Somnus and Mamool Ja

[NoloeTazier]

They also said at the time there not as strong as the other beastmen who can summon there primal. But you never know in update they could get to the point that they can summon a primal themself. I really want to know more about them also

I also can't wait to we allow to go and see the lands of the 4 race like lalafall homeland where a lot of things suppose to be poisonous. Not sure if this would carry on into Yoshi-p lore of the game but seeing how it was part of 1.0 plot line i'm sure they keep it.

Well they're a new race to Eorzea, if the Paragons get a hold of them then they could definitely teach them to summon a Primal. Which makes me wonder because the Ixali worshiped Garuda long before the Paragons taught them to summon her, so I wonder how they exactly learned about her if she was sealed up in Mor Dhona...well underground Mor Dhona.

[finiteHP]

Well they're a new race to Eorzea, if the Paragons get a hold of them then they could definitely teach them to summon a Primal. Which makes me wonder because the Ixali worshiped Garuda long before the Paragons taught them to summon her, so I wonder how they exactly learned about her if she was sealed up in Mor Dhona...well underground Mor Dhona.

I can give you part of the answer to that. Garuda and the other primals weren't sealed in Mor Dhona. What was sealed in Mor Dhona was a massive concentration of aether. The release of this aether just allowed the beast tribes to start summoning the primals. The tribes most likely worshipped the primals long before they could summon them. We know for sure that the Ixal have been worshipping Garuda for longer than they've been able to summon her. After all, they didn't lose the ability to fly recently. I really like the theory that was put forth in one of the other threads here on the Lore forum that Garuda might be the cause of them slowly losing their ability to fly as a way to make them more dependent on her.

My guess of how they originally learned of the primals is that in some earlier era the primals were free and later banished and worship of them has been passed down for thousands of years. One of the lore experts probably has a better theory though.

[NoloeTazier]

Fighting around and I had to kill some "invasive species" called Thavnairian Mitelings? Where's that? Radz-at-Han

Maybe this has something to do with the Mamool Ja

Radz-at-Han is a city state to the east (Othard), I thought this originally that maybe they (the Mamool Ja) were the creators of the Giantsgall Weapons which were shipped to Limsa, then the Mamool Ja followed their trade to Limsa as well. So I had to re-read and it states "to the east," and the Mamool Ja are to the west...so I assume new land. Monsters named after Thavnair may have found their way aboard the boats supplying the shipments (Thavnair being an island).

I can give you part of the answer to that. Garuda and the other primals weren't sealed in Mor Dhona. What was sealed in Mor Dhona was a massive concentration of aether. The release of this aether just allowed the beast tribes to start summoning the primals. The tribes most likely worshipped the primals long before they could summon them. We know for sure that the Ixal have been worshipping Garuda for longer than they've been able to summon her. After all, they didn't lose the ability to fly recently. I really like the theory that was put forth in one of the other threads here on the Lore forum that Garuda might be the cause of them slowly losing their ability to fly as a way to make them more dependent on her.

My guess of how they originally learned of the primals is that in some earlier era the primals were free and later banished and worship of them has been passed down for thousands of years. One of the lore experts probably has a better theory though.

I'll take the opening CS as quite literal, you see Ifrit and Titan fly from the explosion as they're released back to the land. The reason why Primals were not summoned prior to this was because they were sealed under the Silvertear Lake. The explosion of the Agrias, mostly due to the Ceruleum engines and ceruleum on board, was enough to shatter the seal under the lake and release the Primals. With the Tomb of Xandes and the Crystal Tower being in this general area I would say maybe Bahamut wasn't the only (Elder) Primal sealed by the Allagans. We know the Garleans encountered Primals in Othard PRIOR to the invasion of Eorzea, so what's the different between Othard Primals and Eorzean Primals? The Eorzean Primals were sealed away.

But yeah, the Primal names may be out there for everyone to know, we just as Adventurers just recently learned of them. I think the Ixali losing their primary feathers that helped them fly has more to do with the evolution that they underwent in Xelphatol than the worship of Garuda.

[Anonymoose]

What to make of the primal explosion bothers me, as well. I'm torn between a desire to take the video literally, which makes sense from a logical perspective, and believing that it is symbolism, which fits better with the lore.

