Change the Atma "Atma of the Razed Ruins" to better aid all jobs!

[Jar]

I Don't think that this atma is very... how to say it.. "Fair". It supports a small amount of jobs much more than others and if it doesn't help you you're going to be much weaker than the other people around you just because of what this atma does.

I don't think removing it is smart because it is fun to do such awesome damage and that's the point of abyssea, but I vote "Tweaking" it a little would be greatly appreciated.

At this point it adds DEX: Superior(+50), Critical Hit Rate: Superior (+30%), Critical Hit Damage: Major (+30%)

i say to even things up it should be more like DEX: Superior(+50), Critical Hit Rate: Superior (+30%), Physical Damage: Major (+30%)

adding this to make it boost not Critical-hit weaponskilling jobs would be simply amazing.

I know this doesn't fit what you where going with on this atma (OMG CRITICALS BUFFS) but this is would be MUCH MUCH more balanced.

[Azagthoth]

Terrible Idea: You'd still see the same jobs doing the same things, but they'd take longer and cause congestion.

You're not going to invite a SAM over a NIN or a DRK over a WAR if you need red. Furthermore, you're not going to invite a PLD over a MNK for blue unless you're trying to cover slashing weakness.

[Habiki]

I Don't think that this atma is very... how to say it.. "Fair". It supports a small amount of jobs much more than others and if it doesn't help you you're going to be much weaker than the other people around you just because of what this atma does.

I don't think removing it is smart because it is fun to do such awesome damage and that's the point of abyssea, but I vote "Tweaking" it a little would be greatly appreciated.

At this point it adds DEX: Superior(+50), Critical Hit Rate: Superior (+30%), Critical Hit Damage: Major (+30%)

i say to even things up it should be more like DEX: Superior(+50), Critical Hit Rate: Superior (+30%), Physical Damage: Major (+30%)

adding this to make it boost not Critical-hit weaponskilling jobs would be simply amazing.

I know this doesn't fit what you where going with on this atma (OMG CRITICALS BUFFS) but this is would be MUCH MUCH more balanced.

I'll agree that the atma is a little unbalanced, but I don't think replacing the crit hit dmg+ on it is the way to go, the jobs that benifit from the crit dmg+ will benefit just as much from physical dmg dealt +30% and still be leaps and bounds ahead.

The issue isn't so much that Razed Ruin is so overpowered, it's that all other atmas are so underpowered in comparision, jobs without a crit based weaponskill can't keep up due to this, and not using RR hurts dps alot due to how much more dmg critical hits do compared to normal attacks.

I think they also need to make some crit hit rate traits since the jobs that benefit so much from the improved crit hit rate and dmg inside abyssea suffer just as much outside for the lack of gear and only being able to raise crit hit rate through merits or dex+.

[Jar]

Terrible Idea: You'd still see the same jobs doing the same things, but they'd take longer and cause congestion.

You're not going to invite a SAM over a NIN or a DRK over a WAR if you need red. Furthermore, you're not going to invite a PLD over a MNK for blue unless you're trying to cover slashing weakness.

not everything is done lowman man and procs are not everything in the game

exp is done by all jobs this just evens up the damage potential of DDs somewhat inside abyssea over favoring 1 or 2 jobs outright extremely..

also explain your reasoning behind "You'd still see the same jobs doing the same things, but they'd take longer and cause congestion." this would overall boost ALL jobs even the ones getting the boost from RR already will see a bosst when they DONT critical. wouldnt change gameplay at all and i dont want it to i just want to see more than a few jobs pulling 6K weaponskills.(still wouldnt happen like it does with ukko's.)

[Jar]

I'll agree that the atma is a little unbalanced, but I don't think replacing the crit hit dmg+ on it is the way to go, the jobs that benifit from the crit dmg+ will benefit just as much from physical dmg dealt +30% and still be leaps and bounds ahead.

The issue isn't so much that Razed Ruin is so overpowered, it's that all other atmas are so underpowered in comparision, jobs without a crit based weaponskill can't keep up due to this, and not using RR hurts dps alot due to how much more dmg critical hits do compared to normal attacks.

I think they also need to make some crit hit rate traits since the jobs that benefit so much from the improved crit hit rate and dmg inside abyssea suffer just as much outside for the lack of gear and only being able to raise crit hit rate through merits or dex+.

