Jupiter's staff question

[Nala]

Friend of mine was telling me about something he read and i wanted to know if any one had testing to prove or disprove this, that the crit rate on the staff only applies to the weapon itself. more to the point Ranged attack's are unaffected.

[DebbieGibson]

That's correct

[Nala]

I was looking for data to back that up debbie, judging by it being one of the older weapons, its safe to assume crit rate is specific to that weapon only just like Fudo's, i'm certain the case is so but before i pose a question to a dev. i want to have data on the matter, if need be ill do my own testing but if some one else already had data would save me time.

the crit rate bonus seems a wasted stat for a weapon that even at its level of equipage would be a poor choice for DD'n in (though what mage would be caught meleeing at those levels anyways), if the dev's would even pay the query attention i intend to ask if thats intentional/something that can be addressed. though considering the recent tweak to ranged crit dmg a jupiter's staff boost to crit rate might be a bit overwhelming.

[Catsby]

I've tested it and unfortunately, no it doesn't affect ranged crit rate. It wouldn't make sense if it did since the theme for those weapons seems to be a boost to a base parameter and then one of the subsequent stats that gets enhanced from that. For example, fire staff increases STR and then also increases r.atk. wind staff increases AGI then evasion. Ranged crit rate is governed by AGI so if there was ever a staff to enhance it then it would have been wind/austers.

On a positive note you might like to know that yataghans with +crit damage affect ranged attacks. So if you are lucky and end up with 2 x +6% knives that's 12% more damage on ranged crits/Arching Arrow/Jishnu's Radiance.

[Fyreus]

Are you saying the daggers (unlike the ksnm weapons) give global crit? Why do they go against the grain but everything else doesn't? Augments?

[Nala]

huh... guess you learn something new every day? i wasnt aware that agi was effected ranged crit.

[Alkalinehoe]

Are you saying the daggers (unlike the ksnm weapons) give global crit? Why do they go against the grain but everything else doesn't? Augments?
Because those Daggers give Crit DMG+, not Crit Rate+. Two different stats.


huh... guess you learn something new every day? i wasnt aware that agi was effected ranged crit.
It doesn't.

[Neisan_Quetz]

AGI does affect ranged critical hit rate to my knowledge, in a similar fashion DEX affect melee critical hit rate. with Razed Ruins alone ranged attacks don't achieve the same critical hit rate that melee do (RNG friend parsed at ~44% crit rate with just RR on opposed to my War's 54%, no crit+ gear on either. Both had 4/4 merits at the time).

[Alkalinehoe]

AGI does affect ranged critical hit rate to my knowledge, in a similar fashion DEX affect melee critical hit rate. with Razed Ruins alone ranged attacks don't achieve the same critical hit rate that melee do (RNG friend parsed at ~44% crit rate with just RR on opposed to my War's 54%, no crit+ gear on either. Both had 4/4 merits at the time).
Nope, DEX affects ranged crit rate.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Then explain how with with Razed Ruins basically capping dDEX Rng was 10% below crit rate of melees with RR?

[Catsby]

Nope, DEX affects ranged crit rate.

This is incorrect. AGI affects it but I can't say if it affects it in the same way that DEX does for melee crit rate. My guess is that it doesn't seeing as everything else ranged attack wise has stronger penalties.

[Neisan_Quetz]

The closest my rng friend ever got to my crit rate while meleeing while using bow was with RR+GH, parsed 69% crit rate (however, he only fired around 80 shots as he showed up late). Mine was 74% with same atma/crit merits, I had no crit+ gear on me at the time (he had sylvan legs+2 iirc). This was in Abyssea Uleg on buffalo, the first case was in Abyssea Miseraux on bugards.

[Alkalinehoe]

Then explain how with with Razed Ruins basically capping dDEX Rng was 10% below crit rate of melees with RR?
A few things could have occured to give you false info:
1. Differences in gear.
2. RNG was not capping dDex.
3. Sample sizes were small.
4. Different Atmas besides RR.



This is incorrect. AGI affects it but I can't say if it affects it in the same way that DEX does for melee crit rate. My guess is that it doesn't seeing as everything else ranged attack wise has stronger penalties.
Care to show some evidence? AGI never affected ranged crit rate, unless they changed something.


The closest my rng friend ever got to my crit rate while meleeing while using bow was with RR+GH, parsed 69% crit rate (however, he only fired around 80 shots as he showed up late). Mine was 74% with same atma/crit merits, I had no crit+ gear on me at the time (he had sylvan legs+2 iirc). This was in Abyssea Uleg on buffalo, the first case was in Abyssea Miseraux on bugards.
Why are you bringing this up? 69% crit rate on a sample size of 80 isn't worthwhile at all. Assuming GH/RR and capped dDex 30 + 20 + 20 = 70%. Add 4% from merits and 3% from Sylvan Bragues +2, 77%.

