Why the +/- Enmity stat needs to be abolished

[AmyNeudaiz]

I think it's fine how it is.
No wall of text, just my simple opinion.

[yukikaze_yanagi]

No, it's not the same. Yes, you will cap out on ACC, but the tank will in fact never cap out on +Enmity. This is because your ACC needs are based on the enemy you're fighting while the tank's +Enmity need is based on the gear level of the DDs. The enemy's stats do not change, the DDs' stats do.


Yes, and now you're in a rather unpleasant situation. If your full +Enmity set makes you too weak to survive, yet you find it necessary to keep up with DD enmity output, you've effectively capped DD progression. Even if the DDs outfit themselves with better gear, they will not be able to utilize it and will have to hold back because the tank can't keep up. The only way the tank would be able to keep up and allow the DDs to use their new gear would be to wear more +Enmity, but if he does that, he will not survive, so it's not an option.


WoW had (I guess still has) the most competitive MMO PVP scene ever and many times it was correct to wear PVE items to PVP. Likewise, the best PVP sets were often very good (though not the absolute best) for PVE.


There is no content in FFXIV where you'd want to give the tank a couple mins as you're always penalized for doing so. Besides, that's just another way of capping DD progression. If your DDs can't go all out from the get go to shave as many seconds from the fight as possible, what's the point of getting better gear for them? You'd just have to wait even longer for the tank to establish enough of a head start.

you keep saying this, but it's wrong. There is no "cap" to enmity, because effect of enmity+ gear is percentage, not linear, differently from attack and accuracy. You don't need full enmity in every case. Balance it like a dd would do.
Also, tanks progress on gear too so you're point is futile. Since tanks don't rely entirely on flash and provoke to keep hate, but damage, they keep up with melee naturally every time they switch to a better weapon/gear.
also, LOL at wow as the most competitive pvp experience ever. the most unbalanced pvp experience ever maybe. Not a good comparison

[NickZenith]

When adding enmity you hardly sacrifice any survivability. Weapon and waist are the meldable slots, hardly a sacrifice for a large boost. Stonewall earrings(no loss), coral wristband+1(lose 60hp instead of raptotskin+1). You can add plenty of enmity while losing negligible survivability. Its fine as is.

[Frein]

you keep saying this, but it's wrong. There is no "cap" to enmity, because effect of enmity+ gear is percentage, not linear, differently from attack and accuracy. You don't need full enmity in every case. Balance it like a dd would do.
Also, tanks progress on gear too so you're point is futile. Since tanks don't rely entirely on flash and provoke to keep hate, but damage, they keep up with melee naturally every time they switch to a better weapon/gear.
also, LOL at wow as the most competitive pvp experience ever. the most unbalanced pvp experience ever maybe. Not a good comparison

I'm not sure if I should keep replying to you as you seem unable to fully understand my posts. I'll give it one more shot.

When I speak of an enmity "cap", I mean enough enmity to allow the DDs to go as all out as is reasonable for the encounter, at which point additional enmity no longer does anything for you. Also, the difference between tank and DD damage output only increases as gear level improves because not only do DDs get more out of their weapons, they also benefit from non-weapon upgrades while tanks typically do not gain much damage output from their armour.

As far as PVP in WoW goes, it's the only MMO that ever had an e-sports scene appear around it. Think what you will of its PVP balance, but no other game achieved that and as a consequence the level of competition was much higher than anywhere else.

When adding enmity you hardly sacrifice any survivability. Weapon and waist are the meldable slots, hardly a sacrifice for a large boost. Stonewall earrings(no loss), coral wristband+1(lose 60hp instead of raptotskin+1). You can add plenty of enmity while losing negligible survivability. Its fine as is.

Last time I checked you can get a ton of extra HP from waist melds. The same goes for the wristband you mentioned. In any case, in non-melded items (I'm looking at you, Darklight), a large chunk of the item's stat budget is used on +Enmity. What if that +25 Enmity on Darklight Flanchard was, say, an extra +50 HP and +15 VIT instead? It's hardly a trivial sacrifice and it's going to go up for as long as there are gear upgrades added to the game.

