Battle Regimen Alternative

[Shurrikhan]

Originally meant as a reply to the recent Battle Formations thread, but got overly long-winded. (It's amazing how length escapes me in that tiny quick-reply box that's so rarely quick.) This uses some basic theory work I've been messing around with on a blog, but hopefully will be concise and practical enough in its implementation here.

I'd actually like to use this thread primarily for amendments and solid feedback. I'll be making a second thread via the general forum for general comments.
* http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...tive-Secondary *

I think some additional work could be doable within unique job effects outside of their abilities, but I think that's actually a broad extent of a 'stats' issue more than Battle Regimen. Well, with that long ado...
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Given fulfilling combat system revisions, formations can work themselves out through primarily two things: interception and ability linking. In other words, if you have a broad cone attack and your tank(s) can actually soak up or misdirect the damage within or from those angles to keep it from passing behind him, then the positioning decisions are obvious. If you want friendly fire flame-baked goblins, have your AoE tank move in between two shieldies aiming the flames between them and dodge to the side at the last second. If you just want to stay alive yourself, move behind the tanks. If you have a Samurai skilled in blocking incoming arrows and has complete threat on AoE-less melee trash, go ahead and fight near the mages who are being shot at, within the line enemy line of attack. There, interception.

Ability linking requires more drastic but no more greatly fundamental change, and presumes a few other sets of changes to be truly handy. For one, weapon type differences matter. Shocking. Two: elemental mass and mixing. Three: likely shocking itself, essentially interruption through sheer burst damage. Without the first, melee composition is pointless. Without the second, casters are handicapped and composition is largely pointless. Without the third, targeting patterns based on this coordination are fettered and fun but risky attack schemes then become simply impossible.

Okay... so, some basic examples of ability mixing. Well, first some technical details. The best way to do pull this off would likely be threefold--target-led, support-led, system-led. In short, offensive by actually targeting the enemy and matching, if that's even necessary, incoming party abilities, offensive by attaching abilities directly to a teammate or self, and targeting a zone with preexisting activity (such as an Aerora in order to play a Firaga off it, or match it with Fleetfoot for dodge counter-attacks, etc, etc).

Additionally it requires a slight control scheme addition, essentially optional queuing. In a way this makes combos in and of itself, well, the self-contained strings of abilities we had before. Furthermore it gives visibility of which spells will be used before and during the attack sequence. It also makes various other additions possible--mixing one's own abilities in terms of elemental mixture or simultaneous attacks (limited in quite a few cases based on obvious physical restraints).

Normally I'd do this with the Space bar, but we have jump. In that case, I'd normally make jump a reasonable part of combat...but...there's that. Barring the use of space bar, I'd simply cause queues to be formed when an attack cannot be made, i.e. out of melee range. If we get any Archer abilities back that take stance rather than 360 jump-spins, they can also be formed during the cast time or until stationary. Casters could prepare future casts while already casting or moving between casts. Etc.

This may mean that a whole one ability would have to go off before queuing could start. I don't mind that. We shouldn't need to start each fight with a 10-man cannon blast. These mixes generally affect utility far more than sheer power. There is no 'utility' in the first shot of combat. I find 'unmatched' abilities just as valuable. Matched usage is not keenly necessary. It's the coordination of attacks and/or defenses that matters, and that *can* be done without actually combining abilities one bit. However, many of the actual mixes will need to be Active, so we'll need a button for that. End of technical details.

The broad sense of all this mixing is a bit much to describe here, so let me just give examples specific to my three points--both sets.

Weapon Typing & Direct Selection

- You have a giant rock golem strong by percentage to all but blunt weapons, but with a heavy flat bonus vs. blunt that normally equals this out. But now you're attacking it with Aura Pulse (complete with jumping, mind you) while Thundara is being used. Thundara combines with your attack by hitting more or less simultaneously, resulting in a thunderclap strong enough to shatter some of its armor near its head. Go future incap possibilities!