[Catsby]

Care to show some evidence? AGI never affected ranged crit rate, unless they changed something.


I'm not going to show you a damn thing. I fired close to 10 thousand arrows when I did my testing and I don't feel like doing it again. Here's what you can do though if you refuse to take my word for it;

1) find a relevant target
2) shoot relevant target while not stacking either AGI or DEX until you get a decent sample size( go to like 1000 or so)
3) stack DEX
4) shoot target again until you reach an EQUAL sample size(this is important)
5) stack AGI
6) shoot target again until you have an EQUAL sample again.
7) look astounded when DEX doesn't increase your critical hit rate. maybe toss a chair or something I don't care.

[Alkalinehoe]

I'm not going to show you a damn thing. I fired close to 10 thousand arrows when I did my testing and I don't feel like doing it again. Here's what you can do though if you refuse to take my word for it;

1) find a relevant target
2) shoot relevant target while not stacking either AGI or DEX until you get a decent sample size( go to like 1000 or so)
3) stack DEX
4) shoot target again until you reach an EQUAL sample size(this is important)
5) stack AGI
6) shoot target again until you have an EQUAL sample again.
7) look astounded when DEX doesn't increase your critical hit rate. maybe toss a chair or something I don't care.
Lol, you know you make your argument look poor when you don't even record your results. DEX increases Crit Hit Rate for ranged/melee attacks, it always has.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Cruor buffs + Razed Ruins is capped dDEX on pretty much everything in Abyssea so no that wasn't the issue. My whm/nin has no crit+ gear during tp phase, he has +3 from pants, atmas for the second instance on buffalo were the same except for the third, I had MM he had SA.

The first parse on bugards was ~500 shots 44% crit rate with capped dDEX from RR/SA (he didn't have emp pants at the time) lop off 30% from Razed 4% from merits that leaves 10% crit rate, second had RR+GH, there is some deviance due to small amount of shots but the crit rate doesn't add up if ranged attacks has a dDEX term the same as melee.

[Areola]

7) look astounded when DEX doesn't increase your critical hit rate. maybe toss a chair or something I don't care.

I laughed my ass off when i saw this ^^. But don't mine me please continue.

[Rearden]

Why is this an argument? I bet you all stack DEX for Jishnu's too.

[noodles355]

I'm not going to show you a damn thing. I fired close to 10 thousand arrows when I did my testing and I don't feel like doing it again.
I would personally like to thank you for doing an important test on this matter and then brilliantly not recording any of your data to give to the community. No really, thanks a lot.

Hey guys, I did this really important testing on a multi-thousand sample size which shows different results from what we had previously thought. I just proved this really important fact, however I didnt record any data so have absolutely no proof of my valliant effort, and have nothing to help the rest of the ranger community. You're welcome.

[Catsby]

I would personally like to thank you for doing an important test on this matter and then brilliantly not recording any of your data to give to the community. No really, thanks a lot.

Hey guys, I did this really important testing on a multi-thousand sample size which shows different results from what we had previously thought. I just proved this really important fact, however I didnt record any data so have absolutely no proof of my valliant effort, and have nothing to help the rest of the ranger community. You're welcome.

Go read through the other thread I started. You will find what I did and what I found. It's hardly "really important" and not that complicated. I only tested in the first place because I read a post on one of the FFXI forums suggesting that crit rate, like damn near everything else, is calculated differently for ranged attacks.

[noodles355]

How can you call learning which stat affects crit rate not really important?

[Catsby]

Because RNG has more serious problems than critical hit rate.

[Swords]

Because RNG has more serious problems than critical hit rate.

I concur, its not difficult to crit with ranged attacks as it is anyways. Id rather they rework the damage calculation formula to at least make our 140+ DMG attacks do more damage than DDs with 130 DMG weapons in the optimal conditions.

[noodles355]

Ranger has more problems so finding out the correct stat to boost the rate of a very significant stat (with the addition of Dead Aim and Jishnu's) is still not very important?

Or: Problem A is bigger than problem B, so problem B is "not very important".

That's nice logic, I like it. Hey, curing cancer is more important than curbing third world famine and povety. Therefor curing third world famine and poverty is "not very important".

Increasing haste is more important than increasing Double Attack/Triple Attack. Therefor increasing Double and Triple Attack is not very important.

Atma plays a bigger role to your damage than weaponskill sets. Therefor having a weaponskill set is not very important.

Need me to go on?

[Alkalinehoe]

Ranger has more problems so finding out the correct stat to boost the rate of a very significant stat (with the addition of Dead Aim and Jishnu's) is still not very important?

