Why Make Jobs useless ?

[Neonii]

Help me understand why the game does not accommodate all jobs in a meaningful way in Abyssea?. My favorite job (SMN) is locked out of a lot of the content. I understand that I can level another job but that is more of a make do measure than fun. Is any consideration given to customer satisfaction when designing such major content? As a customer is it unreasonable to want to enjoy my main in all aspects of the game? Players who enjoy unpopular/not as useful jobs are locked into playing alternative jobs which are not nearly as fun just to be included. This is not intended to be a rant thread. My intentions are to voice my concerns as to why such major content does not accommodate all jobs in an equal manner. I would suggest that all jobs in the game be considered and the content itself be balanced to fit all of the jobs in the game.

[Pharaun]

What you want is literally impossible with the way the game currently is, and no amount of tweaking or balancing will fix it. The biggest problem is that it is the player base that ultimately decides on the strategies and tactics used in the events and often do things differently than how the dev team envisioned.

I understand why your upset since one of my favorite jobs is Rng, but I think I've been on the job once in the last year because unfortunately it's just not useful in most situations and I have to accept that.

[Sparthos]

All content doesn't suit all jobs.

SMN is a job that specializes against strong enemies and as you've seen in Abyssea, nothing is really hard enough to field SMNs. The proc issue is the other major hurdle as the jobs with procs are more than enough to kill most mobs.

Your job isn't alone in being snubbed by Abyssea (RNG PLD BST DRG DRK RDM PUP COR and BRD to some extent) given that the bare minimum is more than enough to clear 90% of content. I think SE took into consideration the pre-Abyssean environment and decided to make casual content and a place where anyone could become powerful with the correct key items. Sadly, once the proc system became fully known and Heroes (90cap) tipped things towards being a joke, certain classes started getting shaved off and the system boiled down to a mechanical process of getting procs and sorting drops.

SE cannot promote all jobs to be equal given that well... all jobs aren't equal. The best they can do is to create environments where certain jobs are good for certain events. Variety, as it were.

Right now there is very little variety so it's natural to see a spike in complaints given well... Final Fantasy XI is currently Abyssea Fantasy 3: Blue it and Brew it.

Lucky for you, Voidwatch (and its future additions) will be SMN friendly events given the relative danger of being in AOE range outside Abyssea. A world without Abyssea will benefit alot of classes currently on the downturn.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

My favorite job (SMN) is locked out of a lot of the content.How so?

Superfluous text.

[Yugl]

To make the rest of classes useful.

[RAIST]

Fortunatley, we have a lot of pet jobs in my main LS, so BST, PUP , and SMN get a little more inclusion than they seem to get elsewhere. So I can't really relate to this sentiment too much personally, but I have seen a lot of people voice it elsewhere. There is a kinda a funny quirk about the current state of the game though....I'm doing almost all the older content on SMN now. Before, it used to be BLM, WHM, melee, or GTFO. Now with the low man strats for the older stuff, I'm living on SMN outside abyssea more than ever.

Guess in the end it balances out. But it does kinda stink if you want to do the fun stuff in aby on SMN and the people you're doing it with aren't to enthused about it. But... on the upside, SMN can solo a bunch of crap. Takes longer, but you can do a lot by yourself.

[Neonii]

How so?

Superfluous text.

Thanks everyone for responding to my question. Now to answer yours I have been told by several ls to level something else if I wanted to attend ls events. I am relatively new to FFX1 and spent well over a year leveling SMN and it is the job I really enjoy and know best. I actually finished leveling my sub job whm to attend events and it was pure he double matchsticks. I burned out very quickly on whm from being expected to be an expert on a job I had barely had an opportunity to level. Playing became more of a chore than fun. So now I find myself faced with leveling a new character instead of enjoying my SMN. IMO content like Abyssea should have a niche for every job. Now if Voidwatch would just catch on in my ls.

[Ravenmore]

Don't go with LSes. Find a few like minded people ask around. Its been like this since way before abyssea was even a thought. Really everything in abyssea can be done with 6 or lower, and sometimes the more you take the worse off you'll be. If you can find people that you have fun with who cares how long it will take you to finish gear. Pugs suck even when they don't wipe and can kill, proc they still suck. Now going with a few friends while having fun is better then just getting gear.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Thanks everyone for responding to my question. Now to answer yours I have been told by several ls to level something else if I wanted to attend ls events. I am relatively new to FFX1 and spent well over a year leveling SMN and it is the job I really enjoy and know best. I actually finished leveling my sub job whm to attend events and it was pure he double matchsticks. I burned out very quickly on whm from being expected to be an expert on a job I had barely had an opportunity to level. Playing became more of a chore than fun. So now I find myself faced with leveling a new character instead of enjoying my SMN. IMO content like Abyssea should have a niche for every job. Now if Voidwatch would just catch on in my ls.You need a different LS. Anyone who wont take a job that can put out 2k+ outside of abyssea and 4k+ inside every 45 seconds, plus buff the whole party is a moron.

[Raxiaz]

Yeah, I don't know how the hell you're not going to abyssea. Seems like every EXP group I go to has at least one SMN.

[DebbieGibson]

4k+ inside every 45 seconds, plus buff the whole party is a moron.

Do you really think this is a benefit?

