Better Materia System

[Shougun]

Revised Suggested Materia System – RSMS – [Updated: 11/16/2012]

This materia system is designed to reduce perceived negatives and also introduce new positives. It is worth to know that 2.0 will have a modified materia system – we know some aspects of these changes.

Current Materia system cons:

• Random Number Generator (RNG)

The RNG is what creates an average of success/attempts – that X work on AVERAGE means Y returns. However everyone knows the RNG doesn't care about work; averages are made over mass scale and often have no particular meaning to a singular (player) – except frustrations.
2.0 Dev confirmed: higher chance (still RNG but more likely success)

• Limited Purposes and Expansion (limited variety)

The materia system can’t be used on unique and untradeables (U/U, FFXI = Rare/Ex). U/U materia is highly impractical. Adding higher tiers require lower successful chance of meld, every so many tiers you will have to lower the overall chance of melds in order to balance out the higher end chances. The difference between tiers is only useful for “chance”. There is a high encouragement to “stack” one stat rather than diversify. Adding a new type of materia increases the wheel (RNG wheel) and makes obtaining a particular materia less likely (and more annoying).
2.0 change: in worrying about stat inflation materia power will be reduced

• Anti x [crafting] x [dungeon gear]

Seems backwards but because crafting can only have materia SE has to make crafted gear weaker in expectation of melds. Also because crafted gear is expected to be melded dungeon gear has to be built around that otherwise it is also no good.

• Barrier to entry

You can’t readily enter the materia world. You make your first materia at level 2 to find out that you have to level a craft to use it to find out that you must have a catalyst. If you don’t have any friends to do it for you – you will never get to use your tier one materia. Or tier two most likely.

• Break that expensive china

The breaking system encourages breaking of materia – constantly gathering and breaking it, it makes each individual materia feel irrelevant in the greater scheme.
We know in 2.0 that the materia system will have more favorable odds, while the frustration will happily be less; the exact same problems still exist. However, the changes are welcomed over the no changes. Keep in mind there may be more changes then what we have been told so far.
2.0 change: Melded gear and HQ gear should offer better chances at materia quality

Proposed changes:

• Items that are meldable have slots

Adding materia to an item takes up a slot. If you wanted to encourage variety allow some materia to take multiple slots. Then make it so you can’t stack materia BUT there are materia that has low slot cost and an efficient stat boost. Then make higher slot cost materia that also has a higher base stat boost but lower efficiency (lower efficiency to not encourage a different type of stat stacking). IE. 1 slot – 3 strength. 2 slot – 5 strength. . (May also force the system in other manors by just saying you can never have two of the same materia on an item or by reducing efficiency of duplicates).

Edit: Forgo suggested in another thread that crafters can add slots to items. Would add crafters back into the mix of materia, I suggest that gear that can be slotted start with one then, and then you have to get some materials for the crafter to add more slots. (Up to a maximum, maximum can be unique to each item or not)

• Materia may be placed and removed from items at will without crafters (but crafters would be the efficient choice)

Allows crafting gear to be powerful on its own – allows dungeon gear to be slightly dynamic. In a general rule I suggest there to be items be purposely divided into materia +, materia -, materia ~ and perhaps materia 0. A repair mechanic will be listed below to address a possible issue of taking some money opportunities for crafters. Removing materia from a weapon should likely have a fixable repercussion (added in below as well)

+ Gear is gear that has more slots – a lot of crafting recipes can have this general idea (but not necessarily all) some dungeon gear could follow this as well (Special item with very low base stats but like 8 slots? Could be fun),

~ Gear is a general slot amount.

– Gear is very low to no materia, the purpose of no materia must be very particular as there is little reason to have no materia gear.

• Materia is from crafting*

Removing RNG from both melding and making requires a replacement system otherwise materia will flood the market. A crafting suggestion will be further in. *Also read below

• Materia may be obtained from monsters and quests

In order to prevent a progressively impossible materia acquisition allow monsters and quests to drop materia – some materia may be obtained only through these methods, the rate of materia drops should be scaled to the point that level 40 materia drops from level 50+ mobs and in rarity.