Or: Problem A is bigger than problem B, so problem B is "not very important".

That's nice logic, I like it. Hey, curing cancer is more important than curbing third world famine and povety. Therefor curing third world famine and poverty is "not very important".

Increasing haste is more important than increasing Double Attack/Triple Attack. Therefor increasing Double and Triple Attack is not very important.

Atma plays a bigger role to your damage than weaponskill sets. Therefor having a weaponskill set is not very important.

Need me to go on?

I've honestly given up trying to talk to most people in this thread. Apart from not recording their "thousands" of samples, I'm surprised some people in this thread can remember to hit enter after every post.

[Catsby]

You guys just want to be angry and to point out flaws. Nobody gave a damn back when I first said I thought I found something now you're pissed that I don't care anymore (but to be honest I didn't care back then either). No I don't have the Kparser logs anymore but guess what? I'm not writing a research paper about critical hit rate and you guys aren't the review board you seem to think you are. If you want to prove you are more neckbearded than I am then go do some testing of your own. Just don't forget to record your results or I'll straw man you into submission ~.^

[Swords]

Ranger has more problems so finding out the correct stat to boost the rate of a very significant stat (with the addition of Dead Aim and Jishnu's) is still not very important?


I can't believe your having difficulty getting critical hits to even try such a sarcastic argument with me. From everything I've seen you post, I doubt you would be satisfied even IF catsby had posted her results. If the argument is that significant to determine if DEX or AGI effects critical hit rate, go test it for yourself. DEX and AGI gear is nowhere near in short supply for RNG shouldn't be hard at all to hit the 20% modifier cap.

[noodles355]

I can't believe your having difficulty getting critical hits to even try such a sarcastic argument with me.Where did I say that?

The fact you don't care which stat boosts critical hit rate is stupid. For example, if AGI boosts crit rate then pieces like Seiryu's Kote and Hachiryu Sune-Ate suddenly become potentially worthwhile. If DEX boosts crit rate, Hachiryu Kote and Byakko's Haiadate could become worthwhile. Outside abyssea you will not have capped crit rate. Melees needed something like 125 dex to cap crit rate on colibri (which have low AGI) at 75, just for refference.

[Alkalinehoe]

Where did I say that?

The fact you don't care which stat boosts critical hit rate is stupid. For example, if AGI boosts crit rate then pieces like Seiryu's Kote and Hachiryu Sune-Ate suddenly become potentially worthwhile. If DEX boosts crit rate, Hachiryu Kote and Byakko's Haiadate could become worthwhile. Outside abyssea you will not have capped crit rate. Melees needed something like 125 dex to cap crit rate on colibri (which have low AGI) at 75, just for refference.

This so much.

Not to mention Catsby thinks he/she is the most trustful person in the world. Please tell me, if i said that BRD debuffs also factored in INT as MACC and I had revealed that I had performed thousands of samples of tests to prove my hypothesis, but failed to save them, would you really find that credible? After all we've ever known about BRD songs only being influenced by CHR and skill+ that I bring up a ridiculous claim that BRD MACC is determined by two stats and when asked to present my information my response is basically, "NO U." That's what you're doing now. You've lost (any) credibility you had when you decided to act like a child.

[Swords]

Where did I say that?

The fact you don't care which stat boosts critical hit rate is stupid. For example, if AGI boosts crit rate then pieces like Seiryu's Kote and Hachiryu Sune-Ate suddenly become potentially worthwhile. If DEX boosts crit rate, Hachiryu Kote and Byakko's Haiadate could become worthwhile. Outside abyssea you will not have capped crit rate. Melees needed something like 125 dex to cap crit rate on colibri (which have low AGI) at 75, just for refference.

Would you sacrifice all your R.Atk/R.Acc/AGI mod gear and kill your damage output just to push out an extra few% on your critical hit rate through DEX?

AGI is tacked onto nearly every piece of RNG gear out there, DEX nowhere near as much. SE has obviously been trying to push RNG's damage through critical hits via AF3 and the new Dead Aim trait. However, I think it would had made much more sense to build RNG around DEX or DEX/AGI setups instead of almost purely AGI if SE had intended DEX to be the determining factor for ranged crits. The only exception to this is the DEX mod for Jishnu's Radiance, but if you take a look at all the other Emp Weapons, there is about 4 or 5 other Emp WS's that have mods that make little sense.

[Catsby]

This so much.