[Raxiaz]

4k+ damage = faster kills = faster EXP.

Buffing the whole party at a time makes the fights go smoother.

Do you really think that post was necessary?

[Bubeeky]

I've seen every job be useful...it's not SE's fault that the players create unwritten rules that <insert thought-to-be-useless job here> can't be helpful in some way...in low-manning content, my friends and I have included a ton of various jobs, including smn, most of the time to great effect :)

[Neonii]

I was more speaking of events and Content geared towards collecting Atma and cool gear ect. On my server even Pick-Up groups will rarely invite a SMN to any NM type group. And as for unwritten rules has consideration been given to the fact that they create the very folks who don't know their job often complained about? By accepting only particular jobs newer folks may feel compelled to go level those very jobs with out the time and support needed to really master a job. Maybe it would be better to welcome all jobs and allow players to put their best job forward. For example, I am a very inexperienced white mage but I can hold my own with any summoner requirements.

[DebbieGibson]

4k+ damage = faster kills = faster EXP.

Buffing the whole party at a time makes the fights go smoother.

but not really since it is 99% of the time never needed so whats the point of having smn there?
downsides of having smn:

1)you might have to share the drops with them. Since they made no meaningful contribution because you would have won anyway, you're essentially giving away your drops.

2) you may have to wait on them to show up delaying your progress

upsides of having a smn:

1) you kill faster, but who cares since you were gonna kill it anyway. You could kill faster with a lv50rdm too, doesn't mean you should bring them.

Extra bodies that don't make or break a fight are a negative effect overall.

[Aurara]

4k+ damage = faster kills = faster EXP.

Buffing the whole party at a time makes the fights go smoother.

Do you really think that post was necessary?

brd cor whm DDx3, kills faster than a pt of:

brd cor whm smn DDx2

[Neonii]

but not really since it is 99% of the time never needed so whats the point of having smn there?
downsides of having smn:

1)you might have to share the drops with them. Since they made no meaningful contribution because you would have won anyway, you're essentially giving away your drops.

2) you may have to wait on them to show up delaying your progress

upsides of having a smn:

1) you kill faster, but who cares since you were gonna kill it anyway. You could kill faster with a lv50rdm too, doesn't mean you should bring them.

Extra bodies that don't make or break a fight are a negative effect overall.

This is an excellent illustration of the point of this discussion thank you for posting . Seeing how unpopular jobs have to accept the collective attitude of fellow players, why not add some mechanism to allow all jobs to have an equal shot at abysesea? For example, why not add to existing ways to trigger weakness? Take blue proc why not add a corresponding bp as a way of triggering it? maybe Chaotic Strike during blunt time. Specific magical bp could address yellow. That way when a SMN is planning to kite Tonberry Lieje for the sash they could plan to go during blunt time. I only added examples for smn as I am most familiar with it but im sure the other unpopular jobs could have abyssea specific tweaks also. IMO since Abyssea in particular has the current best gear in the game its only fair to empower all jobs to form their own static and low man groups. Abyssea should be a fun playground vs a chore to get completed on a job one is not good at or does not enjoy.

[Greatguardian]

There has never, in the history of FFXI, been a single Endgame event that was equally accessible and beneficial to every job in the game at the same time. Are some events more accessible to Summoner than others? Definitely. For a long time, they were the ideal DD on Odin and things like ToAU HNMs before they were totally figured out. Does that mean we should be changing Abyssea for them just because they're not necessary? No way.

Also, 4k damage every 45 seconds is not the least bit impressive and pretty much every DD on the planet should be doing tons more damage. It only looks impressive because most pickup DDs are absolute trash, don't grab Cruor buffs, and don't even have Razed Ruins.

[Delsus]

This isnt SE making the jobs useless its the playerbase 90% of the time. SE has visions for what they want jobs to do then the players dont see the same for example a DRG with decent gear and merits can be a good DD however the gear (at 75) was hard to get, they needed things like homam and askar, because not many had this gear (and with the nerfs) people were saying DRG was a bad DD.

Another example of the players making unwritten rules was with NIN, SE intended NIN to be a DD, but the players found out that using both utsusemi ichi and ni and haste (gear and spell), they could keep shadows up easily, there became the unwitten rule than NIN is a tank.

I do feel your pain because my lvl 90s are DRG SCH and COR, which these days arent that great in abyssea, people dont want DRG cos it cant proc much, they feel they dont need COR buffs and its not great at DD, and SCH is the exeption because its SE not giving em c5 that makes people not want em, also they can only proc on T3 and 4 spells naturaly so people think they should just get a BLM for those procs.

In short yes there are problems with SE making some jobs useless but the main problem is the players wanting to do as much as possible with a smaller group, they just think if you are dead weight (not a WAR, SAM, NIN, WHM, BLM) then GTFO and lvl somthing useful, when in SE's eyes all jobs have uses.

[DebbieGibson]

SE should have made them more useful in abyssea

[Byrth]

I wouldn't say that the jobs are useless, events just call for certain types of jobs.

SMN, RNG, and COR can't get the time of day in Abyssea, but they're awesome in Voidwatch.
BLU is useful (for grellow proccing and Charged Whisker farming) in Abyssea, but they're pretty shitty in Voidwatch.