• Materia can be rare ex *

Materia that there cannot be dupcliates and also changes any weapon it is equipped into unsellable including the MW/AH. (You may remove the materia to make it sell able again if it is a sell able weapon). Rare ex materia is a great place to add special abilities or unique and unusual passives. They may also be lore related (relic quest?) and be named unlike normal materia.

Theory Effects:

• No barrier to entry

May use materia right away, getting your first materia might be from a quest rather then spirit bonding. Importantly introduction to the system becomes more intuitive (though perhaps overall may require more knowledge, it is more important to be easy to pick up hard to master then it is to be hard to pick up easy to master - for multiple reasons).

• Greater variety to materia

Materia can possess unique properties like abilities and passives as well as pertaining to lore in ways that the current system would deem improbable.

• Greater variety of materia patterns encouraged

If the slot “cost” system is used creating patterns of different materia would be encouraged. Also allowing a greater variety (ability/passive materia) into the materia system would encourage a variety.

• Reorganized RNG influence to reduce stress

No RNG, expectations are set through crafts and quests (monster hunting could prove unreliable RNG but the new token system might mean you can buy special materia from dungeon shops).

• Crafting gear may be powerful on its own without disturbing dungeon gear

Allowing dungeon gear to use materia means that crafting gear can now be created without having to weaken in (making crafting look cooler). Just have to make sure crafting recipes are in similar difficulty as a dungeon. (Large recipe material list and rare materials required, perhaps sometimes many jobs used).

• Going with the above, crafters ability will be refocused to making gear in their type – not being materia melders that can make “stuff”

A main point in 1.0 and probably in 2.0 for crafters to make gear actually strong is melding. So a large part of crafting powerful gear in each crafting job isn’t the craft itself but just melding (weaver != weaver but weaver that uses rocks).

• Greater stat allocations available to devs for gear in general

More things to make items unique like perhaps a rare dungeon item (or crafted) that has poor stats but has a hilarious slot count.

• Expanding will be easier

Whenever you want to add a new tier instead of back changing previous rates (so the tier XXX double meld isn’t .01%) you can just add the older tier materia to the monster loot list and then introduce new materia recipies.

• More similar to the roots of materia (also due to this has a nice potential to work greater materia into game lore)

FF7 – you didn’t break your cool rocks and even the rare special gear had slots, as well the materia often did cooler things then “+1 hp”. (Materia also had to do with world essence (mako), in FFXIV we call it aether)


Equipping, Repairs, and Removing

Equipping:a materia should be the easy. This is important to allow newer players into the system with minimal. It also means buying materia is less frustrating as once you buy the "product" you can use the product, not having to buy two other products and then find someone to do it for you. However one should recognize that in my suggested crafting system that low level players wont obtain their own crafted materia until they start crafting it - but I recommend a quest offering a few low level materia to introduce them into the system. Also could make your deity give you a free materia that perhaps becomes lore important later on (introduce players to rare/ex lore related materia right off).

Removing: obviously crafters can no longer meld materia which loses them a possible financial source. That I'm not so worried about as at least on my servers most did it for free. However materia swapping should be further considered strategical and less wanton. To push the point I would recommend removing materia in only two methods and an introduce to the overload system.

1. You destroy the item and the materia drops out of it
2. You find a materia crafter (npc or player) who can remove the materia (npc will charge, player may or may not)
3. (Added 11/17/2012) - If materia is thought to create a flood or new tiers are not going to be designed in intervals required by the system to prevent end tier stacking then change the removal to either unable to remove materia or that the npc and pc fees for removing materia is severely increased (should always allow U/U (special and or lore driven materia) an easier removal though.

