Improving the Game Economically

[Roaran]

First off I would like to start by stating one thing; when we make changes to the game economy, we must keep in mind, this is a game designed to allow for players to enjoy themselves. That said, there is a lot of ways players can enjoy the economy, but a certain change or mechanic that is meant to be 'realistic' or 'immersive' should not be implemented if it is bothersome to the players.

I will provide a list of suggestions for people to glance over quickly if they choose to do so, and if you at first disagree with any proposition I will provide my reasoning as well. If you still disagree or would like to add some more, please do so.

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1. Link the Market Wards.

I myself have been against doing so; at least until significantly better means of transportation have been implemented. But after seeing the game progress, my position on this issue has changed. I believed at one point that if chocobos were widely used, and airship travel were possible, players would be able to travel between the markets easily and get the items they need. The option would even be available for players to earn gil by transporting items from one ward to another. However, it is my belief, even with all these modes of transport, the prices of these goods would need to be significantly higher to encourage players to keep moving them. Even then, it would require a great deal of movement to keep up with demand, and even then it is highly unlikely these players would be able to satisfy such diverse needs in most occasions. Thus, it is much more probable that players will continue to gravitate towards a singular city, at the expense of the others. While many players will think such a gravitation is a good thing; in fact in many cases it can be. However, I suggest the cons highly outweigh the pros. For one, new players are already being unnecessarily hindered whenever they choose to start their adventure from either Gridania or Limsa Lominsa. Secondly, players who wish to base themselves from these other two cities are also experience a similar hinderance. The most significant problem with this situation is, Square-Enix has developed 3 very large zones, each with their own unique aspects. It is unwise to prop up a system that arbitrarily focusses the population into one, at the cost of the others. Any overcrowding we experience could be lessened, and the desolace felt elsewhere alleviated.

We are planning on linking all three market wards together in 2.0! The reason behind not being able to link them earlier than that is due to the current system limitations.

2. Auction House versus Market Wards

Many players have been clamoring for an auction house, as, for them, the current market ward system is not as accessible or intuitive as others and it is a solution they are most familiar with. While many players want an Auction House, it is more likely they are looking for something different entirely. What a player needs is something that is simple and effective at doing a few things from both a buyers and sellers perspective. First, a seller wants to be able to quickly bring his/her items to the market and place them where their potential buyers will be able to access their goods. The faster this process is, and the less 'hoops' required the better. The very same could be said about buyers; their experience is generally better as the steps are reduced, but they must also be able to compare other prices just as quickly. Now many 'systems' can accomplish this, it would even be possible to have both, but we must operate within the bounds set before us. Moving foward, we can get the best results by seeking to improve the current system, as they lead to the most immediate results.

3. One stop shopping.

While the market economy is functional, it is not effecient. If we can identify the problems, the solutions will come. First, the most glaring problem, the need to run to each individual bazaar. It should be mentioned the solution I will mention here will at the same time remove the need to place retainers all together. By placing, in the place of separate Market Wards, a single Ward occupied by either several or a single NPC that is capable of meeting the needs of every adventurer. This NPC would be able to reference all retainers holding items in their bazaars and bring up this list for the buyer. In addition, this NPC would then be able to handle the transactions as well. The easiest implementation, would involve keeping the current Market Ward zone, filling it with several NPCs for the various Market Ward divisions. Thus no new artwork would be required. A future and more permanent solution would be a newly designed zone more suited to a single NPC.

4. Implement Retainer Reference System:

Outline of the Retainer Reference system here.
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Summary

To be brief, I have offered two real suggestions. First to link the market wards, and second to implement a simple solution to make transactions for buyers and sellers easier.

Very quickly I would outline the effects this would have on the game.

In order to sell an item, a player need only place an item in their retainer's bazaar. After doing so, the bazaar is then available for reference and anyone from any market can purchase the items within.

Buyers would then be able to move to a single point, accessed by a single NPC, to see this list of items and thier price. This NPC would be able to handle multiple transactions covering all items available by type.

Players, especially new players, would then more readily have access to goods from all over the world and can focus on playing in the zone they enjoy the most.