There are some jobs that seem to get the lion's share of usefulness (Black Mage, Warrior, White Mage), but that's generally because they're strategically fundamental. Things like having BLMs proc in Abyssea are a little excessive, but the job would have been as unloved there as the COR/RNG/SMN if they hadn't.

If I were to name a job that has no real strategic uses at the moment, it would be Dragoon. Dragoon's strategic usefulness at the moment hinges on Angon and Ryunohige (aka, bring one for a zerg and Ryunohige DRGs will eat your DD-land cake). Outside of those two things, they kinda have no niche.

[Sparthos]

This isnt SE making the jobs useless its the playerbase 90% of the time. SE has visions for what they want jobs to do then the players dont see the same for example a DRG with decent gear and merits can be a good DD however the gear (at 75) was hard to get, they needed things like homam and askar, because not many had this gear (and with the nerfs) people were saying DRG was a bad DD.

Another example of the players making unwritten rules was with NIN, SE intended NIN to be a DD, but the players found out that using both utsusemi ichi and ni and haste (gear and spell), they could keep shadows up easily, there became the unwitten rule than NIN is a tank.

I do feel your pain because my lvl 90s are DRG SCH and COR, which these days arent that great in abyssea, people dont want DRG cos it cant proc much, they feel they dont need COR buffs and its not great at DD, and SCH is the exeption because its SE not giving em c5 that makes people not want em, also they can only proc on T3 and 4 spells naturaly so people think they should just get a BLM for those procs.

In short yes there are problems with SE making some jobs useless but the main problem is the players wanting to do as much as possible with a smaller group, they just think if you are dead weight (not a WAR, SAM, NIN, WHM, BLM) then GTFO and lvl somthing useful, when in SE's eyes all jobs have uses.

So it's not SEs fault that RDM/SCH can't heal in Abyssea because they inflated HP without giving these classes the tools to properly operate? Theres a reason they gave WHM Cure VI and it was to make the often disputed purist healing class unquestionably the best option.

SE knew exactly what they were doing when Abyssea was designed. The goal was to make an endgame where anyone could win the game and that meant chipping away at the old establishment - which meant BRD/COR/RDM/PLD among other classes had to fall from grace.

Atma were intentionally designed to downplay the importance of buffers, HP levels were inflated to give DD the opportunity to "tank" with proper atmas, azure lights were designed to increase popularity of the often shunned mage classes (BLM, BLU), ruby lights were designed to discourage zerg tactics and amber designed to reward people for using the oft-ignored elemental weaponskills.

SE's vision was to shatter the old idea of endgame and replace it with a world where small groups could dominate and so the proc system was born. The only problem stems from the fact that the system wasn't completely random and had a clear-cut pattern to it. Once items like discernment were released, things became mechanical. You proc, you get drops.

Once the pattern was figured out well....... it's as you see now. WAR/NIN/BLM/BLU/WHM/MNK and you've got the game beat.

On NIN and DRG? Nin wasn't that good of a DD at inception so the playerbase fashioned the job into a tank because well... PLD was the only option back then. In that case, SE had no idea what they wanted to do with NIN cause it was clear from the highly expensive throwing items that the job wasn't supposed to be throwing anything often.

DRG? It's only since Drakesbane that the job has soared into the upper echelons of DD though one could argue that the adjustments did alot of break the stigma of DRG being a subpar DD. In addition, TOAUs piercing weak endgame made DRG a logical option in addition to the 2hander patch.

The problem with DRG is that the class has never been wanted at endgame barring an Angon.

[Malamasala]

I still think too many people think the only way to be popular is damage. Summoner is perfectly fine with their damage, and they are far behind all other jobs. The thing is that we have wards to make up for it... just that SE still haven't fixed them.

It is such an insult that SE went around and added COR "to have more support jobs" than just BRD, but never fleshed out SMN to be another support job. The signals SE keep sending are "You are not DDs", "You are not support", "You are not melee", and it leaves us that we are apparently white mages with cure IV from sub.

2003 to 2011... and we are still treated as a subjob class by the people who made the game. Might as well rename the job to "healer slave" so nobody gets the wrong impression and thinks we can take a DD slot or anything.

[Alhanelem]

They don't "make jobs useless." The community decides that. Summoner isn't useless, it just overlaps with specialists, which makes them picked only when the specialist isn't avialable; it also doesn't have enough about it that is unique that can be put to good use on a consistent basis.

Also they err too heavily on the side of caution with pet jobs for fear of making them too powerful, as pets automatically have many inherent advantages. PUP eventually did become a pretty decent DD, BST has gotten better, as has DRG, SMN has only gotten sidegrades (e.g. new stuff that's cool but doesn't really increase its power much) and niche powers (e.g. 2hour summons). Splitting BP attacks and non-attacks to seperate timers was nice, but it wasn't enough- SMN is always playing catch up. As much as I disagree with some people about how inferior it is, it really does need some love.

[DebbieGibson]

They don't "make jobs useless."

How do they not? Smn can't do damage like the DDs, smn can't proc like blm and blu and nin, smn can't heal like whm, smn can't support like brd. How is that not useless?

If SE would make smn BP do 50k damage every 45 seconds then people would use them for DD.
If SE would make smn proc like blm then people would use them to proc.
If SE would give smn cure 5 then people would use them to heal.
if SE would give smn TA+30% BP people would use them for buffing.

