View Full Version : A single simple solution to Paladin
Oakrest
06-21-2011, 08:53 AM
Paladin simply needs a single trait that both:
a.) rewards STR as attack damage (much more significantly than the existing 2str =1atk for all classes, while still balanced below the benchmark DD's) and ..
b.) rewards VIT as -dmg% taken based on enmity (understandably this should only be a small fraction of a percent per VIT point, and maybe drastically curve off towards an established VIT cap). VIT should also be rewarded as: 1VIT = 0.5HP (i.e. 100VIT = +50HP). Lastly, VIT should effect enmity as a reduction in enmity-loss while damage is taken.
Both of these could be contained in a single trait called "The Will of Mount Ordeals" obtainable at Paladin level 95.
I'm stretching a bit by combining four effects into one trait (attack+, -damage% taken, enmity-loss reduction, and HP+) but anyone who knows the condition of Paladin will know it's in desperate need of change. The added damage would help compete with the existing DD's enmity, and the -dmg% reduction would somewhat justify turning the monster. In thinking about this for a long time, I also wanted to somehow see AGI improve Subtle Blow, but this new added TP feed should be justified through the damage mitigation and enmity-loss reduction i'm proposing. Besides, it's just not fitting that a paladin strikes lightly, he's a big wall of metal ^^.
If a single trait here is too unbalanced, i'd say the only other option would be to have these as active aura's (STR or VIT) that can be toggled between the two (sort of like Hasso and Seigan, but no timers). No animation would be needed if it impacted the PS2, just a buff icon.
As a side note, if there was one other valuable suggestion for Paladin that I've seen on these forums over the the last month or so, is to improve Cover. There's been lots of proposals here, i.e. span the effect acroo multiple players/alliance, or automate during certain party members hp%, etc - all good suggestions.
Kwate
06-22-2011, 07:31 AM
The problem is nothing DEF based, it's the fact that DD's can tank almost as efficiently, can cause more damage and hold hate without alot of extra gadget abilities. PLD I think is perfect for alliance type setup, but when you're doing 3-5 people lowman (which is the majority) every slot counts. PLD defensively is great, offensively is where it becomes a liability, especially when other DD jobs are so potent at 90.
DebbieGibson
06-22-2011, 06:58 PM
I see no problem with pld. It will come back into play when there are hard things to fight.
Oakrest
06-23-2011, 08:21 AM
offensively is where it becomes a liability, especially when other DD jobs are so potent at 90.
Did you not read the part (a.) ? That was the most important part, and why I said "significant".
The problem is nothing DEF based, it's the fact that DD's can tank almost as efficientl.
You're wrong. The problem is bilateral, and that's why i'm breaking it down into (a.) and (b.) above. Once we give paladin what i'm suggesting in (a.), the paladin is going to need to justify and mitigate the monsters attention effectively - the reality is paladins lack of evasion is going to result in relatively more TP for the mob (compared to say NIN or MNK tanking), and inability to properly reduce emnity-loss while mainting HP is critical.
Like everything, it's about balance - Yin and Yang - there's no way to perfectly balance any one class, but some jobs like PLD have easier progress in balancing than others .
Zagen
06-24-2011, 06:28 AM
I think its funny you think a little bit of extra attack is going to make you tank... here run this quick test go out as PLD/whatever, bring a MNK and bring a BRD. Make sure the MNK is in a different party from you and the BRD. Have the BRD play double Minuet.
Assuming the BRD is good and geared well:
Valor Minuet V = 81 ATK
Valor Minuet IV = 66 ATK
That will give you 147 ATK that the MNK isn't getting. This is much more than you'd get than doubling the effect STR has on ATK.
Let me know how well that works for you keeping the monster's attention.
Oakrest
06-24-2011, 08:12 AM
I think its funny you think a little bit of extra attack is going to make you tank...
I think it's funny you obviously didn't read my OP. Did you notice the word 'significant' and decide to replace that with 'little'? Moreover, I'm still keeping things within a balanced framework - Paladin needs a lot of work, but arguable has a lot of assets already - with a good mix of what i'm saying in (a.) and (b.), PLD will be fixed.
