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  1. #31
    Player
    Dzian's Avatar
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    Feb 2012
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    Ul'dah
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    Character
    Scarlett Dzian
    World
    Sargatanas
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    Bard Lv 76
    Quote Originally Posted by BlaiseLallaise View Post
    I feel as strongly as you do on this topic. However, I see things a little differently. I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but I see the solution differently. You suggest that the class be redefined such that it has little to no resemblance to its job. Is that accurate? My issue with that notion is that it ultimately renders the class/job (or class/advanced class) dynamic useless. Whether it's a JOB or an Advanced Class, it's related to the base class. If the class and job share almost no similarities, even to the point of having different roles, then that relationship ceases to exist, as does the need to have a relationship between them.
    Thats a pretty good way of putting it. it's kinda what i was trying to say below but not quite worded so well :P

    But yeah the further you try and push classes/ jobs into different roles / styles the more you lose any reason to connect them at all

    Quote Originally Posted by Dzian View Post
    I'm Kinda reserving judgement till beta but i have one comment.

    With the op's examples of skills and progression it really doesnt work out any differently than totally detaching jobs from the armory system alltogether. you just just as easily have a seperate skill set from 1-20 as you do 20+

    the advantage of seperating them entirely though means you have infinitely more diversity because each and every job can be built on a totally blank frame. where by keeping them connected a black mage will still be built on a thaumatage frame and thus be restricted to thaumatage mechanics of a sort.

    Plus in the ops example everything that follows the thm path could pretty easily fit a red mage job frame.
    in which case my arguement would be that it would be simply better to have 2 totally seperate jobs. blm and rdm, both independant from the other than to try and branch them both out from one frame
    (0)

  2. #32
    Player
    Alaltus's Avatar
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    May 2011
    Location
    Gridania
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    938
    Character
    Mementus Veventus
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Lancer Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by BlaiseLallaise View Post
    I feel as strongly as you do on this topic. However, I see things a little differently. I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but I see the solution differently. You suggest that the class be redefined such that it has little to no resemblance to its job. Is that accurate? My issue with that notion is that it ultimately renders the class/job (or class/advanced class) dynamic useless. Whether it's a JOB or an Advanced Class, it's related to the base class. If the class and job share almost no similarities, even to the point of having different roles, then that relationship ceases to exist, as does the need to have a relationship between them.

    If, however, the class is redefined such that it can choose from two or more roles, or even a hybrid role, then the door is opened for the multiple jobs per class dynamic. If, for example, the Gladiator is rebuilt such that it can be a good tank, or a good dps, or even do a decent job at both, then we can define the jobs (PLD and DRK, per se) such that the Paladin enhances (and is limited to) the Gladiator's tankability at the cost of it's ability to dps. The opposite would be true for the Dark Knight. Now, what we end up with is one class that can play different roles, and two jobs that play completely differently from each other, even if they share some skills.

    The only drawback to this is the "instant 50" problem. I completely understand why people wouldn't like this, but when the alternative is being forced to level from 1 again, I'll accept being lv 50, mainly since it draws on the base class for much of its skills and it doesn't make sense to suddenly not know them anymore. I wish I had a better solution for it, but I do not.
    I would say the answer would be to make gaining job abilities/traits/etc something you have to invest time into. Something more substantial than a questline. Say at 30 gladiator you unlock Paladin and level to 50. You unlock everything on Paladin as your leveling but at the end of it you then want to play Dark Knight. Rather than everything being given to you in a few quests you have to do the same/similar amount of work into unlocking Dark Knight's skills as you did Paladin's. For example a merit point like system for paying for abilities etc.
    (0)
    Last edited by Alaltus; 02-19-2013 at 10:07 PM.

