Pipe Dreams: Gladiators, Paladins and Dark Knights

[Duelle]

Hosted by Duelle Urelle

I've been looking at the threads about PLD, DRK, GLA and where PLD stands in the whole bi-partisan bit between themselves and WARs. Most of the discussions focus on some items that have been accepted as pivotal points of the discussion.

Paladins are seen as inferior tanks than WARs between DPS, survivability and ease (or difficulty) of enmity generation. What I plan to do with this post is look at GLA design, PLD design and try to make changes that allow PLD to be a little better at their job while giving GLA the leeway it needs to spread out (that and I like the idea of GLA being able to go PLD or DRK depending on what you're looking to do).

I. Gladiator

For a class that is supposed to be flexible, GLA is kind of boned in terms of design because it is being hammered into a tank-like role between ability spread and DPS. Of course, the focus on the word Gladiator and what it means in the west is kind of moot, since in the JP version the class is called Kenjutsushi (剣術士), or Swordsman. As such, the class should really be about the way of the sword in terms of raw combat. Thus, it would be better to shift the class down to the middle way, allow the abilities set from other classes to help decide the role and go from there. To solidify yourself into one specific role, you could then switch to a job.

Ia. Class Run Down - Daggers have been taken away from GLA and replaced with great swords. Great sword GLAs have the chance to graze incoming attacks, mitigating a portion of incoming damage. Due to GLA-native dodge rating being relatively low, grazing is more for self-preservation rather than a tank-like focus. Only direct attacks and physical AoE's can be grazed. New/changed abilities are in blue.

Ib. Abilities

1 Fast Blade

2 Rampart

4 Phalanx

6 Defensive Focus: Guarantees one shield block if equipping a shield, or one graze if equipping a great sword.

10 Savage Blade

14 Spinning Slash: Swing your weapon fiercely, dealing damage to nearby targets.

18 Shield Bash

22 Outmaneuver: Slightly increases block rate when equipping a shield. Slightly increases chance of grazing when equipping a great sword.

26 Flat Blade

30 Riot Blade

34 Sentinel: Moved down.

38 War Drum

42 Tempered Will

46 Rage of Halone

50 Goring Blade

Ic. Traits

8 Enhanced Physical Defense

12 Enhanced Rampart

16 Enhanced Physical Attack Power

20 Swift Defensive Focus: Reduces recast of Defensive Focus by 15 seconds.

24 Sword & Board: Occasionally attack with your shield.

28 Enhanced Flat Blade: when using a great sword, Flat Blade can interrupt spellcasting.

32 Enhanced Physical Crit Resilience

36 Enhanced Sentinel

40 Swift War Drum: Reduces the recast of War Drum by 25 seconds.

44 Enhanced Outmaneuver: Shield Blocks made while Outmaneuver is active restore MP. Grazes made while Outmaneuver is active grant TP.

48 (Tentative) Hilt Strike: 5% chance of striking an enemy with the hilt of your great sword before attacking them. Can only proc during auto-attacks.

II. Transition into Jobs

As evident above, Flash was taken away from GLA, the numerous defensive traits have been trimmed down and replaced with some offensive-oriented traits. Because of this, the meat of the roles chosen by the player will be part of the jobs available to the class. In this case, if the player wants to go full tank they will have to switch to PLD. Likewise, if they want to go full DPS they'll have to go DRK.

To give ourselves a starting point, what I propose is that aside from the five abilities gained when switching to a job, we also earn five traits relevant to the job in question.

IIa. Paladin

We seem to have lost sight of how Paladins normally work. Firstly because the devs have tried to copy the player-invented model from FFXI where the paladin would heal themselves in order to generate enmity by introducing things like Holy Succor and such. Emphasis should switch to and build on defense, while keeping in mind that tank enmity comes in part from DPS, and it is as important as enmity from abilities.

Abilities

30 Cover: Toggle effect. Protects one target party member until deactivated, reducing damage taken by that party member by 5% and transferring 10% of the enmity generated by that party member to you.

35 Flash: Generates large enmity on target and all enemies around it. Has a high chance to inflict blind. Costs 180 MP.

40 Holy Succor: Instant-cast self heal. 45-second cooldown.

45 Spirits Within

50 Hallowed Ground: Reduces all damage taken by 90%. 20 second duration.

Traits

30 Armor Mastery: Increases physical defense by 22.

35 Shining Armor: Grants an enmity bonus to all actions and attacks.

40 Divine Veil: Healing spells cast on you by other players give you 10% of the MP cost of the spell. (Example: A WHM casts a Cure spell that costs 200 MP. You gain 20 MP as a result.)

45 Shield Mastery: Greatly increases shield block chance gained from Outmaneuver.

50 Aegis Boon: Attacks blocked while Defensive Focus is active will restore HP based on the amount blocked.

I'm of the opinion that putting off-healing on a tank is a very bad idea. The tank already has enough to worry about to have to deal with doing part of the healing for his group. Thus, Holy Succor was changed into a semi-survivability cooldown. The MP dumps for PLD would therefore be cures if you want to do that in combat and Flash. I was also thinking of removing Hallowed Ground from the list of gained abilities and replacing it with Judgment Blade (yes, the one from Final Fantasy Tactics), but I couldn't think of a way to justify removing Hallowed Ground aside from creating a brand new category for moves like it. Instead, I opted for making it effective 90% mitigation rather than "immune to most attacks".