Zagen
06-25-2011, 02:00 AM
I think it's funny you obviously didn't read my OP. Did you notice the word 'significant' and decide to replace that with 'little'? Moreover, I'm still keeping things within a balanced framework - Paladin needs a lot of work, but arguable has a lot of assets already - with a good mix of what i'm saying in (a.) and (b.), PLD will be fixed.
You don't think 147 ATK from my example is a "significant" boost to attack?
Increasing attack alone does nothing when your competition either swings faster weapons, has higher damage weapons, higher damage weapon skills, job abilities/traits that increase damage potential, or all of the above.
Increasing attack and reducing damage taken does nothing when your competition for tanking is mitigating just as much if not more damage even when you reduce your damage taken. Heck 2 of the better/best items a PLD can wear for DDing will give them -15% PDT over other jobs' TP set and yet the PLD still isn't tanking currently.
Oakrest
06-25-2011, 10:51 PM
Increasing attack alone does nothing ....
Did you even read my OP? I didn't mention attack exclusively - I clearly point out 4 areas of improvement that I've divided into two categories. Moreover, if you look i'm saying attack damage generally, the bit about 2str=1atk should only be considered a suggestion of one of many ways to balance up it's atk dmg output. That is 1/4th my proposal (damage+,damage mitigation,enmity loss reduction, and hp+).
There's many ways a PLD can take hate now with the right JA & Magic usage (and atmas if in Abyssea) - the problem is justifying it (feeding tp, taking damage, enmity loss, etc, etc - what i'm breaking into the four items above). The PLD is arguably a 'jack of all trades', and therefore a master of none. There's nothing wrong with being a jack of all trades, this jack just needs each of its trades slightly boosted.
You don't think 147 ATK from my example is a "significant" boost to attack?
To be honest I don't know, and probably won't do the math - I'll leave that up to SE. The important thing here is balance, my mention of 'jack of all trades' is the key, it just needs a proper improvement to each of the 4 proposed sections.
DebbieGibson
06-26-2011, 02:45 PM
Lol how is pld a jack of all trades? It's supposed to be good at damage mitigation and holding hate. It's a tank.
Oakrest
06-27-2011, 04:06 AM
Lol how is pld a jack of all trades? It's supposed to be good at damage mitigation and holding hate. It's a tank.
Maybe it's fairer to say: a jack of many trades. It tanks, cures, does damage, mitigates damage, etc... anyone of those four mentioned examples would be better served of a job that focuses in that area. Again, that's fine - it just is very weak overall right now.
Kwate
06-27-2011, 06:51 AM
Maybe it's fairer to say: a jack of many trades. It tanks, cures, does damage, mitigates damage, etc... anyone of those four mentioned examples would be better served of a job that focuses in that area. Again, that's fine - it just is very weak overall right now.
PLD doesn't need to be a jack of many trades, that's BLU. PLD just needs a few intelligent tweeks that are actually useful. Which I hope to see in the foreseeable future.
DebbieGibson
06-27-2011, 08:10 AM
Tanks traditionally do not do well as healers and damage dealers. It is not strange that pld sucks at those and it wouldn't be a travesty if they were never given the ability to do such a thing.
The problem is nothing DEF based, it's the fact that DD's can tank almost as efficiently, can cause more damage and hold hate without alot of extra gadget abilities. PLD I think is perfect for alliance type setup, but when you're doing 3-5 people lowman (which is the majority) every slot counts. PLD defensively is great, offensively is where it becomes a liability, especially when other DD jobs are so potent at 90.
No I disagree. Defense is part of the bias that feeds into this retarded anti-paladin fervor. Shadows and high evade do trump physical defense on this game on a lot of different mobs. And just because a ninja or theif deals with damage better on certain bosses than a paladin does for some strange reason everyone wants to say paladins suck. It's stupid i'll admit, but defense deffinitely plays a roll, and it's not all offense in nature.
But that aside, the paladin does have it's own unique strengths and is solid, more so now than ever in the past and I love the job. No class is best on every thing, but for some weird reason people expect this of paladins. Don't ask me why.