You can't just look at the current situation and assume the underlying mechanics are fine because they aren't breaking the game right now. You have to look at the fundamentals and how they scale with future content or you'll be stuck doing stat overhauls every year, and nobody wants that.

[NickZenith]

Heavy Darklight Flanchard also provides 12 vit, and 140hp. There are few logical options that surpass the Hp gain there.

[yukikaze_yanagi]

waist melds hardly give "tons" of hp without double+ melding tier 4 materia (and btw, nobody said it's mandatory melding enmity+ on waist). Personally i got enmity+ and hp on my belt.And equipping both hp and enmity i still manage to reach 4k+ hp on my paladin with food and party bonus

Heavy Darklight Flanchard also provides 12 vit, and 140hp. There are few logical options that surpass the Hp gain there.

what he said...i'm starting to doubt your good will

Bw, let's assume they change the game like you ask: let's say vit now modify hate generated by flash like 10 vit = 1% more hate. What's the benefit, since hate is largely based on damage inflicted ? You can't hold hate only with flash and provoke
Change enmity modifier to str ? Then every dd will generate more enmity, and they'll surpass tank very easily (str it's the main focus of every dd)
Every other stat it's pointless hp-speaking, so they're useless. Then..what will be different as now ?

[HiirNoivl]

1) Tanks are forced to choose between survival, or "tankyness", and the ability to hold hate. I don't think this is a choice most players particularly like to make. Currently all content favours focusing on holding hate because rewards are based on speed (AV, CC), defense isn't needed (Ifrit, Moogle), or because slow and steady makes things harder, not easier (Garuda).

Yes this is true... but I'm not understanding why this is necessarily bad. It just means that defense and HP is shifted onto the WHMs who cure and buff the tank. The tank stacks Touch of Rage to better do it's job, however, at the end of the day, enmity control is the responsiblity of the entire party not just the tank.

2) +/- Enmity does nothing at all in PVP or other potential future content where hate mechanics are suppressed (such as a boss that completely ignores enmity).

I agree with the future of hate mechanics is more varied than just taunts and provokes, but I don't think there will be a time when enmity + on tank will be pointless or ignored. After all, even if Miser Mistress ignores the tank to take a bath, it doesn't mean that the tank doesn't have to keep hate.

3) As tank gear progression is split between survivability and increased enmity generation, in the long run tank enmity probably cannot keep up with DD gear progression anyway, as for them the sole purpose of every upgrade is to further increase damage output.

Here's something I agree with whole heartedly. We have enimity +30, +40...... +100? Why not make enmity a trait or an attribute of the GLD/PLD Class instead of a stat on gear.

I would propose that abilities like Flash and Provoke scale based on one or more defensive stats, like Defense or their primary and secondary attributes. That way tanks can focus on simply being tanks. This would be similar to how WoW solves the problem.

Ouch hit a third rail there. I started tanking in FFXIV so I don't know how people do it in other games.

[yukikaze_yanagi]

cut

i'll respond only to 3° and 4° question:

-as i said, tanks progress in gear like dd, so even balancing hp with enmity, they just need to keep improving to do their jobs. Don't forget dd too need to focus on balance for str and accuracy (which DON'T add damaging capabilities). Tiering enmity to a trait could be a solution, but that way can't be improved without obtaining a superior version of that trait (aka leveling. And after you reached cap? )

-using the same game Op speak...they don't do anything. in Wow tanks don't have any enmity+ association with stats. They keep hate only via damage, using often skills which generate more hate than another and augmenting such skills via skill three

[HiirNoivl]

Tiering enmity to a trait could be a solution, but that way can't be improved without obtaining a superior version of that trait (aka leveling. And after you reached cap? )

Putting enmity to a trait would separate it from a stat. Say it's a trait that enhaces a combo. So a PLD that pulls of a specific combo would have hate on that mob. Since no other member of the party (unless there are multiple PLDs) has the trait no one could pull hate unless the PLD dies. It wouldn't scale at all. Tanks could just concentrate on not taking too much damage with defensive skills and not have to worry about hate at all. Neither would the rest of the party.

[yukikaze_yanagi]

Yeah, an iTank button. Hell, no