Not to mention Catsby thinks he/she is the most trustful person in the world. Please tell me, if i said that BRD debuffs also factored in INT as MACC and I had revealed that I had performed thousands of samples of tests to prove my hypothesis, but failed to save them, would you really find that credible? After all we've ever known about BRD songs only being influenced by CHR and skill+ that I bring up a ridiculous claim that BRD MACC is determined by two stats and when asked to present my information my response is basically, "NO U." That's what you're doing now. You've lost (any) credibility you had when you decided to act like a child.

Nope. The OP asked if jupiter/thunder staff increased ranged crit rate. Some other posters and myself replied saying it wouldn't. I went a bit further to say if any did it would be wind staff because of the AGI. Some others didn't understand so I briefly explained that months ago I tested base parameters to find the one that boosts ranged crit (since DEX clearly doesn't). Now the thread is about how to fake science to impress people on the internet.

[noodles355]

Would you sacrifice all your R.Atk/R.Acc/AGI mod gear and kill your damage output just to push out an extra few% on your critical hit rate through DEX?Yes, because I understand how critical hits relate to DEX (melee), and you apparantly don't. Adding Dex to your gear set did very little untill you reached a certain value. After that value it shoots up at about 1Dex=1% Crit hit. For example, on Colibri at 75, that sweet spot where 1dex=1%crit was at 107 I believe. Crit rate would cap at 117 Dex. Say you had 77 base dex at 75. You would have a (floored+4% merits) crit rate of 9%. Adding 40 Dex to your set would only raise your crit rate by 5% to 14% total. Adding another 10 dex on top of that would increase your crit rate by 10%, to the cap of 24%.

This, for example, is why people used Byakko's Haiadate for Raging Rush over even things like Hachiryu Haiadate depending on the mob. It wasn't for the accuracy, it was because with their normal WS gear they would be hovering around 105-110 dex, and haiadate's 15DEX would give a significant boost to their criritcal hit rate and thus weaponskill damage.

So yes, if you were near that sweet spot where 1dex=1%crit, then yes, I would definitely concider swapping arr/att/str/wsc mods for dex. The same applies to ranged attacks. And this is why it's important. We should naturally have a decent amount of AGI in our WS set, similar to how most melee WS sets tend to have a decent amount of dex, even though they have geared for STR. If AGI affects crit rate for ranged attacks, then, similar to how byakko's haiadate often beat out hachiryu haiadate (at capped acc) on raging rush, it's likely high AGI pieces like empyrean feet will beat out other ratk/racc/etc pieces like relic feet.

If Dead Aim is ever changed to apply to ranged weaponskills then the boost from that increased hit rate will be even more significant, and if you are getting close to that AGI sweet spot, AGI gear should crap all over acc/att/str/wsc mod pieces. If Dex affects our crit rate, then those high-agi pieces like empyrean feet and skote become pretty worthless for crit WSs.

I hope I explained that clearly enough.

[Alkalinehoe]

Nope. The OP asked if jupiter/thunder staff increased ranged crit rate. Some other posters and myself replied saying it wouldn't. I went a bit further to say if any did it would be wind staff because of the AGI. Some others didn't understand so I briefly explained that months ago I tested base parameters to find the one that boosts ranged crit (since DEX clearly doesn't). Now the thread is about how to fake science to impress people on the internet. Here, I'll fill in the blanks for you.
1. OP asked if the Crit Rate+ applied only to the staff.
2. A few people confirmed it did.
3. You confirmed it did, but also added by your own weird sense of logic and missing test results stated that AGI governs ranged crit rate.
4. I said it didn't.
5. You replied again saying it did, but did not know how much.
6. I gave some examples of why people believed their crit rate was lower.
7. People tried to reinforce their opinion with low sample sizes. (One poster was even wearing GH, an AGI+ Superior atma and was complaining about his low crit hit rate lol)
8. You got all mayad and butthurt when I didn't take your word and refused to show the "10 thousand arrow" sample you so vigorously worked on but forgot to save.
9. Noodles drops in and questions your credibility when you can't even save your tests.
10. owait ranged crit% is not important anymore go awayz!!!

[Swords]

Noodles I'm entirely familiar with the concepts and formulas of DEX, I do however know that outside of a few hard to come by pieces of gear, RNG does not get access to excessive amounts of high DEX gear that supports ranged attacks like they do with AGI. If you don't have access to pieces like Byakkos Haidate, Hahiryu Kote, Kirin's Osode and/or Loki's Kaftan you would have to give up many more gearslots to hit the "Sweet Spot" and cap your ranged crit rate, and realistically the average player probably only has Loki's or a KO.

Keeping that in mind, what good would it do you, to go all out with DEX gear to cap your ranged critical hit rate if your normal ranged damage falls significantly by say 1/3 or more. The whole concept of using DEX as a modifier for ranged critical hits is extremely double-edged for RNG, unlike normal melee classes. Hence why I said it makes much more sense to believe AGI affects ranged critical hit rate instead of DEX, especially where 90% of RNG and ranged gear has been built around AGI.