Edit: I forgot to add... I am reminded as it just happened in game. The frequent market crashes would likewise be a thing of the past. As the game moves foward and hopefully becomes more popular, the markets would continue to be assaulted by Retainers and the problem would become worse. Better to fix it permanently then having to continually readress this issue down the line.

[Xenor]

None of these suggestions are ways to improve the economy. They're suggestions to improve the buying process. To improve the economy you have to focus on what exists in the economy, not the means of trading it. So what does exist? Items and gil.

Gil! It's clear there is way too much of it in the economy when there's many people already close to or above 100 million gil only 7 months after the game was released. This gil needs removing from the economy otherwise people have the power to buy anything they want at any price. This will inevitably lead to massive inflation once worthwhile rare items are added. The average player won't be able to afford the 20-50 million asking prices.

To reduce this gil you need to do two things. Limit the flow of new gil into the system and increase the flow of gil going out of the system. Most of this new gil is coming from leves and NPCed crafted skill up items. Stop giving gil for all leves above rank 20 (allow new players to get some). Give shards instead. 50-100 shards are worth more than most leve rewards and if you want gil you can sell them. This does two things. It keeps shard prices low (they're currently back up to 300 on my server) and it stops new gil being created. If you get your gil from selling the shards it's the same gil that already exists. Also stop giving gil for all local leves, give marks instead for all of them but reduce the number to balance it. Lower the amount of gil obtained from items that are NPCed, or at least items that are commonly skilled up on such as rings and masks.

Items! There's too many of them. People can sit and spam and spam items forever until they pop out +1 +2 and +3 versions. This makes the NQ market worthless within a day of a new item being introduced and the +1 market becomes worthless shortly after. You've got to lower the amount of items that can be spammed. You've got to solve the item problem at the source.

Gathering is broke and anyone who suggests otherwise is a fool. I'm 41 MIN and 39 BTN and I can see full well what gathering is doing to the economy. There's too many items coming from it. Too many logs, too many branches, too much fruit and vegetables, too much silver, too much iron, too much gold, too many gems. These items need to be significantly reduced. The cap for every item should be set to 1 maximum gather per dig or chop. But that doesn't go far enough. Some of these items such as gold and gems are already set to that maximum. They need to be even rarer so that instead of getting 20 in an hour you only get 3 or 4. This all goes along to keep prices stable and items worth selling. When the raw materials are worth selling and have value people can't buy up stacks of them and sit and spam synths. NPCing NQs or selling them at rock bottom prices will hurt them badly. As a result there will be less items on the market so their values will stay high for longer.

Rarity of mats dropped from mobs is another issue. Why does that Dodore Doublet or Silver Tricorne still cost millions four and a half months after its introduction? It's because Dodore Wings and Uraeus skins don't drop from mobs like candy. Not a lot of them enter the economy each day because of the effort that goes into getting them. We need more materials that are as rare as these. Not necessarily drops from high rank NMs either. They can be materials obtained through faction leves, BCNM type events, even gathering nodes. Have some gathered items that are so rare that the average gatherer may only see 10 of them in his route from 1-50. When a finished item includes a material like this it can't be spammed. The NQs have value for a long time.

This is what will improve the game economically! Making items rare and have value. Not having the game fetch an item from a retainer for you. I don't disagree with your suggestions, they're good ones, but they won't improve the economy itself.

[Roaran]

None of these suggestions are ways to improve the economy.

As the title suggests, I want to improve the game through economic processes. The method by which players use to make their trades is involved in this process. I would hope the thread would stay focussed on improving the game, as any step to modify the economy must be taken with this in mind.

But, you do raise some points so I will try to address them.

Gil

I do not see large amounts of gil being a problem at all in the future as long as prices remain reasonable. So far, we have seen this continual influx of gil into the economy, yet in every case there is only a short period of time when the item is rare and prices are high. After more people are able to bring these items to market, prices drop dramatically. Competition is naturally driving these prices down. Now suppose prices do rise, the first conclusion someone may come to is new players will struggle. However, if there is a true inflation later in the game it is likely the items the low level players obtain would raise in value as well. This would mean a greater transfer of gil from more wealthier players into the hands of the new players. So while there may be slight disturbances, it is more likely they would be few and isolated. Any amount of serious disruption in prices would require other players not taking advantage of higher prices, which is unlikely, and many players willing to pay an arbitrarily higher prices, which is also unlikely.