  3. #33
    Player
    Reika's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Limsa Lominsa
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    4,429
    Character
    Reika Shadowheart
    World
    Durandal
    Main Class
    Armorer Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by BlaiseLallaise View Post
    I feel as strongly as you do on this topic. However, I see things a little differently. I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but I see the solution differently. You suggest that the class be redefined such that it has little to no resemblance to its job. Is that accurate? My issue with that notion is that it ultimately renders the class/job (or class/advanced class) dynamic useless. Whether it's a JOB or an Advanced Class, it's related to the base class. If the class and job share almost no similarities, even to the point of having different roles, then that relationship ceases to exist, as does the need to have a relationship between them.

    If, however, the class is redefined such that it can choose from two or more roles, or even a hybrid role, then the door is opened for the multiple jobs per class dynamic. If, for example, the Gladiator is rebuilt such that it can be a good tank, or a good dps, or even do a decent job at both, then we can define the jobs (PLD and DRK, per se) such that the Paladin enhances (and is limited to) the Gladiator's tankability at the cost of it's ability to dps. The opposite would be true for the Dark Knight. Now, what we end up with is one class that can play different roles, and two jobs that play completely differently from each other, even if they share some skills.

    The only drawback to this is the "instant 50" problem. I completely understand why people wouldn't like this, but when the alternative is being forced to level from 1 again, I'll accept being lv 50, mainly since it draws on the base class for much of its skills and it doesn't make sense to suddenly not know them anymore. I wish I had a better solution for it, but I do not.
    My thoughts are however that the class and the job should very well be different. There shouldn't be advanced classes, there should be this class and then that class. They might as well just eliminate classes all together and keep the advanced classes if they keep up with the current system. The system is going to need that major overhaul whether we like it or not in order to not be utterly stupid. With the current system, GLD -> PLD or GLD -> DRK will both = tank. They wouldn't have different roles if they were both attached to gladiator. The skill set of gladiator determines this. 5 measly skills added to DRK that try to focus on damage would just make it a garbage tank. They would have to majorly overhaul gladiator in order for it to change accordingly, or just not use gladiator at all. The same holds for all the classes. I think the one that can get away with not changing is archer, since all but 1 of the songs come from the BRD class quests. The rest, the 'JOB' is mostly defined by the class skills, and not really the 5 measly skills they thought would define them. This is why it all needs to change. The class cant be the same as the job or there cant be any class -> multi-job system.

    And yes there is the insta-50 think that I and (idk how many) others wouldn't want. While they are better off adding a new class for each and every new job, classes still cant be too similar to the job or else the class will continue to be totally worthless.
    (0)

  4. #34
    Player
    BlaiseLallaise's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Ul'dah
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    Blaise Lallaise
    World
    Sargatanas
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    Pugilist Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaltus View Post
    I would say the answer would be to make gaining job abilities/traits/etc something you have to invest time into. Something more substantial than a questline. Say at 30 gladiator you unlock Paladin and level to 50. You unlock everything on Paladin as your leveling but at the end of it you then want to play Dark Knight. Rather than everything being given to you in a few quests you have to do the same/similar amount of work into unlocking Dark Knight's skills as you did Paladin's. For example a merit point like system for paying for abilities etc.
    That's actually a pretty good idea. I like it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reika View Post
    My thoughts are however that the class and the job should very well be different. There shouldn't be advanced classes, there should be this class and then that class. They might as well just eliminate classes all together and keep the advanced classes if they keep up with the current system. The system is going to need that major overhaul whether we like it or not in order to not be utterly stupid. With the current system, GLD -> PLD or GLD -> DRK will both = tank. They wouldn't have different roles if they were both attached to gladiator. The skill set of gladiator determines this. 5 measly skills added to DRK that try to focus on damage would just make it a garbage tank. They would have to majorly overhaul gladiator in order for it to change accordingly, or just not use gladiator at all. The same holds for all the classes. I think the one that can get away with not changing is archer, since all but 1 of the songs come from the BRD class quests. The rest, the 'JOB' is mostly defined by the class skills, and not really the 5 measly skills they thought would define them. This is why it all needs to change. The class cant be the same as the job or there cant be any class -> multi-job system.