I hope that clarifies what I've been trying to convey.

[noodles355]

You state it would make more sense, and be more useful if AGI affected ranged critical hits instead of DEX. As I pointed, and you confirm above, crit builds would be more viable with AGI as the crit modifier. This we both agree on.

Yet you state finding out which stat affects critical hit rate as not very important. It is pretty damn important. If it's with DEX, then as you mention without key items like loki's/osode, byakkos and hachiryu, it would be very difficult to work and probably not very worthwhile. If the modifier is AGI, then it opens up more options as the AGI target for the critical sweet spot would be easier to reach, and many pieces we thought useless would become the best pieces for damage under certain conditions. On the other hand if it is DEX, then DEX builds would be key to high damage Jishnu's, as it both increases crit rate and damage through the 60% WSC. If it's AGI, then you would have to weigh up AGI (for crit rate) and DEX for damage, in a similar way to comparing Byakkos (for crit) or hachiryu (for str) for melee WSs.

Learning which stat increases ranged attack critical hit rate is important, and should play a large factor in gearing your WS set if you use Jishnu's Radiance.

[Catsby]

Here, I'll fill in the blanks for you.
8. You got all mayad and butthurt when I didn't take your word and refused to show the "10 thousand arrow" sample you so vigorously worked on but forgot to save.
9. Noodles drops in and questions your credibility when you can't even save your tests.
10. owait ranged crit% is not important anymore go awayz!!!

I wasn't even mad and it's pretty hard to show off something you tossed months ago.
Credibility on an online forum for a MMORPG? really now.
Crit rate isn't that important of a topic since 1) RNG has been broken for years now and crit is only one of many problems it has. 2) As swords pointed out AGI is in no short supply for RNG. It's on nearly every piece of gear a ranger would wear and further validates the theory. 3) In the other thread people are suggesting the crit enhancement doesn't work on weaponskills.

[Swords]

You state it would make more sense, and be more useful if AGI affected ranged critical hits instead of DEX. As I pointed, and you confirm above, crit builds would be more viable with AGI as the crit modifier. This we both agree on.


The whole reason I've been debating the entire thing to begin with, is because there is nothing to figure out. AGI has always been the determining factor for just about everything related to ranged attacks including the critical hit rate. Anything I've posted previously pushes how DEX and Ranged attacks just don't mix like it does with close ranged melee. Yet you've been seemingly adamant about even trying to test this out for yourself, and would rather hold onto the possibility that DEX is still a determining factor.

Like I stated in a previous post, SE has been pushing the critical hit damage gear for RNG ever since Abyssea came out, there should be no argument between us there. With that in mind, SE would have given RNG alot more DEX gear instead of drowning us in AGI gear, IF DEX really was the stat for ranged crits.

And with all that AGI gear in mind, it shouldn't even be a challenge to cap your ranged crit. rate in or out of Abyssea.

[Alkalinehoe]

Kind of like how there are tons of CHR gear for DNC? Does that mean CHR affects their crit rate? No, It's used as a mod for a JA. Same goes for AGI. AGI is a mod for nearly every WS available to RNG, it doesn't have to be more than that. You guys are merely assuming since a lot of RNG gear has AGI it must be the stat that does everything for RNG without having any proof.

And I bring up credibility because you want people to believe you when you can't even cough up some evidence to support your claims and then freak out when people don't take you seriously.

[Catsby]

And with all that AGI gear in mind, it shouldn't even be a challenge to cap your ranged crit. rate in or out of Abyssea.

What was the number of DEX over target AGI for capping crit rate? Something like +50 if I remember correctly. I wonder if that rule applies to ranged crits.

[Catsby]

Kind of like how there are tons of CHR gear for DNC? Does that mean CHR affects their crit rate? No, It's used as a mod for a JA. Same goes for AGI. AGI is a mod for nearly every WS available to RNG, it doesn't have to be more than that. You guys are merely assuming since a lot of RNG gear has AGI it must be the stat that does everything for RNG without having any proof.

And I bring up credibility because you want people to believe you when you can't even cough up some evidence to support your claims and then freak out when people don't take you seriously.

That's not a good enough analogy because crit rate isn't by job. Melee strikes from a dancer are similarly to those by a warrior. Also, there's info out there suggesting AGI modifies ranged accuracy in the same fashion that DEX modifies melee accuracy.

I don't want people to believe me. I only brought up what I noticed during my own testing and encouraged others to test further since I really don't care to do so myself. I also didn't "freak out".