Items

I thought this point made odd, as it seems contrary to your previous notion. You stated before you wished to stop inflation, yet turn around and suggest something that would cause price inflation. There is one point I would like to make; whenever your bring your goods to the market, the price is determined by many things but by one thing in particular. Price is determined by the time it takes you to acquire your items. Obviously other things impact the final price, if fewer people are at your stage of gathering you will be able to raise prices if demand is higher for example. By reducing the number of items gained in a period of time, you will most likely be able to charge more for your lesser # of goods. If you are over supplying a market, prices will fall and your items will lose value. The smart thing to do would be to shift to another mode of acquiring gil. But people who level crafts are willing to incur lesser gains, even costs, to level their class. This is also reflected in the lower prices. The point being is, while gatheres would not necessarily make much more gil, players ( ones who are most likely trying to level up a craft ) would be hindered. And this flies in the face of my first assertion in the original post.

Notorious Monster Drops

This is also a strange suggestion considering the past two you have made. You seek to raise the price of the goods you bring to market, yet you wish to lower the price of another?

The price of these items is determined by a few things. First, the difficulty of the monsters. The time it takes to hunt and get these items. And the price others are willing to pay for them. Just as all things, these prices will eventually drop. Once more players reach level 50 the demand will drop, as these players will most likely group up and kill them themselves. But this will never change the value placed on these items by some players. And they will always be willing to pay top dollar for them. I would just like to also point out, these items are intended to be rare.

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So I would just like to state again, this thread is about Improving the Game through the economy. The market wards are inexorably connected to the economy and have far reaching effects on how well the market functions. My suggestion to improve the market wards does have economic impacts, but the sole purpose of suggesting it is to improve the game itself.

[Shampooo]

None of these suggestions are ways to improve the economy. They're suggestions to improve the buying process. To improve the economy you have to focus on what exists in the economy, not the means of trading it. So what does exist? Items and gil.

Gil! It's clear there is way too much of it in the economy when there's many people already close to or above 100 million gil only 7 months after the game was released. This gil needs removing from the economy otherwise people have the power to buy anything they want at any price. This will inevitably lead to massive inflation once worthwhile rare items are added. The average player won't be able to afford the 20-50 million asking prices.

To reduce this gil you need to do two things. Limit the flow of new gil into the system and increase the flow of gil going out of the system. Most of this new gil is coming from leves and NPCed crafted skill up items. Stop giving gil for all leves above rank 20 (allow new players to get some). Give shards instead. 50-100 shards are worth more than most leve rewards and if you want gil you can sell them. This does two things. It keeps shard prices low (they're currently back up to 300 on my server) and it stops new gil being created. If you get your gil from selling the shards it's the same gil that already exists. Also stop giving gil for all local leves, give marks instead for all of them but reduce the number to balance it. Lower the amount of gil obtained from items that are NPCed, or at least items that are commonly skilled up on such as rings and masks.

Items! There's too many of them. People can sit and spam and spam items forever until they pop out +1 +2 and +3 versions. This makes the NQ market worthless within a day of a new item being introduced and the +1 market becomes worthless shortly after. You've got to lower the amount of items that can be spammed. You've got to solve the item problem at the source.

Gathering is broke and anyone who suggests otherwise is a fool. I'm 41 MIN and 39 BTN and I can see full well what gathering is doing to the economy. There's too many items coming from it. Too many logs, too many branches, too much fruit and vegetables, too much silver, too much iron, too much gold, too many gems. These items need to be significantly reduced. The cap for every item should be set to 1 maximum gather per dig or chop. But that doesn't go far enough. Some of these items such as gold and gems are already set to that maximum. They need to be even rarer so that instead of getting 20 in an hour you only get 3 or 4. This all goes along to keep prices stable and items worth selling. When the raw materials are worth selling and have value people can't buy up stacks of them and sit and spam synths. NPCing NQs or selling them at rock bottom prices will hurt them badly. As a result there will be less items on the market so their values will stay high for longer.

