Contests for Implementing Player Suggested Content (Gear, Weapons, Quest, etc.)?

[kingfury]

It was a few years ago when I stumbled upon what would equate to a fan-fiction that detailed a unique and original quest that delved into a great story centered around Tavnazia's history. The Fan made quest was so intricate and detailed that it included every single Npc dialog, location for a cutscene, to the very boss fights including special attacks they would use. It was pretty epic.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure what became of the request, but the concept of such serious and well thought out player suggested content is pretty undeniable. We have great contest that calls on the creativity from players like the Fan Art contest, and If I'm not mistaken, we at one point had a contest that called for players to create the best In-game party event using the group meeting functionality or something like that. Yet we don't have contests that allows the player to use that creativity for actual in game content.

The question purposed in the Thread title asks if the Devs could possibly consider hosting an "Official Annual Suggestion Contest " where players submit suggestions for actual in-game content targeted towards Gear, Weapons, Spells, and Quest. The contest could function very much like the Fan Art contest works in terms of the Dev team judging the submissions to crown winners in each category. All the nice legal stuff could flow in the same vein as the Fan Art Contest as well in that the payoff would be actually getting your idea created and implemented into the game. The Devs could even showcase the visuals of the base weapons/gear/scrolls(each spell type up for suggestions)/locations(where the quests can be implemented).

(Armor) Head———Body———Hands:
=========================================
Heavy(Hd.)——Heavy(Bdy.)——Heavy(Hnd.)
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Mid(Hd.)——Mid(Bdy.)——Mid(Hnd.)
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Light(Hd.)——Light(Bdy.)——Light(Hnd.)
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Shields(Tower)——(Kite)——(Round)——(Buckler)
=========================================
(Weapons) GA—Axe—Sword—GS—Scyth—Dagger—Staff—Club—Polearm—H2H—Bow—Crossbow—Gun—Throwing—Ammo
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(Images of each of the respective weapon type with nothing written for the descriptions)
=========================================
(Scrolls) White Magic—Black Magic—Enhancing Magic—Enfeebling Magic—Elemental Magic—Healing Magic—Divine Magic—Summoning Magic
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(Images of each of the respective Scroll types with nothing written for the descriptions)
=========================================
(Quest Locations) The Republic of Bastok—The Kingdom of San d'Oria—The Federation of Windurst
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(Any of the areas associated with these zones)

And so on.
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»Submission Example (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/SuggestionContest-1.jpg)
The rest would be up to the players to choose which category they would like to suggest in. One submission per category per player, up to maybe 3 categories per player. Each contest wouldn't have to focus on ALL these suggestion categories at once per contest. Even if only one or two items from each category was picked to let players suggest for, it would still be awesome. ^^ Add in all the other "fairness rules" you'd expect to see surrounding a contest of this magnitude. So long as the suggestions are of a serious and well thought out nature, this kind of contest could be the most highly anticipated FFXI event ever. Not saying that each submission would have to be on par with the example I spoke of above in terms of detail, but perhaps the forms per category that players have to fill out offer enough detail to the Devs so that the submissions are clear enough to explain the suggestions effectively.

The majority of post found here are not focused to specific concepts, even in the respective thread locations like say for instance the WHM thread. Players can post on literally anything regarding WHMs, where these contest would have very focused points of content to suggest for like the possible stats for a new Hand gear for Mages. The forms would be very simple to fill out (literally "Fill in the Blank"), so pretty much a child could handle filling one out.

The contest could be targeted around only one to two topics from each category, so it wouldn't have to be the whole list each time. So you would see a contest one year that focuses on a Head piece and a Body piece, a Polearm and a Sword, a Healing and Dark magic scroll, and one or two quest for players to submit suggestions for.

These "Suggestion contest" would be regarded very much the same as our suggestions here in that they are just "suggestions" which the Devs can use entirely or partially and change whatever they need to change. Everyone entering the contest would know and agree to this before submitting their suggestions.

Thanks for listening Devs /salute

[Kimble]

Must be time to show off this weeks artwork!

[Korpg]

Must be time to show off this weeks artwork!

That was what I was thinking too

[BorkBorkBork]

I think Ifrit mated with a galka.



As far as the idea no offense king but it's terrible and it looks like your looking for recognition again. These reason they do things like fan art contests is because its easy because all it requires is a screen shot. Suggestions are great but the average player has no idea what it takes to implement "their great idea" and it would probably be more of a pain in the ass then it would be worth. Even if the development team did decide to lean heavily on someones suggestion, if it wasn't exactly what the person suggested full on NERD RAGE would ensue.

Long story short the forums are a good place to suggest things but they already have to sift through 10 tons of crap to find a kernel of anything that is worth considering. Adding a contest would obligate them to implement something that might be horrible. Unless of course they can end the contest by saying I'm sorry all of your ideas are horrible but thank you for giving the dev team a good laugh.

If its a great idea a community rep will say cool idea I'll pass it along and we should let it die at that

[Korpg]

I think Ifrit mated with a galka.

It does seem that way, doesn't it?

[TybudX]

There's a reason why SE doesn't look to the player base for game related ideas, and evidence of it is all over these forums.

[HFX7686]

This is a terrible idea. Fan art and fiction, sure, but stuff this is too complicated and difficult for players to do.

[kingfury]

As far as the idea no offense king but it's terrible and it looks like your looking for recognition again. These reason they do things like fan art contests is because its easy because all it requires is a screen shot. Suggestions are great but the average player has no idea what it takes to implement "their great idea" and it would probably be more of a pain in the ass then it would be worth. Even if the development team did decide to lean heavily on someones suggestion, if it wasn't exactly what the person suggested full on NERD RAGE would ensue.

Long story short the forums are a good place to suggest things but they already have to sift through 10 tons of crap to find a kernel of anything that is worth considering. Adding a contest would obligate them to implement something that might be horrible. Unless of course they can end the contest by saying I'm sorry all of your ideas are horrible but thank you for giving the dev team a good laugh.

If its a great idea a community rep will say cool idea I'll pass it along and we should let it die at that
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Aside from it being really fun to participate in, why would someone enter a contest if they didn't want the possible recognition of being a winner? It would be a contest where folks compete, and hopefully folks would win and be celebrated for it. I'll correct you again, I've never "looked for recognition" from these suggestions.

The concept is called a "Suggestion Contest". Meaning that all submissions would be regarded as such, and SE wouldn't be "obligated" to implement anything. The fun of the contest would be in coming up with original ideas for the categories in question and "hoping" your suggestion gets picked. It's based on the same excitement of the Bonanza lottery thing y'know? You may or may not win. The "fairness rules" I mentioned in the OP would cover SE as well in that they have the responsibility to maintain game balance and therefore wouldn't add anything that would upset it. If all submissions fail to be something the Devs can realistically implement into the game, then yeah, they could say something like, "Unfortunately, none of the submissions we received for "category name" met the required game balance standards currently in place."

Just like the Fan Art contest, where there are great submissions and not so great submissions, a contest like this would see a wide range of potentially great ideas and not so great ideas. Contest usually have a way of separating the good from the bad fairly easily. Theses forums are indeed a great space for ideas to be tossed around, but this space is not focused on specific elements like these suggestion contest would be. Nor is there a limit on how many suggestions we can make here, where the contest would be limited per player and possibly cause folks to think deep and hard before submitting. That wouldn't stop the silly submissions completely of course, but it could reduce them significantly.

The idea would be to have a focused contest that's fun and creative.

[kingfury]

There's a reason why SE doesn't look to the player base for game related ideas, and evidence of it is all over these forums.
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Huh? Abyssea adjustments, new warp Npcs, higher Fellow Npc levels, Gear augments via Synergy(stage 1), Atma infusement menu additions, better skill up options, new porter moogles storage options, more inventory space (moogle sack), etc, etc. all came from player based suggestions.

[Yarly]

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Huh? Abyssea adjustments, new warp Npcs, higher Fellow Npc levels, Gear augments via Synergy(stage 1), Atma infusement menu additions, better skill up options, new porter moogles storage options, more inventory space (moogle sack), etc, etc. all came from player based suggestions.

They came from player based suggestions that started from other forums. The posters on these forums compared to the actual playerbase are like the Vancouver rioters compared to Vancouver citizens. An embarrassment.

[kingfury]

Here's an example I know came from here personally. ^^ There's more, but the point is Devs have done pretty great at listening to player feedback.



»Known Issues: New Atma Menu "Delayed" again?! /sulk More info if any if you PLEASE (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/7296-Known-Issues-New-Atma-Menu-Delayed-again-%21-sulk-More-info-if-any-if-you-PLEASE%21)

[Khajit]

Is it even possible for you to go even 5 minutes without stroking yourself?
(your ego)

[kingfury]

Not sure how proving the Devs listen has anything to do with my ego, but uhhh.... hmmm... okay.

[cidbahamut]

Get back in the mines.

[Tamoa]

This:

Even if the development team did decide to lean heavily on someones suggestion, if it wasn't exactly what the person suggested full on NERD RAGE would ensue.

and this:

This is a terrible idea. Fan art and fiction, sure, but stuff this is too complicated and difficult for players to do.

Not to mention if all ideas get turned down and then later something is implemented into the game that's somewhat similar to a player's previous suggestion - "OMG SE STOLE MY IDEA BAWWW!" - incoming nerd rage again.



Huh? Abyssea adjustments, new warp Npcs, higher Fellow Npc levels, Gear augments via Synergy(stage 1), Atma infusement menu additions, better skill up options, new porter moogles storage options, more inventory space (moogle sack), etc, etc. all came from player based suggestions.

Now compare those things to the amount of completely useless/pointless/worthless/crappy/downright stupid ideas posted by players on this forum. I think you will find that the latter outweighs the former by a lot.

Let the players stick to posting their ideas here. If it's anything useful for the majority of the playerbase, and not impossible to implement into the game, chances are SE just might listen.

[kingfury]

Again, the majority of post found here are not focused to specific concepts, even in the respective thread locations like say for instance the WHM thread. Players can post on literally anything regarding WHMs, where these contest would have very focused points of content to suggest for like the possible stats for a new Hand gear for Mages. If you find the example I popped on the OP of the type of form a player would possibly fill out difficult, then yeah, I'd say this contest wouldn't be for you. It's pretty much "Fill in the blank", so I'm almost positive a 5 year old could handle it.

The OP states that the contest could be targeted around only one to two topics from each category, so it wouldn't have to be the whole list each time. So you would see a contest one year that focuses on a Head piece and a Body piece, a Polearm and a Sword, a Healing and Dark magic scroll, and one or two quest for players to submit suggestions for.

I've said it previously that this "Suggestion contest" would be regarded very much the same as our suggestions here in that they are just "suggestions" which the Devs can use entirely or partially and change whatever they need to change. Everyone entering the contest would know and agree to this before submitting their suggestions. It would not be an arena for "nerd rage" to ensue lol.

[Khajit]

It's still easier for them to invent something on their own that works than to wade through the player's suggestions.
The junk you make alone would waste an eternity.

[Minsc]

"What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent post were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone is now dumber for having read it."

[Tamoa]

It's still easier for them to invent something on their own that works than to wade through the player's suggestions.


This so much.

And Kingfury - do you really think there won't be nerd rage and whining if SE take a player's suggestion and tweak it to make it work in game, or implement something that's somewhat similar without giving the player recognition for it. Come on, you can't possibly be that naive. Just look at your own posts in your Gyms of Vana'diel thread. And look at the amount of complaining on this forum - people complain about everything!

[kingfury]

@ Tamoa:

Well all the nerds that I know can read pretty well, and would probably be okay with the contest rules so long as they could possibly get something unique out of it. The folks that are touched in the head however, yes, they will most likely skim over the contest rules thinking their "suggestions" once submitted are in some way owned by them.

I've said it twice now that this would be a "Suggestion contest", in which there would be winners, so that aspect would satisfy the competition and recognition side of things. The submissions that are in fact chosen would be highlighted by the Dev team and showcased online somewhere in similar fashion to the Fan Art contest. It wouldn't change the fact that the Devs still have the responsibility to uphold game balance and could still tweak parts of the submission if needed. All that good stuff would be spelled out in the rules before you'd submit anything.

And you're absolutely right about people complaining about everything.