    And yes there is the insta-50 think that I and (idk how many) others wouldn't want. While they are better off adding a new class for each and every new job, classes still cant be too similar to the job or else the class will continue to be totally worthless.
    You effectively nailed why multiple jobs per class wouldn't work in the 1.0 system. I completely agree. The last thing I want to see is a garbage DRK tank. It appears the only real options are:

    1. Leave it as is (1 class, 1 job)
    2. Multiple jobs per class (requiring another class overhaul to make it work)
    3. Completely separate classes and jobs (effectively eliminating one or the other, also requiring an overhaul)

    They all have merits and drawbacks, and the community as a whole will probably never agree on which is best. That's why I believe SE will opt to not change anything. Like you, I wouldn't agree with that move, but I doubt it'll stop me from playing. If I must level an entirely different class just so I can play a Dark Knight, so be it.
    (2)

  5. #35
    Player
    Isaaru's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    650
    Character
    Isaaru Durai
    World
    Hyperion
    Main Class
    Fisher Lv 50
    This thread at this moment is the equivalent to me making a thread saying DRG does too much damage and should be nerfed. The problem with this is I do not know how much damage DRG does because I have not seen or played DRG in the 2.0 version. Just like how the OP said that classes are bad. Yeah they were pretty bad in 1.0, but abilities and traits are going to be changed in 2.0 to accommodate for the new battle system. As already stated in this thread, before an overhaul should even be considered we should see how classes play out in 2.0.

    Jobs were and always are meant to excel in each respective role while being restricted in other aspects. The concept of a class is to have more customization for solo play.
    (0)
    http://mercsxiv.enjin.com/home

  6. #36
    Player
    Xeia's Avatar
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    Feb 2013
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    92
    Character
    Inakha Khatayin
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Astrologian Lv 90
    Why would you ever want a Paladin and a Dark Knight to stem from the same class? Why does that seem to be a go-to example? Forget their FF lore for a second -- in terms of gameplay, they're pretty extreme opposites. I can't think of many skills I'd be happy with them sharing.

    I have plenty to say against classing getting more than one job, but that seems to be a second argument. And it's not what OP was getting at.

    So here's my suggestion. It's simple enough that it can actually be conceivably done without changing the way anything works:
    • Balance the stats between jobs and their respective classes. Jobs should have more specialized bonuses (specialized, not stronger) while classes have a more even spread. But balanced means balanced in terms of application, not that they have a mathematically equal sum. These spread out stats have to actually give the classes some benefit rather than just making them less competent and their job's role.
    • Increase the number of job-earned abilities. I'll use 10 as an example here, though the actual number would have to be tweaked to find a good balance.
    • Give jobs a small number of free slots to take skills from its two partner-classes. We'll say 5. Jobs retain use of all of their class skills.
    • Since jobs have 15 abilities outside what they inherit from their class (10 job abilities, 5 free slots), give classes 15-20 free slots. Again, I don't care about the actual numbers, but just gernally. Give them a bunch. Enough to make up for the fact that job-specific skills are stronger.
    • Obviously, classes would need enough abilities that were unique to them and their job in order to stop all classes basically being able to achieve the same or similar ability spread.

    Yes, I'm fully aware that that's basically how it's set up right now.. my point is this: The idea that jobs are highly-specialized and incredibly powerful within their specific role, while classes are far more versatile and sport increased flexibility in solo or low-man situations is fine. What is bad about it is simply what everyone's already pointed out -- that isn't how it works.

    So why not just push what we have a little further in either direction instead of going crazy with overhauls? I'm very optimistic that, come ARR, we will see a... manifestation of this sentiment, in one form or another. Make jobs even more specialized than they were -- they should stand very distinct from their classes once they're fully developed (through the use of more than a measly 5 unique skills). But actually make classes as versatile as you promised us they are. Hell, in completing the class-specific quest why not award me a bonus when I'm on that class without a soul crystal equipped and without a party?