Tanks traditionally do not do well as healers and damage dealers. It is not strange that pld sucks at those and it wouldn't be a travesty if they were never given the ability to do such a thing.
Paladins do not suck at healing.
Kwate
07-02-2011, 12:29 AM
Tanks traditionally do not do well as healers and damage dealers. It is not strange that pld sucks at those and it wouldn't be a travesty if they were never given the ability to do such a thing.
They only suck in healing when compared to a WHM or a BLU with a good MND build.
Zagen
07-02-2011, 01:32 AM
They only suck in healing when compared to a WHM or a BLU with a good MND build.
Don't forget SCH for stronger Cures with JAs, AoE Buffs/Status removals. Sure a PLD/SCH could do this but not as well as SCH main due to only 2 charges not accounting for better cure gear.
Or how RDM can handle curing for a longer amount of time due to refresh 2. Also that spiffy cure pot staff trumps light staff PLD can get.
Or how about a BRD/WHM who is also on the cure pot staff and has access to ballad2/3 as well
Edit: Forgot how SMN is on cure pot staff has access to a cure pot+14% body through battle trophies on top of the buffs/cures their avatars could do.
So yes PLD is a sucky healer.
Alienmonkey
07-02-2011, 01:37 AM
Paladins do not suck at healing.
Oh yeah that's right pld gets cure 5 6 -na erase esuna sacrifice haste regen curaga afflatus divine seal and a huge mp pool.
Kwate
07-02-2011, 03:48 AM
Don't forget SCH for stronger Cures with JAs, AoE Buffs/Status removals. Sure a PLD/SCH could do this but not as well as SCH main due to only 2 charges not accounting for better cure gear.
Or how RDM can handle curing for a longer amount of time due to refresh 2. Also that spiffy cure pot staff trumps light staff PLD can get.
Or how about a BRD/WHM who is also on the cure pot staff and has access to ballad2/3 as well
Edit: Forgot how SMN is on cure pot staff has access to a cure pot+14% body through battle trophies on top of the buffs/cures their avatars could do.
So yes PLD is a sucky healer.
Minor differences. Augments within Cure 4 still don't take you near Cure 5 range, so what does it matter? PLD are no way great healers, but they don't suck too bad and within range of other mages was my point.
Zagen
07-02-2011, 04:09 AM
Minor differences. Augments within Cure 4 still don't take you near Cure 5 range, so what does it matter? PLD are no way great healers, but they don't suck too bad and within range of other mages was my point.
But that's the point I'm making they aren't "within range of other mages" every job I mentioned has access to cure 4 just like PLD except PLD can only reach a Cure potency of 20% not counting augmented armor. RDM/SCH/BRD/SMN/BLM all can reach 35% and SMN can reach 49%. That puts PLD in the 8th position for healer dunno about you but to me being 8th means it sucks at healing. Not even counting DNC which I'd rank higher than PLD making it 9th...
Kwate
07-02-2011, 04:23 AM
Lol ok Zagen point taken.
Oh yeah that's right pld gets cure 5 6 -na erase esuna sacrifice haste regen curaga afflatus divine seal and a huge mp pool.
Most of the stuff you mentioned paladins can get by subbing the right job, so your argument is pretty weak. The only job in the game that gets cure 5 and 6 is white mage, so i guess by your standards all jobs suck at healing except for white mage...
Like i said earlier, people are so eager to say paladins suck at something they hold them to ridiculous standards. As i've said before and i guess i'll say again, just because another job does something better doesn't mean you suck.
Don't forget SCH for stronger Cures with JAs, AoE Buffs/Status removals. Sure a PLD/SCH could do this but not as well as SCH main due to only 2 charges not accounting for better cure gear.
Or how RDM can handle curing for a longer amount of time due to refresh 2. Also that spiffy cure pot staff trumps light staff PLD can get.
Or how about a BRD/WHM who is also on the cure pot staff and has access to ballad2/3 as well
Edit: Forgot how SMN is on cure pot staff has access to a cure pot+14% body through battle trophies on top of the buffs/cures their avatars could do.
So yes PLD is a sucky healer.
