Truely separating class from job - an overhaul (again).

[Allistar]

Either get of jobs or get rid of classes...that will end all of the speculations.

[Zenaku]

For what is obvious, for classes to not be useless. I thought I made that clear.

I don't understand the logic here the job is the class the class is the job so i don't see the point of separating the class. If i remember right the point of the class is for solo players and the job system is for partying.

So yes class is pretty much useless for full party base stuff but not for soloing / low manning so i don't see the point and they never going to do it. You said to someone else on here that the system is not fine will if it was not then i don't think SE would keep using it.

We playing there game not our game if you dislike this system then go play a wow-clone where you have to do a tree system. I don't see the issue here at all the job is the class the class is the job.

One is for soloing and the other is for partying so what the big deal? you just adding a dam stone to your class that give you 5 more spell big deal overall it still a class using the same dam spell you use you just now limit to only using 3 class vs the old system where it was use them all.

[Xeia]

You said to someone else on here that the system is not fine will if it was not then i don't think SE would keep using it.

We playing there game not our game if you dislike this system then go play a wow-clone where you have to do a tree system.

God, I'm so sick of this. Whether I agree with the OP or not is irrelevant at this point.

Yes, SE will continue to use a bad system (perhaps without even KNOWING it's bad), if none of their players voice any objection to it. Reika did not throw a fit. She did not swear at the dev team. She has not demanded changes and threatened to quit over it. She has stated her opinion in an easy-to-follow manner, complete with examples, in a place where other players can see it and either agree with it, tweak it, or explain why they don't like it. This is exactly the type of feedback that makes a game. Don't tell her to go play another game because you don't like her opinion. Try instead posting something in favor of the current system that isn't "it's what we have, so it must be the absolute best way it possibly can be."

I'd much rather the players who can't write a respectful post leave XIV for WoW than those who post useful feedback for the devs.

[Zenaku]

Whether I agree with the OP or not, can't really ignore this.

Yes, SE will continue to use a system, regardless of how awful (without even KNOWING it's awful), if none of their players voice any objection to it. Reika did not throw a fit. She did not swear at the dev team. She has not demanded changes and threatened to quit over it. She has stated her opinion in an easy-to-follow manner, complete with examples, in a place where other players can see it and either agree with it, tweak it, or explain why they don't like it. This is exactly the type of feedback that makes a game. Try instead posting something in favor of the current system that isn't "it's what we have, so it must be the absolute best way it possibly can be."

I'd much rather the players who can't write a respectful post leave XIV for WoW than those who post useful feedback for the devs.

The problem is the person want to cut the class from the job when it's not even needed. A job would be noting without the class it just be 5 spells and AF and Relic weps. You have pretty end up with clones of the class two of everything that does not sound like a great idea.

Yoshi-p said the point of class is for people who want to solo and low man stuff. With Class you can use any spell and a lancer can back up heal without issue. The job was for party and making the class a lock role that what everyone was asking for 1year ago oh everyone can be anything we want jobs like FFXI where a white mage is the main healer and PLD is a tank. So yoshi-p made the job system and it working out just fine i don't see any issue with it.

I wish they just took off the class system all together so people wont make topic like this. Because it seem people are still confuse what is a class and what is a job.

[Dzian]

So yes class is pretty much useless for full party base stuff but not for soloing / low manning.

Just to be brief. Classes were also "pretty much useless" for soloing / low man. Thats a fairly accurate reason behind why tbey were almost never used in 1.0. There are dozens of examples of why jobs solod/lowmand better than classes in 1.0
thats why this subject keeps coming up.

If ARR sees the same trends between class/job that 1.0 did then it'll still be a huge problem and classes will still never be used.

The problem is the person want to cut the class from the job when it's not even needed. A job would be noting without the class it just be 5 spells and AF and Relic weps. You have pretty end up with clones of the class two of everything that does not sound like a great idea.

Many would say that is exactly what the problem is. A class and its job are pretty much identical. for the most part a job can do everything its respective class can do and more.

Sure a warrior can't cure or stoneskin or invigorate. but throughout 1.0 the simple fact was it just didnt need to. what it lost in defense it more than made up for in offence. and every job was pretty much the same

[Seirra_Lanzce]

im holding out again to see how it gooes in ARR really.

[Mjollnir]

I'm always surprised how many people I see advocating this idea. While it looks nice on the surface, I can't see it working fairly without a complete overhaul of the way classes and jobs are currently set up. To follow your example, let's say I'm a level 50 BLM but have never touched NEC. Now I go and unlock it and all of a sudden I'm a top level Necromancer. Why is that a problem? Other than the fact that the two jobs would be strikingly similar, balancing issues between classes.