Unfortunately they have none of that, so how is that the community deciding they're useless?

[Byrth]

It would be silly to say Summoner is useless in its current form. They have several events and situations where they're very obviously the best buffer and the best damage source. It's just that the swing from "we needs a summoner" to "go change your job, because summoner is terrible here" is a lot more dramatic in the case of Summoner, and the latter case covers all of Abyssea and Dynamis.

[Luvbunny]

SMN is not entirely useless in abysea. Sure, most things can be done with a solid group of 3-6 people, and the core group would be whm, a tank (ninja, thief or dancer), blm, with addition of war, blue or bard, and back up tank. Summoner can easily become a back up tank, and a DD. With minikin, ducal and razed ruin (or elemental atma for garuda/leviathan), Summoner can easily become a solid back up tank when the main party wiped - yes it can happen sometimes - and it is nice to know there is another job that can easily hold the NM for a bit while the rest unweakened.

Yes the SMN still has many problems, namely because as it is now, it is a bit unclear what it's suppose to do. It can do a little bit of everything but not the best at one main thing. A BLM can nuke and kill faster than a Summoner, though SMN could almost match the damage but takes a bit longer to kill. This has always been the problem with jobs that are a little bit of everything in aby - Rdm, Sch, Blu, Cor and Pup.

[Sparthos]

SMN is not entirely useless in abysea. Sure, most things can be done with a solid group of 3-6 people, and the core group would be whm, a tank (ninja, thief or dancer), blm, with addition of war, blue or bard, and back up tank. Summoner can easily become a back up tank, and a DD. With minikin, ducal and razed ruin (or elemental atma for garuda/leviathan), Summoner can easily become a solid back up tank when the main party wiped - yes it can happen sometimes - and it is nice to know there is another job that can easily hold the NM for a bit while the rest unweakened.

Safety net logic doesn't really help the class because in all actuality you can simply tell your BRD to go zombie w/e you just wiped till the DD/mages are back online.

Atma of the Apocalypse makes anyone a viable stall till you can recover.

[Hayward]

People like GreatGuardian & DebbieGibson (kiss it where the sun don't shine if you don't like being called out on your BS) are PRIME examples of why BlueGartr and other such forums (Allakhazam is coming really close, as well) should be stripped of their Premier Site status. All too often, know-it-alls like them, among others, are the reason why people have such a hard time playing jobs they actually enjoy.

There are 20 jobs in this game and no reason why any combination of them cannot, within reason, be used effectively in any event. The only things holding 2/3 of these jobs back are these garbage talking points being sold by min/max geeks who are only good at ruining the fun factor in video games. "Efficiency" is all that matters to these folks, enjoyment be damned.

I don't think S-E could do anything to balance these jobs that these geeks won't turn into another min/max endeavor.

[DebbieGibson]

Efficiency=Enjoyment

[Sparthos]

People like GreatGuardian & DebbieGibson (kiss it where the sun don't shine if you don't like being called out on your BS) are PRIME examples of why BlueGartr and other such forums (Allakhazam is coming really close, as well) should be stripped of their Premier Site status. All too often, know-it-alls like them, among others, are the reason why people have such a hard time playing jobs they actually enjoy.

There are 20 jobs in this game and no reason why any combination of them cannot, within reason, be used effectively in any event. The only things holding 2/3 of these jobs back are these garbage talking points being sold by min/max geeks who are only good at ruining the fun factor in video games. "Efficiency" is all that matters to these folks, enjoyment be damned.

I don't think S-E could do anything to balance these jobs that these geeks won't turn into another min/max endeavor.

So 6 WHMs should be able to clear anything? Spare me the response on that one as you've already defeated yourself.

If you haven't noticed, SE calls the shots in this game, not the evil "min/maxers" that want to kill your children. In every event created by SE, certain jobs have always held the advantage due to the design of the content.

During the era of the 3 TOAU kings, magical attacks were ineffective in defeating these mobs therefore ranged/SMN based damage took the lead.

tl;dr: Square-Enix didn't want people using BLMs to manaburn these monsters down.

During the era of Wyrms, ranged attacks were ineffective so a mix of magical, SMN based and melee attacks were used.

tl;dr: Square-Enix didn't want Rangers arrowburning Wyrms.

During the era of TOAU EXP, SE created melee-friendly mobs conducive to faster EXP/hr.

tl;dr: Imps and Colibri were deliberately created by Square-Enix to resist magical damage and thus shun magical superiority that had ruled XI up until 'AU.

Those are just 3 obvious examples. While it would be dishonest to state that min/maxing is not an aspect of BG, it'd be equally dishonest to disregard the fact that how SE sets up an event is directly responsible for what jobs shine and which jobs get left out in the cold.

If you haven't noticed, Abyssea is the world of procs. If you fail to proc, you get no drops.

Square-Enix created the proc system and knew full-well that certain jobs were left out. Your argument should be with SE and not people who simply recognize the fact that certain jobs just don't matter within Abyssea.