Weapon Typing and Support Selection:

I, a Monk (I like Monks) use Howling Fist through an attacking Lancer, sending the attack down his Doomlance/Skewer equivalent. Hits lots of creeps. The magic changes its backing weapon type, a small amount of magic is lost in transfer, and the total damage it causes has been about doubled or tripled. Honestly, pairing it with Impulse Drive is more fun, even if not as obvious a choice...

Melee fighters in System Selection

I, a Monk (I really love Monks) am using using Fleetfoot while broadly intercepting close-range attacks for a fellow Lancer while he intercepts long-range attacks from a more particular couple enemies. As my specials for the ability proc, he adds a Leg Sweep in 360 degrees upon the momentum. (Momentum is a calculable force. But here lets say it's a multiple of 2 radians to the AoE effect span. It's momentum 'effect' is the Leg Sweep damage source times that bonus.) I then Dragon Kick atop that, momentum still going. But by then we are out of spinning AoEs. This 'momentum' is the System in that area.

Elemental Mixing and System Selection:

To be honest, "mixing" isn't quite the right word. It's more like sequencing. You wet a target, you zap the target. Zapping the target normally gives off heat and something along the lines of static. Burn a target and gets burns, which allows for additional damage based on pain, and gets hot. Put water on something hot and you've got steam, useful for broiling and defensive cover. Air will move faster from hot targets, and more heavily move towards cold targets. Burning and freezing targets both take less damage over time as the effects degenerate and body heat returns towards normal. Maximum heat (or least heat in the case of freezing) is a factor of its own. Earth has mass. It can be used to weigh down enemies. Mud pits can be made to slow enemies with the addition of water. They can get further stuck when ice is then added atop that.

There are approximately 6 factors to make this work if any of the original (astral/umbral) Thaumaturge spells make a return, fewer if not. The factors are potentially highly cumulative and work hand-in-hand with blunt/piercing/slashing aggregate effects in breaking down a boss's defenses. The factors sourcing this concept are probably the largest implicator of long-term fight strategy aside from the boss's own attack patterns.

Now a crucial note: interactions vary slightly between the different selections by which the abilities may be used. You may set them to 'auto-fit' so to speak to what seems best, or leave them to how they're actually selected.

These differences, while minor, are not 'small bonuses'. They each lend themselves to a different goal. For instance, if that Featherfoot-->Leg Sweep-->Dragon Kick combo had been used offensively instead, it wouldn't have served to AoE all surrounding enemies so much as topple one in particular. Used supportingly, it would have depended on the actions I was supporting.

Switching between systems: Tab reform.

1. Systems can be considered as targets. Player targets may be minimalized to those relevant to you. (Fellow offensive casters, players directly nearest you, players in trouble, whatever it may be. You can script the parameters yourself.)
2. ~ is the default key to swap targeting settings. Target settings are far more customizable than before.
3. That includes a default scheme for Attacker/Support/Opportunist (to be renamed) schemes, which work with a focus primarily on the roles associated with the different selection methods and modify the 'auto-fit' mentioned above.

Simulation example: I'm a back-line offensive caster, Conjurer.

The cast bars and targets of my fellow offensive casters are currently in the center of my screen, just above my actionbars. Without an enemy selected, pressing tab simply swaps between those casters. I notice a teammate starting to cast Fira on a Quirrin Village Chief, so I match him with a quick Aerora. In this case this creates a fear buff that lasts a short time until the flames are dispelled. My Aerora will cause the flame to go off, even if with little extra damage, a few more immediate clicks to increase the chances of their being affected. From there I tab twice to the still-targeted Quirrin Village Chief and then to the Aerora and start spamming it with Aero to keep it going.

It'll fade soon regardless, but I still want to maximize the fear chance and refresh burns. Once it's faded, I'll tab from the faded Aerora (permanently inexistant once I stop targetting it) to the nearby Quirren, tab through to affected ones, and start duplicating their burn ticks with Aero (again, little bonus damage from the flame, but the tick counts with flame damage, so it has a chance to restart the fear effect). In my case, I simply hit ~ to go back to target-less, tabbing through fellow casters, once I'm done.