From 1.0, there's questing to unlock the class which involves a pre-req of having advanced with a different class. This adds flavour and reason as to why you've attempted that specialization. There's then a series of quests and group battles to unlock the abilities and gain the AF, so whereas you may be a lv. 50 Necromancer, you'd not be as nearly top-level as you would be after investing the time to complete the additional content keyed to the job.

I honestly do expect that this is what we'll see in future. There has been a stated desire to reduce time spent levelling (ie multiple jobs) for a focus on end-game content. And yes, I do suppose the partner job for BRD will be RNG, SMN will have a parity with... PUP..? MECHACARBUNCLE!!!

I do hope classes remain the forte of the single-player experience (due to cross-class skills) so they remain relevant throughout the ARR experience.

[Reika]

I disagree with the thought of classes being made to be weaker than jobs intentionally. The team was rushed, had very little to work with, and way too many client limitations. Jobs were introduced with their names as they are mainly because people wanted that nostalgia. There is nothing wrong with classes being separate entities. One limitation being the ability to even add more classes, or new things to level up. Which I feel is why we have class-job locking in the first place. I was always against not having to level up the job separately from lvl 1 after you unlock it. With ARR's lack of or reduced limitations on what they can do, they can make things right.

The idea of More than one job branching off of current classes only means there will be little to nothing to level up in coming expansions, and in order for it to not be broken and/or stupid, they would have to overhaul every class to preform different skills than jobs anyways, or else every job is going to be the same thing with different names if it comes from the same class. Such as DRK also coming from GLD will be a take UNLESS they overhaul glad to not be an extreme tank by itself, but only change to extreme tank if you are on PLD, and be something else if you are on DRK. But then they would have to follow my above example anyways in order to achieve that. The class would have to be different than the job. The Idea of branching more than one job from each class also ensures that there will be little to nothing to level up once a new job is announced. I for one do not want to be instanta lvl50 at expansion time, and don't even have to play that new job in order to lvl cap it.

There also no reason to assume that classes cant or shouldn't take on party roles. Class and job are just names. We call WHM, WAR, and the others JOBS because other FF titles they were part of a JOB system, and after the class reforms, classes took on party roles WITHOUT the presence of jobs. But remember that none of those other titles had more than one CLASS beyond squire if you would call that a class or 'that player'. It was always one thing until they got a job crystal or lvled up enough to become a different job. FFXIV's classes could be made to have roles of their own, however their roles should not be Identical to the jobs that branch off of them.

So if you look at it from a logical perspective, there are no jobs in FFXIV, only classes and advanced classes. With a reform to separate the class from job, there will no longer be 8 classes and 8 advanced classes, but 16 classes to use in a party. Each and every one could be balanced to be able to solo, as they all already are, but not be the same like they are now, and still have their own roles in Parties and raids.


This is not about going back to being able to cross class every ability and be a god. This is about helping classes have more usability besides these rare solo cases. Yes overhauls take time. Unfortunantly they will inevitably have to overhaul classes and jobs multiple times as they add new classes, new jobs, and new content. Especialy if they plan to branch more than one job off of one class. Overhauling will be needed. Else, what can the next JOB to branch off of THM be but another BLM without the ancient magic that uses the exact same weaponry? Ancient magic is not what makes the BLM, its all the other fire/ice/lightning/other elemental magic - which is learned by the THM under this poor system, not the BLM - that makes the BLM.

[Psykotsu]

Either get of jobs or get rid of classes...that will end all of the speculations.

Can we give up on making this suggestion?

[BlaiseLallaise]

...

I feel as strongly as you do on this topic. However, I see things a little differently. I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but I see the solution differently. You suggest that the class be redefined such that it has little to no resemblance to its job. Is that accurate? My issue with that notion is that it ultimately renders the class/job (or class/advanced class) dynamic useless. Whether it's a JOB or an Advanced Class, it's related to the base class. If the class and job share almost no similarities, even to the point of having different roles, then that relationship ceases to exist, as does the need to have a relationship between them.

If, however, the class is redefined such that it can choose from two or more roles, or even a hybrid role, then the door is opened for the multiple jobs per class dynamic. If, for example, the Gladiator is rebuilt such that it can be a good tank, or a good dps, or even do a decent job at both, then we can define the jobs (PLD and DRK, per se) such that the Paladin enhances (and is limited to) the Gladiator's tankability at the cost of it's ability to dps. The opposite would be true for the Dark Knight. Now, what we end up with is one class that can play different roles, and two jobs that play completely differently from each other, even if they share some skills.

The only drawback to this is the "instant 50" problem. I completely understand why people wouldn't like this, but when the alternative is being forced to level from 1 again, I'll accept being lv 50, mainly since it draws on the base class for much of its skills and it doesn't make sense to suddenly not know them anymore. I wish I had a better solution for it, but I do not.