Rarity of mats dropped from mobs is another issue. Why does that Dodore Doublet or Silver Tricorne still cost millions four and a half months after its introduction? It's because Dodore Wings and Uraeus skins don't drop from mobs like candy. Not a lot of them enter the economy each day because of the effort that goes into getting them. We need more materials that are as rare as these. Not necessarily drops from high rank NMs either. They can be materials obtained through faction leves, BCNM type events, even gathering nodes. Have some gathered items that are so rare that the average gatherer may only see 10 of them in his route from 1-50. When a finished item includes a material like this it can't be spammed. The NQs have value for a long time.

This is what will improve the game economically! Making items rare and have value. Not having the game fetch an item from a retainer for you. I don't disagree with your suggestions, they're good ones, but they won't improve the economy itself.

maybe its because these people take the time to farm stuff to sell or take the time to skill up a craft and make stuff to sell... if there wasnt profit in making items to sell, no one woulda been a crafter and we would have people crying about there being no items to buy. Also the ones making all this money isnt the average player so they're the ones who should be able to buy the expensive +3 gear.

[Xenor]

So I would just like to state again, this thread is about Improving the Game through the economy. The market wards are inexorably connected to the economy and have far reaching effects on how well the market functions. My suggestion to improve the market wards does have economic impacts, but the sole purpose of suggesting it is to improve the game itself.

I don't know why you're stating the obvious. Of course improving the economy is going to improve the game.

Anyway you just don't appear to get it. My post was about preventing the massive deflation that is occurring for crafted items while preventing massive inflation of the super rare items. Super rare items being the equivalent of a Kraken club in XI. Gil is a problem, if five billionaires want an item and only one of them exists you can expect to pay hundreds of millions for it. Did you not learn anything from XI's economy in 2005? You're making the assumption that nothing in this game will be as rare as that.

maybe its because these people take the time to farm stuff to sell or take the time to skill up a craft and make stuff to sell... if there wasnt profit in making items to sell, no one woulda been a crafter and we would have people crying about there being no items to buy. Also the ones making all this money isnt the average player so they're the ones who should be able to buy the expensive +3 gear.

Your post doesn't make sense. I am one of these crafters you talk about, yet it's my idea to fix the economy in this way. I think most crafters who make a lot of gil would agree that items need more value and there's too much gil in the economy.

You got goldsmithing to 50 (kinda funny how similar our classes are haha), are you happy with your jewellery being worth 10-20k a piece? Or would you rather the gems be rare so that you could sell rings for 200k each? Does a high end ring that costs about 10k to make being worth 15k sound like a healthy economy to you?

Surely you can see the economy is broke. I might not have the best ideas for fixing it but some big changes need to be made and I can't see any flaws in what I propose.

[Roaran]

I don't know why you're stating the obvious. Of course improving the economy is going to improve the game.

You're misinterpreting me. The goal is not to improve the economy; mine is to improve the game. We could have a very advanced and dynamic economy with many different ascpetcs, yet we may end up destroying the game. Reconciling this point is important, as the economy is just one portion of the entire game.

You got goldsmithing to 50 (kinda funny how similar our classes are haha), are you happy with your jewellery being worth 10-20k a piece? Or would you rather the gems be rare so that you could sell rings for 200k each? Does a high end ring that costs about 10k to make being worth 15k sound like a healthy economy to you?

If the item your making costs only 10k to create, yet you are able to sell it for 15k; that is quite a substantial profit margin. The problem is your dealing in chump change. It is probably not worth your time to create these items, unless your trying to HQ them. I would just reiterate, prices are coming down quickly because you are competing with other crafters. They are either skilling up on rings and selling them for cheap just to get rid of them, or you are genuinely having other people craft them to make gil. If you want these items to cost more, then you would have to plant that cost in the creation of the item itself. You would need to pay more to create these items, and then you would have to pass this cost onto the buyer. In this process you still have no change in your profit margins as competition is likely the same as before. The only difference is you now have a higher costing item, and thus fewer potential buyers. You would only end up losing revenue, and you needlessly burden others who want this item.