Other atmas cant be changed because we can use 3 so if they make another that is strong like RR it will redoubtably be paired with RR and still put RR users ahead by a mile.

[Habiki]

Other atmas cant be changed because we can use 3 so if they make another that is strong like RR it will redoubtably be paired with RR and still put RR users ahead by a mile.

Well then the solution would be to nerf razed ruin, change its crit hit rate and crit hit dmg to 10-15%.

Every player shouldn't be forced to use razed ruin because all other atmas are so much weaker in comparision.

[Jar]

Well then the solution would be to nerf razed ruin, change its crit hit rate and crit hit dmg to 10-15%.

i thought of that before i posted and than thought of how people would rage at this end all atma being nerfed like a ranger

so i opted for the best way to change it w/o nerfing it and all while boosting none crit WS jobs and came up with this <_< tho for some reason people disagree

[Azagthoth]

I read that as Physical Damage Taken +30%. I'm quite tired at the moment; therefore, I apologize. You'd actually be making jobs with crit based WSs stronger as well since Crit Damage wouldn't apply to hits you don't crit.

Either way, I don't see any point making a change specifically for experience level mobs.

[Jar]

I read that as Physical Damage Taken +30%. I'm quite tired at the moment; therefore, I apologize. You'd actually be making jobs with crit based WSs stronger as well since Crit Damage wouldn't apply to hits you don't crit.

Either way, I don't see any point making a change specifically for experience level mobs.

i play DRK and SAM extensively and i would very much welcome the boost to my favorite jobs!

[Ihnako]

I want Atma of instant Win
- PUP onry
- every hit is a random blue/red or yellow trigger
- a random aura effect for PUP and anyone within a 10 yalm radius

[Yugl]

So instead of my DRG only getting 30% bonus damage when critical hitting, I get 30% damage bonus no matter what. It's like we've solved the problem of 20 not equaling 50 by adding 30 to both!

[Raksha]

Hmmm crit dmg+ caps at +100%, is it possible to hit this cap without the 30% from razed ruins? if so you would have an even bigger problem where certain jobs cap crit dmg anyway and get the extra 30% phys dmg on top of that.

[Kwate]

I Don't think that this atma is very... how to say it.. "Fair". It supports a small amount of jobs much more than others and if it doesn't help you you're going to be much weaker than the other people around you just because of what this atma does.

I don't think removing it is smart because it is fun to do such awesome damage and that's the point of abyssea, but I vote "Tweaking" it a little would be greatly appreciated.

At this point it adds DEX: Superior(+50), Critical Hit Rate: Superior (+30%), Critical Hit Damage: Major (+30%)

i say to even things up it should be more like DEX: Superior(+50), Critical Hit Rate: Superior (+30%), Physical Damage: Major (+30%)

adding this to make it boost not Critical-hit weaponskilling jobs would be simply amazing.

I know this doesn't fit what you where going with on this atma (OMG CRITICALS BUFFS) but this is would be MUCH MUCH more balanced.

Really? Out of all the things we can tweek in the game, this is such a non-issue.

[Arcon]

Hmmm crit dmg+ caps at +100%, is it possible to hit this cap without the 30% from razed ruins? if so you would have an even bigger problem where certain jobs cap crit dmg anyway and get the extra 30% phys dmg on top of that.

I'm fairly certain 200% is the overall Damage Dealt cap, including critical hit damage boosts.

[RAIST]

changing crit hit +30% to Phys. Damage +30% could be too overpowering for it.

You'd more or less still have the same mod to crit. damage in the long run as you would be giving a flat 30% boost to all physical damage. On top of that, you're increasing base physical damage across the board by 30%--so it applies to your non-crit WS as well as your normal hits to build TP.

It could also remove the need for another atma you might be using to increase your base damage, freeing you up to go extend your damage even further or gaining more utility that you otherwise may not be able to do currently.

long story short... don't think it's gonna happen.

[Ravenmore]

The atma not the problem SE not adding a decent crit WS to jobs don't have one. Really who going to deny you a spot in a exp party if you don't have one. NMs are not about all out damage. So either way doesn't make one bit of differance.

[Raksha]

I'm fairly certain 200% is the overall Damage Dealt cap, including critical hit damage boosts.


You got a link to some testing?

[Karbuncle]

I'm fairly certain 200% is the overall Damage Dealt cap, including critical hit damage boosts.

You do mean not counting things like Relic/Empyrean/Mythic Aftermath and Set bonuses from things like THF/WAR/etc?