(For the record, my mob group only appears as the ones focused on by my teammates, and the main fight mobs, both in the left corner of my screen. When I actually switch to a system it shows me the enemies within its range over the center of my screen (above my fellow casters). The center-most when swapped is center-most, and fading is used to show this afterwards. When I switch to a mob group, the same is done, but fading is opposite to any debuffs I keep up. That's just my personal setup though. The last bits is tied to my ~ setup even.)

Alright, that's all I got.

[Shurrikhan]

Hey, there's a thumb up here... someone actually read all this... Masochists.

Actually, there's a 4th point I forgot to mention that Kurtz brought to mind again.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...rmations/page2

It's has a lot to do with Interception, but I only gave examples of intercepting attacks. Shifting threat by being in the way is also important, and being able to manipulate enemy positioning with your own, which really just has to do with faking some manner of collision boxes of variable range (based on fear, aggression, recklessness, etc) so that enemies aren't just running through a whole front line defense to stack themselves up haphazardly on the person with threat, be it the tank or gun-ho BLM. Their left/right/front/back positioning should also be important to them. Smart enemies should deal with manipulating players to get behind or the like as much as we do to them. (Stick the guy you really have to block in the front, and the little dps mobs all get behind, and the utility mobs try to bind your sword and shield from the side.)

[AmandaHuggenkiss]

The alternative is coming!

LIMIT BREAK!

[KurtzStrife]

Well, not sure if i understood the whole idea, but i definitly agree with the whole ability link/combo ability , it would be great if the ability link was directly conected to "battle formations" concept. Just one thing, isntead of queing abilities ( like we had on the battle regiment systems (( and dind't work very well )) , why not use de already implemented "flashing combo icons" . For example player 1 starts the WS, second player will now have a flashing icon on the bar infoming him that he can now perform a combo with an ally ( repeat for next memebers ) what do you think?

[Shurrikhan]

The alternative is coming!

LIMIT BREAK!

I was actually hoping that the Limit Break system would feed off a mixture of this and reforms to stat presentation, the little issue I mentioned in the 5th sentence. They are not mutual exclusives. Rather, limit break is the obvious icing for this particular delicious (my opinion) cake.

[Shurrikhan]

Well, not sure if i understood the whole idea, but i definitly agree with the whole ability link/combo ability , it would be great if the ability link was directly conected to "battle formations" concept. Just one thing, isntead of queing abilities ( like we had on the battle regiment systems (( and dind't work very well )) , why not use de already implemented "flashing combo icons" . For example player 1 starts the WS, second player will now have a flashing icon on the bar infoming him that he can now perform a combo with an ally ( repeat for next memebers ) what do you think?

I'd say an option for large flashing icons will come regardless, either as the non-default setting or, hopefully, through mods, but I'd prefer to keep the combat appearance as clean as possible, if that makes sense. Basically, there should still be some appearance of modesty, and like you're actually doing these things at appropriate times by your own skill, not simply running to site A through D and hitting a flashy combo opportunity. Though I did use the term 'Battle Regimen', my reason for the whole entirely alternate system was because I found precisely that feel to seem beyond clunky.

If icons were a given, unless it'd just be far to hard on the fps, I'd simply ghost the animation (in a mostly deanimated form) from the source to target, with emphasis on the two ends, since you need to be able to see 'what's hitting' and 'who's hitting' often more importantly than 'through what path'. Again that's just common sense though, and matching a stylistic approach.

Your backline regen idea from before really comes to mind again. Back-line is so Final Fantasy, and it replicates both the very FF and often more realistic approach of get in, flurry, get out, when that strategy should be available.

Seeing various abilities ghosted in preparation for a melee charge, selecting which to match with while charging (mostly a matter of movement into alignment with the attack) and the whole thing springing into action as you get in there brings to mind images much like Amanda's GIF. Awesomeness.

[Shurrikhan]

Actually, let me say a bit on what I'd imagined of the Limit Break system to be, as, again, "the icing on this particular cake".

