

I am still anonymous.

Karbuncle

06-29-2011, 05:05 PM

Just wanted to say goodbye to the people who stop posting now :D!

Runespider

06-29-2011, 06:40 PM

Just wanted to say goodbye to the people who stop posting now

Mule, np.

I wouldn't of bought one for this, screw giving them more money for such an underhand tactic but since I already had one and Square are incompetent (forcing it and letting you use level 1 mules? XD) business as usual I guess.

Karbuncle

06-29-2011, 07:06 PM

So everyone freaked out for no reason.

Color me shocked.

Tenfooter

06-29-2011, 07:07 PM

Some forums let people do this (not forced), and they don't use mules.

Runespider

06-29-2011, 07:28 PM

So everyone freaked out for no reason.

Color me shocked.

People complained cause they didn't like it, you can't rely on a company being imcompetent when they say they are going to force you to do something so there was some worry.

If they had simply made it optional to show it many that were against it would of had no problem with it anyway and this topic would not of existed, as it is they annoyed people for no reason and accomplished nothing.

Karbuncle

06-29-2011, 07:54 PM

I think they accomplished something.

It just took a while for me to notice.

Runespider

06-29-2011, 08:13 PM

I think they accomplished something.

It just took a while for me to notice.

oh?

125610351389

Karbuncle

06-29-2011, 08:21 PM

oh?

125610351389

Yah, Look closely you'll see it :o

Neika

06-29-2011, 08:51 PM

I would like to know why it lets you set up to 3 jobs to display, but then displays one you didn't set >.<

Doombringer

06-29-2011, 09:00 PM

i wouldn't have any issue with this system if it would just get my "main job" right... how do i set that?

edit: also.. i am like 99% sure i play on Carbuncle... not curbuncle.......

Tamoa

06-29-2011, 09:17 PM

i wouldn't have any issue with this system if it would just get my "main job" right... how do i set that?

edit: also.. i am like 99% sure i play on Carbuncle... not curbuncle.......

Curbuncle... That made me lol :D

Kraggy

06-29-2011, 09:38 PM

I would like to know why it lets you set up to 3 jobs to display, but then displays one you didn't set >.<
This is an SE implementation, don't forget. they never tell you everything.

Byrth

06-29-2011, 10:05 PM

lol, I try to post personal data, but don't say who I'm talking to.

Do me next!

Karbuncle

06-29-2011, 10:07 PM

Do me next!

I'd say me too but it'd probably take all of 30 seconds for someone to find me :D

katiekat

06-30-2011, 12:31 AM

i think the point in this was to get thos with out valid ffxi accounts off the site

wish12oz

06-30-2011, 01:35 AM

I'm rather glad they implemented it, its to bad people can use mules to hide still though. Making people put out their real character name/server would probably reduce the amount of stupid on the forums.

Byrth

06-30-2011, 01:38 AM

But Byrth I already know you, whats the point in teling you your data

If you know me in game, you should have an advantage. Try to figure out my last name and zip code.

Runespider

06-30-2011, 01:45 AM

I'm guessing they simply wanted a way to see what kind of numbers are using the forum per server maybe, I can see no other reason.

I'm rather glad they implemented it, its to bad people can use mules to hide still though. Making people put out their real character name/server would probably reduce the amount of stupid on the forums.

Your post is proof that isn't the case.

Khiinroye

06-30-2011, 02:31 AM

Well, it seems like they pick whichever is first sorted on your list to display in your profile box, rather than the ones you picked to display on your character info. I picked whm / blm / drg to display.

It's showing nin over there.
<--

The order of jobs for me to pick is nin sam drg smn sch blu bst brd blm whm pld rdm. My jobs are visible on ffxiah, so I don't care that people can see them here too, it saves any stalkers about 2 seconds of work!

Doombringer

06-30-2011, 02:41 AM

i just removed everything but red mage... let's see what happens now.

i mean sure i guess it's not a HUGE deal.. but if you're gonna "encourage" us to reveal our secret identities... they could at least make it accurate.

and i have no idea how i'm suppose to turn that "u" into an "a".....