[Khiinroye]

There is absolutely no need for SE to sponsor a contest for suggestions. They get enough of those anyways, and don't need to spend more time than they are on them, which is more or less...bad idea, bad idea, bad idea, terrible idea, how high do you even have to be to suggest that, bad idea, bad idea, half-decent idea, bad idea, bad idea, bad idea, terrible idea, bad idea.

[kingfury]

It's still easier for them to invent something on their own that works than to wade through the player's suggestions.
The junk you make alone would waste an eternity.
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In similar fashion to some of the threads created here on these very suggestion boards, the more "logical" heads you have suggesting stuff, the more it equates to possibly seeing better ideas. I've seen great ideas posted here from folks and thankfully some have been passed along to the Devs.

What kind of ideas have you suggested Khajit?

[kingfury]

There is absolutely no need for SE to sponsor a contest for suggestions. They get enough of those anyways, and don't need to spend more time than they are on them, which is more or less...bad idea, bad idea, bad idea, terrible idea, how high do you even have to be to suggest that, bad idea, bad idea, half-decent idea, bad idea, bad idea, bad idea, terrible idea, bad idea.
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lol maybe for the unimaginative folks, I'd agree with you there. There's plenty of really creative players out there that would have a blast with an event like this.

The Devs get loads of /random ideas here yeah, but this contest would have very focused pieces of content for players to suggest ideas for.

[Greatguardian]

"What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent post were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone is now dumber for having read it."

Best quote ever. Epic nostalgia bomb for me. Thank you for reminding me of this.

Also, King, you really need to quit while you're ahead. Every time you say "I'm not doing it for me, I'm doing it for FFXI", a kitten cries.

[CrystalWeapon]

Having suggestions organized in contest form would only put pressure on them to impliment an idea regardless of if it is good or not. If they flat out said "We're not implimenting anything from this year's contest," there would be a lot of rage going around. You can make people sign agreements, but you have to realize that half the people wouldn't even read the damn thing. Even if they did they would still act however the hell they felt like if things didn't go their way.

On a side note, you can disagree with someone's ideas without acting immature about it. We do need people stepping in and saying "hey this idea is bad, and here's why," but when you resort to personal attacks/tag spams that have nothing to do with the topic; you're just going to end up getting yourself banned.

[kingfury]

Best quote ever. Epic nostalgia bomb for me. Thank you for reminding me of this.

Also, King, you really need to quit while you're ahead. Every time you say "I'm not doing it for me, I'm doing it for FFXI", a kitten cries.
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Reading is fun.

[Greatguardian]

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Reading is fun.

I'm showing about the same amount of reading comprehension you show anyone who has a technical issue with some of your otherworldly ideas.

Would a fanfiction contest be cool? Sure. Should any of it have to do with an obligation to add crap to the game? No way. The fact that you made this thread really doesn't do wonders for the public perception of your ego either.

[kingfury]

Having suggestions organized in contest form would only put pressure on them to impliment an idea regardless of if it is good or not. If they flat out said "We're not implimenting anything from this year's contest," there would be a lot of rage going around. You can make people sign agreements, but you have to realize that half the people wouldn't even read the damn thing. Even if they did they would still act however the hell they felt like if things didn't go their way.
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I agree with you on that fact that the none reading types would find ways to be upset regardless lol. I'd say that it wouldn't be much pressure, since it would only be a few select pieces of content to attempt to get suggestions for vs. the full list of topics.



On a side note, you can disagree with someone's ideas without acting immature about it. We do need people stepping in and saying "hey this idea is bad, and here's why," but when you resort to personal attacks/tag spams that have nothing to do with the topic; you're just going to end up getting yourself banned.
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Couldn't agree more.

[Minsc]

I personally would like to hear more of your ideas. Perhaps some ideas regarding jobs other than WAR?

[kingfury]

I'm showing about the same amount of reading comprehension you show anyone who has a technical issue with some of your otherworldly ideas.
--------
Not at all.


Would a fanfiction contest be cool? Sure. Should any of it have to do with an obligation to add crap to the game? No way. The fact that you made this thread really doesn't do wonders for the public perception of your ego either.
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Suggesting a "Suggestion Contest" on a Suggestion Board is really that far out there for ya eh? Again, "reading is fun". I've stated three times the Devs wouldn't be "obligated" to do anything with the suggestions throughout the contest. Allowing creative players the opportunity to be creative towards a game they love is the foundation for creating this thread. I'm not interested in what bitter, disrespectful posters think of me.

[Khajit]

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In similar fashion to some of the threads created here on these very suggestion boards, the more "logical" heads you have suggesting stuff, the more it equates to possibly seeing better ideas. I've seen great ideas posted here from folks and thankfully some have been passed along to the Devs.

What kind of ideas have you suggested Khajit?

Well for one I've suggested you STOP doing this nonsense over an over in a blatant attempt to stroke your ego. Why do you think me being content to let the people I'm PAYING to make up ideas FOR me to have fun with is a crime? Sure I could say X needs to be changed but I can also say I'll go quit and play pokemon instead until the next patch. The responsibility is on THEM to make this game continue to be interesting to me and not on me to turn it into a my little pony playground.

And your argument you just posted is yet another logical fallacy since more ideas does not mean the ratio of complete and utter shit ideas vs decent/tolerable/good ones will invert itself. It merely means that the dev teams have to wade through even MORE garbage, figure out if it's even possible to do the half good ones individually, possibly let some ridiculously horrible nonsense through because at least one person in the production line wont play the game enough to realize the idea sucks, tie up resources via playtesting the ideas, and so on and so forth through the entire process.

[kingfury]

I personally would like to hear more of your ideas. Perhaps some ideas regarding jobs other than WAR?
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I don't know if it would do anything for you Minsc. So far, the only feedback you've offered is those nice quotes you've found. I think this is the 1st time you've typed an actual sentence in response to one of my threads.

[Minsc]

/stagger

I've posted plenty of feedback besides quotes (I could copy/paste them for you if you wish), you've just selected to read small portions of them and respond to even smaller portions of them. ^^ lol

[kingfury]

Well for one I've suggested you STOP doing this nonsense over an over in a blatant attempt to stroke your ego. Why do you think me being content to let the people I'm PAYING to make up ideas FOR me to have fun with is a crime? Sure I could say X needs to be changed but I can also say I'll go quit and play pokemon instead until the next patch. The responsibility is on THEM to make this game continue to be interesting to me and not on me to turn it into a my little pony playground.
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Or, you could actually want to see changes in a game you're a fan of and post suggestions about those changes since you're on a suggestion board. Even though tearing people down seems much more fun for most of the posters here, try the opposite.


And your argument you just posted is yet another logical fallacy since more ideas does not mean the ratio of complete and utter shit ideas vs decent/tolerable/good ones will invert itself. It merely means that the dev teams have to wade through even MORE garbage, figure out if it's even possible to do the half good ones individually, possibly let some ridiculously horrible nonsense through because at least one person in the production line wont play the game enough to realize the idea sucks, tie up resources via playtesting the ideas, and so on and so forth through the entire process.
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Try to creatively think of something to change about the game. Then post it.

[kingfury]

/stagger

I've posted plenty of feedback besides quotes (I could copy/paste them for you if you wish), you've just selected to read small portions of them and respond to even smaller portions of them. ^^ lol
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To my threads, or others? I've never responded to your quote post.

[Shibayama]

Kingfury, personally I think you are a very talented artist and I wish there was a PM feature here so we could talk about art stuff together. I think the issue here though is that whenever you make a post it comes off less that you have a coherent idea about the game and more that you want to show off your newest batch of drawings.

That being the case, there is this weird mentality in this forum where people think that SE's devs are hyperanalyzing every post and if there is a suggestion people don't agree with they have to rush to swat it down in the most obnoxious way possible to make sure they don't get conned into picking it as a focal point of the next upate. It's cool if you disagree, but people get downright ornery when they think somebody has a bad idea, and the poster is made to feel like they're an idiot for even thinking that was a good idea.

In the end - do I agree with this idea? No not really though it is an interesting concept. Kingfury, while I may not always agree with you, I do think you should have the right to make suggestions and post your drawings without being attacked for it. It's always more interesting to see a post that might be abit out there but has passion and interest behind it rather than more "Bawww fix abyssea bawww fix my job!" posts.

[Kimble]

Again, people don't NEED to have an idea to tell someone that theirs is a bad idea. Unless you want me to come up with a bad idea myself just to tell you both of these ideas are bad.

Heres an idea:

Instead of doing this, have a contest to design a piece of level 1, no stat, event gear. Something that LOOKS nice, that people might want, that in no way has anything to do with having to balance stats, etc.

[Minsc]

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To my threads, or others? I've never responded to your quote post.

Reread your whole "GIVE WARs ALL WEAPON SKILLS!!!" rant. You read a small portion of my feedback, responded to a smaller portion. Despite what some on here are saying, we want to read more of your ideas. Please keep posting! ^^b lol

[kingfury]

Kingfury, personally I think you are a very talented artist and I wish there was a PM feature here so we could talk about art stuff together. I think the issue here though is that whenever you make a post it comes off less that you have a coherent idea about the game and more that you want to show off your newest batch of drawings.
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Thanks for compliment Shibayama. / For the record, I change my sig every week. It has nothing to do with my post however, as I've at times created multiple threads within a week without changing it. I have a lot of FFXI artwork that I've created over the years is all. Seems fitting to put it where it belongs.


That being the case, there is this weird mentality in this forum where people think that SE's devs are hyperanalyzing every post and if there is a suggestion people don't agree with they have to rush to swat it down in the most obnoxious way possible to make sure they don't get conned into picking it as a focal point of the next upate.

In the end - do I agree with this idea? No not really though it is an interesting concept. Kingfury, while I may not always agree with you, I do think you should have the right to make suggestions and post your drawings without being attacked for it. It's always more interesting to see a post that might be abit out there but has passion and interest behind it rather than more "Bawww fix abyssea bawww fix my job!" posts.
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Absolutely cool that you don't agree with the suggestion man. / I respect your feedback. Thanks.

[Shibayama]

No problem - at the very least I always enjoy seeing what you come up with. It's usually alittle off the wall and I think thats cool. Also... are you from Valefore?

[kingfury]

Again, people don't NEED to have an idea to tell someone that theirs is a bad idea. Unless you want me to come up with a bad idea myself just to tell you both of these ideas are bad.

Heres an idea:

Instead of doing this, have a contest to design a piece of level 1, no stat, event gear. Something that LOOKS nice, that people might want, that in no way has anything to do with having to balance stats, etc.
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Grats man! I can respect that idea as constructive feedback. It's devoid of tear downs and flame. 100% cooler than all the other post you've ever posted in regards to my threads! I don't understand why someone would be on a suggestion website to solely tear down peoples suggestions. If you don't wish to suggest anything, why waste time posting here?

However, you do realize this would be the equivalent of the type of submission talked about in the OP. If there was a helmet that had no stats listed, what you just suggested would be a possible submission. A balanced and cool submission at that.

[kingfury]

No problem - at the very least I always enjoy seeing what you come up with. It's usually alittle off the wall and I think thats cool. Also... are you from Valefore?
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^^ can't argue that some ideas are more out there than others (ex. Domesticated Wyrms), but some would be cool to see none the less. Yeah I reside on Valefore.

[Shibayama]

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^^ can't argue that some ideas are more out there than others (ex. Domesticated Wyrms), but some would be cool to see none the less. Yeah I reside on Valefore.

Aha... I just transferred there 2 months ago. Maybe we can talk about art stuffs next time we're both online.

[kingfury]

Sounds cool man. /salute

Lemmie know if you need some help murdering anything!

[kingfury]

Reread your whole "GIVE WARs ALL WEAPON SKILLS!!!" rant. You read a small portion of my feedback, responded to a smaller portion. Despite what some on here are saying, we want to read more of your ideas. Please keep posting! ^^b lol
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lol Didn't say "ALL" but okay. As long as you're posting feedback that doesn't focus on tearing down the suggestion in a disrespectful way and you offer some actual alternatives/solutions based on the thread, I'll respond in turn with that same respect. I've never bashed anyone on these threads for voicing their opinions in a respectful manner, and never will.

It's the other types of post (like your quote post sitting on the 1st page of this thread) that want nothing more than to tear down, flame, or pick a fight for no reason that I've become accustomed to ignoring.