Are you being sarcastic or serious, i can't tell?
As far as your comments about Paladins lacking because other jobs get better cure potency weapons...well let's not forget paladins have the best staff skill in the game and spirit taker is an effective tool for regaining mp.
But that's the point I'm making they aren't "within range of other mages" every job I mentioned has access to cure 4 just like PLD except PLD can only reach a Cure potency of 20% not counting augmented armor. RDM/SCH/BRD/SMN/BLM all can reach 35% and SMN can reach 49%. That puts PLD in the 8th position for healer dunno about you but to me being 8th means it sucks at healing. Not even counting DNC which I'd rank higher than PLD making it 9th...
Paladin heals better than any summoner or bard i've ever played with.
Red Mage can be a slightly better healer than paladin but not by much. Black mage? They dont' even get healing skill. I suppose they could sub scholar and go into light arts...but i've never played with a black mage who did this, so i won't comment.
YOu also put way too much empahasis on this cure potency stat, thinking it trumps everything else for healing, even the healing skill itself apparantly. It helps sure, but it's not nearly as needed as you seem to think, and absense of it certainly won't make you a sucky healer as you claim.
Paladins may not be the "best" healer, but they are adequate and will be able to heal the vast majority of situations on this game. I'd rank them right behind the mages, which is about where they should be.
Alienmonkey
07-02-2011, 06:59 AM
Most of the stuff you mentioned paladins can get by subbing the right job, so your argument is pretty weak.
WTF? Why would your tank sub WHM?
WTF? Why would your tank sub WHM?
Um... Alienmonkey, we was talking about the paladin in a healing role, not a tank role.
Zagen
07-02-2011, 07:09 AM
Dale I don't think you know what a healer job does...
When you say Cure Potency isn't that important you obviously have no clue how the healer role works, WHMs strive to hit the 50% cap for a reason ~_~
Alienmonkey
07-02-2011, 07:12 AM
Um... Alienmonkey, we was talking about the paladin in a healing role, not a tank role.
Oh. Well dur of course it can be a healer if you sub WHM LOL. Bard/whm is most definitely better than pld/whm though, if you're talking /whm healers.
It is btw true that cure potency trumps healing skill. cure potency > mnd > vit > healing skill is the order of importance for stats when it comes to cures.
Dale I don't think you know what a healer job does...
When you say Cure Potency isn't that important you obviously have no clue how the healer role works, WHMs strive to hit the 50% cap for a reason ~_~
I play healer all the time Zagen, i assure you I know what it does, and i stand by my point. You are exagerating the need to have a high cure potency stat, and the mere absense of a 10% to 35% gap is not going to make you suck at healing like you claim.
Oh. Well dur of course it can be a healer if you sub WHM LOL. Bard/whm is most definitely better than pld/whm though, if you're talking /whm healers.
It is btw true that cure potency trumps healing skill. cure potency > mnd > vit > healing skill is the order of importance for stats when it comes to cures.
That would depend on the situation. Are you telling me a warrior using a light staff (in theory) will be able to out-heal a paladin with no cure potency stats because he has the extra cure potency from the staff? I hope you aren't sillly enough to believe that.
And I disagree that a bard/whm can heal better than a paladin is capable of.
Alienmonkey
07-02-2011, 07:22 AM
That would depend on the situation. Are you telling me a warrior using a light staff will be able to out-heal a paladin with no cure potency stats because he has the extra cure potency from the staff? I hope you aren't sillly enough to believe that.
And I disagree that a bard/whm can heal better than a paladin is capable of.
Yes a war/whm with light staff will have better cures than a pld/whm without it. Healing skill does barely anything.
A bard/whm has ballads if he needs refresh, or he can regen the entire group with paeon for no mp at all.
Yes a war/whm with light staff will have better cures than a pld/whm without it. Healing skill does barely anything.
A bard/whm has ballads if he needs refresh, or he can regen the entire group with paeon for no mp at all.
When i say Healing Skill i mean more than just the stat, i also mean the mere presense of the ability to heal and have mp. If you think a warrior using a light staff can out heal a paladin...well, i'm sorry but that is the most idiotic thing i have ever heard. I really do wish we were on the same server so I could match up your warrior with a light staff to my pld healer and see who does better.
