Please get rid of (or tone down a LOT) hate reset mechanics in A Realm Reborn

[Abriael]

At the moment in FFXIV hate reset mechanics seem to be the "in" design concept to make boss fights artificially harder.

I don't think I've ever seen a MMORPG in which hate reset mechanics are overused as much as in this one, and in which hate is as hard (and often simply impossible) to get back once it has reset. And to be honest I've seen almost them all (all of the major ones and a large percentage of the minor).

The main reason why other developers don't use this mechanic much or at all is simply because it isn't fun, at all.

Not only it isn't fun (as making a role temporarily or permanently useless stripping him of all control is simply bad design entertainment-wise, and it doesn't happen to any other role in the game), but it also shifts the outcome of a battle much more towards luck than towards skill, as the lottery on who gets attacked next will often determine or will get very near to determine if the battle is won or lost.

On top of it, even counting games in which hate reset mechanics are (seldom) used, in none of them the tank is as powerless in getting hate back.

In other games when the hate resets a couple of aggro techniques like provoke and similar will bring hate back, forcing tanks to be on their toes but not making them feel powerless.

In FFXIV often, when the hate reset kicks, a paladin that throws ALL his hate-generating skills, has full enemity stacked gear and quaffs a maddening potion won't even go into the red.

That makes for the least fun fights I ever had in a MMORPG.

The solutions are simple (and a combination of them would be preferable).

1: abolish the use of hate reset mechanics on bosses, or at least make them the exception, not the norm. When creating boss mechanics be creative, not disruptive (IE: valorize people's roles instead of demolishing them. A good example is Raven, that valorizes the role of the ranged DPS by giving them something only they can do).

2: Give more instant power to hate generating moves like flash, provoke and the like, since, at the moment, they're little more than a whiff that the boss will mostly ignore. Getting hate back after a hate reset should be fast if one has planned ahead and kept his moves in reserve.

3: Give us more covering abilities or reduce the cooldown of cover by a LOT. If we can't be allowed to perform our role (which is silly to begin with), at least we should be able to block most hits against our team mates.

4: Put less (or none) emphasis on speed runs. Completing content quickly (and getting rewarded with less time investment) should be its own reward. Putting all the emphasis in doing stuff as quick as possible not only isn't fun (you got to skip cutscenes, and you don't have the time to enjoy the content), but it also forces the DPS to go all out all the time, turning getting hate back after a reset into a desperate task.

I've been a tank on every MMORPG I played since the word "tank" has been applied to multiplayer roles (which means since before MMOs came to light, with MUDs), and I honestly can't remember a single MMO in which tanking is more of a chore and less fun than this one after the enemity reform a year or so ago.

Holding aggro is our role, preventing us to perform it properly in so many boss fights doesn't make much sense at all.

There are so many much better (and more creative) ways to make boss fights challenging that this kind of role-breaking mechanic shouldn't be needed at all.

[Reika]

Monsters are going to be on a 'gambit' system, so they wont be spamming hate resets like they do now. They will instead be at certain and predictable times. It wont be an issue anymore.

[Abriael]

Monsters are going to be on a 'gambit' system, so they wont be spamming hate resets like they do now. They will instead be at certain and predictable times. It wont be an issue anymore.

The problem isn't just when they do, but also how disproportionately difficult it is to get hate back.

[Raikki]

1/6 raid bosses does it and Ifrit Extreme does it. In both of those fights, hate isn't hard at all to get back because they're party-wide resets. Stronghold bosses don't do it. Darnus doesn't do it. It's not present in any relic faction leves. I really don't think it's as overused as you say.

[Babydoll]

The problem isn't just when they do, but also how disproportionately difficult it is to get hate back.

Yeah I really hope they fix this in 2.0. If the tank ever dies its weird how hard it is to get hate back. The enmity in this game is very strange. Hopefully the gambit system fixes it.

[Dzian]

1/6 raid bosses does it and Ifrit Extreme does it. In both of those fights, hate isn't hard at all to get back because they're party-wide resets. Stronghold bosses don't do it. Darnus doesn't do it. It's not present in any relic faction leves. I really don't think it's as overused as you say.

It is however used in Moogles, Skirmish mobs spam it, a few of the AF fights and a chunk of open world stuff like the magiteks in Castrum and other NMs. It really is an overused mechanic that should be toned down quite a bit.

I'm also with the OP in that hate grabbing abilities really aren't strong enough to get hate back when it resets. you can flash voke and flat blade co-co after AI and still not get hate back in some situations. a crit thundaga couldn't get cancelled in time or something such. and for paladin it's tricky cos if you lose hate it's hard to get phalanx or wardrum off and sometimes you cover the blue name in the party list and moments later it jumps to someone else cos the guy that pulled the hate popped chamelon or something.

but yeah hate reset is used far to much i think. especially on the rare occassion where co-co pops ai twice in 15-20 seconds and you're stuck with cool downs

[Abriael]

1/6 raid bosses does it and Ifrit Extreme does it. In both of those fights, hate isn't hard at all to get back because they're party-wide resets. Stronghold bosses don't do it. Darnus doesn't do it. It's not present in any relic faction leves. I really don't think it's as overused as you say.

That's still a lot more than in any other MMORPG, and simply too much. And when it happens, it simply makes the fight not fun to tank. "not hard at all to get back?" I don't think so.

There's a reason why every other developer uses it much less, and when it's used it's also much easier to counter. And that's because, as it is implemented in FFXIV, and with this kind of frequency, it's more a chore than any fun.

I'm aware that there are a few vocal elitists that think tanking should be an absolutely unfun chore reserved only to demigods with all double/triple melds and the very top gear that can be found by grinding the game for two years. But I'm quite sure this kind of attitude isn't gonna carry A Realm Reborn very far.

[Raikki]

That's still a lot more than in any other MMORPG, and simply too much. And when it happens, it simply makes the fight not fun to tank. "not hard at all to get back?" I don't think so.

There's a reason why every other developer uses it much less, and when it's used it's also much easier to counter. And that's because, as it is implemented in FFXIV, and with this kind of frequency, it's more a chore than any fun.

Party-wide resets aren't really hard to get back at all, you just keep enough burst-enmity off cooldown to pick it back up right away. I also don't think it's too much to ask for damage dealers to be able to spot hate resets and temporarily hold back. I don't see how it's a chore at all.

[Abriael]

Party-wide resets aren't really hard to get back at all, you just keep enough burst-enmity off cooldown to pick it back up right away. I also don't think it's too much to ask for damage dealers to be able to spot hate resets and temporarily hold back. I don't see how it's a chore at all.

You mean in a game in which beating down the boss as fast as humanly possible (which is also the very opposite of fun) is the only way to get decent rewards? Why yes, for a lot of people that is too much to ask.

[Cynthis]

I think getting rid of speedruns is much more important. For my money, mechanisms that shake up the battles and make them less choreographed are a good thing although they should be varied and not abused. I don't think hate reset is in the game right now though.