As far as rare items go. They are rare because the developers deem them rare. You need not look further than supply and demand to determine why these items cost so much. The devs arbitrarily determine how many of said items they want in circulation over a certain period of time, and this determines the scarcity. Now, it goes without saying that when a player obtains one of these items, they will seek to maximize the amount of gil they can make. Whether its 900,000,000 gil or 4,000,000 gil it is irrelevant. Those who have the most gil will end up with these items regardless of any impositions we make into the economy.

Shampoo also made a very simple point that is correct; those that put in more time to the development of their character and their crafts/gathering will naturally acquire more gil. It is only natural that these players have an advantage when buying certain items.

But once again I would direct some attention to the title of this thread. Meddling with various mechanics of the economy have a great impact on the entire game. Making improvements in certain aspects may be detrimental to others. I would just advise others to keep in mind the economy must support the game, and there must be some basis in support of this whenever we decide to make changes to the economy.

[Jinko]

Agree with the OP.

First you need to make players want to use the Market System that is the most important thing to building a decent economy, the fact the majority of players NPC a lot of their farmed items is actually detrimental to the economy.

Secondly you need a system in place that normalises values, say a price history that shows the average price covering the last 3 days, the last week, the last month and the last 4 months, this way players can judge for themselves where to price their items.

Thirdly all the market wards should be linked, they should also allow you to port from one to another so that you don't need to travel the distance just to buy an item, or allow you to buy an item from the search counter regardless of where it is.

[Xenor]

If the item your making costs only 10k to create, yet you are able to sell it for 15k; that is quite a substantial profit margin. The problem is your dealing in chump change. It is probably not worth your time to create these items, unless your trying to HQ them. I would just reiterate, prices are coming down quickly because you are competing with other crafters. They are either skilling up on rings and selling them for cheap just to get rid of them, or you are genuinely having other people craft them to make gil. If you want these items to cost more, then you would have to plant that cost in the creation of the item itself. You would need to pay more to create these items, and then you would have to pass this cost onto the buyer. In this process you still have no change in your profit margins as competition is likely the same as before. The only difference is you now have a higher costing item, and thus fewer potential buyers. You would only end up losing revenue, and you needlessly burden others who want this item.

You're missing the point. Nothing in this game should cost only 10k to create. There should not be 50 raw gems for every player on your server. The supply is too high and that's why the prices are so low. I reiterate, prices are coming down quickly because the supply of materials is way higher than demand. This is basic economics. When supply is higher than demand prices fall. When supply is way higher than demand prices hit rock bottom. That's exactly what is happening. To stop this you have to get the supply balanced with the demand. To do this you make items rarer. This is the basis of a stable economy.

If your thread isn't about improving the game's economy then don't title the thread as such.

[Roaran]

You're missing the point. Nothing in this game should cost only 10k to create. There should not be 50 raw gems for every player on your server.

Please supply your reasoning on why this game should be as you describe.

If your thread isn't about improving the game's economy then don't title the thread as such.

Improving the game economically. <- thats the title; or in other words, Improving the game by adjusting economically related aspects of said game.

Anyways, I would invite others to join in on the original suggestions and original discussion as per the title.

[Amineri]

I think that both the OP (Roaran) and Xenor are making valid points, but looking at different aspects of the economy.

Replying first to the OP:

I agree that something does need to be done to address the concentration of the economy into a single city. Since essentially all servers are seeing this concentration into Ul'dah, it must be systemic in nature, rather than a random process -- otherwise, the chosen concentration point would be different on different servers.

I am concerned about your suggestion to link all of the market areas into one, however. Such a step, once done, cannot effectively be undone. I have seen many, many games that have been severely diminished by 'globalization' of the world.

As you point out, the purpose of a market is to bring buyers and sellers together. Player A has an item, but has little need for it, while Player B has need of the item and is willing to pay gil for it. The purpose of the market system is supposed to be to bring these two players together, so that exchange of gil and items can take place.

In what ways is this current system failing?

1) Only sellers are represented.
The current market system only lets searches (within one city) be performed on items being sold. Thus only the supply side of the economy is represented. Buyers, and the demand side, must play a passive role. Retainers have the option to seek items, yet this function is currently crippled by a host of problems (cannot search, takes two bazaar slots, must have item(s) wish to purchase, must purchase entire stack at once) that, if addressed, could provide sellers some guidance as to what buyers are willing to pay.

