[dev1022] Auto-attack system questions and discussion

[Betelgeuzah]

I made this thread to probably, maybe, perhaps get some answers from the developers and/or community representatives regarding this upcoming feature, if not immediately, sometime in the future. Discussion is also welcome obviously.

The one question I have is: How do the developers think implementing this feature will benefit the game? In other words, what good would it do to the game to have this feature replace(?) the stamina gauge and manual attack input?

I have two possible scenarios to explain the developers' intent for having this feature (my knowledge is limited however):

1) The players feel that spamming attacks is an issue with the combat system, therefore the auto-attack feature is being planned to address that. However, it makes me wonder why the developers think that making the gameplay less involving would benefit it in the long run? I have seen more than few times that the players feel that they can not communicate well enough with such a 'fast' combat system. Wouldn't it be better to implement other ways to communicate (such as voice chat) instead of making the gameplay less involving instead? Do you think that the huge majority of potential players will approve of this kind of method to increase the communication in-game, when superior alternatives already exist?

2) The development team feels that going towards gameplay more familiar to the majority of MMORPG players would benefit the game. This basically means that basic attacks are automatic while 'spamming' special attacks with their own cooldowns becomes the norm. However, can you say that this is objectively a beneficial change for the game as a whole, taking into account just how massive of a change we are talking about in the end? Will this change make the game better than, say, improving on and polishing the existing stamina gauge and manual input mechanics? More importantly, as the servers are in Japan there will always be more input lag than in other MMORPG's with region-based servers, making our version of the combat system worse from the get-go.

In the end what we need is a polished system that works, but I would like to hear what the people at SE as well as the players have to say about this feature and it's potential beneficial effects for the game. Lastly, I want to say that I initially did not agree with the decision to bring back the 'classic' classes but as I heard from the Producer Yoshida himself how the feature will be implemented, I agreed with his plans. I hope to see the same happen here. If the developers have plans to make the combat system more involving in other ways, then obviously I would agree with the change.

EDIT: I have added most of the (reasonable) arguments for and against this feature below:

For:
1. The current gameplay is not tailored for gamepads, and thus it is harder to efficiently play the game as you need to always go back to the basic attack on the Action Bar. Auto-Attack would help with this as you no longer would have to move your cursor back to the basic attack on the list.

2. Implementing Auto-Attack would help with the lag that is present in the current game.

3. It would be easier to communicate with other players using the text function as the game would require less button input from you.

4. It would only automate the battles only slightly (making them less involving) but the various benefits make it worth it.

5. S-E would have an easier time to control the gameplay with a consistent source of attacks(?).

6. You wouldn't have to spam basic attacks for the majority of gameplay any more, and could instead focus on performing special skills.

Against (based on the above list):
1. With proper UI adjustments, the gameplay can be tailored with gamepads in mind. These adjustments include but are not limited to: Turning the Action Bar into a grid, making it easier to scroll to a skill of your choice at any given time (analog pad can be used with this). In addition, the basic attack would be assigned it's own button in the gamepad. These changes would prove to be an effective solution to the problem presented above, and arguably even with an Auto-Attack feature this change would be beneficial.

2. Lag can be dealt with in other ways, such as actually improving the server hardware and code. Further, there are people who do not consider the implementation of Auto-Attack (from hereon known as AA) an acceptable solution for the problem, for reasons stated later in the list.

3. Better solutions, such as voice chat, exist and can be rather easily implemented to deal with the issue of communication. Voice chat has various advantages over traditional text based forms of communication, such as ability to express yourself faster by speaking rather than typing, having a wider variety of tools to express yourself (as text is very one-dimensional), and while communicating with for example auto-translate is better done with a text based communication method, it does not require as much attention as the system has been made very efficient to use (for example to make long sentences you need to only type few letters and press Tab to get your point across).

4. The solution should not involve automating the battle in any form because it makes the gameplay less involving and thus is not an acceptable solution as long as the game is not too involving as-is. Since there are games (for PC and consoles) that are quite a bit more involving this game should not have it be simplified. Other MMO players, especially those with a PC, will not accept that the gameplay of this MMO has been "simplified" for the console audience, and will see this game as being "inferior" to them in that regard.

5. This is true. Whether it is acceptable that S-E needs to do this for the sake of being able to control their game is another question altogether.

6. This is more of a problem with the fact that the encounters in this game are not challenging enough and do not require you to use more than few basic skills. By implementing AA this fact does not change, if anything you would simply use more skills only because you have nothing else to do. Solving the monster difficulty issue also takes care of the "spamming" issue. Not to mention the class changes, as it is clear that skills are not situational enough.