[Alkalinehoe]

Of course AGI modifies RACC lol, that's always been known. When you say things like a fact, you are implying you want people to believe you. There was no notice of "by results of my own testing...." to clarify why exactly you thought the AGI+ from the Wind Staff would increase your crit rate on RNG.

Example of you implying it as a fact:

This is incorrect. AGI affects it but I can't say if it affects it in the same way that DEX does for melee crit rate.
Many more can be found but for the sake of time, I'll leave it at that one.

You obviously do want people to believe you but got called out on your "missing" tests to back up your findings and all you could provide was "do your own tests."

[Swords]

What was the number of DEX over target AGI for capping crit rate? Something like +50 if I remember correctly. I wonder if that rule applies to ranged crits.

Yeah it was speculated +50 over the mobs AGI. Since Abyssean mobs are normal average mobs, it's super easy to hit that with Atma's and Cruor buffs. Personally I just got done burning through a couple of stacks of arrows testing both with AGI coming out on top by 26 crits to 20 with DEX. Admittedly I had hoped to have a wider margin, I'll probably end up doing another round to see if I can't get a better assesment.

[Catsby]

Of course AGI modifies RACC lol, that's always been known.

Great. My hypothesis has face validity then. DEX modifies melee acc and melee crit. AGI may easily follow a similar pattern for ranged attacks.


When you say things like a fact, you are implying you want people to believe you.

No I don't. When I say things like a fact it's because they contradict or support what's being argued.


There was no notice of "by results of my own testing...." to clarify why exactly you thought the AGI+ from the Wind Staff would increase your crit rate on RNG.

I was discussing the pattern found on that line of staves. If AGI enhances ranged crit rate (by my understanding it does) then the wind staff would by extension. not because it's special or enhances ranged crit on it's own.



Example of you implying it as a fact:



Because according to what I understand this is true.



You obviously do want people to believe you but got called out on your "missing" tests to back up your findings

I hardly got called out and my tests aren't missing they're deleted. Intentionally.



and all you could provide was "do your own tests."

That's how science works brah. I can tell you what I did and approximations of what I got but if you have a problem with any of it then it's your responsibility to experiment on your own. I don't recall saying anything was absolute (but if I did, WHOOPS!) but only that things were incorrect.

[Catsby]

Yeah it was speculated +50 over the mobs AGI. Since Abyssean mobs are normal average mobs, it's super easy to hit that with Atma's and Cruor buffs. Personally I just got done burning through a couple of stacks of arrows testing both with AGI coming out on top by 26 crits to 20 with DEX. Admittedly I had hoped to have a wider margin, I'll probably end up doing another round to see if I can't get a better assesment.

That's pretty much what I did. I just went down the list of parameters stacking each one to like 250ish and looked at what I got for ranged crits. Every time it was around 10% except for AGI, which made it around 20%

[Swords]

I didn't quite go that high with the stats. I used the same gear setup with both and used Kirin for AGI and Omnipotent for DEX along with single cruor buffs. Overall DEX was 79+96, and AGI was 87+86 when I tested each setup, but I figured that was more than enough to accurately test.

[Alkalinehoe]

Great. My hypothesis has face validity then. DEX modifies melee acc and melee crit. AGI may easily follow a similar pattern for ranged attacks.
Why does that easily follow a similar pattern? STR gives Ranged Attack and Melee Attack, by that pattern, DEX gives Melee Crit rate and Ranged Crit rate.... There's another pattern for ya.


No I don't. When I say things like a fact it's because they contradict or support what's being argued.
And the whole point of saying things like a fact against contradicting opinions is because you want people to believe your side. Really now...



I hardly got called out and my tests aren't missing they're deleted. Intentionally.
Why would you delete a 10,000 arrow sample? Was it filling up your HDD? Not to mention if you really did uncover evidence of AGI modifying ranged crit rate instead of the widely known and tested belief that DEX increases ranged crits you would think you would save this info and share it ya? This is exactly why me and noodles are suspicious of your "tests."


That's how science works brah. I can tell you what I did and approximations of what I got but if you have a problem with any of it then it's your responsibility to experiment on your own. I don't recall saying anything was absolute (but if I did, WHOOPS!) but only that things were incorrect.
But why do our tests when we have no reason to believe the current formula is incorrect? Someone walked in, claimed something different with no evidence at all (other than their word at this point), and we should go out and test it? I could walk into a the BRD forum and say MND had an effect on song MACC, how many BRDs would genuinely go test this out without any proof on my own? If you had originally posted with your parse and showed me evidence of AGI affecting crit rate, I would have tested it, but that's not what happened. It's your responsibility to use evidence to back up your facts when you are trying to present new information that is attempting to debunk old and solid evidence.

edit: plus the whole you not knowing AGI affected RACC thing makes it seem fishy. I mean, what RNG doesn't know that?