2) Bazaar space is limited
Given the rate at which items are obtained through combat drops, gathering, and crafting, and the sheer number of different items in the game, the 20 bazaar slots available through the two retainers means that there is significant opportunity cost in choosing to list one item instead of another. I'm certain that most people that are selling are taking advantage of character slots being currently free of charge to effectively obtain more bazaar selling space, which is a short term solution.

I'm not suggesting that more bazaar space simply be added (although that is an option), but that retainers be made to fulfill better the function that they are supposed to.

3) Retainers are not autonomous enough
In the very beginning, when you obtained your first retainer, you are told that the retainer is there to help you buy and sell, since you are an adventurer, not a shop-keeper. And yet, your retainer seems to need a lot of hand-holding. In so many ways....

Retainers can be summoned from across the world by the ringing of a bell, yet they cannot go, on your direction, to a particular ward, in a particular city, to sell your goods. Instead, you must physically take your character to the particular ward, to the particular city, and lead your retainer by the hand to tell them where to sell. Why is this so? What is the harm in directing your retainer from Limsa, to travel to Gridania in order to sell your goods? Retainers certainly seem capable enough of travelling around the world.

Additionally, items can only be moved from the retainer's inventory to/from the bazaar in the presence of the player. I fail to see why this sort of instruction could not take place via a linkpearl connecting the retainer and the player. Allowing a player to move new items into the bazaar remotely to replace those that have sold, or repricing existing items lower in order to move goods, would help compensate for the limited number of bazaar slots that retainers have.

Finally, retainers only buy and sell passively. Truth be told, purchasing materials is somewhat tedious and problematic. This seems more like the kind of task that should be given to a retainer. Perhaps, as alternative to "seek item" (or in addition), a retainer could be instructed to purchase certain types of items, at a given price or below, but the retainer would not be put into the market wards as a seller/buyer. Instead the retainer would be "roaming the markets" in virtually the same manner as the player would, buying items or searching for them as they come available. This frees the player from the drudgery of continually canvassing the markets, leaving them free to ... well ... be an adventurer. Since retainers can clearly move from city to city, retainers could move from city to city, searching them all (with time), thus providing some economic connection between the cities without that drudgery being forced upon the players.

Functionally, this could work by give the retainer the seek item task, not setting them in the wards, and waiting. After some length of time (and additional cost, to fund the retainers travel and prevent abuses), if the item is available, the retainer would purchase what can be purchased (length of time to prevent abuses and simulate players performing a similar search).

Retainer were supposed to free adventurers from being chained to the markets, but instead are chaining us to the markets themselves.

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In direct response to your points:

Link the Market Wards.

Having diversity of market wards, in the long run, I hope will make a richer and more compelling game world. There are alternatives to linking the market wards via a single NPC, as I have suggested, and hopefully you (and others) will critique them and point out flaws and improvements.

By allowing retainers to travel to sell in distant wards without requiring the player to travel there, and by allowing retainers to travel to purchase items, the markets would be linked. The first allows players to place the retainer where they wish to sell the item, without the player investing the time to travel there. The second allows players to place their retainers more freely where they wish, without the concern that no one will see the goods being sold. Together these could result in retainers being more evenly distributed through the various regional markets.

One stop shopping.

I agree that ease of buying and selling should be improved, but I (personally) dislike the over-simplification of the economy into talking to a single NPC. I believe that reducing the amount of time that the player must spend to buy and sell items is the key point here, not necessarily the time spent between desire to have an item and when the item is in the player's inventory.

If I can spend two minutes directing my retainer to go and seek puk wings (for wing glue, say), then go off and do guild leves, or explore the wilds, and two hours later when I return my retainer has the purchase, I would be pleased.

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In summary, while I agree with the OP's goals, I believe that the same functionality of linking the markets and making buying and selling less time intensive can be done by adding more functionality to the existing retainers.

• Make retainer "Seek Item" work
• Allow placement of retainers without the player traveling to the ward
• Allow players to adjust retainer bazaar remotely via retainer linkpearl
• Allow retainers to purchase items from the wards