[Ravenmore]

I was more speaking of events and Content geared towards collecting Atma and cool gear ect. On my server even Pick-Up groups will rarely invite a SMN to any NM type group. And as for unwritten rules has consideration been given to the fact that they create the very folks who don't know their job often complained about? By accepting only particular jobs newer folks may feel compelled to go level those very jobs with out the time and support needed to really master a job. Maybe it would be better to welcome all jobs and allow players to put their best job forward. For example, I am a very inexperienced white mage but I can hold my own with any summoner requirements.

Again find better friends. All the atma's can be killed duo, nothing needs a full LS. Why bother with pick up groups you get better results with out them.

[Hyrist]

So 6 WHMs should be able to clear anything? Spare me the response on that one as you've already defeated yourself.

If you haven't noticed, SE calls the shots in this game, not the evil "min/maxers" that want to kill your children. In every event created by SE, certain jobs have always held the advantage due to the design of the content.

During the era of the 3 TOAU kings, magical attacks were ineffective in defeating these mobs therefore ranged/SMN based damage took the lead.

tl;dr: Square-Enix didn't want people using BLMs to manaburn these monsters down.

During the era of Wyrms, ranged attacks were ineffective so a mix of magical, SMN based and melee attacks were used.

tl;dr: Square-Enix didn't want Rangers arrowburning Wyrms.

During the era of TOAU EXP, SE created melee-friendly mobs conducive to faster EXP/hr.

tl;dr: Imps and Colibri were deliberately created by Square-Enix to resist magical damage and thus shun magical superiority that had ruled XI up until 'AU.

Those are just 3 obvious examples. While it would be dishonest to state that min/maxing is not an aspect of BG, it'd be equally dishonest to disregard the fact that how SE sets up an event is directly responsible for what jobs shine and which jobs get left out in the cold.

If you haven't noticed, Abyssea is the world of procs. If you fail to proc, you get no drops.

Square-Enix created the proc system and knew full-well that certain jobs were left out. Your argument should be with SE and not people who simply recognize the fact that certain jobs just don't matter within Abyssea.


Way to shift the blame.

Let's break this down.

6 WHMs...

Way to hyperbole. The point of who you were trying to insult there was that any reasonable combination should be able to manage most if not all circumstances. Honestly... this fact holds true in the game as it stands. It's the elitist mentality to insist that every group needs a war for weapon procs, and ONLY the Warrior can attempt to proc.

Again, SE made the system, but it was the Min/Maxers that used it to break people.

Anti-Burn Debate:

Square-Enix (look, I can bold the company name too.) Made adjustments to the game because of the imbalance and public outcry against the flavor of the month mentality in the game.

The players. Made the Arrow Burn, the Manaburn, the TP burn, and warped them all into an exclusive club where if you didn't have X job with Y quality gear, or was Z support class, you were screwed out of the exp and merits.

SE was fumbling about trying to create an environment that would be friendly towards the most players possible. They did this trying to create varying possible exp environments for varying types of jobs. It was a Trial-and-Error method that resulted in the systems we have now. (FoV, GoV, Dominion Ops, Abyssean Parties in general.) That piratically floods EXP at the player, which made the game greater as a whole for it.

But even now people abuse it to try to make exclusive clubs for uber min/maxing (Fell Cleave Parties.) This isn't because of some grand flaw on Square Enix's part. Min/Maxers, on any MMO, by the sheer pratice of being a Min/Maxer, look for ways to exploit the system to gain the most reward with the least effort. Again, how many accounts were banned/suspended for Salvage Duping? Are you going to say it was Square Enix's fault for that too?

It's fine if it's your desire to play to the uttermost efficiency. But Min/Maxing crosses the line when it stomps on the casual player base, or even those who simply do not want to jump on the latest bandwagon job because theirs isn't in vogue this patch.


This said, it works both ways. If you're in a group that prefers to stick to the most effective job combination for party play, and you're wanting to say with your favorites, you're with the wrong crowd. If you feel as if you're having difficulty finding like minded, more casual players, then perhaps it's time you considered forking over the $25 to hop onto a more casual server.

Hayward's argument is that jobs that are not popular should not, on policy be segregated against so heavily. It is a time honored argument that reflects on the quality of the player-base as people, not players. Efficiency should take a second seat to kindness and comradeship. In his opinion both the mechanics of the game, and the average player mentality should encourage it.

In my response to such, I say that the mechanics of the game has not been more kindness friendly ever before, down to the point where it's outright frustrating some players with how they're enforcing the fairness (Voidwatch rewards). Majority of Abyssea content can be low manned or done with a party and that aspect is spreading throughout the majority of the older events too.

But you're always going to run into min/maxers and elitists. They're inevitable in any Multiplayer game. Best thing to do, for all comers, is to find those who will accept you and your character for how you play, and what jobs you wish to play as. Neither playstyle is wrong, but the animosity between them is an issue, one that won't resolve itself any time quickly due to how polarized things are and how crazy the arguments can get.

Best thing to do, is to just split them up, as best as possible, and let them play the way they want.

[Ravenmore]

People like GreatGuardian & DebbieGibson (kiss it where the sun don't shine if you don't like being called out on your BS) are PRIME examples of why BlueGartr and other such forums (Allakhazam is coming really close, as well) should be stripped of their Premier Site status. All too often, know-it-alls like them, among others, are the reason why people have such a hard time playing jobs they actually enjoy.