Who knows at this point, but be careful not to discount the fact that we may be dealing with a chicken and egg situation. We're told that primals cannot exist when the aether that exists as a basic unit of reality is in a balanced harmony. We know they're dissolved back into the stream, but in what form? And if they are gone for so long, how does knowledge of them remain accurate? The Ixal once worshipped Garuda as the Empress of Birds - did this legend come to them from a past umbral era where Garuda existed, or did Garuda manifest in their image of her? That would go a long way to explaining what's up with The Moogle King. Do they have any "soul" at all, or are they a husk of dreams and the survival instinct to keep on chugging aether?

I don't really have a working theory, but for all we know, Primals are like thoughtforms - perhaps when aether is in imbalance, the power of belief and prayer can concentrate the aether on that idea and give it life. If there is a core, static essence that exists as an individual, we don't even know how literal that is. Was Garuda always Garuda? Or was Garuda then different from Garuda now? That would explain Louisoix's ritual, for starters. If this is true, I expect that would be a key difference between primals and elder primals... the elders would basically be holdovers from previous umbral eras. If you can also mold aether with thought-form, that puts a whole new spin on how voidsent are created; maybe Eorzeans are right about them being sent upon Eorzea...

All of that? Right now? Crazy fringe ideas. Don't mind me... just musing.

[Catapult]

I don't really have a working theory, but for all we know, Primals are like thoughtforms - perhaps when aether is in imbalance, the power of belief and prayer can concentrate the aether on that idea and give it life. If there is a core, static essence that exists as an individual, we don't even know how literal that is. Was Garuda always Garuda? Or was Garuda then different from Garuda now? That would explain Louisoix's ritual, for starters. If this is true, I expect that would be a key difference between primals and elder primals... the elders would basically be holdovers from previous umbral eras. If you can also mold aether with thought-form, that puts a whole new spin on how voidsent are created; maybe Eorzeans are right about them being sent upon Eorzea...

All of that? Right now? Crazy fringe ideas. Don't mind me... just musing.

And that has implications for the Twelve as well, not to mention the drive to have all of the Eorzean Alliance pray to the Twelve.

And how have the Twelve changed in concept over time? That's another kettle of fish.

[Diyne]

Well, looking around more and doing some more quests, I've found a lot of Somnus related stuff. I am under the assumption that a bunch of the poor fellows up at Last Hope are cultivating and selling Somnus, and it appears to be a purple, grass-like plant. Their attitude about it seems similar to anyone growing their own weed with the defense of "There's nothing wrong with growing natural plants." The poor desperate folk have to make a living somehow, I suppose. =(

After doing the pugilist quests and such, it does seem to be a 'dream flower' sort of thing, as some others have said already. Makes me think of milk of the poppy or some other form of opiate.

I would just like to add, though we've gathered this since 1.0--but jeez this game can be dark, and kind of depressing sometimes.

Thank you all for the discussion!

[Rannie]

And that has implications for the Twelve as well, not to mention the drive to have all of the Eorzean Alliance pray to the Twelve.

And how have the Twelve changed in concept over time? That's another kettle of fish.

mmm reminds me of how our mythology is ie how we can throw the Roman and Greek gods together just because the Roman's conquered the greeks .... Or pretty much what has been done with a lot of earth's religions. Could be the same with that. ^_^ One band conquers another and those different concepts of said primal/god changes to become the "new and improved" Version (btw it's the same with the greek god's by themselves it tends to be why they are worshipped for different things)

[Mtoto_Wamoto]

What to make of the primal explosion bothers me, as well. I'm torn between a desire to take the video literally, which makes sense from a logical perspective, and believing that it is symbolism, which fits better with the lore.

Who knows at this point, but be careful not to discount the fact that we may be dealing with a chicken and egg situation. We're told that primals cannot exist when the aether that exists as a basic unit of reality is in a balanced harmony. We know they're dissolved back into the stream, but in what form? And if they are gone for so long, how does knowledge of them remain accurate? The Ixal once worshipped Garuda as the Empress of Birds - did this legend come to them from a past umbral era where Garuda existed, or did Garuda manifest in their image of her? That would go a long way to explaining what's up with The Moogle King. Do they have any "soul" at all, or are they a husk of dreams and the survival instinct to keep on chugging aether?