Alienmonkey

06-30-2011, 02:44 AM

Curbuncle wtf

Doombringer

06-30-2011, 03:13 AM

exactly.......

it makes me feel stupid.. like obviously I didn't miss-spell that... but i still have to wear it around...

Runespider

06-30-2011, 04:09 AM

Good job hiding behind a mule. Too afraid of being called out in-game?

Of course I'm hiding behind a mule, did you not read the rest of this thread? That's exactly what i'm doing and yes why should anything I say on a forum have an impact in my gaming time?

If I call you a retarded brain dead monkey on the forum feel free to argue with me here or in PM, ill gladly oblige but my game time is seperate. I keep my arguments on the forums, not that I have many but still.

Byrth

06-30-2011, 05:54 AM

Though I'm sure someone will harass me just to prove me wrong, the only time forum activity has affected my game activity is when people send me tells in game asking if there is anything they could help test / they want to test something and would like to ask me about it. I like that, though there are some times when I don't have anything to offer, so I'm not exactly bothered by it. =p

Btw, good luck figuring out who I am now! Stealth mode activate!

Atomic_Skull

06-30-2011, 08:05 AM

Anyone know how the JPs are taking this?

Catsby

06-30-2011, 08:53 AM

The forums should show your address, real name, and email along with it. [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

Seyrena

06-30-2011, 09:50 AM

I have no problem with it. Someone has a problem with what I say on the forums, they can come on the game and talk smack to me.

Seriously, bring it. I'll shoot you down every time. >:3

Runespider

06-30-2011, 10:52 AM

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

Honestly I've heard this silly argument before many times and it comes from people whos opinions aren't worth valuing anyway, anything you post is judged by the content of the post and nothing else (if you frequent a general discussion chat forum, does what anyone posts have no value unless you have pictures and all their irl info?). I've posted for years on many forums and the fact I didn't paste my ingame char name had ZERO influence on what I got out of posting or what others got out of reading it (good or bad). That will continue to be the case.

So you are more than welcome to your opinion just as I am to not care what you think and know full well that not linking my main account to the post will have zero difference to anyone with half a brain, ultimately though I post here because the devs keep an eye on it not for what anyone else thinks.

Raxiaz

06-30-2011, 11:04 AM

Runespider

06-30-2011, 11:16 AM

And they probably won't listen to a word you say because they'll look at your "MNK lv. 4" and think, "gee, this person doesn't really know what they're talking about."
/sarcasm

A post is a post and yes it's judged by the content of the post, not who posts it. But when someone goes through lengths to hide something as harmless as their made-up character name, it makes one question that person's intents, honestly.

As I say the posts are judged by the content of them, it's easy to see if someone knows what they are talking about or not and the value of the post is the post itself. The forum persona you build up from your post history > your piddling name and char level (which in the abyssea age means next to nothing anyway).

You are wrong and the fact that I know you are wrong and have long history of being in this position and it being show to have zero negative impact on anything I post proves this to me.

Let's just agree that I don't care wtf you think and you can gladly do the same, infact feel free to put me and anyone else who does not have a valid fully leveled account on their side bar on ignore, if you truely believe what you post. I'll take a guess you won't which invalidates your whole argument.

Darkshade

06-30-2011, 12:03 PM

Just /ignoring everyone that is level 5 or under. Anyone going to that length to stay anonymous probably doesn't have much intent of having anything decent to say.

ShadowHeart

06-30-2011, 12:20 PM

Honestly I've heard this silly argument before many times and it comes from people whos opinions aren't worth valuing anyway, anything you post is judged by the content of the post and nothing else (if you frequent a general discussion chat forum, does what anyone posts have no value unless you have pictures and all their irl info?). I've posted for years on many forums and the fact I didn't paste my ingame char name had ZERO influence on what I got out of posting or what others got out of reading it (good or bad). That will continue to be the case.

So you are more than welcome to your opinion just as I am to not care what you think and know full well that not linking my main account to the post will have zero difference to anyone with half a brain, ultimately though I post here because the devs keep an eye on it not for what anyone else thinks.

name jinz cerebus but i wont hide behind a mule lol