There are 20 jobs in this game and no reason why any combination of them cannot, within reason, be used effectively in any event. The only things holding 2/3 of these jobs back are these garbage talking points being sold by min/max geeks who are only good at ruining the fun factor in video games. "Efficiency" is all that matters to these folks, enjoyment be damned.

I don't think S-E could do anything to balance these jobs that these geeks won't turn into another min/max endeavor.

Its not only them people that don't even go to these site will also only take what is needed to proc so they will get the most. That is why you need friends and don't do pugs. Real friends won't mind helping. I have duoed many seal NMs with friends not even really worrying about procs, did it take longer yes, did we have fun doing it yes, did we kill slower then a group going after the same mob with procs no. Atma mobs are the only mobs were getting red proc is a must and SMN can cover one of them saving the war one weapon to change to. To cover red nin and war can be enough but you don't have to only take a nin and a war you can take other jobs. There is no party size limit.

[Neonii]

Again find better friends. All the atma's can be killed duo, nothing needs a full LS. Why bother with pick up groups you get better results with out them.

Thank you for the suggestion it is much appreciated. Now I will answer to your question. What I did was finish leveling my sub job (whm) for events. The result was a quick burnout. I am a much better whm these days but what it took to get there ruined it for me (talk about crash and burn). As to why I was joining pick up groups the answer would be to complete armor sets. Now the issue for me would more to make friends who are willing to work together. The dynamics between the people on my friend list would derail this thread so I will not go into it.

Now I have a question for Spartos (reference post #31). Did the "3 obvious examples" involve the best drops in the game at the time? It's an honest question I have been around a little over a year so I missed a lot. My concern is the with the caliber of drops in Abyssea, such a limited number of appropriate jobs limits the fun factor.

[Ravenmore]

Thank you for the suggestion it is much appreciated. Now I will answer to your question. What I did was finish leveling my sub job (whm) for events. The result was a quick burnout. I am a much better whm these days but what it took to get there ruined it for me (talk about crash and burn). As to why I was joining pick up groups the answer would be to complete armor sets. Now the issue for me would more to make friends who are willing to work together. The dynamics between the people on my friend list would derail this thread so I will not go into it.

Now I have a question for Spartos (reference post #31). Did the "3 obvious examples" involve the best drops in the game at the time? It is a earnest question I only been around a little over a year so I really want to know.
My concern is the caliber of drops in Abyssea locking folks onto jobs they do not enjoy or even understand in order to get the yummy treats. Abyssea has a lot of content to have to feel like one is doing chores to access and complete.

The game is far more forgiving now then it has been at any other point in time. All the seal mobs that epople prefer outside of bodies are retarded easy to duo. Hell I kill sirrush with my rdm friend the other day on blu I coulda just soloed it he didnt have to heal me once no procs on half of the fights got 4 seals he needed in little under a hour. Could have been done faster if we had gotten more procs but really whats the rush.

[Neonii]

Ahh lol I edited that post it sounded a little to much like a whine. Its good to hear that the game is more forgiving. Plus I really enjoy doing things with my ls mates. They are all around pretty cool.

[Byrth]

Now I have a question for Spartos (reference post #31). Did the "3 obvious examples" involve the best drops in the game at the time? It is a earnest question I only been around a little over a year so I really want to know.
My concern is the caliber of drops in Abyssea locking folks onto jobs they do not enjoy or even understand in order to get the yummy treats. Abyssea has a lot of content to have to feel like one is doing chores to access and complete.

Event structure always determines which jobs are optimal for events. The closer to optimal you are, the better you do the event and the quicker you get geared. Some events were almost impossible if you did not have the correct jobs (like Salvage). If you brought too many inefficient jobs to Salvage, you either squander the few cells that you get or spend too long farming cells to gear people.

That said, people are free to bring Summoners to Abyssea and not grellow proc as often. They're free to come Dragoon + Dark Knight + Ninja instead of Warrior + Ninja. How you play is going to be dictated by the other people in the group. If you find other people that are fine with you going whatever job you prefer, and you're fine with them going whatever job they prefer, then you're free to play that way and collect shinies half as fast.

I guess these are kind of just different ways to play. Some people really enjoy being good at a specific job, and some people really enjoy being part of a good team. If you're the second category, you come whatever job is needed and play whatever role you can to your maximum ability. If you're the first category, you generally spend a lot of time wishing you were on a different job.

Take Salvage as an example of an event that's unforgiving to inefficiency. You're given a certain number of "cells" to unlock abilities/spells/equipment/stats/etc. and have to distribute them most efficiently. I had way more fun in Salvage than any other FFXI event, and I had to play RDM (my least favorite job) at least half the runs.

[Ravenmore]

Salvage was the event you really didn't want to take more then the bare min. Not only for the cells but with the drop rate as low as they were you really didn't want to many people wanting a cut. Atma hunting is even better since if you don't want the drops who cares how many you take.

[Malamasala]

I had way more fun in Salvage than any other FFXI event, and I had to play RDM (my least favorite job) at least half the runs.

I've never been as bored as in Salvage. I played COR, which was all about waiting until everyone had abilities unlocked so they could do WSes and DD fast, and then last I get an ability so I can just roll. Forget armors, that was the last I'd get.

I spent most of my time naked, reading forums, during all my salvages. And I couldn't even read forums alone because it was all "pass! pass! pass!".