[Minsc]

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lol Didn't say "ALL" but okay. As long as you're posting feedback that doesn't focus on tearing down the suggestion in a disrespectful way and you offer some actual alternatives/solutions based on the thread, I'll respond in turn with that same respect. I've never bashed anyone on these threads for voicing their opinions in a respectful manner, and never will.

It's the other types of post (like your quote post sitting on the 1st page of this thread) that want nothing more than to tear down, flame, or pick a fight for no reason that I've become accustomed to ignoring.

The quotes are simply saying exactly what I'm feeling about a particular idea. Similar to why people buy greeting cards, cause they can't put into words how they are feeling. However, I will try and add alternatives/solutions if it means you'll post more great ideas!

[Kimble]

Who is a nazi?

[Tamoa]

I don't understand why someone would be on a suggestion website to solely tear down peoples suggestions. If you don't wish to suggest anything, why waste time posting here?


I'm sorry, are you saying that when someone posts an idea about something they want changed or implemented into the game, others shouldn't express their opinion about this idea unless they have previously posted an idea/suggestion regarding the game?

This forum is overflowing with terrible ideas (in my opinion), and if it's bad enough yet presented in such a manner that I suspect the Devs might actually take a second look at it, I'm certainly going to voice my opinion to make sure the Devs know there are players out there that dislike said ideas. Fairly certain other people feel the same way as I do on this matter.

[Greatguardian]

I am on the verge of being legitimately insulted by the fact that some troglodyte just seriously compared a forum poster to Nazis.

[kingfury]

Reading is FUN. lol ><

"nazi-like, tear down quotes", as in hate-filled and negative... devoid anything positive.

[Kimble]

Dude, Nazi-like is still calling someone a Nazi because, oh I dunno, you are comparing them to a Nazi?

[kingfury]

/sigh by reading, one would see that I referred to his "quotes" and not him.

[kingfury]

ahh, yes. Reading is fun.

[Greatguardian]

So it's the Quote that he posted that is comparable to the writings and rhetoric of the Nazi party? Because that's exactly what I said just now.

And it's still sick.

[Kimble]

ahh, yes. Reading is fun.

So is learning how to convey your thoughts correctly.

[kingfury]

I just posted this

"nazi-like, tear down quotes", as in hate-filled and negative... devoid anything positive.

READ man.

[Kimble]

I did read. "Nazi-like" is comparing it to a Nazi.

[Tamoa]

I would still like to know if you actually think that people shouldn't voice their (opposing) opinion unless they have made a suggestion/posted an idea somewhere on the forum themselves.

[kingfury]

So is learning how to convey your thoughts correctly.
-------------
I'm fully capable of conveying my thoughts correctly. If I had said his quotes are "EXACTLY like those of the Nazi's", then I would be conveying that thought.

I said "nazi-like". Comprehending is another great part of reading.

[Greatguardian]

"Nazi-like", comparable to Nazi. In the context of quotes, that is saying that the tear-down quotes you are referencing are comparable to the writings and rhetoric of the Nazi party.

Hyperbole is one thing. Comparing some internet trash talk on a video game forum where people just don't seem to like you to the Nazi party is absolutely sickening. Stop trying to save face. You're not going to get anywhere.

No amount of "hate-filled" internet posting on this forum will ever, ever be comparable to the rhetoric of the Nazi party.

Edit: Note that I'm not saying "EXACTLY" either. To even compare hate-filled quotes, and Nazi rhetoric, is insulting because it implies that they are even close enough to be compared. Nazi rhetoric is worlds away from some doo-dooheads saying mean things about you on the interwebs.

[CrystalWeapon]

I'm sorry, are you saying that when someone posts an idea about something they want changed or implemented into the game, others aren't allowed to express their opinion about this idea unless they have previously posted an idea/suggestion regarding the game?

This forum is overflowing with terrible ideas (in my opinion), and if it's bad enough yet presented in such a manner that I suspect the Devs might actually take a second look at it, I'm certainly going to voice my opinion.

Disagreeing with a post is one thing, "i need attention, mithra gave me herpes, personal deviantart" is another. When someone thinks another person is stupid and result to "hurhur you're retarded" personal attacks, it shows a lot of ignorance on their part. I'm all for correcting someone or inserting your opinion as to why their idea is wrong, but this berating that goes on towards targeted "idiots" is a bit much.

While I don't agree with a majority of his posts, I don't feel the need to attack him on a personal level to derail the topic every time he posts. I'm willing to bet whatever KF posts will be shot down instantaneously with the arguements "You're an idiot" "You just want attention" "Stop showing off your retarded drawings" regardless of if the original post has ANY merit to it at all.

[kingfury]

Take your own advice. I was referencing the tone of the quotes, which are "negative and hateful". Unless history has changed, the nazi's functioned in both manners.

[Greatguardian]

Good lord you are dense.

The degree to which Nazis are hateful so greatly eclipses anything some meanie-head could ever say to you on these forums, that it is an insult to the human race to even compare the two.

The Nazis were hateful. Check.

Posts on this forum were hateful. Check.

That does not mean the levels of hate in the two situations are even remotely comparable. No poster here is going to kill millions of people because they don't gear swap in Final Fantasy XI.

[kingfury]

@ Tamoa:

How did respond to your post Tamoa? Though you do not agree with the thread topic, you still voiced your concerns in a respectful manner. I responded in turn in that same respectful manner. I have no problem with opposing opinions like yours.

It's the other types of post that have zero respect or feedback that I'm referring to when I say "why be on a suggestion thread if all you wish to do is tear people down?"

[Tamoa]

Disagreeing with a post is one thing, "i need attention, mithra gave me herpes, personal deviantart" is another. When someone thinks another person is stupid and result to "hurhur you're retarded" personal attacks, it shows a lot of ignorance on their part. I'm all for correcting someone or inserting your opinion as to why their idea is wrong, but this berating that goes on towards targeted "idiots" is a bit much.

While I don't agree with a majority of his posts, I don't feel the need to attack him on a personal level to derail the topic every time he posts. I'm willing to bet whatever KF posts will be shot down instantaneously with the arguements "You're an idiot" "You just want attention" "Stop showing off your retarded drawings" regardless of if the original post has ANY merit to it at all.

Well, the OP said so himself "if you don't wish to suggest anything, why waste time posting here?"

I, and everyone else on this forum, do have the right to disagree with someone and tell them why we think their idea is bad.

Also, certain personalities on this forum stick out like a sore thumb. It seems to me that because the OP got positive feedback from SE in his Gyms of Vana'diel" thread, his head swelled to immense proportions. And when it turned out that GoV wasn't Gyms of Vana'diel, he couldn't let it go. Finally, the /stagger, /salute etc, is just annoying as hell in a forum post - it's in-game emotes and they don't really work outside of FFXI, you know?

Edit: @Kingfury: you made your last post while I was still typing this. I understand what you are saying, and you might not like this post much. However, I'm not trying to attack you on a personal level, I'm just stating how I, and probably others too, perceive you on this forum. Oh and psst - the /emoting really is annoying. :(

[kingfury]

I'm talking about the tone of a quote Gg. The TONE. I have no idea how you've manage to go so far into into it.

Seeing as this is a sensitive subject for ya, I'll tap out of this one.

[Greatguardian]

I'm talking about the tone, too. How you've failed to see that is beyond me. I've only said it directly up to 5 times now.

I'll just settle with knowing that there are some absolutely horrid human beings out there, with the gall to compare the tone of some people on the internet to the pure, unadulterated hatred of the Nazi party.

[CrystalWeapon]

Well, the OP said so himself "if you don't wish to suggest anything, why waste time posting here?"

I, and everyone else on this forum, do have the right to disagree with someone and tell them why we think their idea is bad.

Also, certain personalities on this forum stick out like a sore thumb. It seems to me that because the OP got positive feedback from SE in his Gyms of Vana'diel" thread, his head swelled to immense proportions. And when it turned out that GoV wasn't Gyms of Vana'diel, he couldn't let it go. Finally, the /stagger, /salute etc, is just annoying as hell in a forum post - it's in-game emotes and they don't really work outside of FFXI, you know?

You do have the right to do so, just most people don't take the time to. I'm just noticing that it's usually the same people though that hop into certain topics with nothing more than the intention to attack and derail the thread. They have no intention on adding anything to the topic, nor do they say why they think the idea is bad.

When you flat out call someone an idiot, it usually causes that person to get defensive. After that they refuse to listen to anything you have to say whether or not you're trying to help. If you calmly tell them why they're wrong, you MAY get them to listen to you. Even if they don't, your opinion is out there for other people to read. You may educate others who are misinformed. I'm of course speaking in general and not specifically about this thread, nor am I acusing you of acting like this. From what I've seen Tamoa, you know how to disagree in a very calm way that gets your point across.

I just don't like how it resorts to crap like this that both sides are guilty of at this point.

[Chiibi]

O.o; whoa so much hate (but funny comments regardless.) but sadly im not for this idea its not really sensible to impliment most of what players come up with. the important stuff like af3 boots, job fixes and such should come first

[kingfury]

When people rally in ignorance, they'll find anything to pick out and magnify. Like CrstWpn. said, I'm not surprised that folks are finding any and everything they can to toss hate at.

The text version of our in-game emotes don't make sense anywhere else on the internet, that much I'll agree to, but I'm using them in a place where everyone viewing them knows exactly what they mean and where they come from. I don't know why a /salute would annoy you.

[kingfury]

O.o; whoa so much hate (but funny comments regardless.) but sadly im not for this idea its not really sensible to impliment most of what players come up with. the important stuff like af3 boots, job fixes and such should come first
-------------
By all means Chiibi, the important stuff would be in no danger of being overshadowed by this once a year contest. It would literally be for the fun of players suggesting ideas and hoping to see something unique enter the game.

[Greatguardian]

Honestly, I'd have been insulted even if it wasn't you and I had absolutely no history of dealing with you. There's "Finding any reason to yell at you", and there's being legitimately insulted (rare as hell for me on the internet) about an utterly ignorant and gross comparison of an internet attitude to one of the most notorious hatemongering cults of the 20th century.

[kingfury]

You do have the right to do so, just most people don't take the time to. I'm just noticing that it's usually the same people though that hop into certain topics with nothing more than the intention to attack and derail the thread. They have no intention on adding anything to the topic, nor do they say why they think the idea is bad.

When you flat out call someone an idiot, it usually causes that person to get defensive. After that they refuse to listen to anything you have to say whether or not you're trying to help. If you calmly tell them why they're wrong, you MAY get them to listen to you. Even if they don't, your opinion is out there for other people to read. You may educate others who are misinformed. I'm of course speaking in general and not specifically about this thread, nor am I acusing you of acting like this. From what I've seen Tamoa, you know how to disagree in a very calm way that gets your point across.

I just don't like how it resorts to crap like this that both sides are guilty of at this point.
---------------
I agree with you CrystWpn., and I never enjoy it when the hate crew show up to flood threads, regardless if it's my thread or any other. Ignoring disrespectful people is like trying to ignore someone shoving an old lady for me. It's how I'm wired I suppose. Some folks can look the other way and think nothing of it, while it tears me up to even see it. There's just some wrongs that should be dealt with. Especially if there's absolutely no grounds for such disrespect.

I just refused to be intimidated by such people, and attitudes. I'll keep trying to stay on topic, but some folks really do need to be booted in the butt a bit.

[Wataruryu]

Disagreeing with a post is one thing, "i need attention, mithra gave me herpes, personal deviantart" is another. When someone thinks another person is stupid and result to "hurhur you're retarded" personal attacks, it shows a lot of ignorance on their part. I'm all for correcting someone or inserting your opinion as to why their idea is wrong, but this berating that goes on towards targeted "idiots" is a bit much.

While I don't agree with a majority of his posts, I don't feel the need to attack him on a personal level to derail the topic every time he posts. I'm willing to bet whatever KF posts will be shot down instantaneously with the arguements "You're an idiot" "You just want attention" "Stop showing off your retarded drawings" regardless of if the original post has ANY merit to it at all.