It actually has a lot to do with the difference between class and job, which is a pretty complex and even a bit of an abstract subject for me that ties in to way more than I could possibly explain (deleveling, Echo, and materia, to name some of the least obvious). But to summarize that position quickly:

Classes are pursuits of learning and of course weapon classes. Jobs are archetypes formed from certain connections, be it by some embedded understanding or simply the heroes who have used them with each subsequent eras, between those classes, personalities, one's life experiences, and a role they follow on the whole. (Follow, not pursue. Jobs are already there. It's like when you know who you are, what you're content with.)

[The following stuff in connecting motifal elements to a non-solid stat system is actually stuff I've only been working out on my blog. Given that I don't quite know the copywrite rules here, it feels a little awkward discussing it.]

As I said--abstract. But abstract is a fundamental component of Limit Break. We are exceeding our limits after all, our physical limits. Obviously, there's a non-physical gap being employed, and it's not from just mixing in magic.

I don't want to make it so impractical as to say it takes a bit of emotion being present, or that it builds and applies subtle motifs (that I don't yet no how to map), but in short I don't want it to be something thrown in for bonus damage or taken for granted.

Honestly, I'd like to see it in some low duration fights as well, such as an amazing variation on Steel Cyclone being launched by a warrior at 10% health in desperation, the entire party being overwhelmed. That in itself, that variation on an ability with the animation and effect both augmented, may be enough for a low-end Limit Break.

But, let's picture this warrior as a follower of Halone. Simultaneous with the Steel Cyclone a Conjurer makes an Aerora on its system, and a Summoner draws the limit break from it. The Aerora is includes a spinning whirl of 10 or so axes identical in appearance to the one the warrior is carrying. A true meat-grinder.

How prevalent the deities are to Limit Breaks remains to be seen. I haven't envisioned or simulated all this clearly yet. In this case I probably just figured the Warrior, who has a pretty broad spectrum of motifs as long as they're all hardy and destructive would vary the effects of a Limit Break drawn from a combo scheme he started in some accordance with deity. It's just a hunch, merely feeling out the subject.

Dang, I guess that's all I've got for now, a feel of it. ...By the way, I think certain weapons and armor come into play too, quite a bit. For example, a Coerl-shaped fist weapons or a lionhead shield relic would likely sort themselves into a category somewhere by two angles -- something fierce/bestial, and something majestic. A Howling Fist could turn into the winded shape of a lion head howling, providing a fear effect (not quite that simple, but that's the gist of the use), a Aegis Boon could turn into a lion devouring the flames coming at it.

To summarize the above rant: I think that limit breaks will be a product of the roles pushed within a given fight or continuous sets of fights, and shaped by influences carried by the players involved in the actions that activate them--jobs (or more broadly any quests that leave a difference, or personal adjustments or augmentations to one's class), deities, relics.

Let me just post that for now, since I've had this up for close to an hour without realizing since I switched to college work.

[Shougun]

Hookay.. So thanks to 'token expired' all of what I first wrote died.


I like the reactional gameplay, I doubt you are trying to suggest this but be-careful getting to -so- nuinanced gameplay that its impossible to learn naturally lol

Just wanted to build my own example of your system (make sure I got it and also to use it to talk):

Someone casts a whirlwind ability that effects Z movement spells for 2 seconds (leaving a soft gust effect, the "area effects" can be seen as a buff perhaps they can be placed in a special buff section called modifiers, some could be stackable like casting many whirlwinds at once). Anyway whirlwind, monster is of normal weight so he isn't lifted off the ground but the area is more sensitive to Z axis spells now, monk uses uppercut and instead of 4 feet in the air he goes 14. Extra damage on fall, however a dragoon uses jump and due to the scenario his jump is combo'd into impale, crashing the airborne target into the ground stunning him.


I'm imaging a hilarious combo where you are high in the mountains, mage pushes a monster off the cliff and then a dragoon uses impale, impaling the monster 200 feet.


An interesting thought I had on momentum was you use weight to calculate it (irl), so I thought it would be cool to see monsters behave differently like really large heavy monsters wouldnt be tossed in the air very high (or pushed/pulled much) - but spells like gravity would also have a lot more to work with.