Cause I know i've seen SS of people doing like 6k+ SA's with Set bonus + Aftermath proc which is easily 600% normal.

[Jar]

You do mean not counting things like Relic/Empyrean/Mythic Aftermath and Set bonuses from things like THF/WAR/etc?

Cause I know i've seen SS of people doing like 6k+ SA's with Set bonus + Aftermath proc which is easily 600% normal.

ive done crits on drk with after math and set proc doing 3500+ thats well over 200% too

[Arcon]

You got a link to some testing?

No.


You do mean not counting things like Relic/Empyrean/Mythic Aftermath and Set bonuses from things like THF/WAR/etc?

Yes, those are all "special" damage boosts and ignore the Damage Dealt cap, just like Sentinel, Fan Dance and Invincible are special damage mitigation and ignore the Damage Taken cap. I shouldn't have said "overall", I just meant from normal direct damage increasing sources. Some like Critical Attack Bonus, Critical Hit Damage, Weapon Skill Damage, etc.

[Karbuncle]

No.



Yes, those are all "special" damage boosts and ignore the Damage Dealt cap, just like Sentinel, Fan Dance and Invincible are special damage mitigation and ignore the Damage Taken cap. I shouldn't have said "overall", I just meant from normal direct damage increasing sources. Some like Critical Attack Bonus, Critical Hit Damage, Weapon Skill Damage, etc.

Thats interesting, Would really like to find the testing on that ... I'll snoop around

[Arcon]

Thats interesting, Would really like to find the testing on that ... I'll snoop around

As I said I'm fairly certain, but not completely, partly because I didn't see any testing directly for this. There has been testing for other things that indicate it behaves this way though. I figure testing will be sufficiently difficult, with the cap raised to +100%. My reasoning was because all the different defensive damage mitigation effects share a cap (with those "special" exceptions), I don't see why it would be any different for offensive effects (again, with those "special" exceptions).

This can be explained quite well from a programming standpoint. Damage calculations follow certain checks throughout the code. So after the damage was calculated with the fSTR and pDIF values, you get the raw damage. Then it checks through direct damage adjustment, damage dealt bonus is pitted against damage taken. It's easy to test that these are adjusted before they are applied (= 50% damage bonus and 50% damage taken reduction cancel each other out) otherwise the results would benefit the lower value by a large amount (100%*150%*50% = 75%). And this includes Critical Hit Damage, Weapon Skill Damage, and other bonuses of this kind, which makes me think they follow the same rules (and consequently the same cap).

However, this does not include the ODD on weapons or the enhancement from WAR or THF AF3 sets. If they would stack, the THF AF3 set bonus would just add another 200% damage on top, so if you do a critical hit, instead of 50% Critical Hit Damage bonus you'd have a 250% bonus. But that's not what happens, instead you get the 50% bonus, calculate your raw damage, and then the AF3 set bonus is applied, resulting in triple the raw damage, which results in those ridiculously high SA/TA numbers (it would be a lot lower if it wasn't that way).

Thus, the damage boni I was referring to are grouped in with the damage taken modifiers. And those cap low at 50% and high at 200%. As I said, it will be pretty hard to test this with the new cap, I just have reason to believe it is that way. Doesn't make it true, but good enough for me to believe it.

[Nikia]

I Don't think that this atma is very... how to say it.. "Fair". It supports a small amount of jobs much more than others and if it doesn't help you you're going to be much weaker than the other people around you just because of what this atma does.

I don't think removing it is smart because it is fun to do such awesome damage and that's the point of abyssea, but I vote "Tweaking" it a little would be greatly appreciated.

At this point it adds DEX: Superior(+50), Critical Hit Rate: Superior (+30%), Critical Hit Damage: Major (+30%)

i say to even things up it should be more like DEX: Superior(+50), Critical Hit Rate: Superior (+30%), Physical Damage: Major (+30%)

adding this to make it boost not Critical-hit weaponskilling jobs would be simply amazing.

I know this doesn't fit what you where going with on this atma (OMG CRITICALS BUFFS) but this is would be MUCH MUCH more balanced.

Really cant believe this was even posted. Not sure if I want to scream or just cry at how annoying this crap is to read. You are sad because you feel less useful in abyssea, really?
All I see here is whining over your Dmg output being less than say a NIN or MNK.
Either lvl a job that is useful in abyssea or suck it up and deal with the atma.


i play DRK and SAM extensively and i would very much welcome the boost to my favorite jobs!