In every event created by SE, certain jobs have always held the advantage due to the design of the content.

Pretty much every event is "kill the monster" and favors all jobs that deal the maximum damage in shortest time. I'd say SMN excels at fishing though, since if you accidentally pull up a monster, you have a pet guarding you. (Now the fact that music tells you when it is a monster and you have 0% risk of pulling one up is another thing)

I still think this game needs a couple of monsters with +999 elemental damage a punch and deal like 5 damage normally, so avatars are perfect on them by absorbing the elemental damage. The sad part is that no other job would be useful, which would mean nobody would do this content unless it dropped WAR/SAM/PLD/BLM stuff so they were forced to do it.

Another thing would be monsters that die to spikes spells, so that people have to AOE spike themselves to not get killed by hundreds of monsters.

But overall it feels a bit silly to have to design content purely to address what SMN is good at, instead of making SMN good at the content that exists.

[Kimble]

SMN was good at a lot of events. Just because SMN wasnt needed at every single event, doesnt mean it was useless.

If you were the last getting JA as cor, your group most likely wasn't very good.

[Sparthos]

Way to shift the blame.

More like accepting the facts as is. SE makes the game and ultimately calls the shots on what jobs will be most effective at their new events.

Are you going to ignore that Atmas killed off the need for buffers, HP boosts kill off the need for dedicated tanks and damage dealing becomes something anyone can do thanks to cruor support? This was all created by SE and they darn well knew what would happen in a world where anyone can be a god.


Let's break this down.

6 WHMs...

Way to hyperbole. The point of who you were trying to insult there was that any reasonable combination should be able to manage most if not all circumstances. Honestly... this fact holds true in the game as it stands. It's the elitist mentality to insist that every group needs a war for weapon procs, and ONLY the Warrior can attempt to proc.

So exactly how would you suggest covering procs given the system SE has presented us with? Take a PLD? Take a DRK? While these jobs can cover procs, WAR is the best option along with NIN given the weaponskills that trigger red. Naturally, these jobs are in highest demand and are what people are going to answer with when someone asks "What jobs do I need to get Razed Ruins off Ironclad?"

It's not elitist, it's common sense. If you have access to a PLD or a WAR, you're going to take the class with the most procs (WAR) and ability to deal damage (WAR). If you don't have a WAR, then you start working your way down the totem pole.

But nevermind my ramblings, all the people shouting in Jeuno for +1 seals/+2 items must be elitists when they ask for WAR NIN BLU BRD BLM. Yes, all of them.


Again, SE made the system, but it was the Min/Maxers that used it to break people.

If by break you mean giving people honest answers then yes, min/maxers give it to you straight. No one is outright telling you to not bring certain classes but it'd be dishonest to say those jobs will be crucial if you already have the core jobs covered.

Im not going to delude a DRG into thinking they'll be awesome in Abyssea when players are swimming in damage and the job has few procs.


Anti-Burn Debate:

Square-Enix (look, I can bold the company name too.) Made adjustments to the game because of the imbalance and public outcry against the flavor of the month mentality in the game.

The players. Made the Arrow Burn, the Manaburn, the TP burn, and warped them all into an exclusive club where if you didn't have X job with Y quality gear, or was Z support class, you were screwed out of the exp and merits.

And who created this environment? That's right, SE did. They took years to balance 2handers with 1handers, took years to adjust classes that needed adjustment and still haven't even addressed the issues with many classes.

It was never an exclusive club either. If you had the classes, you were often invited to EXP. Burn parties were created by casual and elite alike to combat the harsh EXP requirements needed to level up in an environment where SE wanted to keep people grinding for the sake of grinding.

Don't attempt to paint burns as an elite creation when EVERYONE was using the setup @merits for years.


But even now people abuse it to try to make exclusive clubs for uber min/maxing (Fell Cleave Parties.) This isn't because of some grand flaw on Square Enix's part. Min/Maxers, on any MMO, by the sheer pratice of being a Min/Maxer, look for ways to exploit the system to gain the most reward with the least effort. Again, how many accounts were banned/suspended for Salvage Duping? Are you going to say it was Square Enix's fault for that too?

If the min/maxers want it all to themselves, why are so many guides out there created on how to actually build your own Cata/Cleave/Whisker parties/setups?

Furthermore, when did Edge/Cata/Cleave/Whisker come out? Oh right, during the age of Abyssea with the purpose of being used to AOE down weak mobs.

SE knew exactly what they were doing when they released all of those AOE attacks and that was to give anyone the capability of staying in Abyssea alone for whatever reason.


It's fine if it's your desire to play to the uttermost efficiency. But Min/Maxing crosses the line when it stomps on the casual player base, or even those who simply do not want to jump on the latest bandwagon job because theirs isn't in vogue this patch.

Yes, I should lie to people and tell them they are all unique snowflakes with infinite potential.

No one is telling you to jump on the bandwagon moreso that certain classes just don't work inside Abyssea. You can solo on NMs on BST but without those procs you're going to be slow to finish anything - and if that works for you, fine. Just don't chastise people for promoting the most ideal setups that lead to success.