    Make me WANT to solo without my job on, SE.
    (2)

  7. #37
    Player
    Dzian's Avatar
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    Ul'dah
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    Scarlett Dzian
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Bard Lv 76
    Quote Originally Posted by Xeia View Post
    Why would you ever want a Paladin and a Dark Knight to stem from the same class? Why does that seem to be a go-to example? Forget their FF lore for a second -- in terms of gameplay, they're pretty extreme opposites. I can't think of many skills I'd be happy with them sharing..
    The original idea way back when. was to give "gladiators" a dps option in a party where a tank is already present / not needed.

    it has on occassion even been "loosly" mentioned by devs. so it tends to be a good and common example of the problems with the old system. (i say old as i havent played arr but i do hope there are changes in it)
    (2)

  8. #38
    Player
    BlaiseLallaise's Avatar
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    Blaise Lallaise
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    Sargatanas
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    Pugilist Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Dzian View Post
    ...it has on occassion even been "loosly" mentioned by devs. so it tends to be a good and common example of the problems with the old system...
    I can't find the post, but I believe Yoshi-P may have used it in an example. Whether it was him or just a dev, it spoke pretty loudly that the thought is on their minds.

    So, instead of bitching about how I think Dark Knight would fit better with Marauder, I decided to consider how it might fit with Gladiator. Then it hit me. What if Gladiator could use both 1-handed and 2-handed swords. They are, in essence, a 'sword user'. Does that necessarily restrict it to 1-handed swords? I can't see why it would.

    Including 2-handers into their weaponry, Gladiator branching to Dark Knight suddenly isn't such a stretch. This is given PLD is restricted to 1-handed, and DRK is restricted to 2-handed, and each type of sword has its own weapon skills. We will have to see what SE decides to do.
    (1)

  9. #39
    Player
    Reika's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Reika Shadowheart
    World
    Durandal
    Main Class
    Armorer Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by BlaiseLallaise View Post
    I can't find the post, but I believe Yoshi-P may have used it in an example. Whether it was him or just a dev, it spoke pretty loudly that the thought is on their minds.

    So, instead of bitching about how I think Dark Knight would fit better with Marauder, I decided to consider how it might fit with Gladiator. Then it hit me. What if Gladiator could use both 1-handed and 2-handed swords. They are, in essence, a 'sword user'. Does that necessarily restrict it to 1-handed swords? I can't see why it would.

    Including 2-handers into their weaponry, Gladiator branching to Dark Knight suddenly isn't such a stretch. This is given PLD is restricted to 1-handed, and DRK is restricted to 2-handed, and each type of sword has its own weapon skills. We will have to see what SE decides to do.
    You can give GLD a 2h weapon, but that wouldn't change its skillset which has too many shield based abilities, all defensive based abilities, no aoe attacks, and no really powerful weaponskills other than what Dark Knight job skills would have. So you 10 or so abilities become useless with a greatsword equipped and not tanking, 5 cross class skills are lost, and all you gain are 5 abilities. Thats not going to work either - without an overhaul of gladiator.

    5 abilities pertaining to the job is what kills any ability to do any of that. Only a Overhaul can make it happen.
    (1)

  10. #40
    Player
    BlaiseLallaise's Avatar
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    Blaise Lallaise
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    Sargatanas
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    Pugilist Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Reika View Post
    You can give GLD a 2h weapon, but that wouldn't change its skillset which has too many shield based abilities, all defensive based abilities, no aoe attacks, and no really powerful weaponskills other than what Dark Knight job skills would have. So you 10 or so abilities become useless with a greatsword equipped and not tanking, 5 cross class skills are lost, and all you gain are 5 abilities. Thats not going to work either - without an overhaul of gladiator.

    5 abilities pertaining to the job is what kills any ability to do any of that. Only a Overhaul can make it happen.
    As I've stated before, I totally agree class overhaul would be necessary, and that is an implied fact in my previous comment. Just giving a 2-handed sword to Gladiator implies some kind of overhaul. Just so we're clear, my stance is that the only scenario where class overhaul is not necessary would be if SE continued with the 1 class, 1 job mechanic.
    (1)

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