Lvl another job or hope that SE makes DRK SAM reliant again after 91. You complaining and that is what you are doing because your not a dmg king is not a valid reason to request SE to piss on all the other jobs that love this atma or to piss on the player base that wants it as is.

[Jar]

Really cant believe this was even posted. Not sure if I want to scream or just cry at how annoying this crap is to read. You are sad because you feel less useful in abyssea, really?
All I see here is whining over your Dmg output being less than say a NIN or MNK.
Either lvl a job that is useful in abyssea or suck it up and deal with the atma.

Lvl another job or hope that SE makes DRK SAM reliant again after 91. You complaining and that is what you are doing because your not a dmg king is not a valid reason to request SE to piss on all the other jobs that love this atma or to piss on the player base that wants it as is.

i laughed hard at this one xD

so what you say is fuck balance? this is a big issue and i have WAR SAM DRK BLU PLD PUP WHM BLM at 90 with a great deal of time on each but i want its to be less of your job being what matters and more of you having the gear and ability like it was.

if you want to disagree go for it disagree like an adult and say a reason why. no where in that do i see you giving a valid reason NOT to do this but a whole lot of reasons to do it. look at yourself brahh your so blinded by the imbalance you don't even think SE should fix it, but you would rather just bask is the foolishness that is Razed ruins and only play a few jobs or invite a few jobs. there are ALOT more than a few jobs and we should be able to play what we like because a game i about fun and WAR MNK NIN PUP getting this big of a boost with other jobs not isn't fun.

[Neisan_Quetz]

So you're complaining your favourite jobs are not viable in select content? Get in line, PUP/SMN/DRG/BST are way ahead of you there.

[Jar]

So you're complaining your favourite jobs are not viable in select content? Get in line, PUP/SMN/DRG/BST are way ahead of you there.

not at all i think that this would just be more balanced

also you are crazy PUP is one of the most broken jobs in the game right now. so are DRG and BST

if you can complain about my suggested idea please use reason other than something i would argue with it's really sad.

Yes having jobs not be viable is a reason to change things. no this will not fix everything but it would make the game alot more fun and balanced witch is what i want. im glad that you enjoy playing war all day every day but i find it lackluster to only get 1 experience out of the game. this would lessing the loldrk and lolsam thing going around and over all (like at the top of the thread when there where educated responses ...) it would buff ALL jobs not just ones w/o crit hit weaponskills.

[Malamasala]

Sadly an atma like RR is what is required to make Summoner pacts stronger. Attack and STR do very little, if anything. Crits do a ton. But I wouldn't say no to an atma with -BP timer, refresh and crit attack on if you for some reason want to make melee jobs avoid the crit bonus for balance issues.

[Nikia]

Your whining, that is all there is to it. Out of all the other issues that cause imbalance you pick 1 atma? It just so happens that this 1 atma isnt useful for you and helps make other jobs more desirable in aby? So instead of working towards making your job stronger with skill or gear or etc you want to effectively nerf many other jobs that benefit from it. If you were a career NIN,MNK,THF,WAR or other job that loves this atma you wouldnt be QQing aobut it.
You said I am acting childish, well I believe posting about being /useless is somewhat childish as well.

[Jar]

Your whining, that is all there is to it. you want to effectively nerf many other jobs


it would buff ALL jobs not just ones w/o crit hit weaponskills.

read please.

[Dart]

this won't end well jar lol....

how dare you ask to take away their crit dmg+! horrible person you

wait drg has been out of "lol" status for a very long time now (literally when geared/played properly it can beat everything but war or mnk)

You got the timing all wrong jar, if this change was proposed before RR became one of the mainstay of the ffxi community then you might of had a legit point about it. But its far too entrenched now and I just don't see it being changed ever. SE seems to go by what the playerbase wants now, so RR is here to stay.

Also nikia, he isn't being emo. When 1 atma completely changed the dynamic for all jobs that do some type of damage that is truly gamebreaking/changing and worth thinking about. He has a point but its much too late to do anything about it imo.

ninja edit: jar stop poking people with a stick!

[Jar]

this won't end well jar lol....

how dare you ask to take away their crit dmg+! horrible person you

wait drg has been out of "lol" status for a very long time now (literally when geared/played properly it can beat everything but war or mnk)

You got the timing all wrong jar, if this change was proposed before RR became one of the mainstay of the ffxi community then you might of had a legit point about it. But its far too entrenched now and I just don't see it being changed ever. SE seems to go by what the playerbase wants now, so RR is here to stay.