Hayward's argument is that jobs that are not popular should not, on policy be segregated against so heavily. It is a time honored argument that reflects on the quality of the player-base as people, not players. Efficiency should take a second seat to kindness and comradeship. In his opinion both the mechanics of the game, and the average player mentality should encourage it.

In my response to such, I say that the mechanics of the game has not been more kindness friendly ever before, down to the point where it's outright frustrating some players with how they're enforcing the fairness (Voidwatch rewards). Majority of Abyssea content can be low manned or done with a party and that aspect is spreading throughout the majority of the older events too.

As a former Linkshell leader, my credo was always to cater to my teammates so long as catering to them didn't cost us the ability to win the event. If this meant having someone come out on their not-so-good job, so be it - so long as we could win the event.

I find that people often just aren't honest with themselves when it comes to the state of their class due to the parameters that SE sets up. SE made Abyssea a world where in party play you want procs which lead to cherrypicking the best class for procs and drops. If you don't like that? You can find people willing to let you have fun, make your own groups and insert yourself on X job or simply resign yourself to having a wide variety of jobs to choose from.

At the end of the day, SE calls the shots on what jobs will be needed most. With Voidwatch they've already shifted the ball back to BRD/COR/SMN/PLD/RNG - all jobs that Abyssea shunned.

[Ravenmore]

Its not elitest its greed is all it is. Thats why mnk and a whm duo came about, or mnk whm thf go at the right time of the game day you have all blu procs covered and TH. Not wanting to share, thankfully atma's drop to everyone so again don't want the drops no reason not to be taken.

[Neisan_Quetz]

How does doing things with less people = greed... Frankly I could care less about most of the playerbase and the less I have to interact with them (especially with people who I know are gonna fuck up in some way somehow), the better.

[Zumi]

The jobs aren't useless like you say. They can still function. However not as well as other jobs so people perfer not take jobs which preform better and have more use in abyssea. In there in lies your problem. People aren't going to change their attitude toward smn. Would you invite someone that was smn only to do say seal farming when you could have a blm to proc green probably not.

[Dallas]

People like GreatGuardian & DebbieGibson (kiss it where the sun don't shine if you don't like being called out on your BS) are PRIME examples of why BlueGartr and other such forums (Allakhazam is coming really close, as well) should be stripped of their Premier Site status. All too often, know-it-alls like them, among others, are the reason why people have such a hard time playing jobs they actually enjoy.

Hey now, BG needs to be around to turn melee SMN threads into a Broadway production.

If you want to play a job you actually enjoy, just do it. Remember that no matter how smart they think they are, they still argued for Salvage exploits.

[Byrth]

We didn't bring CORs super often, but when we did the guy liked it because it meant he only needed a JA (and maybe Ranged) cell to be pretty much optimally useful, as far as his role in Salvage goes. It's playing for the team vs. playing for yourself.

[Fiarlia]

ITT: BG is a premier site.

[Covenant]

what your talking about is the old "elitist" mentality..and your better off playing your summoner and not getting sucked into that mindset. Are you or aren't you having fun playing summoner? That's the only test in my book. Whether or not you have 100%tricked out summoner, or follow the very cookie cutter formula of any job.
I've been in this game since day one of American release and sure I can follow the forums "suggestions" but I have even more fun playing quirky job combos that people tend to overlook whether they are bad or good.
I'm not going for some award for most clone-playing skill. And trolls don't necessarily stay in the forums they play FFXI as well.

[Ravenmore]

How does doing things with less people = greed... Frankly I could care less about most of the playerbase and the less I have to interact with them (especially with people who I know are gonna fuck up in some way somehow), the better.

Would you take a blm and a brd if one of them didnt want seals.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I wouldn't shout for anyone to join but I wouldn't refuse someone asking to join either unless I'm the main healer and too busy to invite/party is full.

[Alhanelem]

If SE would give smn cure 5 then people would use them to heal.This is like "If we give a white mage Firaja we will use them to nuke."
You're saying they should give SMN something they have no skill for and is not even part of the job itself. Cure I-IV comes from the SUBJOB. Tell SE to make cure V level 49, then you might have a point. But cures will not be added to summoner (except as avatar abilities, because that's not directly part of the job.


People like GreatGuardian & DebbieGibson (kiss it where the sun don't shine if you don't like being called out on your BS) are PRIME examples of why BlueGartr and other such forums (Allakhazam is coming really close, as well) should be stripped of their Premier Site status.BlueGartr is NOT a premire site (thank the heavens).

[Azagthoth]

Why don't you log on BG and take a look at the content on the site. You may not agree with the forum guidelines or some of the threads and that's fine, but don't allow it to cloud your vision of the site. Ultimately, most of them want to not only make themselves better, but other players as well. I admit that it was a lot worse there a few years ago, but even then you could still find useful content.

Call me crazy, but saying summoner is the best job in the world isn't a good way to get the job buffed.

Do you think BG poster's ultimate goal is to see SMN and other jobs excluded from most group activities?

[Rearden]

Wait, this forming is claiming BG to not be elite? Most people in this forum (and the majority of the playerbase) don't even know you can proc dynamis.

SMN is a great job outside of Abyssea and you should be content with that. There are other jobs besides WHM to play if you want to contribute.

In the meantime, SMN can solo 90% of Abyssea content, so to really be complaining in the first place is a bit narcissistic.