Trust me on this ok...having the actual healing ability is far more important than having an extra 10% to your heals from some piece of gear.
And a pld/sch can regen the entire group too. Also has refresh through sublimation. Paladins also have auto refresh as an ability. Multiple pieces of gear that add refresh. They also have the highest staff skill in the game and access to spirit taker - one of the best ways to recover mp on the game. I'd match a paladin's ability to recover his mp to that of a bard's anyday of the week. So again, your arguments don't impress.
Alienmonkey
07-02-2011, 07:57 AM
When i say Healing Skill i mean more than just the stat, i also mean the mere presense of the ability to heal and have mp. If you think a warrior using a light staff can out heal a paladin...well, i'm sorry but that is the most idiotic thing i have ever heard. I really do wish we were on the same server so I could match up your warrior with a light staff to my pld healer and see who does better.
Trust me on this ok...having the actual healing ability is far more important than having an extra 10% to your heals from some piece of gear.
And a pld/sch can regen the entire group too. Also has refresh through sublimation. Paladins also have auto refresh as an ability. Multiple pieces of gear that add refresh. They also have the highest staff skill in the game and access to spirit taker - one of the best ways to recover mp on the game. I'd match a paladin's ability to recover his mp to that of a bard's anyday of the week. So again, your arguments don't impress.
You're funny, guy.
You're funny, guy.
You're funny also.
YOu thinking a warrior can strap on a light staff and turn into a healer is one of the funniest things i've heard in awhile :)
You should get a world pass and i'll even lend you my light staff. I want to see how your warrior outshines my pld at healing cause he has that all important 10% extra cure potency.
Zagen
07-02-2011, 11:59 AM
Trust me on this ok...having the actual healing ability is far more important than having an extra 10% to your heals from some piece of gear.
Huh? Are serious about this?......
WAR/WHM has these relevant stats:
Healing Magic Skill: 138
MND: 75
VIT: 77
PLD/SCH has these:
Healing Magic Skill: 341 (Since PLD has native skill I believe Light Arts makes it a B+)
MND:80
VIT:83
Cure IVs should roll in around these numbers:
WAR/WHM: 370 + 10% (37) = 407
PLD/SCH: 395
So yes Alienmonkey's statement about a WAR/WHM giving better cures when they use a Light Staff and the PLD doesn't is true.
Huh? Are serious about this?......
WAR/WHM has these relevant stats:
Healing Magic Skill: 138
MND: 75
VIT: 77
PLD/SCH has these:
Healing Magic Skill: 341 (Since PLD has native skill I believe Light Arts makes it a B+)
MND:80
VIT:83
Cure IVs should roll in around these numbers:
WAR/WHM: 370 + 10% (37) = 407
PLD/SCH: 395
So yes Alienmonkey's statement about a WAR/WHM giving better cures when they use a Light Staff and the PLD doesn't is true.
Lol...ok look, even if i accept your numbers pld/sch would vastly surprass a warrior/whm as a healer. Just the mp difference alone, not to mention all of the other benefits would far outweigh a cure 4 that does slightly more, though i am very very skeptical of this claim.
I'm going to test it tonight.
But in any case, a pld/sch will out heal a warrior/whm any day of the week and will be happy to prove this if nessasary. Just come to my server and I will show you. This debate has gotten ridiculous.
Zagen
07-02-2011, 12:56 PM
Lol...ok look, even if i accept your numbers pld/sch would vastly surprass a warrior/whm as a healer. Just the mp difference alone, not to mention all of the other benefits would far outweigh a cure 4 that does slightly more, though i am very very skeptical of this claim.
I'm going to test it tonight.
But in any case, a pld/sch will out heal a warrior/whm any day of the week and will be happy to prove this if nessasary. Just come to my server and I will show you. This debate has gotten ridiculous.
My numbers were simply to show you Cure Potency is better than Skill and a few higher stats. I nor Alienmonkey said WAR/WHM with a light staff was a better healer. It was that a WAR/WHM with a Light Staff would cure for more than a PLD. I went further and said a PLD/SCH as they should have higher skill than a PLD/anything else.