Very much agreed, I see the same hand full of people putting others down in damn near every thread I go to read. These forums where created for exactly what King is doing, player feedback and ideas. So what he likes to show his art work with his suggestions; It's one of the ways that he likes to communicate his thoughts, and its a good one seeing as we humans are visual creatures. I'm not saying your not entitled to your opinion. If you feel something is a bad idea, you don't have to be so negative about it; You can say you don't like the idea without attacking the person, its really not necessary. I see these same people post in thread after thread insulting others like jealous little children, and derailing the thread from its intended purpose; Which to me seems sad because they seem to be very intelligent people yet they place their self in such a negative light. They seem to want to sabotage the forum, and keep it from doing what it was made for. King keep doing what it is you do. A hand full of people do not represent the whole, and a lot of others including my self are enjoying the ideas and artwork. Keep them coming no matter how silly it seems heh!

[Karbuncle]

While i agree there is a fine line between harassment and disagreeing.

The sad truth is, If you do not want a bad idea implemented you have to show you disagree with it. In every single thread that is a bad idea. If the parties in question simply stopped posting that they disagree with threads, some of those terrible ideas might actually be added.

Because if SE sees a topic that is inherently a bad idea, but no one objects to it, it might be considered, these aren't too dangerous really, they rarely happen.

the real problems are the threads that aren't inherently bad but Just do not make a lick of sense in FFXI and aren't worth the time/effort. Like Flying "mounts". (i vehemently hate most "MMO Slang" terms... Guild, Mount, DKP... Thats just me though)

So you might just see the same few names, but if they're giving a reason the idea is bad, it just proves they care about the Direction this game is going, because they continue to take the time to try and at least show SE there are some people in the community who feel the idea isn't thought-out/bad.

And yes, If i find something i disagree with i will give reasons as to why i don't consider it a good idea. I don't care if I'm labeled a troll by the slack-jawed 10yr-old internet posters who throw that word out left and right without knowing its definition.

I want FFXI to thrive, wasted Development time on things like "Cheese-Sandwich" is something i don't want happening again. So i can relate to those who will go to bad horrible idea threads and disagree with it, try to give reasons, and hopefully get through to some people.

On this thread, I don't think its a bad idea. It could lead to some really interesting stories, I think we should keep the rewards up to the Dev team though.

This forum isn't about vehemently circle-jerking eachothers bad ideas, Its about the freedom to exchange ideas and discussion, good or bad, agree or disagree, you accept the terms of threads when you post one. If you can't take criticism, Constructive, or not so constructive, you have no right to post a thread to begin with.

(Please note my above statement is directed and no 1 poster, just a general statement regarding my belief on forum actions)

[kingfury]

Honestly, I'd have been insulted even if it wasn't you and I had absolutely no history of dealing with you. There's "Finding any reason to yell at you", and there's being legitimately insulted (rare as hell for me on the internet) about an utterly ignorant and gross comparison of an internet attitude to one of the most notorious hatemongering cults of the 20th century.
--------
I tell ya what man, it's obviously a misunderstanding. If I used the wrong verbiage to say what I had to say, and offended you, my apologies. I felt it was pretty clear that I was referring to the tone and nature (both negative and hateful) of the quotes with what I said.

Obviously, I'm not comparing it to the full scale weight and agenda of nazi's Gg. I'll leave it at that man.

[kingfury]

@ Karbuncle:

No one has the freedom to disrespect someone on these boards Karbuncle while disagreeing with a Thread topic. If you can't find a respectful manner of disagreeing with someone, don't post is what CrystWpn. is saying.

I personally accept any and all criticism that is genuine and of a respectful nature regardless of if the poster agrees with me or not. What I can't stand is people making a sport of trying to trash other peoples suggestions simply for their enjoyment.

P.S. You can't say you're not targeting anyone with your post and then use one of my post in your examples lol >< Besides I gave some good reasons for including those flying rides (won't use mount since you don't like it) :)

[CrystalWeapon]

@Karb

Making it clear my comments were not about posters like yourself. You always post very clearly why you disagree with the other person. Even when said other person angrily attacks you for disagreeing, you break it down and post back why they are wrong. You have to admit though, that if this topic was posted by anyone else it wouldn't have gotten trolled as badly.

Not to sound to parent-ish, I just feel like said posters are capable of so much more. I'd rather log on and see more strategy, game mechanics, and guide posts instead of the constant bickering/trolling every single day.

[Yarly]

I'd rather log on and see more strategy, game mechanics, and guide posts instead of the constant bickering/trolling every single day.

It's unfortunate to see these forums reduced to the level of monkeys slinging feces at each other. Oh well!

[Wataruryu]

While i agree there is a fine line between harassment and disagreeing.

The sad truth is, If you do not want a bad idea implemented you have to show you disagree with it. In every single thread that is a bad idea. If the parties in question simply stopped posting that they disagree with threads, some of those terrible ideas might actually be added.

Because if SE sees a topic that is inherently a bad idea, but no one objects to it, it might be considered, these aren't too dangerous really, they rarely happen.

the real problems are the threads that aren't inherently bad but Just do not make a lick of sense in FFXI and aren't worth the time/effort. Like Flying "mounts". (i vehemently hate most "MMO Slang" terms... Guild, Mount, DKP... Thats just me though)

So you might just see the same few names, but if they're giving a reason the idea is bad, it just proves they care about the Direction this game is going, because they continue to take the time to try and at least show SE there are some people in the community who feel the idea isn't thought-out/bad.

And yes, If i find something i disagree with i will give reasons as to why i don't consider it a good idea. I don't care if I'm labeled a troll by the slack-jawed 10yr-old internet posters who throw that word out left and right without knowing its definition.

I want FFXI to thrive, wasted Development time on things like "Cheese-Sandwich" is something i don't want happening again. So i can relate to those who will go to bad horrible idea threads and disagree with it, try to give reasons, and hopefully get through to some people.

On this thread, I don't think its a bad idea. It could lead to some really interesting stories, I think we should keep the rewards up to the Dev team though.

This forum isn't about vehemently circle-jerking eachothers bad ideas, Its about the freedom to exchange ideas and discussion, good or bad, agree or disagree, you accept the terms of threads when you post one. If you can't take criticism, Constructive, or not so constructive, you have no right to post a thread to begin with.

(Please note my above statement is directed and no 1 poster, just a general statement regarding my belief on forum actions)

Totally agree with What you are saying, but on another note these same few people don't back up why they feel its a bad idea with good reasons. They instantly go on the attack with comments like "your an idiot and oh must be time to show off art his art work". Where in any of that can you find it to be conducive to what these forums are about? That's the point I was trying to get across. Its only after these same few have derailed the thread with their childish antics; You find that they seem to be intelligent in their communication BUT..... continue on in a harassing manor. It's just just not necessary. Take your response, it was a well thought out intelligent non insulting with reasoning for what you wanted to communicate. A far cry from "your an idiot" and I thank you for it, others should follow the example.

[Greatguardian]

@Karb

Making it clear my comments were not about posters like yourself. You always post very clearly why you disagree with the other person. Even when said other person angrily attacks you for disagreeing, you break it down and post back why they are wrong. You have to admit though, that if this topic was posted by anyone else it wouldn't have gotten trolled as badly.

Not to sound to parent-ish, I just feel like said posters are capable of so much more. I'd rather log on and see more strategy, game mechanics, and guide posts instead of the constant bickering/trolling every single day.

I'd honestly love to type out a guide post and put it on here. I've done so in the past on my linkshell's private site for jobs like PLD and WHM back when PLD was complicated. Unfortunately, I have the distinct feeling that "telling people how to play" will result in nothing more than what happened to Frost's Haste: A Guide thread. 30 pages of people bickering about their $12.95 and completely ignoring the amazing information presented to them.

Akujima and a few others have egged me on for weeks about the fact that I have 1400 posts and 0 created threads. I tell you what, if I thought a thread that I made would make the slightest difference, I would post one.

[kingfury]

How do you know it won't make a difference Gg? Who's your audience? The pack of Flamers that roam the boards, or actual players? Try posting it, and let the real players benefit from it. Don't let the 30 pages of bleh from posters that have nothing constructive to post keep you from voicing that which could potentially change the game for someone.

Nike's old slogan.

[Greatguardian]

Well considering the people generally referred to as "Flamers" (the BG crowd) are, as far as I can tell, in about the same boat I am, I doubt I'd be getting "flamed" by them.

It's not flaming that worries me. Not one bit.

[kingfury]

Well considering the people generally referred to as "Flamers" (the BG crowd) are, as far as I can tell, in about the same boat I am, I doubt I'd be getting "flamed" by them.

It's not flaming that worries me. Not one bit.
-------------
That's a good benefit then lol. What's causing you to not post it then?

[Greatguardian]

Ignorance. There is so much information readily available to people right now that anyone who wants or wanted to learn, has already learned. The vast majority of people who have not learned are people who do not want to learn.

Why try to teach someone who does not want to learn? You won't be happy. They won't be happy. Nobody is happy, and everyone is worse off for it.

[Khajit]

You do have the right to do so, just most people don't take the time to. I'm just noticing that it's usually the same people though that hop into certain topics with nothing more than the intention to attack and derail the thread. They have no intention on adding anything to the topic, nor do they say why they think the idea is bad.

When you flat out call someone an idiot, it usually causes that person to get defensive. After that they refuse to listen to anything you have to say whether or not you're trying to help. If you calmly tell them why they're wrong, you MAY get them to listen to you. Even if they don't, your opinion is out there for other people to read. You may educate others who are misinformed. I'm of course speaking in general and not specifically about this thread, nor am I acusing you of acting like this. From what I've seen Tamoa, you know how to disagree in a very calm way that gets your point across.

I just don't like how it resorts to crap like this that both sides are guilty of at this point.

Post with constructive criticism do happen alot on here and the constructive part is promptly ignored to take note of the fact that they aren't going "OMG YOU"RE AWESOME" which automatically mean's they're trolls or comparable to Nazi's. I might not be able to cite an exact percentage but it happens almost constantly. Then certain people bemoaning a lack of civil discussion don't get the irony of what they're saying which only pisses off & annoys the people TRYING to have a debate because when you feel like you're talking to a brick wall it's a fair assumption that the person you're speaking with is just about as intelligent as one which brings about even more motivation to stop them from spreading bad ideas. And the cycle continues.

[Myrrh]

What I've got from this thread is that anyone who disagrees with Kingfury is no better than people who slaughtered millions of Jews.

[kingfury]

What I've got from this thread is that anyone who disagrees with Kingfury is no better than people who slaughtered millions of Jews.
------------
Even after everything that's been said Myrrh? Really? This kind of post...

[cidbahamut]

Godwin's Law.

Hilarious.

[kingfury]

Post with constructive criticism do happen alot on here and the constructive part is promptly ignored to take note of the fact that they aren't going "OMG YOU"RE AWESOME" which automatically mean's they're trolls or comparable to Nazi's. I might not be able to cite an exact percentage but it happens almost constantly. Then certain people bemoaning a lack of civil discussion don't get the irony of what they're saying which only pisses off & annoys the people TRYING to have a debate because when you feel like you're talking to a brick wall it's a fair assumption that the person you're speaking with is just about as intelligent as one which brings about even more motivation to stop them from spreading bad ideas. And the cycle continues.
---------------------
"Trying to have a debate"? Lets review these debatable topics:

•"Is it even possible for you to go even 5 minutes without stroking yourself?
(your ego)"

•"It's still easier for them to invent something on their own that works than to wade through the player's suggestions.
The junk you make alone would waste an eternity."

•"Well for one I've suggested you STOP doing this nonsense over an over in a blatant attempt to stroke your ego. Why do you think me being content to let the people I'm PAYING to make up ideas FOR me to have fun with is a crime? Sure I could say X needs to be changed but I can also say I'll go quit and play pokemon instead until the next patch. The responsibility is on THEM to make this game continue to be interesting to me and not on me to turn it into a my little pony playground.

And your argument you just posted is yet another logical fallacy since more ideas does not mean the ratio of complete and utter shit ideas vs decent/tolerable/good ones will invert itself. It merely means that the dev teams have to wade through even MORE garbage, figure out if it's even possible to do the half good ones individually, possibly let some ridiculously horrible nonsense through because at least one person in the production line wont play the game enough to realize the idea sucks, tie up resources via playtesting the ideas, and so on and so forth through the entire process."
-----------

Where's the debate in regards to the thread topic? I see tear down, after tear down, some flaming, and more tear downs. Nothing you've posted holds an ounce of respectful "debatable" criticism. In the above quoted post from you, your twisting my words and continuing the same trend.

[cidbahamut]

Kingfury, you mentioned Nazis. Stop posting. You've lost.