Overload system [Repairs]

Another suggested feature beyond creating slot costs is to create an overload system. When you push an items melds to the cap you induce overload - items will break down faster (and will be required to be repaired more often). The feature I don't think is required for the greater benefit of materia but it would add greater consideration of how you set up your materia as well as creating greater/modified gil sink.

To reduce overloading you would use less materia - and perhaps materia crafters can learn special methods to install materia at a lesser overload cost (but isn't required to attatch materia).

Bonding Materia
Materia should have its own spirit bond level - this is a huge tip of the hat to FF7. Not is it suggested because of a nostagila reason but also to create a system that allows lore growth items (Deity materia that you carry from level 1 on (use by choice)) but also means a greater love and personal prefrence for particular materia.

The rate at which a materia spirit bounds will have be very carefully calculated to slightly under match.
Also not all materia has to grow - it can be a special group of materia that perhaps require more time but have unique leveling features. Materia that can't grow once spirit bound may offer more / better aether.

Crafting

While you could make a crafting sect. that doesnt require a particular crafting job. I highly recommend a new crafting job.

Because I found out houses will be so expensive that you will have to be level 50 first I dont recommend the crafting class require a stationary housed apparatus - though I encourage houses to have buyable rooms that greatly benefit a crafting class it was designated for (workshops if you will).

The materia is made by compressing aether often found from destructing adventures gear and capturing its essence. Different types of aethes can be found in gear based on the type of gear (slot, level, rarity) used and the strength of the adventurer (class?, level) and may also be found through natural occurring aether sources and materia itself (a form of condensed aether).

Taking this aether you compress it within a chamber with other materials including a variety of catalysts.

So now that spirit bonding gear turns the items into aether you no longer receive 1 materia per spirit bonded gear - which will reduce inflow. Furthermore using previous materia to upgrade to a new tier of materia may take a formula often in Diablo gems 3 gems = 1 new tier gem.



Here I recommend a differing or new crafting idea.

Projects

Projects dont have to be a materia crafter exclusive.

How projects work is that you start a synth with given materials and project able recipe. Once started you can work through the synth. If successful the project moves forward a stage, where you can work on it again after a given interval (for materia crafting this is in order to give the apparatus time to compress the aether till it combines and solidifies with the other materials - as materia would naturally be found from many years of natural compression).

A failure could lead to the failure of a synth (loss of one or a few elements) or just a delay in the project. Yoshida talked about making crafting in general fail less often - so this system would have to match whatever changes are being made to the other failing craft results.

Projects add a sense of commitment through time, that time also adds a sense of pride. Say an epic materia not only takes very special aether and materials but also takes a while to craft (depending on materia "a while" could vary greatly). For the most part I would say this project idea should be saved for great and epic recipes including relic like equivalents for other crafting classes like blacksmith.

Other foreseeable Issues (Some with this system some with either or)

Yoshida talked about making spirit bound gear untradeable - I assume he means that it can still be sold (MW/AH), this may be an annoyance (for either or system).

Now that gear turns into aether instead of a full fledged materia players will either have to have the ability to turn gear into aether themselves or will have to sell spirit bound gear on the AH (that means spirit bound gear must not be reset once sold). This will effect the market by making a unique demand for gear that has melds and also has a full bond.

This system introduces materia as a solid stand alone item - however crafters should gain new recipes and buffs to some old ones to ensure that the prices stay within a similar %. If not buffed correctly players may take their materia and -only- apply it to dungeon gear.

It is suggested on average to make dungeon gear have less slots - specially AF gear. This will allow AF gear and the like a little more life time but ensure players are not skipping crafted items which should stay competitive.