[Cesaru]

I definitely find that spamming attacks gets rather boring after a while...it was interesting at the start but later on it gets dull. It might be ok if there were more useful weapon skills or skills in general that may or may not use tp to break up the monotony.

For example on my lancer 60% of the time I am using the normal attack, 30% a weapon skill and 10% some sort of buff/debuff. If they made the normal attack auto then that frees up a lot of time to chat or whatever but then without some more skills that fill out the time frame battle will seem a bit more dull. I just will not know what to do with the extra time after a while but I guess that is why the battle system is being re-hauled.

[Medura]

What wiuld be the best would being avble to toggle auto on and off. I want to be able to talk OR use skills, but cant do both at once, so toggle normal auto-attack

[Nephera]

Auto attack just feels like the game is doing the spamming for me.

[DoctorMog]

Auto attack ruins the other "attacks" each class gets that you purchase with marks. If they add auto attack I hope they don't do away with the flexibility of things like close shot, heavy shot, far shot, heavy slash, heavy swing etc...

A lot of people don't know they exist, and they think all they have for options is "light attack" which isn't the case. If people started using the other optional "standard attacks" you can purchase with marks, they wouldn't be asking for auto attack.

They are attacks that come at a stamina cost greater than "light swing" but have additional effects like generating more TP for the player, reducing the monsters TP each swing, increasing enmity and hitting multiple targets.

These are "standard attacks" that are not TP moves, so if used correctly should make most of the rants about "all I do is push 1 button anyway" moot.

Go buy your class skills, and start using them.

[Nephera]

Auto attack ruins the other "attacks" each class gets that you purchase with marks. If they add auto attack I hope they don't do away with the flexibility of things like close shot, heavy shot, far shot, heavy slash, heavy swing etc...

A lot of people don't know they exist, and they think all they have for options is "light attack" which isn't the case. If people started using the other optional "standard attacks" you can purchase with marks, they wouldn't be asking for auto attack.

They are attacks that come at a stamina cost greater than "light swing" but have additional effects like generating more TP for the player, reducing the monsters TP each swing, increasing enmity and hitting multiple targets.

These are "standard attacks" that are not TP moves, so if used correctly should make most of the rants about "all I do is push 1 button anyway" moot.

Go buy your class skills, and start using them.

I agree with this, but 6k guild marks can be hard to get. Especially if you keep missing the day they're offering leves for your class.

[MaxWinter]

Well i hope weapon skills come back from ff11 the curent feel of combat is all over the place , im not sure if auto attack is a good idea or not.
Also i wonder if the upper limit of damage could be more than ff11 where you only did a few hundred points of damage , instead why not make tougher monsters and make the damage(magic and physical dmg) go into thousands.

It would make it feel like you gained something rather than staying in same place.

[Betelgeuzah]

I definitely find that spamming attacks gets rather boring after a while...it was interesting at the start but later on it gets dull. It might be ok if there were more useful weapon skills or skills in general that may or may not use tp to break up the monotony.

Well, yes, I don't want to imply that I think the system is perfect as-is. I'd like to, instead, discuss what the developers think about improving the existing system and why implementing a different [auto-attack] system would benefit the game more. Surely, the combat needs work and polish no matter what they decide to do.

A good point was brought up above, which is that the system would lose some of it's potential depth (which does not really work in practice yet) as there are many types of basic attacks in the game. They would need to make us be able to toggle between these basic attack types if they want to implement auto-attack without taking away from the depth of the game itself.

What wiuld be the best would being avble to toggle auto on and off. I want to be able to talk OR use skills, but cant do both at once, so toggle normal auto-attack

I could see how this would benefit the game, as long as it works on the side of the existing system and complements it. The implementation has to be spot-on for it to not be deemed useless however. Good post nonetheless.

[Sephr]

The system needs a rework (as it's getting). Applying auto-attack to the current system doesn't work because the majority of the time you're spamming one attack. Applying it to a system where you use a multitude of different spells and abilities makes far more sense.

We'll have to wait and see what happens with the battle system changes.

[Malakhim]

If they were to add an auto-attack feature, I would hope that they take enough consideration into making it optional as well as relevant to the FFXIV experience. In an MMO space where EVERYONE is using auto-attack, which as another poster mentioned is essentially just letting the game spam for you, how are you supposed to have any sort of product differentiation? Besides, there is a sizable amount of people who do appreciate the much more active nature of combat.