[Greatguardian]

Tell you what, though. I still have a 12-page long Endgame Paladin guide that I wrote up for my linkshell in early 2010. It's all but completely obsolete now, as Paladin is essentially useless and CdC absolutely destroys Atonement. But I'd definitely be willing to post it in the PLD subforum or GD as a nostalgia bomb / informational tool. I definitely cover Enmity mechanics, which are largely unknown and misconstrued by the majority of the FFXI population.

If people really want to see a "thread contribution" from a BG mouthpiece, I'd be more than happy to oblige.

[kingfury]

Kingfury, you mentioned Nazis. Stop posting. You've lost.
-------------
I know what I posted, and I know you're one of the "Said posters" in question at the moment Cid. No need to add what's already in abundance to the conversation.

[cidbahamut]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

You mentioned Nazis. On an internet forum. Do you understand the cultural implications of what you have done?

[kingfury]

Tell you what, though. I still have a 12-page long Endgame Paladin guide that I wrote up for my linkshell in early 2010. It's all but completely obsolete now, as Paladin is essentially useless and CdC absolutely destroys Atonement. But I'd definitely be willing to post it in the PLD subforum or GD as a nostalgia bomb / informational tool. I definitely cover Enmity mechanics, which are largely unknown and misconstrued by the majority of the FFXI population.

If people really want to see a "thread contribution" from a BG mouthpiece, I'd be more than happy to oblige.
--------------
If it's helpful on any level, there's no need to ask about if people want to see it Gg. Just post that puppy.

[Khajit]

---------------------
"Trying to have a debate"? Lets review these debatable topics:

•"Is it even possible for you to go even 5 minutes without stroking yourself?
(your ego)"

•"It's still easier for them to invent something on their own that works than to wade through the player's suggestions.
The junk you make alone would waste an eternity."

•"Well for one I've suggested you STOP doing this nonsense over an over in a blatant attempt to stroke your ego. Why do you think me being content to let the people I'm PAYING to make up ideas FOR me to have fun with is a crime? Sure I could say X needs to be changed but I can also say I'll go quit and play pokemon instead until the next patch. The responsibility is on THEM to make this game continue to be interesting to me and not on me to turn it into a my little pony playground.

And your argument you just posted is yet another logical fallacy since more ideas does not mean the ratio of complete and utter shit ideas vs decent/tolerable/good ones will invert itself. It merely means that the dev teams have to wade through even MORE garbage, figure out if it's even possible to do the half good ones individually, possibly let some ridiculously horrible nonsense through because at least one person in the production line wont play the game enough to realize the idea sucks, tie up resources via playtesting the ideas, and so on and so forth through the entire process."
-----------

Where's the debate in regards to the thread topic? I see tear down, after tear down, some flaming, and more tear downs. Nothing you've posted holds an ounce of respectful "debatable" criticism. In the above quoted post from you, your twisting my words and continuing the same trend.

So on a scale of one to ten with ten being Fuhrer rank how Nazi-like would you say that pointing out valid reasons against your ideas being implemented in addition to pointing out logic errors you are making in the unlikely event you learn not to make said logical fallacies are?

[kingfury]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

You mentioned Nazis. On an internet forum. Do you understand the cultural implications of what you have done?
---------------
lol It is pretty funny that such a "Law" exist. It's pretty weak though imo, since as long as you the topic being discussed is devoid any concepts that resemble the mentality of nazi's, you should be fine. Hell, if that law was true, I would have brought up the term nazi in damn near every thread topic where the "Flame crew" popped up to spit flame in lol.

Funny though.

[Khajit]

I don't think you seem to understand Godwin's law here. Try improving your reading level and check the wiki again.

[kingfury]

So on a scale of one to ten with ten being Fuhrer rank how Nazi-like would you say that pointing out valid reasons against your ideas being implemented in addition to pointing out logic errors you are making in the unlikely event you learn not to make said logical fallacies are?
------------
Can you point out the "Valid reasons" part for me? Honestly. In everything I just posted from you, which part held respectable valid reasons geared towards the thread topic? Anything that didn't include a tear down.

[Khajit]

The fact that you cant figure it out only proves the original quote which you're quite ironically calling trolling.

[CrystalWeapon]

Tell you what, though. I still have a 12-page long Endgame Paladin guide that I wrote up for my linkshell in early 2010. It's all but completely obsolete now, as Paladin is essentially useless and CdC absolutely destroys Atonement. But I'd definitely be willing to post it in the PLD subforum or GD as a nostalgia bomb / informational tool. I definitely cover Enmity mechanics, which are largely unknown and misconstrued by the majority of the FFXI population.

If people really want to see a "thread contribution" from a BG mouthpiece, I'd be more than happy to oblige.

You're obviously very intelligent in a myriad of different subjects. When my ls mate was complaining about an incident, you explained the claim mechanics of this game very clearly and I respect that.

I'd love to read your guide just for the details on enmity mechanics. Sure you'll get people that will try to drag it into an arguement of "I play how I want to play" but those people are a lost cause anyways. Guides like yours are golden for people that want to improve their playability on any given job.

[kingfury]

I don't think you seem to understand Godwin's law here. Try improving your reading level and check the wiki again.
-------------
Nah I read it, and my reading level is just fine.

I was referring to the Law itself in that the concept of the law is funny. I get what Cid is trying to say in terms of me "Losing" the discussion from the line that states:

•"there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically "lost" whatever debate was in progress"
but the fact of the matter is, it wasn't a "debate" at all, and I referred to the quotes being used as "nazi-like" as a means to define their nature and tone. In this case, the line below deals with the subject better in regards to this specific occurrence.

•"A 2005 Reason magazine article argued that Godwin's law is often misused to ridicule even valid comparisons."
**EDIT
Not to again bring up the whole "bad comparison" discussion again that me and Gg was having. I'm just pointing out the reason.

[Khajit]

Would you rank the posts as SWINEHUND? FFXI= Valid comparison to Nazis?

[kingfury]

Would you rank the posts as SWINEHUND? FFXI= Valid comparison to Nazis?
-------------
Enough.

[Greatguardian]

You're obviously very intelligent in a myriad of different subjects. When my ls mate was complaining about an incident, you explained the claim mechanics of this game very clearly and I respect that.

I'd love to read your guide just for the details on enmity mechanics. Sure you'll get people that will try to drag it into an arguement of "I play how I want to play" but those people are a lost cause anyways. Guides like yours are golden for people that want to improve their playability on any given job.

Thank you, I appreciate the compliments. I do think you flatter me a bit, though.

The official forums did not really take well to the formatting I originally had, so it looks a bit bulkier than it is. However, the thread is here (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/10087-A-Treatise-on-Fundamental-Game-Mechanics-in-the-Context-of-Early-2010-Paladin) if you're interested.

[kingfury]

Thank you, I appreciate the compliments. I do think you flatter me a bit, though.

The official forums did not really take well to the formatting I originally had, so it looks a bit bulkier than it is. However, the thread is here (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/10087-A-Treatise-on-Fundamental-Game-Mechanics-in-the-Context-of-Early-2010-Paladin) if you're interested.
--------------
Grats on the informative post Gg. Keep'em coming.

[Minsc]

It will simply mean we'll have something to actually "talk about" when you do post such alternatives/solutions vs. your nazi-like, tear down quotes lol. Regardless of if the quote says it for ya, it's still swimming in flame.

Ok, so after reading all of posts after this...

My honest opinions in the form of quotes is flaming, tear downing and nazi-like. However, telling me to not express my opinion in the best way I know how takes away my freedom of speech, so... wouldn't that be sorta "nazi-like"? Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not accusing you of being like that (cause that would be pretty wrong). But just trying to make you understand that asking people not to flame you is just as bad as people asking you not to post your ideas. Everyone is entitle to their opinion whether it's a flame or not.

What boggles my mind is that in just about every one of your posts since the Gym idea, you get a few people telling you that they don't like it and all of a sudden the topic changes to a discussion about your right to post whatever the hell you want. You get off topic and it all goes down here from there.

Keep in mind, many have not simply asked you to stop posting, they've just asked you to stop posting stupid ideas. As I've said, I want you to keep posting. Stupid or not, everyone has that right. It just so happens that most of yours, in my opinion (which I'm entitled to), give me something to smile about during what would normally be a boring work day. ^^

Edit: BTW, none of my posts have ever been "hate-filled"

[Shibayama]

Ok, so after reading all of posts after this...

My honest opinions in the form of quotes is flaming, tear downing and nazi-like. However, telling me to not express my opinion in the best way I know how takes away my freedom of speech, so... wouldn't that be sorta "nazi-like"? Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not accusing you of being like that (cause that would be pretty wrong). But just trying to make you understand that asking people not to flame you is just as bad as people asking you not to post your ideas. Everyone is entitle to their opinion whether it's a flame or not.

Oh boy... that freedom of speech invocation just threw me back to this lol. I think everybody involved would do good to reflect on this.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n110/Shibayama/argument_techniques.jpg

I think what Kingfury is getting at is "You can disagree and not make me feel stupid for suggesting it."

SE isn't throwing a dart at a list of topics and picking one to focus dev time over something else. You can rest easy knowing that you can simply say "I disagree" and maybe give a reason why, and that the FFXI community does not need people to quash ideas you don't want to see picked up for fear they'll take away from something else.

[Minsc]

Ok, I see you've only taken a portion of my post and responded to that part only again, so let's try this...

Many of the above posters are asking King to stop posting stupid ideas as they feel he's only doing it to gain attention from SE and anyone else that will read it and show case new art.

King is asking people to stop flaming and tearing down his ideas.

So...

Stop posting stupid ideas = Stop flaming my ideas?

Would you not agree that he has just as much right to post his ideas (stupid or not) as much as people have the right to flame it? Sure it might not be very nice, but both parties are entitled to their opinion. It's a free forum. If your worried about getting flamed, worried about getting your feelings hurt, don't post. If you think his ideas will be stupid, don't read them. However, if you choose to keep posting ideas, you run that risk of people not liking them and voicing their opinions in whatever way they want.

Besides, you're a Galka, your skin should already be pretty thick.

[kingfury]

That's the logic of an immature, and disrespectful person. If you honestly believe that has any respectful worth in terms of validating how you voice your opinions, this conversation is over.

"Many of the above posters" that choose to flame others suggestions have zero ideas posted to even compare what they believe is a "non-stupid" idea so their opinions hold little value when they choose to tear down someone else's with things like, "this is a bad idea" or "this is a stupid idea". If you have no ideas posted and you disagree with an idea, but you give valid reasons in a respectful manner, you're fine. It's when you choose to think you opinion and stance validates your right to smash and tear down another's idea that you're in the wrong. If you're going to voice your distaste for an idea, have enough creativity to propose something that could enhance the concept or offer another alternative. Then you can have a respectful debate that is "Constructive" instead of belittling and demeaning.

What do you think is a "good idea"?! Post it, and have something to compare before you spend 1000 post tearing down others all over the boards. It's just a better defense than the 3rd grader logic of, "I can tell you that you suck because I can". And NO I would NOT agree that anyone has the right to flame any idea on this forum. Show some maturity and respect and go read the forum guidelines again if you need to validate that fact.

I'm doing exactly what a poster that loves this game should be doing, posting suggestions to the friggin' Devs. If you're on these forums, it's fine to voice your opinions and speak freely on the topics posted, but there's no law here that states you must do it while calling someone, (from one of your nice quotes)"Idiot" x4 just to get your point across. I'm not posting them for anyone else's approval, especially not the self centered people that have taken it upon themselves to be the "Smash Ideas Forum Police". If you don't know how to communicate properly with respect and maturity, go learn to do that before you post. None of the crab-like posters here are deterring me one bit from posting ideas and suggestions to the Devs.

Even this very post is done in a manner that doesn't "smash you" for posting what you posted. It's not hard to respect people. Just try it.

[Kimble]

Seriously? No one has to give a reason why they don't like an idea. If they don't like it, have no interest in using your idea if it WAS added to the game, that's good enough.

Above all else, it's a "video game forum". Expecting everyone to act "professional" (which is basically what you are saying) is just crazy.

[Vagrua]

Seriously? No one has to give a reason why they don't like an idea. If they don't like it, have no interest in using your idea if it WAS added to the game, that's good enough.