If materia tiers isnt introduced at interval or new gears the stock pile of materia may become unresonable - if so either increase the cost of removing materia or make it impossible to remove any materia but the U/U. (Suggested problem system)

Older draft here:

Past:
9/10/2012 - first draft layer
Future:
9/11-12/2012 - expect more clarity, examples and other edits

EDIT: Just got a dev post, so now I have a sexy crown on the thread XD I will update it again soon, just let me study for my school first :P. Will update in a day or so. (Dev post on page 7)

This is a draft I hope to get some comments on, I'll move it to the synth section once ready - or unless it gets so active here I'll just leave it here.. Also if you dont like reading please dont comment on anything, or at least just say tl;dr (and gtfo lol). I have taken in many considerations for this system and it may appear complicated but you have to understand most game design documents (about a system) even about very simple things are extremely fleshed out so there is no room for screw ups (this one isnt fleshed out :P).

The Different (Hopefully Better) Materia System

Preface:
This system is attempting to fix and or change the following things:
-Ease of getting materia (this proposed system will make materia harder to get, making them more valuable, yet this system will make materia consistent - if you attempt to get an int you will get an int, this will make all similar tier similar stat effecting materias the same price (no longer mind 5K and int 500K)
-Lack of importance of a singular materia but rather a commodity to be consumed (impersonality, basically you will actually value your materia as it sticks with you)
-Awkward gil busting sessions (making or breaking of items caues hatred to those lucky kids and frustration that you spent 10 more mil then they did - this will even the playing field and make materia an actual fair effort for everyone)

Most importantly this system will make war against legendary pain the random number generator (RNG).
And therefore destroy the frustrations that come with RNG, it will however take the lack of RNG into consideration and create a gilsink to prevent economic destabilization through devaluation.

-- A concern others have brought up I would like to address before they reach others posts and assume them to be true.. --
Feared idea: Other jobs will determent because of this system.

I assume this is in reference to other crafting jobs losing the ability to meld gear. However keep in mind while reading I haven't removed spirit bound gear, which is what keeps crafters selling particular items.

Also with this system the quality and quantity of essences from gear would relate to the quality of the item itself - so crafters can stop making just one gear over and over to sell. Instead they can sell all kinds as each person will have an idea of quality > price or price > quality.

I want to remove spirit bound gear, however until I can think of another system that keeps crafters a steady income it would be a bad idea to do so.

The major change to expect is materia becoming more personal, intricate, mobile, consistent, and the gear you want to wear being broke less - also including melding AF gear*. So economically materia prices may rise, but the price of double, triple, quadra, and penta melds would drop significantly (in most cases).
* Unique items logically would have less sockets then crafted items. As unique items have higher base stats. This again would make crafters still valuable - while also making your AF gear not guaranteed crap (in SE current system very few classes should be holding onto their AF gear once they get the money).
------

I find that breaking the gear, and the materia is like trying to go out for expensive china just to then smash it on the ground. Extremely bothersome in my opinion. The system below will not make materia (I hope) a dime a dozen, and it will also make materia you have made special to you (as you take it with you as you level). However the price on "double melds" and more would greatly be reduced in this system - something more like cost of equipment + cost of materia. No longer + random 10000% price inflation. Therefore the change should happen before 2.0's release, so less people are pissed that they lost their "possible" profits.

To get in the right mindset, if you have previously played FFVII (7) then put that game in your mind. If not, this will seem like a wild unbased suggestion... so hold on … I guess?

System:
Firstly, you can no longer break equipment by melding* materia to that item.
Secondly, each piece of equipment will have a set number of slots – this will make gear easier to balance and you can then allow rare, and rare ex items to last longer in their usefulness by letting them have materia (craftable items will thusly have an average of more slots then dungeon finds – but a lower base stat, dungeon items have a lower slot count but higher base stats (on average)).
*We should also probably not use the word meld, in the case of this system.. :P

How to get materia:
Materia will no longer spawn from spirit bound gear – however essences of the gear will be taken from gear that has been spirit bound. These essences may be melded together with a catalyst to MAKE a materia (a process of compounding and compressing while mixing in different environments and ingredients). However, materia –may- drop from monsters who already made them which may have different values then player made ones as they are made from unknown processes, and or are found (meaning made over long long periods of time - Gaia materia rather then synthesized materia). Rare, and Rare EX materia’s ? Yes.