[Catsby]

Why does that easily follow a similar pattern? STR gives Ranged Attack and Melee Attack, by that pattern, DEX gives Melee Crit rate and Ranged Crit rate.... There's another pattern for ya.

No. Because attack isn't accuracy.



And the whole point of saying things like a fact against contradicting opinions is because you want people to believe your side. Really now...


Wait, what?



Why would you delete a 10,000 arrow sample? Was it filling up your HDD? Not to mention if you really did uncover evidence of AGI modifying ranged crit rate instead of the widely known and tested belief that DEX increases ranged crits you would think you would save this info and share it ya? This is exactly why me and noodles are suspicious of your "tests."


I don't remember what we were originally doing but me and a friend who just finished Gandiva went out to test something with the linkshell. I was watching him in parse when I noticed his crit rate was alarmingly low despite having RR and GH. I asked my linkshell if DEX affected ranged crit rate. They all said it did but nearly all the other Damager dealers in the parse had a % way higher.

After the testing I came here and talked about it in the other thread. People were pretty meh about it so I figured it was old news. At that point I deleted the parse files.



But why do our tests when we have no reason to believe the current formula is incorrect? Someone walked in, claimed something different with no evidence at all (other than their word at this point), and we should go out and test it? I could walk into a the BRD forum and say MND had an effect on song MACC, how many BRDs would genuinely go test this out without any proof on my own? If you had originally posted with your parse and showed me evidence of AGI affecting crit rate, I would have tested it, but that's not what happened. It's your responsibility to use evidence to back up your facts when you are trying to present new information that is attempting to debunk old and solid evidence.


Like I said. I thought it was old news.



edit: plus the whole you not knowing AGI affected RACC thing makes it seem fishy. I mean, what RNG doesn't know that?

just verifying.

[Catsby]

I didn't quite go that high with the stats. I used the same gear setup with both and used Kirin for AGI and Omnipotent for DEX along with single cruor buffs. Overall DEX was 79+96, and AGI was 87+86 when I tested each setup, but I figured that was more than enough to accurately test.

It might be. I don't know how people find the parameters of various monsters.

[Swords]

Give or take the mobs job and any characteristic traits related to the family of the mob, its pretty safe to say non-NM mobs pretty much have equivilant stats compared to players

[Alkalinehoe]

No. Because attack isn't accuracy.
No because accuracy isn't crit rate.




Wait, what?
idk




I don't remember what we were originally doing but me and a friend who just finished Gandiva went out to test something with the linkshell. I was watching him in parse when I noticed his crit rate was alarmingly low despite having RR and GH. I asked my linkshell if DEX affected ranged crit rate. They all said it did but nearly all the other Damager dealers in the parse had a % way higher.

After the testing I came here and talked about it in the other thread. People were pretty meh about it so I figured it was old news. At that point I deleted the parse files.

I honestly wouldn't take a lot seriously from these forums. There's an alarming number of trolls or players who don't know what they're doing. I can see know why you think it would be old news, but still, after everyone in your LS saying DEX but reading responses here saying AGI, I personally wouldn't think it would be old news.


Give or take the mobs job and any characteristic traits related to the family of the mob, its pretty safe to say non-NM mobs pretty much have equivilant stats compared to players
Yeah most mobs have slightly higher stats that players. I remember most end game mobs at 75 had a CHR stat at around 110, which is why many BRDs tried to get a cummulative 120 CHR when debuffing them. I think BLMs tried to get like 130 or so. These were all of course level 90 mobs too, so they honestly aren't that far off from players. It was usually the level penalties of a 90 vs 75 that was so intimidating back then.

[noodles355]

And with all that AGI gear in mind, it shouldn't even be a challenge to cap your ranged crit. rate [...] out of Abyssea.Weak mobs at 75 had around 60-70 AGI. You needed around 110-120 DEX to cap crit rate. It's pretty fair to assume mobs you'd be fighting at level 90 (Lv. 95-100ish) would have 80-90 AGI (This is a number that most people use when theory crafting). That would mean you would need 130-140AGI to cap crit rate. In a standard Good ranger TP set, that doesn't use either Skote or AF3 feet, you're looking at around 100-110 AGI. You can get that to 130-140ish with pieces like Skotes, AF3 feet, scout's belt, etc, but you're statement of "it shouldn't even be a challenge" is wrong. Obtaining the gear is not a challenge, deciding to use pure AGI gear (Af3 feet and skote for example) over better damage gear (Blood Fng. Gnt/AF3 hands depending, and Relic Feet +1) is a challenge.
You, like so many other posters who don't actually look into ger sets and stats enough, would do well to shut up and stop posting false infomation without even a hint of research.