I don't really have a working theory, but for all we know, Primals are like thoughtforms - perhaps when aether is in imbalance, the power of belief and prayer can concentrate the aether on that idea and give it life. If there is a core, static essence that exists as an individual, we don't even know how literal that is. Was Garuda always Garuda? Or was Garuda then different from Garuda now? That would explain Louisoix's ritual, for starters. If this is true, I expect that would be a key difference between primals and elder primals... the elders would basically be holdovers from previous umbral eras. If you can also mold aether with thought-form, that puts a whole new spin on how voidsent are created; maybe Eorzeans are right about them being sent upon Eorzea...

All of that? Right now? Crazy fringe ideas. Don't mind me... just musing.

I like to think the video in question was a literal event. Given that this is a fantasy setting...it's somewhat hard to separate myths from truth, legends from facts. However, given the fact that it is a Final Fantasy game, I'm gonna go with the thought that myths and legends hold a bit more tangibility when it comes to lore.

The Ixali may have worshiped Garuda long before they were able to summon her.


From the quest, Forever Taken.

Zoxio: Legends say the Paragons arrive in times of strife to lead those ones in darkness to the light of the primal ones. These ones have heard rumors that the Paragons have already called upon the groves of the feathered ones and scaled ones.

Perhaps the Paragons, who we now know to be Ascians, came to the Ixali long ago and began teaching them the ways of summoning the Primals, in particular, Garuda. However, due to the flow of aether at the time, the Ixali were unable to actually summon her into the realm.

It wasn't until Midgardsomr and the Agrius crashed into Silver Tear Lake (rumored to be the fount of all magic) and erupted, causing an imbalance and distortion of the aetherial flow, thus allowing the Ixali to finally summon Garuda in physical form several years later. This aetherial instability created a rift that began to grow over the next 15 years, altering the landscape of Mor Dhona, allowing the other primals to be summoned, and allowing Atomos to cross over from the Void. It was further expanded by the effects of Dalamud approaching closer to the planer.

That's my theory anyway.

[Anonymoose]

The Ixali may have worshiped Garuda long before they were able to summon her.

They most certainly did. My question is more along the lines of is the Garuda that they worshipped, the Empress of Birds, the same Garuda that we now see? Possibilities are vast. Perhaps Garuda contacted them from the aether but could not manifest in Hydaelyn without breaching that boundary and violating the laws of nature. Perhaps this entity was created from the concentration of aether and took on qualities of their belief. Perhaps the concentrations of aether have no qualities before thought and worship mold them. We don't really know and I was mostly just musing about the open door, so to speak.

There's no question that the Ixal have worshipped Garuda for a long time. My working theory is that it was actually her influence that caused them to lose their feathers a thousand years ago. In some ways she blessed them to make them worship her, in other ways she cursed them to make them dependent on her, all to ensure that her followers would give her what she demanded - aether. Of course, that still doesn't tell is what she is.

Perhaps the Paragons, who we now know to be Ascians, came to the Ixali long ago and began teaching them the ways of summoning the Primals, in particular, Garuda. However, due to the flow of aether at the time, the Ixali were unable to actually summon her into the realm.

This is something I still don't trust completely. Paragon and Archon are two words that share etymological roots of the same ilk as Angel. All of these words refer back to the same original root - messenger. In fact, one language of the game even uses an old Hebrew / Arabic root for messenger (saliah) to refer to the Archons by title. I'm skeptical that either of things things exist in Hydaelyn at all.

If the Circle of Knowing is completely trustworthy, they themselves have no power. They told us so. For many, this got lost in a sea of red herrings, but Thancred, Y'shtola, and Louisoix said flat out that they are just students of prophecy and nothing more. The rumors about Urianger were just that - they spread them to distract the Empire's attention while the Daybreak was found and the Grand Companies of Eorzea were reestablished.

It could be that Archons and Paragons are just legends of Angels and both the Circle of Knowing and the Ascians adopted these terms to borrow the ethos of these trusted titles and prevent too many questions from being asked with so little time to act. For all we know, the Circle of Knowing do have a lot of power. For all we know under the Ascian masks are the members themselves. "But they have shadows!" Maybe that was the red herring all along. Maybe they fake shadowlessness to distract our suspicions. Who knows. Discount nothing - ride every straw man theory as far as it goes - even if its likely wrong, you can still find the occasional nugget of truth or inspiration for a new idea.

Luckily, reading carefully is all the difference. The game tells very few outright lies. Most things are blatant truth or twisted truth.