Above all else, it's a "video game forum". Expecting everyone to act "professional" (which is basically what you are saying) is just crazy.

It seems to me that people aren't just saying that they dislike his threads, but bashing him for just suggesting his ideas and posting his fan art. If they don't like his ideas or art, then they don't have to post comments to try to demoralize him. Everyone should have a right to express their ideas to an extent and some of the people here are making it seem like that when he posts his ideas, that they aren't welcome at all in these forums.

[kingfury]

Seriously? No one has to give a reason why they don't like an idea. If they don't like it, have no interest in using your idea if it WAS added to the game, that's good enough.

Above all else, it's a "video game forum". Expecting everyone to act "professional" (which is basically what you are saying) is just crazy.
----------------
Nah, it's called being "mature" and "respectful". Who said anything about being professional? I said exactly what I meant, so there's no "basically" to it. Immature folks won't get the concept, but adults shouldn't really argue with it. I'm just highlighting what the forum guidelines say, so if you think it's "crazy" to be respectful to other posters, send your concerns to the Mods of the forums.

And you're right, no one has to give reasons to why they don't like an idea if they don't wish to be a constructive poster. Posting stuff like, "This is a horrible idea" shows you're here to just tear down others vs. voicing your opinion in a "General Discussion" forum. There's no Discussion with that kind of post, it's just a tear down opinion.

[Kimble]

Being Mature and respectful is pretty much what being professional is.

And this is the thing, its not like people are attacking you after one idea. You have given your self a rep now, and its once a week, post an "idea" that usually isnt every good, that goes along with you changing your sig once a week.

Even when people do give you reasons they dont like your idea, either in concept or technical issues behind why it cant be done, you just go "Welll thats for the devs to decide!" or "nah you're wrong, with advances in technology it CAN be done!"

And yeah again, if you want to go on about being mature and respectful, dont go against it when others do it to you. IE: Nazi-like.

[Minsc]

Wow, where to begin...


That's the logic of an immature, and disrespectful person. If you honestly believe that has any respectful worth in terms of validating how you voice your opinions, this conversation is over.

You calling me immature is a form of flaming.



"Many of the above posters" that choose to flame others suggestions have zero ideas posted to even compare what they believe is a "non-stupid" idea so their opinions hold little value when they choose to tear down someone else's with things like, "this is a bad idea" or "this is a stupid idea".

So again, we have to post ideas in order for our opinions to have any value. Right...



If you have no ideas posted and you disagree with an idea, but you give valid reasons in a respectful manner, you're fine.

Ok, so now it only has value if it is what you define as a valid reason, otherwise it's a flame.



It's when you choose to think you opinion and stance validates your right to smash and tear down another's idea that you're in the wrong.

What you think is a flame might be someone's valid response. Not everyone can voice their opinion in the way you demand. I did not realize there were so many rules attached to your posts.



If you're going to voice your distaste for an idea, have enough creativity to propose something that could enhance the concept or offer another alternative. Then you can have a respectful debate that is "Constructive" instead of belittling and demeaning.

So telling someone to respond the way you want them to or don't respond at all is not belittling and demeaning?



What do you think is a "good idea"?! Post it, and have something to compare before you spend 1000 post tearing down others all over the boards. It's just a better defense than the 3rd grader logic of, "I can tell you that you suck because I can". And NO I would NOT agree that anyone has the right to flame any idea on this forum. Show some maturity and respect and go read the forum guidelines again if you need to validate that fact.

Careful, telling people they have "3rd grader logic" could be consider a flame.



I'm doing exactly what a poster that loves this game should be doing, posting suggestions to the friggin' Devs.

I personally never told you to stop posting. In fact, I encouraged more posting.



If you're on these forums, it's fine to voice your opinions and speak freely on the topics posted, but there's no law here that states you must do it while calling someone, (from one of your nice quotes)"Idiot" x4 just to get your point across.

No law saying we can't either. That's the point of "speaking freely".




I'm not posting them for anyone else's approval, especially not the self centered people that have taken it upon themselves to be the "Smash Ideas Forum Police".

"Self centered"? This coming from the guy that some would say is only posting because you are trying to stroke your own ego and display new artwork.



If you don't know how to communicate properly with respect and maturity, go learn to do that before you post. None of the crab-like posters here are deterring me one bit from posting ideas and suggestions to the Devs.

Careful, telling people they are "crab-like" could be consider a flame. Just remember the last time you made a ____-like comparison and how that turned out.



Even this very post is done in a manner that doesn't "smash you" for posting what you posted. It's not hard to respect people. Just try it.

You're right, calling someone immature, having 3rd grader logic and crab-like certainly doesn't smash or flame them.

[kingfury]

@ Minsc:

Dude you're arguing against being mature and respectful. Is there any reason to continue? Trust me, I've dealt with folks that do what you're doing, and NOTHING, no matter how simple the concept is that I put forth will be processed at this point. I'm very much done on the topic. There's nothing to discuss.

It's not how I want or think you should post, check out the forum guidelines man. And WHY in the friggin' world would you care about what's being put in my signature?! It's a friggin profile feature that I have the freedom to change whenever and to whatever I want. That's what you're choosing to point out?!

[Kimble]

No, hes saying you are asking people to be mature and respect when you don't do that yourself.

[kingfury]

Being Mature and respectful is pretty much what being professional is.

And this is the thing, its not like people are attacking you after one idea. You have given your self a rep now, and its once a week, post an "idea" that usually isnt every good, that goes along with you changing your sig once a week.

Even when people do give you reasons they dont like your idea, either in concept or technical issues behind why it cant be done, you just go "Welll thats for the devs to decide!" or "nah you're wrong, with advances in technology it CAN be done!"

And yeah again, if you want to go on about being mature and respectful, dont go against it when others do it to you. IE: Nazi-like.
---------------
Nah, I'm pretty sure professional has a different definition than mature and respectful. You need both traits to achieve professionalism, but they don't mean the same thing. There's no "pretty much" to that fact. You don't need to be professional at all on these forums to voice your opinions, but being mature and respectful is a great practice.

Kimble your 1st post on this thread was targeted towards my signature, not my thread topic. Not even your 2nd or 3rd post was on topic, but rather attacks at me. Why do you care about what's in my signature? Of all things to give a rat about, you care about my signature?! You've given yourself a rep as well, and it's find every thread Kingfury post and say something negative about. I'm at least posting ideas. I'd much rather have a rep that is constructive and doesn't center around tearing people down man. Whether you believe they are good ideas or not, does NOT warrant you posting something to tear down each one.

I've never once used the words "you're wrong" towards someone's opposing opinion of any suggestions I've posted. If I did, find it and post it for me to see please. Defending my opinion is also not smashing someone or tearing them down Kimble.

[Kimble]

Post a good idea and ill give you a positive remark.

Trust me, your rep isnt being constructive.

And I just find it an awfully strange coincidence that every week you change your sig, that you also have a new "idea" to go along with it.

[kingfury]

Post a good idea and ill give you a positive remark.

Trust me, your rep isnt being constructive.

And I just find it an awfully strange coincidence that every week you change your sig, that you also have a new "idea" to go along with it.
-----------------
PLEASE take your own advice on the posting of good ideas, or any ideas for that matter. Then I can have a "discussion" with you about one of your thread post.

Kimble if mine isn't constructive, then what is yours? I'm not following you around and trying to find things to toss flame at on these forums. You won't find a page on this entire forum that displays me tearing down other's suggestions to the Devs. Not one. Now tell me what your rep consist of. Is it positive or constructive in any way towards what these threads are designed for?

If I changed it every day, 2 weeks, month, or 2 months, it wouldn't make a lick of difference to someone that's looking for something to poke negativity towards. They'd still find a problem with it. It's a profile feature that I choose to take advantage of Kimble. Why should it matter to you what's in it? If we could change our profile pictures, would you care if I changed that to something new every week as well?

[Kimble]

What own advice? Im not posting ideas to get any kind of feedback. Doesn't mean I dont have a right to tell you I don't like your ideas and why they wont work.

Again, I dont have to come up with an idea, just to tell you yours is a bad one/wont work.

[kingfury]

What own advice? Im not posting ideas to get any kind of feedback. Doesn't mean I dont have a right to tell you I don't like your ideas and why they wont work.

Again, I dont have to come up with an idea, just to tell you yours is a bad one/wont work.
-------------
THIS. You just said it.
"Post a good idea and ill give you a positive remark."

Try it yourself. Any idea. I'm posting suggestions to the DEVs Kimble, not to anyone else.

[Kimble]

In that case King, why even leave your thread open to be discussed? If you ONLY want your ideas to go to the devs and no one else, post it, close the tread and leave it at that. If a Community member would like to respond to it, they can still post in a thread that you closed.

[kingfury]

Because I don't mind "DISCUSSING" anything with anyone. I realize this is a "General discussion" forum, and I don't mind opposing opinions one bit. It's posters that don't post with a "discussion" tone in the least that lose me. "Looks like it's time to show off this weeks artwork" has nothing to do with the thread I posted Kimble.

My point is that I'm not posting specifically to get feedback from anyone else other than the Devs. All other feedback that's tacked onto a thread post is welcome so long as it's not attempts at tearing down an idea just for the sport of it.

Don't stray away from the last post Kimble. TRY IT for yourself man.

[Kimble]

Try what for my self? I personally dont care to give any idea or suggestions because I don't have any I care about or think its worth the time for the Development team to look at.

Regardless, it doesn't mean I cant voice my displeasure in your idea or agree with others that don't like your idea.

I don't need my own idea to know your ideas are something that can't be done or something that I would have 0 interest in doing if it were added.

[Minsc]

@ Minsc:

Dude you're arguing against being mature and respectful. Is there any reason to continue?

I'm plenty mature and respectful to people like my parents, siblings, grandparents, friends, neighbors, teachers, etc...



Trust me, I've dealt with folks that do what you're doing, and NOTHING, no matter how simple the concept is that I put forth will be processed at this point. I'm very much done on the topic. There's nothing to discuss.

Yeah, kinda doing the same thing yourself there ain't yeah? Don't or won't try and see anything from someone else's point of view so I don't want to talk about it anymore. Instead of responding to what I wrote, you're just done. My 5 year old kids play this same game with me...

"It was funny when I pushed her, but then she push me back and I don't like it... I don't wanna play anymore!"



It's not how I want or think you should post, check out the forum guidelines man.

Except that it sorta is... You post an idea, then get all upset when some people don't like it. You then proceed to go on a 12 page rant about how you can post what you like, but others can't. Keep in mind, I never once told you to stop posting. ^^



And WHY in the friggin' world would you care about what's being put in my signature?! It's a friggin profile feature that I have the freedom to change whenever and to whatever I want. That's what you're choosing to point out?!

To quote you...


Reading is fun!

And to quote myself...



"Self centered"? This coming from the guy that some would say is only posting because you are trying to stroke your own ego and display new artwork.

Don't seem to recall ever personally saying you were only posting to showcase new art. However, if you can find it, I'll certainly admit I was wrong about that part. ^^

[Minsc]

What you think is a flame might be someone's valid response. Not everyone can voice their opinion in the way you demand. I did not realize there were so many rules attached to your posts.


All other feedback that's tacked onto a thread post is welcome so long as it's not attempts at tearing down an idea just for the sport of it.

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[kingfury]

Try what for my self? I personally dont care to give any idea or suggestions because I don't have any I care about or think its worth the time for the Development team to look at.

Regardless, it doesn't mean I cant voice my displeasure in your idea or agree with others that don't like your idea.

I don't need my own idea to know your ideas are something that can't be done or something that I would have 0 interest in doing if it were added.
--------------
You frequent a General discussion page on a Suggestion forum and you have zero input whatsoever other than tearing down other peoples suggestions? Lets change this right now man.

You mean to tell me there's not one single thing you can think to post that you would like to see either changed, enhanced, tweaked, or implemented in this game? Nothing? Kimble, just take a moment and think. I want to hear one good suggestion from you. Doesn't have to be a full all out post, I just want to hear a suggestion. One suggestion.

[StingRay104]

throw in some player made equip and this is most epic idea ever, but beware most the gear will be pup gear cuz lets face it SE is clueless on pup gear lol.

[Kimble]

Lets stop there King. Other then saying your threads are just a forum to show off your artwork, how exactly have I "teared down" your ideas other then tell you why they wont work or why people wouldnt really be interested in them?