How to place materia:
Just put it into the equipment. Materia will grow as you gain experience, after reaching its cap exp it will gain a bonus to its stats and will also become a better ingredient in another synth (yes using a materia, a catalyst, and some ingredients, this would make an easy recipe to make HQ and higher tier materias).

Crafting of materia:
This calls for a new crafting class, awww yeah. Unlike other crafting classes however materia will take time to craft – that is… Literally your recipe will be over a period of time. Much like gardening in FF11 took time. When beginning a craft you would take a catalyst – something that the essence can bind to (different essences would work differently, and or better with different catalysts). Once you have started the synth this would begin a project.

I would greatly prefer theses projects are conducted in our mog houses coming in 2.0 – that way they are physically placed down in the environment where you can watch and come back to your project (I imagine something like the metriod’s are contained in the cylinder machine – or some container you can look into).

When you begin your project you can set its environment (temperatures, and liquids that it is submersed in) – applying the settings successfully would require a craft/gathering like minigame (getting you exp which would grant you abilities and better control over settings). After initiated you can come back at whatever intervals you choose** – however giving the project time to work naturally will increase the quality of the synth*.

For example if you work tirelessly right from the start you will lock out certain qualities of materia from forcing the process (and may even fail if you force it too much and are not a high enough level)*. However also waiting too long (past its golden time) would also reduce quality and may lock out certain tiers or materias (this is to prevent players having to synth for too long of a time – and making a weird economy)*. **

Notes:
*While I said synthing too fast will lock out some possible materias I would also recommend that some materias become available only when you synth fast.
** All of the quality, past applications on the project should be easily available so tracking the project is not guess work. I repeat, not guess work – if you have experience you should know what you will get.

You can discover recipes by yourself or learn them from NPCs. Recipes would work by telling you what catalyst and what ingredients to use and when – thus creating a consistent way to create particular materias.

The time windows (the interval to check) should be consistent and easy to figure out. Also while I know many wouldn’t jump on this idea – I think your projects (if they are in the mog house) should be able to be checked and modified through an official app (online and for smart phones). That way you can easily work on your project and not feel entirely bound to log into the client just for 5 seconds.

Some possible Materials:
Catalysts, other materias, complex apparatuses (blacksmith, goldsmith can work together to make these devices), liquids for incubation (alchemy), ingredients (essences from spirit bound and collected gear, and perhaps other ingredients found in the wild or crafted).

-The above is to prevent an intense surplus of materia, keeping materia cool and to make solo materia finding less stressful (Random Number Generator is mean npc..). Again would like to mention you can make your own materia (and following a recipie you would know which one you will get (besides HQ, no to very little randomness)) and you may also find materia's off monsters like coblyns, humanoids and special ones off some bosses.

Note:
Below posts may still be relevant in their opinion but were based off of an old draft that is hidden within the hidden tags above. Please make new posts instead of quoting old ones (unless you want to modify your own personal old post).

[AmyNeudaiz]

I'd just wait to see what they do in the 2.0 alpha then offer feedback. Posting this suggestion and expecting any change now would be like asking a train to stop on a dime.

I read most of it and it looks more interesting than what we have now so I'll give it that.

[rina_inverse]

seems like some complicated method just to get ++stats
and a whole new class just to meld materia?
yea, more chore to do yay

[Shougun]

seems like some complicated method just to get ++stats
and a whole new class just to meld materia?
yea, more chore to do yay

The system as it is now requires you to go get some gear, break the gear, have a chance to get something you dont know what, go find someone with a crafting job 40+ FOR THAT PARTICULAR ITEM, give them the items, have a chance for the meld to fail, it will probably fail so do all of the above again.

The above system:
To use materia: put it in your gear - when you are done take it out of your gear (keeping the materia).
To make materia: do it like a synth from ONE JOB.

I have a hard time to see how mine is much more complex then it is now. I'd argue over time mine is much LESS complex.