Also nikia, he isn't being emo. When 1 atma completely changed the dynamic for all jobs that do some type of damage that is truly gamebreaking/changing and worth thinking about. He has a point but its much too late to do anything about it imo.

ninja edit: jar stop poking people with a stick!

i can dream D:

[Atomic_Skull]

I Don't think that this atma is very... how to say it.. "Fair". It supports a small amount of jobs much more than others and if it doesn't help you you're going to be much weaker than the other people around you just because of what this atma does.

I don't think removing it is smart because it is fun to do such awesome damage and that's the point of abyssea, but I vote "Tweaking" it a little would be greatly appreciated.

At this point it adds DEX: Superior(+50), Critical Hit Rate: Superior (+30%), Critical Hit Damage: Major (+30%)

i say to even things up it should be more like DEX: Superior(+50), Critical Hit Rate: Superior (+30%), Physical Damage: Major (+30%)

adding this to make it boost not Critical-hit weaponskilling jobs would be simply amazing.

I know this doesn't fit what you where going with on this atma (OMG CRITICALS BUFFS) but this is would be MUCH MUCH more balanced.

SAM tears are delicious.

[Jar]

SAM tears are delicious.
im a DRK main but ok.

[Ihnako]

I may be impolite - emoDRK - get a Twilight Scythe and decend gear and you won't want to change the Atma as it is right now.

Edit: Btw. RR is a pure DEX Atma. Damage is STR not DEX.

[Ravenmore]

I'm fairly sure damage is anything that reduces a mobs HP. Seeing how crit hit melee rounds are about double the amount of hit points the mob takes. I would say that RR is a damage atma with acc being a sec to its prime role.

[Jar]

I may be impolite - emoDRK - get a Twilight Scythe and decend gear and you won't want to change the Atma as it is right now.

Edit: Btw. RR is a pure DEX Atma. Damage is STR not DEX.
i have empyrean but ok?


also read the first post <_< i said how it didnt quite fit to the crit forte~

[Ihnako]

Hmm... the days CoP was the only AddOn - people would have said I've a Kirin's Osode.
What does it say about the player? Nothing but that he/she was lucky enough to have either a good ls or just enought time and/or gil to buy one. An empyrean weapon is about to become common. :(
And my advice was what would be a decent gearing in and outside of abyssea. =^.^=

[Catsby]

Atmas as a whole are tremendously over powered. +50 DEX and, +30% crit chance and +30% crit damage? really? You can't even build a full item/food/buff set that does that.

[Dart]

honestly i'm fine with 2/3 of RR's properties. Crit dmg +30% is the killer for sam, drk, non empy rng. But as I stated previously, I forsee hell freezing over before they change this lol.

[Jar]

honestly i'm fine with 2/3 of RR's properties. Crit dmg +30% is the killer for sam, drk, non empy rng. But as I stated previously, I forsee hell freezing over before they change this lol.

lol seeign as ppl openly dissagreed with it just for the sake of disagreeing on the chance of a RR nerf i doubt it too

[Ravenmore]

Yes it is a nerf. Still who would deny drk, sam any other job that doesn't have a crit hit WS a EXP party slot. Just enaging themob is enough for most. Fight NMs its not about dmg since they die shorty after procing anyway with most getting to 50% just getting all procs. You still won't get invite to NMs since war can proc more then you, with a nin all red are covered, so either way all you got is EXP in abyssea. Outside of abyssea it doesn't matter either since you don't have atma.

[Jar]

Yes it is a nerf. Still who would deny drk, sam any other job that doesn't have a crit hit WS a EXP party slot. Just enaging themob is enough for most. Fight NMs its not about dmg since they die shorty after procing anyway with most getting to 50% just getting all procs. You still won't get invite to NMs since war can proc more then you, with a nin all red are covered, so either way all you got is EXP in abyssea. Outside of abyssea it doesn't matter either since you don't have atma.
well it isnt a nerf and ppl who say that have no idea what they are talking about <_<


anddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd usefullness aside i have alot of situations where doing more damage on DRK ( our main fortae btw if you forgot?) annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd you know we all go for gear to do more damage too right if it doesnt matter can i has all your +2 stuff and you can give up on getting that empy too