An idea for the knocking opponents in the air, first I think there should be a resistance growth to uppercuts so you cant reapply them over and over in a short time (would look lame), and second when you launch a monster the monster will let you finish your combo before saying out of range - it will also stutter his ascent while being hit so if you have a 5 fold hit and someone knocks him into the air it will let you finish the combo and tell you he is out of range until he lands again (in this way parties are not like GOD DAMMIT MONK lol - also I dont think people should be able to jump up with the monster like Dragoon else I would have said just jump up to the monster like in FFXIII).

Some other quirk reactional ideas:

Gravity - if cast on self or allies it will not add the slow effect but still increases your calculated weight so monsters cant fling you high into the air, using jump will cancel gravity. If casted on a monster it will prevent them from being knocked up (and is slowed), but also if the monster is a flying monster it will ground him

Float - float over traps and ground only spells (like a boss that cause the floor to ooze lava), prevents fall damage from launching spells (but having less calculated weight you will be launch a bit higher), jumping cancels float.


For combos there should be a combo page that once discovered it fills it out for you, and you can toggle an option to show all possible combos your character can do currently with his skills, as well as what can be done in your party.

Edit: Accent -> Ascent.... >.<;

[Shurrikhan]

snip, above

Yes, exactly that. : )

In an earlier thread way back when I mentioned using actual differences in slow categories, essentially temporal (Slow/Stop) vs. weight (Gravity/Heavy) vs. pain (may have been another, but I forget). The reason for that at the time was almost exactly your first example. I also planned on WHMs being very handy for lightening mobs for their incoming launches, BLMs then increasing their weight just before they start coming back down, perhaps with a Monk following both casts in order to flip-kick smite him into the ground. That weight would then become an AoE effect. Fun.

I agree with the potential problem of gameplay becoming so nuanced that it becomes too challenging to simply play carelessly when you want to, I just don't think this system runs into that problem. Chaining aside, a large part of the system (though I didn't mention it explicitly here because it's not a part of the Battle Regimen alternative specifically) is the simple building of various values not previously used in combat, such as weight, heat, light (only if we're still using Astral/Umbral), saturation, etc, alongside armor type and its degradation, and so forth.

An Aerora-Uppercut combo doesn't launch people because it's a combo, it launches the guy because he got lighter, and our Monk is a beast in strength stat. The only difference in using a combo is now an Aero (no need for Aerora in this case) can be used to directly assist the lightening effect, sacrificing a bit of cutting force or whatnot to do so.

A large reason to be switching which values to focus down is because enemy's both grow resistant to them and/or get overrun by them. Because those are paradoxical, let me explain. Think of the first like a chain bonus, though in reverse. Enemies take more damage from things they aren't prepared for, value-wise (heat/cold, light/dark, w/e). Some mobs also detect additional threat from this bonus, larger than the damage bonus itself. All depends on the monster (more on this later). So, frost spells might eventually start dealing less damage in comparison to their base damage values than you started with. But at the same time, you've got the enemy in a state of permafrost by now, which has additional advantages (slowing AND perhaps weight depending on the water mass that has then been turned into ice on the guy), along with dps based on difference from body heat (i.o.w. enemies have a native heat point, so some tundra mobs might have to be cooled much more intensely to be harmed effectively by cooling). You don't want to lose that advantage by now. That dps bonus may be enough to actually make the damage higher than it was when at its highest bonus, it's just more about the chilling as a whole, rather than the separate additions.

By the way, the actual intensity of heating or chilling has to do with dps more than damage done overall. That's why these value-building strategies tend to burst and switch or else use regimented rotations. For example, I might soak a mob, ice it, building up mass and cold, keep building up and building up with water and frost, nuke the temperature to an all-time low while drying it a bit with wind abilities, then hit it with blunt attacks to shatter it, possibly one-shotting the mob or at least using him as the center for quite the AoE. None of this takes the combos. And hell it's just one of many tactical focuses--a highly elemental one. Keeping bursty and using a general or opportunistic outlook instead could be just about as deadly, and likely safer.

[For the record I can't read "stutter his accent" (second of the largest paragraphs) as being applied to anything but a humorous, French-mustached kobold king boss.]