Pretty sure I already gave you a suggestion in this very same thread.

[CrystalWeapon]

Going to make a few suggestions in a very nice way. It's up to you to follow them or not. It may or may not get people off of your back.

- Close this thread, it's gotten no positive feedback. It's ok to be proud of your ideas, but it's also fine to accept a loss now and then.

- When you get negative feedback, listen to it. Again, it's ok to be proud of your ideas, but it's also fine to accept a loss. If you have 8 people telling you something might not work out, adjust your original post or nix out what is a no go. Whether you see it or not, you do tend to brush off negative suggestions. At times it is like talking to a brick wall when they say "This would just not work out b/c of blah" and you come back with "Well I'm sure they'd find a way to do it."

- Post with the intention of "This would be cool to see, but I won't get my hopes up" instead of "Hey devs, you should add this" especially if the idea is kinda out there. I know you don't mean to be arrogant, but it does come that way still. You should really stop ending threads with the whole "Thanks for listening devs!" It's another thing that makes you seem a bit arrogant, and vying for attention.

- It's cool if you change your sig every week, but you don't have to force an idea every week. Try to focus on quality over quantity. Really think something out, and wait till you have something you think people would get behind. Come up with ideas that would make things more convient for the playerbase, and not just your specific situation.

- (This is a big one) Don't reply to every single person in your threads. I know you want to seem responsive, but it doesn't come out well when over half the responses in your thread are from you. I'm not saying to not respond to people, just cut back on how often you do it.

- Try to cut back on the drawings if you can. I know you're proud of your work, but not every idea warrants a handful of pictures. The focus of the thread should be the idea, not the artwork.


I don't want to douse your creativity. I just want to try and help you get it across without having such negative feedback every time you do so. Take my advice if you want. I'm not a mod so I'm done trying to calm the back and forth that's been going on since page 1. Resume the arguing if you want.

[kingfury]

@ Minsc:

Having a discussion with you is just painful man. >< I honestly find it difficult to watch you break apart every single line and sentence and twist and misconstrue what's being said. It's the equivalent of this:

• Kingfury says "A B C D E F G"

• Minsc interprets "G C E A B F D"
Nothing I've said is hard to understand Minsc, so watching you do this break apart thing with my post is very discouraging. I know how to have a mature discussion, so when you're ready to do that, I'm all for it.

[Kimble]

I'm pretty he HAS been having a mature discussion.

FYI Agreeing with everything you say =/= being mature.

[Minsc]

@ Minsc:

Having a discussion with you is just painful man. >< I honestly find it difficult to watch you break apart every single line and sentence and twist and misconstrue what's being said.

Not twisting around anything, I quoted what you said and responded to what you said. Give me an example of me twisting your own words. Be sure to leave out, "I said this, but meant this..." in your example. Say what you mean n' stuff



It's the equivalent of this:

• Kingfury says "A B C D E F G"

• Minsc interprets "G C E A B F D"


Wow, actually a tad bit offended here... Am I to understand you think I'm mentally challenged? If not, again, say what you mean. Leave nothing to interpretation.



Nothing I've said is hard to understand Minsc, so watching you do this break apart thing with my post is very discouraging.

So I'm mentally challenge and slow? LOL

I understand everything you've said, doesn't mean I have to agree with it to be "mature".



I know how to have a mature discussion, so when you're ready to do that, I'm all for it.

Been trying to have a mature discussion with you, which is why I'm responding to ALL of your post of instead picking certain parts out and responding only to those. ^^

[kingfury]

@ CrystWpn.:

I can't except some of this stuff man, even though you have a pretty good track record for being a voice of reason. Some of these suggestions go hand and hand with the mentalities that want to put me in a box that forces me to be the same way everyone else feels I should be. Though some of these things I can respect and I thank you for offering up the advice.

I've never have a problem with "negative feedback" or opposing opinions with my threads. Again, it's the flamers that are not welcome. Anyone that wishes to have a discussion with me about any suggestion in a respectful manner is fine by me. "This idea is stupid" is not something I can really have a discussion about y'know?

I also don't weigh there worth based on what other posters believe about them. If I get a response from the Devs saying my idea is not possible or that it's not the directions they wish to go in, then I can chalk it up as "loss". How is it arrogant if I'm ending a post by addressing who it's being suggested to? There's no way anyone should find fault in my thankings to a group of very busy Game developers for having an "open door" policy to their players.

None of my ideas are "Forced". If I was posting a suggestion every single day of the week, perhaps, but posting at least one suggestion every week gives me plenty of time to think about what I want to say to the Devs. This goes hand and hand with my occasional illustrations that are included in most of my threads. It's not about being "proud" at all, as much as it's about me being an actual illustrator in real life. That's my profession, and how I help explain my thoughts. Anyone could do the same by using photos and other types of visual aids if they choose. I only add illustrations where I feel their helpful and the fact that they're super loose and sketchy is proof that I'm not trying to show off at all. Their simply sketches to help "illustrate" my thoughts.

Not responding to every post is something I'm trying to get better with, but some folks make it really hard lol. I'm trying to get better at ignoring the flame post, but boy is it tough. I'm not one to back down from a fight, or bullying, so it's a pretty new concept to say the least. I'll keep working on it though.

Closing a thread at these points, unfortunately, is about the best solution seeing as it has dragged on to this point.

Thanks again.

[Minsc]

@ CrystWpn.:

It's not about being "proud" at all, as much as it's about me being an actual illustrator in real life. That's my profession, and how I help explain my thoughts. Anyone could do the same by using photos and other types of visual aids if they choose. I only add illustrations where I feel their helpful and the fact that they're super lose and sketchy is proof that I'm not trying to show off at all. Their simply sketches to help "illustrate" my thoughts.

Whoa whoa whoa... How then do you know that I'm not a comedian in real life, or a big movie/TV buff? I've used a couple quotes to "illustrate my thoughts" and you found fault with it. LMAO!!!

[Khiinroye]

Your title is "Contests for Implementing Player Suggested Content" which DOES imply that the winner of the contest will have the idea implemented. IIRC, with the fanart contests, it was the community team who judged that, not the devs. For this suggestion, even with the community reps filtering for the obviously unbalanced gear, the dev team would still need to take time out of their schedule to analyze the balance of the suggestions that get passed to them. The test server could not be used to analyze the various items, because that would take the contest and change it from being a SE-judged contest to a community-judged contest, which could be organized without SE getting involved.

If you take out the stats or the implementation of the gear, then it is just another fanart contest, with different themes. I don't think anyone would mind that. I didn't see anyone oppose the suggestions from earlier in the thread of fanfiction contests (again, community rep judges and not the devs) or creating designs for no-stat event gear. The devs would still need to get involved via creating the armor/weapons, but the winner could be selected by the community team purely based on aesthetics, rather than game balance. For this thread, it is the suggestion of implementing of player-suggested gear with stats that people oppose.


I'm posting suggestions to the DEVs

This is not a "Suggestion forum," it is "General Discussion" forum in the "COMMUNITY" section which means that anything you put here is open to discussion, and is not a direct line to the devs. The dev team doesn't even read all these threads; the community reps do that, and they might pass good ideas to the devs. People responding to threads saying that ideas are bad because they can see that it is unbalanced, or they think it is a waste of time, or they plain don't want the developers to look at something they won't enjoy. People have differing opinions on suggestions, and any positive or negative feedback is an attempt to convince the reps as to whether or not the idea is good or bad, or just a fun idea that, while entertaining to discuss, really shouldn't be added.

The "thanks for listening devs" at the end of all your suggestions implies that you think that the devs read all your posts; while this is a mistake on your part in how these forums work, it is easily misread as arrogance in assuming that all your suggestions get passed to the devs.

As to your current sig, Ifrit in FFXI has a short snout, the omission of which makes the face look distorted. I personally do not like the image--just my opinion, and the reason why I think so.


Don't reply to every single person in your threads.
Not quite; it is fine to reply to everyone, but try to multiquote, rather than making a new post for each reply. You have up to 10,000 characters per post. There are many people on this forum guilty of that, and it is a peeve of many other people, as it is often seen as trying to pad the post count.



Try to cut back on the drawings if you can. I know you're proud of your work, but not every idea warrants a handful of pictures. The focus of the thread should be the idea, not the artwork.
Nah, the pictures going with the ideas are fine, since they have to be links on these forums.

[Kimble]

See that was the idea I had. If the contest was to design the look of a level 1, body, no stat, piece of event gear that would then be added to the game, I would have no problem with that. I think something like that would be much more fun and less of a hassle.

Ive read the OP several times and I dont see anything there saying that but when I said it earlier in this thread, he tried to pass it off as it was part of his idea.

[CrystalWeapon]

@ KF

It's all about perception. What you might see as a formality could be easily misinterpreted as something else. I'm just giving you insight on how certain things you do are viewed, and suggesting ways you could certain things so that you aren't viewed in that light. I'm in no way telling you, you HAVE to conform to this or that.

[kingfury]

Your title is "Contests for Implementing Player Suggested Content" which DOES imply that the winner of the contest will have the idea implemented. IIRC, with the fanart contests, it was the community team who judged that, not the devs. For this suggestion, even with the community reps filtering for the obviously unbalanced gear, the dev team would still need to take time out of their schedule to analyze the balance of the suggestions that get passed to them. The test server could not be used to analyze the various items, because that would take the contest and change it from being a SE-judged contest to a community-judged contest, which could be organized without SE getting involved.

If you take out the stats or the implementation of the gear, then it is just another fanart contest, with different themes. I don't think anyone would mind that. I didn't see anyone oppose the suggestions of fanfiction contests (again, community rep judges and not the devs) or creating designs for no-stat event gear. The devs would still need to get involved via creating the armor/weapons, but the winner could be selected by the community team purely based on aesthetics, rather than game balance. For this thread, it is the suggestion of implementing of player-suggested gear with stats that people oppose.
----------------------
Thanks for the feedback ^^


This is not a "Suggestion forum," it is "General Discussion" forum in the "COMMUNITY" section which means that anything you put here is open to discussion, and is not a direct line to the devs. The dev team doesn't even read all these threads; the community reps do that, and they might pass good ideas to the devs. People responding to threads saying that ideas are bad because they can see that it is unbalanced, or they think it is a waste of time, or they plain don't want the developers to look at something they won't enjoy. People have differing opinions on suggestions, and any positive or negative feedback is an attempt to convince the reps as to whether or not the idea is good or bad, or just a fun idea that, while entertaining to discuss, really shouldn't be added.
--------------
Well, when the community team wants feedback and suggestions they prompt us to post in the correct place in terms of giving suggestions and feedback based on the content. If I'm not mistaken, General Discussion is the place for general suggestions about the game as a whole right?


The "thanks for listening devs" at the end of all your suggestions implies that you think that the devs read all your posts; while this is a mistake on your part in how these forums work, it is easily misread as arrogance in assuming that all your suggestions get passed to the devs.
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Ughh, how things like this get misread to this degree kills me >< I'm simply thanking the Devs should the post get passed to them. I not posting my suggesting to the community team to approve, but rather the Dev team, so I thank the Dev team for the opportunity to hear my concept if it does reach their eyes and ears. That's really all there is to that. It's like signing at the bottom of a letter and addressing the person you're sending it to. No arrogance intended at all.


As to your current sig, Ifrit in FFXI has a short snout, the omission of which makes the face look distorted. I personally do not like the image--just my opinion, and the reason why I think so.
------------
Understandable. I think I was working from a screenshot on that one, but it's understandable.



Not quite; it is fine to reply to everyone, but try to multiquote, rather than making a new post for each reply. You have up to 10,000 characters per post. There are many people on this forum guilty of that, and it is a peeve of many other people, as it is often seen as trying to pad the post count.
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I try to when it's only a few lines, but if it's paragraphs, it gets bloated real fast lol.



Nah, the pictures going with the ideas are fine, since they have to be links on these forums.

[kingfury]

@ KF

It's all about perception. What you might see as a formality could be easily misinterpreted as something else. I'm just giving you insight on how certain things you do are viewed, and suggesting ways you could certain things so that you aren't viewed in that light. I'm in no way telling you, you HAVE to conform to this or that.
---------------
Yeah I know man, but there's other factors at work too lol. Ones that no one wants to admit in a post, but they're there. My biggest defense is, and will always be communication. If anyone wants to clarify anything about me, just ask instead of assuming something.