That being said, you can say you dont like the system I offered lol. Just actually read mine and really compare it to the current one. The current system is a much bigger chore.

[Chardrizard]

There arent as many pros in this system compare to current materia system, i am going to say no. I wont go much further since this kind of thread has been posted few times, but current materia system benefits everyone and every single class, your proposed idea doesn't. So, i am still leaning towards the current system.

[Shougun]

There arent as many pros in this system compare to current materia system, i am going to say no. I wont go much further since this kind of thread has been posted few times, but current materia system benefits everyone and every single class, your proposed idea doesn't. So, i am still leaning towards the current system.

Ok tell me how it doesn't benefit all classes? Maybe I can change that easily.

[rina_inverse]

yep thats true
but the point of current system is you only need one craft class to do anything. adding another craft class seems like adding another step in melding

besides, overhauling current system will a huge task for DEV
not only DEV, scenario system have to think about the lore that already implemented, the lore that will be implemented, and the lore to bridge both lore
seems like youre too late couple patch for this

[rina_inverse]

stop ninja'ing your post lol

[Shougun]

yep thats true
but the point of current system is you only need one craft class to do anything. adding another craft class seems like adding another step in melding

besides, overhauling current system will a huge task for DEV
not only DEV, scenario system have to think about the lore that already implemented, the lore that will be implemented, and the lore to bridge both lore
seems like youre too late couple patch for this

Yeah you need one class, but you need one class for each different piece. I think your sentence is maybe miss written. Because my system you only need one class to do anything, not the current system. And even then you dont really need that class - if you got a materia from a quest you could use it right away in my system without finding someone.

When I first got a piece of materia I tried to equip it, much to my dismay I needed to find a crafter before I could even use it. That was and still is extremely disappointing.

Oh and yeah.. defintely a lot of work on the dev team. But the dev team is looking for feedback/suggestions - and they need more classes for people to level. They may love my idea - or hate it.. but who knows till I write it.

However I feel my system is to solve the impersonality and pain in the assness of the current system. Materia currently is like looking at a bowl of gold fish... quite boring and common. And melding gear is as I already described - an obvious money sync with very little gameplay value. It is also creating weird imbalances I've already seen some quad meld IV materias on people 50+ inteligence.. Sockets would stop unreasonable growth - the longer the current sytem is in place the weirder the gear is going to get. Also once they add new gear that makes their tier 4 quad meld useless... such disappointment will happen. The current materia system is not maintainable. Maybe mine isnt either, but a new one will need to be put forward.

stop ninja'ing your post lol

I Ninja when I want! lol

[rina_inverse]

Yeah you need one class, but you need one class for each different piece. I think your sentence is maybe miss written. Because my system you only need one class to do anything, not the current system.

Exactly. Only one class. you also need another class to craft the gear, but that totally ruin the purpose

Oh and yeah.. defintely a lot of work on the dev team. But the dev team is looking for feedback - and they need more classes for people to level. They may love my idea - or hate it.. but who knows till I write it.

not only on DEV, the whole team. remember that current materia system has been implemented patches ago. changing that will be not as simple as deleting one table from the database, you have to create a new lore for this new system. ypu have to create a new lore to delete the old system. you have to create a new lore to bridging both lore. not to mention all of those already augmented gear, or all materia in ward. I suppose you want them to vanish over night?
way to make the game rage

However I feel my system is to solve the impersonality and pain in the assness of the current system. Materia currently is like look at a bowl of gold fish... quite boring and common. And melding gear is as I already described - an obvious money sync with very little gameplay value. It is also creating weird imbalances I've already seen some quad meld IV materias on people 50+ inteligence.. Sockets would stop unreasonable growth - the longer this sytem is in place the weirder the gear is going to get. Also once they add new gear that makes their tier 4 quad meld useless... such disappointment will happen.

so what? new content is bond to happen. you cant avoid that
I dunno if you wanna stuck in this limbo forever, but I wanna move on.