The point was to show you the thing that matters when it comes to cures is Cure Potency not skill I mean in my calculations PLD/SCH has 203 more Skill than WAR/WHM yet still loses to 10% Cure Potency. Not a large amount mind you, but that doesn't change the fact it loses.
My numbers were simply to show you Cure Potency is better than Skill and a few higher stats. I nor Alienmonkey said WAR/WHM with a light staff was a better healer. It was that a WAR/WHM with a Light Staff would cure for more than a PLD. I went further and said a PLD/SCH as they should have higher skill than a PLD/anything else.
The point was to show you the thing that matters when it comes to cures is Cure Potency not skill I mean in my calculations PLD/SCH has 203 more Skill than WAR/WHM yet still loses to 10% Cure Potency. Not a large amount mind you, but that doesn't change the fact it loses.
No.
This debate started because someone said paladins sucked at healing simply because they were unable to obtain 35% cure potency instead only being able to reach 10%. I was pointing out how ridiculous this was, as some extra percents on cure potency is hardly goign to make or break you as a healer.
And the debate was over who made the better healer. It was never about who could throw out the highest heal, which of course a /whm sub would have an advantage as he can use divine seal. Stop trying to change the debate.
Fact is a pld is a far better healer than a warrior is, with or without his precious light staff. The fact a warrior can put on a light staff and use divine seal and throw out a higher cure 4 means almost nothing when it comes to how effective of a healer you can be.
Alienmonkey
07-02-2011, 01:56 PM
Pld sucks at healing because it isn't whm.
Zagen
07-02-2011, 01:59 PM
No.
This debate started because someone said paladins sucked at healing simply because they were unable to obtain 35% cure potency instead only being able to reach 10%. I was pointing out how ridiculous this was, as some extra percents on cure potency is hardly goign to make or break you as a healer.
And the debate was over who made the better healer. It was never about who could throw out the highest heal, which of course a /whm sub would have an advantage as he can use divine seal. Stop trying to change the debate.
Fact is a pld is a far better healer than a warrior is, with or without his precious light staff. The fact a warrior can put on a light staff and use divine seal and throw out a higher cure 4 means almost nothing when it comes to how effective of a healer you can be.
When any job can get Cure IV from /WHM that means the only thing of value for cures is how much Cure Potency a given job can get in comparison to a PLD. And there are 8 other jobs that have better Cure Potency gear and/or better spells/abilities to help in the healer role it means PLD sucks at being a healer.
When a job comes in 9th place for a given task it is trying to accomplish that seems pretty sucky doesn't it?
Pld sucks at healing because it isn't whm.
Right. It doesn't matter that they can keep you alive on the fight. All that matters is they aren't white mages. They aren't the best, so they must SUCK. Just like all nukes suck unless they are black mage right? lol...
I think I"m beginning to recognize a common theme here.
When any job can get Cure IV from /WHM that means the only thing of value for cures is how much Cure Potency a given job can get in comparison to a PLD. And there are 8 other jobs that have better Cure Potency gear and/or better spells/abilities to help in the healer role it means PLD sucks at being a healer.
When a job comes in 9th place for a given task it is trying to accomplish that seems pretty sucky doesn't it?
/sigh
Again you have tunnel vision and can't see past the simple numbers. You are obsessing over minor things and totally ignoring some major ones. Being able to toss a cure 4 that does 420 compared to a cure 4 that does 460 or 470 isn't that big a deal. It just isn't...
The fact a Paladin can melee very well with a staff and use spirit taker to recover his mp for example is a real advantage. The Paladin has a native mp pool and can get up to +4 mp a tic from just gear and his job trait alone, not even counting the refresh spell or sublimation from support jobs, not to mention having a good defense as a healer is in itself a benefit, as cures create quite a bit of enmity. It can also add defensive buffs such as phalanx to the tank, making them take less damage to begin with.