[Ravenmore]

If you going after +2s or emp items why take more people then needed. Thing is you still not going to be a first pick for NMs in a age where taking 6 poeple if more then enough to kill every NM in abyssea. You can strip it down even more if you have war, mnk at 90, with 2 friends with thf, nin, whm at 90 don't need +2 items, prefarm the KI NMs proc red. Once you have KIs warp/job change mnk, thf, whm fewer people to farm for. Those 3 jobs will kill the mob fast enough to come out ahead of having a group with more poeple. So yes ALL you have is dmg which is not that needed in abyssea. After just farming one emp.weapon you would have more then enough +2 items for you main jobs not to mention if the other 2 people with you are also after weapons.

[Jar]

If you going after +2s or emp items why take more people then needed. Thing is you still not going to be a first pick for NMs in a age where taking 6 poeple if more then enough to kill every NM in abyssea. You can strip it down even more if you have war, mnk at 90, with 2 friends with thf, nin, whm at 90 don't need +2 items, prefarm the KI NMs proc red. Once you have KIs warp/job change mnk, thf, whm fewer people to farm for. Those 3 jobs will kill the mob fast enough to come out ahead of having a group with more poeple. So yes ALL you have is dmg which is not that needed in abyssea. After just farming one emp.weapon you would have more then enough +2 items for you main jobs not to mention if the other 2 people with you are also after weapons.

this is totally off topic but sure i guess?

my point was that it would make the job more enjoyable not make it out proc a war / nin i dont want that its boring and mehhh i just want to be good at the one things im good at :x not allover fucked by a proc whore war

[Ravenmore]

How is it not enjoyable now. Oh well if that is what would make your job enjoyable I geuss different strokes for different folks. I enjoy procing both red and yellow on blu then all out damage. Outside of abyssea were the Devs are hoping we go (not likely yet) RR won't matter.

[Leonlionheart]

not everything is done lowman man and procs are not everything in the game

exp is done by all jobs this just evens up the damage potential of DDs somewhat inside abyssea over favoring 1 or 2 jobs outright extremely..

also explain your reasoning behind "You'd still see the same jobs doing the same things, but they'd take longer and cause congestion." this would overall boost ALL jobs even the ones getting the boost from RR already will see a bosst when they DONT critical. wouldnt change gameplay at all and i dont want it to i just want to see more than a few jobs pulling 6K weaponskills.(still wouldnt happen like it does with ukko's.)

Because EXP is hard. Derp.

Ukko's is the best WS even outside of Abyssea, contrary to popular belief which would have you think that Fudo or Torcleaver is better outside. Truth is Fudo and Torcleaver are weaker, though more consistent since you need to buff up your DEX to make Ukko's higher. Drakesbane comes closer to Ukko's than anything, other than Hi and Victory Smite in Abyssea (Of course not including Ranged WS like Jishnu's Radiance and Wildfire because the DPS of those weapons in general is just so horrible since they don't get haste). Depending on the target WAR has better TP gain anyway thanks to retaliation. If you're fighting something you can't retaliate against- you're probably not going to want to melee it anyway.

This change would only put WAR even further ahead.

[Jar]

Because EXP is hard. Derp.

Ukko's is the best WS even outside of Abyssea, contrary to popular belief which would have you think that Fudo or Torcleaver is better outside. Truth is Fudo and Torcleaver are weaker, though more consistent since you need to buff up your DEX to make Ukko's higher. Drakesbane comes closer to Ukko's than anything, other than Hi and Victory Smite in Abyssea (Of course not including Ranged WS like Jishnu's Radiance and Wildfire because the DPS of those weapons in general is just so horrible since they don't get haste). Depending on the target WAR has better TP gain anyway thanks to retaliation. If you're fighting something you can't retaliate against- you're probably not going to want to melee it anyway.

This change would only put WAR even further ahead.

empy drk wins outside abyssea outright all the time <_< not because we do more DMG per WS but we hit so much faster unless the war is getting ideal buffs it will lose. ( my LS has multiple ukko's and torcleavers and we run dyna sometimes)

but wait this isnt a war Vs. drk thread gtfo troll if you think this will just make war better explain to me how it wont make non crit jobs much much stronger. like war goes from 5 to 6 and none crit goes from 3 to 5 :P

anyway im closeing the thread its just trollololols that are coming in now no logic no thought more or less just complaining.