The argument of "There's a lot of AGI on rng gear so it probably affects crit rate" is very weak. There's a lot of Vit on drg gear, even AF3, yet Vit is only useful for Jump (Not High Jump, Super Jump, spirit Jump or Soul Jump... just Jump). As mentioned, Dnc has a lot of gear with chr. Because Chr is useful for healing. Thf has gear with Chr, because of dancing edge. Drk has gear with int and mnd, mnd because it's a mod on guillotine and int because of their elemental magic. Ranger has a lot of AGI gear. All RNG WSs except Jishnu's have AGI mods. AGI increases Racc. These two are reason enough to put AGI on a lot of RNG gear. It's not reason enough to argue that AGI affects crit rate for ranged attacks.
Furthermore, you say "Rng gear has lots of agi but little dex". That is not accurate either. Yes, artifact, relic and empyrean maybe, however most of ranger's other gear is shared by other light armor jobs like cor, thf, dnc, etc and generally has a good amount of dex on too. Aurore, Skadi, Denali, etc.

It really is a simple test to do. Go out for a merit alliance in abyssea. Fight a decent number of monsters with an atma which has neither crit rate, dex or agi on. Fight the same amount of monsters with atma of the kirin (agi+) then fight same again with a high dex atma (omnipotent). Parse resullts. It should be fairly obvious as one should raise your crit rate by at least 10%. Fight strong enough (IT dom op) monsters so that cruor buffs alone aren't enough to cap dDex (or dAGI, whichever it turns out to be).

The only reasonable argument so far for AGI affecting ranged crit rate is "It;s more logical". To that Iw ould reply "Hi, are you new to FFXI? Are you new to SquareEnix?" Logic means jack diddly. This is SE we're talking about.

You may have done a test but if you can't provide data then it is meaningless. I could come and say "I've done thousands of tests with CHR and enmity increase and decrease and noticed that CHR does affect enmity." But if i dont have proof to back pup these claims then they are completely worthless.

[noodles355]

Note: I am not saying, nor have ever said "No, that's wrong, ranged crit rate is determined by dex". There is as much proof that it's affected by dex as there is that it's affected by agi: none. No tests with reported data. Untill someone is able to prove it one way or the other, I will be contesting any claims that it is one or the other because "it makes more sense".

People should never state opnions as fact. "There's a lot of AGI on rng gear so it's probably affected by agi" is an opinion and really means "There's a lot of agi gear, so I think it's probably affected by agi." This is reasonable idea, but no where near enough to make a sound conclusion.

[Catsby]

I think what he was going for was AGI isn't that hard to find if you are trying to cap crit rate.

[Rearden]

I don't think anyone assumes 80-90 AGI for xp levels mobs at 90, but please, continue making numbers up.

[Catsby]

I don't think anyone assumes 80-90 AGI for xp levels mobs at 90, but please, continue making numbers up.

What are the real numbers then?

[noodles355]

I think what he was going for was AGI isn't that hard to find if you are trying to cap crit rate.And as I just said, that's irrleevant. That it's easier to get AGI gear does not mean AGI affects crit rate.

I don't think anyone assumes 80-90 AGI for xp levels mobs at 90, but please, continue making numbers up.Concidering a Lv82 colibri has 67 AGI (proven), a job combo that also has 67 AGI at lv82 should have (by mapping the stat increases per level so far) somewhere a bit over 80 AGI at Lv100 and that Colibri are Red Mage which have naturally low AGI, I would say it's pretty fair to assume somewhere around 80-90 AGI for an IT exp mob. But please, continue to debunk the idea without putting any sort of useful thought into it at all. it's pro.

[Rearden]

Quoting 67AGI on Colibri to those of us who geared for that as the standard for three years is kind of silly, hence my original post anyway.

Assumed number for XP mobs is 93 AGI, NM's in the 97-100 range.

Assumptions for 95-99cap put NM's at 105-110AGI which is going to make our dDEX builds difficult to maintain under current gear sets unless new stuff becomes available or augments/crit+ gear is also added to supplement this.

Questions.

[noodles355]

Interesting to see you think it's higher than 80-90. Your first reply suggested to me that you thought it would be lower, and that my argument was wrong. Being evern higher only further strengthens my point.
To be honest when ever I'm trying to prove a silly statement (such as you should easilly cap crit rate from [AGI or DEX, whichever it is] outside abyssea) I'm always conservative and give the benefit of the doubt, so that there's no room for them to shout that I'm being bias against them.

If people are finding XP mobs to be somewhere around 90-95, then capping dDex (or dAGI, whichever it is) outside abyssea will be even harder, needing 140-145 (And a normal TP set having around 110AGI)