Like I said, I except your advice that clearly will benefit me in future post like not responding to every single person lol and knowing when to close a thread ><. In any case, as always, I thank you for trying to add a positive tone to the thread man. /

[Minsc]

----------------------
Well, when the community team wants feedback and suggestions they prompt us to post in the correct place in terms of giving suggestions and feedback based on the content. If I'm not mistaken, General Discussion is the place for general suggestions about the game as a whole right?

From the POL Home Page...

Service and Support > Contact > Suggestions and Feedback

or use the link below...

https://support.na.square-enix.com/form.php?id=20&la=1&p=0&fo=41

[kingfury]

In terms of actually getting a response or feedback from the Devs based on your suggestions Minsc is what I meant. You get nada using that method.

On these boards, I'm asking if General Discussion is in fact the correct place to post suggestions to the Devs regarding the game as a whole.

[Minsc]

And posting here has been working worlds better? ^^

[kingfury]

Oh yeah, some responses is better than none. lol

[BorkBorkBork]

King,

Please try to realize that part of a discussion is sometimes being told that your idea is a bad idea. There's always going to be people that flame for the sake of flaming but again like most of your threads lately you can't seem to grasp the concept of maybe all your ideas aren't great and when people tell you so you start circling the anti flamer wagons. You then fall back on the defense of well if you haven't started a thread I won't validate your argument. It makes you come off with the attitude of it's only a discussion if you will agree with me at the end. Nobody is saying you not entitled to your opinion and or ability to post suggestions, but people are also entitled to respond how they seem fit.

I tried explaining this to another lunatic on these forums, ahem starcade, but try to realize a few things. One it's the internet grow some thicker skin and maybe try not to respond to every post. Two again it's the internet once you post it's open to scrutiny and if you can't handle people poking fun at it and or responding in what you might see as a rude way don't post.

Also if your ideas are only for the dev team do everyone a favor and create and close the thread or go the the pol page and send in your suggestion from there.

Loosen up dude if you post something that's genuinely a good idea people will respond positively to it. If it's not a great idea people will tell you why and maybe it time to move on with the next new idea.

[kingfury]

@ BorkBorkBork:

This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about where it's hard not to correct such things lol >< I'm trying to, but dang man it's hard to not respond when the things you've said gets distorted so.

How did you interpret me saying that "I have no problem whatsoever discussing opposing opinions done in a respectable manner in regards to my suggestions" as "It makes you come off with the attitude of it's only a discussion if you will agree with me at the end."? When have I ever bashed anyone for simply not agreeing with me Bork? Never, not once. If you disagree and provide a discussion that intel's you reason why you disagree, I'll respond accordingly if i agree or disagree with your reasons. I'll NEVER down someone because they don't agree with a suggestion I've posted Bork. EVER.

The same twisting that Kimble did with that line >< I said that my suggestions are to the Devs, and I'm not looking for anyone else's approval. ALL other feedback is welcome so long as it's not flame post attempting to tear down a suggestion just for the sport of it. Again, and again I've said I don't mind discussing anything with folks that actually want to discuss things lol. "Of all the idiots, in all the idiot villages, in all the idiot worlds, you stand alone, my friend." does not fall under respectfully attempting to hold a discussion does it? Nah, that's flaming just because they want to.

I'm not shaken or affected by what such posters are so willing to toss up at me personally, but I'm not shy when it comes to correcting wrong things either. I know why I'm posting the suggestions and I plan on continuing Bork.

[kingfury]

Whoa whoa whoa... How then do you know that I'm not a comedian in real life, or a big movie/TV buff? I've used a couple quotes to "illustrate my thoughts" and you found fault with it. LMAO!!!
-----------
Oh c'mon Minsc, gimmie a break man! >< My illustrations don't call people "Idiots" like your nice quotes do. Find better sources for your quotes that don't belittle folks and you can post'em to my threads all day. lol

[Kimble]

That, or maybe you could grow a sense of humor.

[kingfury]

You better grow an original suggestion Kimble lol I'm not gonna drop that challenge for you till you do. ^^

See, that's funny! :D

[BorkBorkBork]

lmao king

I wasn't trying to bash you but you seem to not understand why all of your threads end up this way and your response is proof of that. It's internet dude try taking things with a grain of salt and stop taking everything so personal. If you can't handle criticism and flaming don't open yourself up to it.

As for your accusations of me twisting your words... lol there seems to be 15 pages of people that think the same thing. I personally don't care about you as I don't know you and you have nothing to do with my real life. I responded as to why I thought this was a terrible idea you disagreed I moved on because to me there was no point in discussing it further. Call it agreeing to disagree.

I've tried to point out to you previously how you come off but the only thing you can say is basically your twisting my words people don't understand bla bla bla. Seriously take a step back for a second and take a deep breathe. Whether what you say are your intentions or not its how your seen is the problem. You really ought to try to exercise some restraint and not defend yourself against every single post that someone puts on your thread. People in general don't care if you get upset about it on a personal level but you only feed the flames by responding to everything.

Post your stuff, do your drawings and again if its a good idea people will respond accordingly. If you go off like a maniac defending every single post you might as well sit down and loosen up your fingers for 15 pages of pointless circular conversation.

I'm going to do what you should do with most your threads is walk away and let the flames die down.

On a side note king when you make a thread it becomes everyone's thread.... might be part of the problem.

[kingfury]

throw in some player made equip and this is most epic idea ever, but beware most the gear will be pup gear cuz lets face it SE is clueless on pup gear lol.
-----------------
Agreed. Thanks for the feedback. /

Poor PUP :(

[Minsc]

@ BorkBorkBork:

This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about where it's hard not to correct such things lol >< I'm trying to, but dang man it's hard to not respond when the things you've said gets distorted so.

Again, say what you mean, leave nothing to interpretation.



How did you interpret me saying that "I have no problem whatsoever discussing opposing opinions done in a respectable manner in regards to my suggestions" as "It makes you come off with the attitude of it's only a discussion if you will agree with me at the end."?

Once again, you post an idea, then get all upset when some people don't like it. You then proceed to go on a 12 page rant about how you can post what you like, but others can't. You have this mindset of, "Respond in the manner I want you to respond or don't respond at all". That's where people get an attitude from you. "If you don't have something nice to say, don't say it at all" doesn't exactly fit in a free forum where you are welcoming feedback.



When have I ever bashed anyone for simply not agreeing with me Bork? Never, not once.



Nazi-like. Immature. 3rd Grade Logic. Crab-like

I'm sure I could find a couple more if I dug deep enough.




If you disagree and provide a discussion that intel's you reason why you disagree, I'll respond accordingly if i agree or disagree with your reasons.

But that's just it, you don't always do this. You tend to disagree with one of the following...

The DEVs can do anything if they can imagine it.

It can be done if you're creative.

Well thats for the DEVs to decide!

Nah you're wrong, with advances in technology it CAN be done.



I'll NEVER down someone because they don't agree with a suggestion I've posted Bork. EVER.



Nazi-like. Immature. 3rd Grade Logic. Crab-like



The same twisting that Kimble did with that line >< I said that my suggestions are to the Devs, and I'm not looking for anyone else's approval. ALL other feedback is welcome so long as it's not flame post attempting to tear down a suggestion just for the sport of it.

And now we come back to that same mindset of, "Respond in the manner I want you to respond or don't respond at all".



Again, and again I've said I don't mind discussing anything with folks that actually want to discuss things lol. "Of all the idiots, in all the idiot villages, in all the idiot worlds, you stand alone, my friend." does not fall under respectfully attempting to hold a discussion does it? Nah, that's flaming just because they want to.

But but but but...



It's not about being "proud" at all, as much as it's about me being an actual illustrator in real life. That's my profession, and how I help explain my thoughts. Anyone could do the same by using photos and other types of visual aids if they choose. I only add illustrations where I feel their helpful and the fact that they're super lose and sketchy is proof that I'm not trying to show off at all. Their simply sketches to help "illustrate" my thoughts.

I'm just using a couple quotes to "illustrate my thoughts".



I'm not shaken or affected by what such posters are so willing to toss up at me personally, but I'm not shy when it comes to correcting wrong things either. I know why I'm posting the suggestions and I plan on continuing Bork.

Awesome! As I've always said, keeping them ideas coming!

[Kimble]

Check the thread because I already gave you an idea pages ago.

[kingfury]

@ Bork:

I never said you bashed me Bork lol, and allowing folks to freely misenterpret what you say is of course any individuals choice. I choose to address it if I feel I can correct the misunderstanding when ever I can. This is such a case. You're at least trying to have a conversation which is why I'm even taking the time to show you that respect back. You didn't have to post at all in my thread, but since you did, I'm responding.

It's a strange concept to me to let folks say whatever they want to say about you and you have to the same power to use to correct those sayings. The 15 pages of folks thinking the same thing is truly unfortunate, but it's not because I'm changing my stance on matter of addressing people that address me. It's not so much about caring about that person as it's about showing common courtesy.

lol I'm not going off like a manic at all lol. At least not yet! ^^ I blame text communication for much of the misconceptions that happen throughout these threads since I can't convey on every level my tone, sense of humor, and manner of which I'm communicating.

Simply put, if I say something, and you interpret it the wrong way and try to toss it back at me in a negative way, then yeah, I'll try to correct that. I'm not hard to talk to, but that kind of thing can get frustrating after a while.

Thanks for the advice Bork.

[kingfury]

oh man, stop it Minsc >< that's just terrible to read through! Just type it out in a paragraph or something dude please. I can respond to a paragraph. I don't even dare to respond to all that. lol

[Kimble]

Makes it easier than reading a wall of text.

[kingfury]

Check the thread because I already gave you an idea pages ago.
You know what I mean ^^ I said an "Original" one. Like something you specifically care about.

[Minsc]

oh man, stop it Minsc >< that's just terrible to read through! Just type it out in a paragraph or something dude please. I can respond to a paragraph. I don't even dare to respond to all that. lol

"Respond in the manner I want you to respond or don't respond at all".

[kingfury]

Makes it easier than reading a wall of text.
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Just makes it long and drawn out to me >,< gimmie those short walls of text please lol

[kingfury]

"Respond in the manner I want you to respond or don't respond at all".
------------
lol >< nah, in this case just respond in a manner that doesn't fill up an entire page. I can understand your thoughts just fine in a standard paragraph format.

[Leonlionheart]

The player base is much better at pointing out problems rather than creating new fresh ideas...

Kingfury proves my point.

[Kimble]

You know what I mean ^^ I said an "Original" one. Like something you specifically care about.

Really? So coming up with the idea to instead make an art design contest for an in game piece of gear with no stats isnt an original idea?

[TybudX]

"Many of the above posters" that choose to flame others suggestions have zero ideas posted to even compare what they believe is a "non-stupid" idea so their opinions hold little value when they choose to tear down someone else's with things like, "this is a bad idea" or "this is a stupid idea".


I except your advice that clearly will benefit me in future post


You better grow an original suggestion Kimble lol I'm not gonna drop that challenge for you till you do. ^^


You know what I mean ^^ I said an "Original" one. Like something you specifically care about.

Kind of hard to have a mature and respectful discussion when there's nothing open to discussion. It's agree, or don't post, you must be a 'flamer' for disagreeing.

[kingfury]

I'll rap this thread up now at this point.

To all that care to know it, I won't stop suggesting new ideas since I truly do love playing FFXI. There's a lot of things I've wanted to suggest over the course of 8 years and I'm enjoying the opportunity to do so. I'm not asking that anyone like or support any of my ideas, and all constructive feedback is forever welcome to any of my threads. I'll continue to do my best to avoid letting frivolous back and forth matches populate the majority of my threads as best I can. To all that gave their constructive opinions and voiced them respectfully, thanks for posting. /

I'll continue to express myself through whatever forum and profile tools I have at my disposal here as a means to exercise my option to do so and my for my own personal enjoyment. Everyone on these boards has a right to express themselves through the very same tools as often as they should choose to do so. Have fun with it I say.

Peace. /

[Myrrh]

So, I skipped the last few pages as the back and forth seems to have been the same

"NO, you're wrong. You can't tell me my ideas are bad till you post your own ideas, you're a flaming troll"
"Kingfury, your ideas aren't that good and I can respond how I want"


Did I get the jist of it?