Bottom line is Paladins don't suck at healing. I don't care where you place them in your imaginary totem pole of healers. They can get the job done in the vast majority of situations, and that's what matters in the end. Not 10 or 20% more cure potency on a piece of gear or w/e silly rank you want to give them.
Greatguardian
07-02-2011, 02:21 PM
Right. It doesn't matter that they can keep you alive on the fight. All that matters is they aren't white mages. They aren't the best, so they must SUCK. Just like all nukes suck unless they are black mage right? lol...
I think I"m beginning to recognize a common theme here.
They can keep you alive during fights against extremely weak monsters, in areas where all the characters are rocking god mode / invincible and 4,000 HP, and where every melee has an infinite supply of Elixirs and the Paladin themselves has infinite MP and unnatural bonuses to Fast Cast and/or Cure Potency.
Yup. Best healer ever. Abyssea is freaking hard, man.
Alienmonkey
07-02-2011, 02:21 PM
Anything slash whm can get the job done in the vast majority of situations.
They can keep you alive during fights against extremely weak monsters, in areas where all the characters are rocking god mode / invincible and 4,000 HP, and where every melee has an infinite supply of Elixirs and the Paladin themselves has infinite MP and unnatural bonuses to Fast Cast and/or Cure Potency.
Yup. Best healer ever. Abyssea is freaking hard, man.
Great Guardian, I wasn't even referring to Abyssea...
Anything slash whm can get the job done in the vast majority of situations.
No it can't.
Your warrior/whm for example would run out of mp very quickly...even with your light staff equipped :)
Regardless of what you may think alienmonkey, you can't jsut equip a light staff and sub white mage and turn any job into a great healer. It doesn't work that way.
Greatguardian
07-02-2011, 03:02 PM
Paladin heals well outside Abyssea?
On what, exactly?
Also, definition of "Doing it well" is still different. You go be content with Paladin healing all you want. It still sucks to everyone else here who has significantly higher standards than you.
Paladin heals well outside Abyssea?
On what, exactly?
Also, definition of "Doing it well" is still different. You go be content with Paladin healing all you want. It still sucks to everyone else here who has significantly higher standards than you.
Yes, They can heal outside of abyssea... on just about everything. As I've tried to point out earlier if you would just read what i write. Lot of people (like yourself) underestimate the amoutn of healing a paladin is able to pull off.
And my standards are simple. If it gets the job done, then it don't suck. That's my standard.
Greatguardian
07-02-2011, 03:58 PM
Considering how easy pretty much all non-Voidwatch content is right now, those are pretty piss-poor standards.
Alienmonkey
07-03-2011, 12:32 AM
Regardless of what you may think alienmonkey, you can't jsut equip a light staff and sub white mage and turn any job into a great healer. It doesn't work that way.
Did I say it would be great? No. It will suck at healing compared to a real mage, just like pld will suck at healing compared to a real mage.
Did I say it would be great? No. It will suck at healing compared to a real mage, just like pld will suck at healing compared to a real mage.
But that's where you are wrong. Paladin compares quite well to other mages when it comes to healing. They don't have the hard hitting heal bombs a white mage does I admit, but they can get the job done and have excellent mana recovery if played right.
The point is your Warrior/White mage toting a light staff would suck when compared to a Paladin healing.
Considering how easy pretty much all non-Voidwatch content is right now, those are pretty piss-poor standards.
No the piss poor standard is demanding the absolute best or it's automatically usless and sucky.
The difference in a bad player and a good player is the good players learn how to utilize all of their character's potential, not just dismiss them and say they suck cause someone else is better at it.
Zagen
07-03-2011, 04:29 AM
No the piss poor standard is demanding the absolute best or it's automatically usless and sucky.
The difference in a bad player and a good player is the good players learn how to utilize all of their character's potential, not just dismiss them and say they suck cause someone else is better at it.
The good player's utilize their character potential by using the most useful job available. When it takes 2-5 days to get a job from lvl 30-90 and cap relevant skills (excluding BLU) there isn't really an excuse to not bring the most useful job.
The good player's utilize their character potential by using the most useful job available. When it takes 2-5 days to get a job from lvl 30-90 and cap relevant skills (excluding BLU) there isn't really an excuse to not bring the most useful job.
Sounds like someone may need a life outside vanadiel :)
Alienmonkey
07-03-2011, 05:25 AM
but they can get the job done and have excellent mana recovery if played right.
The point is your Warrior/White mage toting a light staff would suck when compared to a Paladin healing.
Ok you say pld have excellent mana recovery if played right. You also know that whm and rdm mana recovery and efficiency is 10 times that of pld. So if pld is excellent, what does that make whm? Excellent excellent excellent? Sooper dooper excellent? If the 6th-7th best healer in the game is excellent, what do you call the 5-6 ones that are better?
Ok you say pld have excellent mana recovery if played right. You also know that whm and rdm mana recovery and efficiency is 10 times that of pld. So if pld is excellent, what does that make whm? Excellent excellent excellent? Sooper dooper excellent? If the 6th-7th best healer in the game is excellent, what do you call the 5-6 ones that are better?
But that's where you are wrong. Trust me, I play both Red Mage and Paladin - and a Paladin's mp recovery does not suck compared to Red Mage even, who are generally agreed to be the best.
When you take into account spirit taker, chivarly, +4mp a tick, sublimation - penury if you sub /sch - you can turn Paladin into a mp machine.
You are just wrong about paladin alilenmonkey and we aren't going to agree with this. We should probably just drop it cause you are never going to convince me paladin's suck at healing, and I apparantly am never going to convince you that they don't.
All i can say is come over to quezoctle and i'll show you - i'll go chain ITs for you and do all my own healing without any kind of white mage. Or i'll let you tank and i'll keep you alive with my heals and never even come close to ever running out of mp. This useless back and forth is getting old, i'd show you if I could, that's best way to convince people.
Zagen
07-03-2011, 03:45 PM
Sounds like someone may need a life outside vanadiel :)
I guess so, then again I have a 40 hour/week job, a new born that's a month old and still find time to spend with my parents, in-laws, and/or friends on a regular basis.
ITT: Leveling takes a lot of time depriving you of a life outside of the game.
Ziyyigo-Tipyigo
07-06-2011, 03:05 AM
Oh yeah that's right pld gets cure 5 6 -na erase esuna sacrifice haste regen curaga afflatus divine seal and a huge mp pool.
If I could get Afflatus Solace from subbing WHM, my PLD would never sub anything else.
Dear Altana, that would crash the server!
Ziyyigo-Tipyigo
07-06-2011, 03:08 AM
WTF? Why would your tank sub WHM?
Divine Seal Curaga II. You know, the kinds of things true WHMs aren't supposed to do mid-fight.
Greatguardian
07-06-2011, 03:10 AM
Divine Seal Curaga II. You know, the kinds of things true WHMs aren't supposed to do mid-fight.
More like the kind of thing any true WHM should be more than capable of doing without issue.
Word to the wise, WHMs are a hell of a lot sturdier than any melee on the planet (PLD included) assuming the operator isn't a cheapass. They also have boatloads of -Enmity gear if they do happen to be a cheapass.
Ziyyigo-Tipyigo
07-06-2011, 03:27 AM
Most of the things that make WHM survivable are below 37, let alone 45. Stoneskin lasts a lot longer on a PLD (with its grown-up shields) than it does on a WHM.
There's "sturdy," and then there's "bulletproof." PLD/WHM doesn't care if it steals hate.
Bumbeen
07-06-2011, 04:10 AM
who gives a shit about hate, that's not an advantage
Greatguardian
07-06-2011, 11:33 AM
Most of the things that make WHM survivable are below 37, let alone 45. Stoneskin lasts a lot longer on a PLD (with its grown-up shields) than it does on a WHM.
There's "sturdy," and then there's "bulletproof." PLD/WHM doesn't care if it steals hate.
Because I was totally talking about Stoneskin and Blink.
A good WHM is rocking high/capped PDT, high/capped MDT, capped Cure Potency and capped Cure Speed at the appropriate times, with the ability to cureskin and cast Cure V and Cure VI.
WHM is the single most invincible job in the game in Abyssea, and is a hell of a lot sturdier than most things outside too.