IIb. Dark Knight

Not much to say here. Darkness-based damage dealer with a big sword. Some drains, and has potential to play nicely with abilities gained from MRD and DRG (which I suggest be the two sub-classes for DRK). DRK would be using stuff like Riot Blade => Rage of Halone => Dark Slash, as well as Fast Blade => Savage Blade => Goring Blade.

Abilities

30 Dark Slash: Sacrifice HP to attack your opponent with a heavy slash, dealing physical damage and additional dark damage.

35 Umbral Symbiosis: Lowers target's Attack and Magic Attack by 3% and increases your Attack and Magic Attack by 3%. Costs 200 MP.

40 Night Slash: Drains TP from up to three targets in front of you. 400 MP cost. 20 second cooldown.

45 Asphyxiate: Interrupts spell-casting. 20-yalm range. 3 minute cooldown.

50 Last Resort: Your next three weapon skills consume HP in addition to their normal costs for additional darkness damage.

Traits

30 Great Sword Mastery: Increases attack power by 22.

35 Vampiric Blade: Attacks grazed while Defensive Focus is active will grant your next weapon skill the ability to absorb part of the damage dealt as HP and MP. Does not stack with Bloodbath.

40 Dark Osmosis: Using Night Slash on more than one target grants you a Regain (TP gain over time) effect for 10 seconds.

45 Bloodletter: Target takes additional damage from your attacks while under the effect of Goring Blade's bleed effect.

50 Serrated Blade: Doubles the bleed effect duration from Goring Blade.

My take on this is spike damage combined with some drains and emphasis on darkness-based damage. I also tried to play into the drain theme we got used to in FFXI but with less reliance on magic and more on abilities and attacks. Things like Umbral Symbiosis would requite the DRK to stay near the target at all times to benefit. What I'm not sure of is if US should be a toggle that consumes MP or TP, or whether it should be a debuff that the DRK should try to keep up as much as they can on the mob.

Questions, comments, flames, death threats and so on are welcome.

[SwordCoheir]

Questions, comments, flames, death threats and so on are welcome.

LUL WHAT A NUB! UR DOING IT WRONG!1!1!1!1 :P

Looks pretty good Duelle, if I had to really complain about something it would be Dark Osmosis though. No job should have a trait that focuses on a cross class ability, otherwise it would just be dead weight if said cross class ability is not equipped. Maybe instead make Dark Osmosis a trait that boosts the effect of Dark Blades TP drain, reduces Dark Blades MP cost, or allows Dark Blade to drain MP as well.

[Duelle]

No job should have a trait that focuses on a cross class ability, otherwise it would just be dead weight if said cross class ability is not equipped. Maybe instead make Dark Osmosis a trait that boosts the effect of Dark Blades TP drain, reduces Dark Blades MP cost, or allows Dark Blade to drain MP as well.

This is a fair point. I just wanted to see the reactions to having a job being able to use a cross-class ability in a way its parent class cannot. It sort of borrows from how I see a Red Mage operating (Fire from a BLM would be different than Fire from a RDM, as the RDM is a melee mage while the BLM is a ranged caster, for example), and hoped we could give jobs a little bit of workable uniqueness through application of what they borrow. That being said, how about this:

Dark Osmosis: Using Night Slash on more than one target grants you a Regain (TP gain over time) effect for 10 seconds.

[SwordCoheir]

Sounds good.

[lshumaker]

A few comments:

1. with this set up GLAs will be missing 2 of their traits at a time, other classes don't have this issue
2. your version of Hallowed Ground is weak for a 15 min recast. Sentinel is a 50% damage reduction with increased enmity generated for 20 seconds on a 1.5 min recast. So, I prefer the version of Hallowed Ground we have now.
3. I don't think GLA will be getting DRK, due to GLA abilities and they might follow the FFXI route and give DRK to a scythe class.

[Duelle]

A few comments:

1. with this set up GLAs will be missing 2 of their traits at a time, other classes don't have this issue

Which ones? The defense traits I've combined into Armor Mastery. The Flash traits I just rolled into Flash, which would then be a Paladin ability rather than a gladiator ability.

2. your version of Hallowed Ground is weak for a 15 min recast. Sentinel is a 50% damage reduction with increased enmity generated for 20 seconds on a 1.5 min recast. So, I prefer the version of Hallowed Ground we have now.

Cooldown is moot. An ability that makes you immune to damage is overpowered not matter how you slice it. We're not going to feel it now, but we will feel it somewhere down the road. Take it from me, who has had to deal with damage immunity holding back my favorite class on several occassions, and always being a point against my favorite class whenever I asked for buffs for said class.

3. I don't think GLA will be getting DRK, due to GLA abilities and they might follow the FFXI route and give DRK to a scythe class.

The ability spread for GLA is close to even. I just gave it that proverbial kick in the rear it needed to accomodate great sword. That and I hate the downsides scythe had.

[lshumaker]

Which ones? The defense traits I've combined into Armor Mastery. The Flash traits I just rolled into Flash, which would then be a Paladin ability rather than a gladiator ability.
Cooldown is moot. An ability that makes you immune to damage is overpowered not matter how you slice it. We're not going to feel it now, but we will feel it somewhere down the road. Take it from me, who has had to deal with damage immunity holding back my favorite class on several occassions, and always being a point against my favorite class whenever I asked for buffs for said class.
The ability spread for GLA is close to even. I just gave it that proverbial kick in the rear it needed to accomodate great sword. That and I hate the downsides scythe had.

1. I was talking about having 2 great sword exclusive traits and 2 shield exclusive traits. From what I can remember, other classes don't have said issue with having to choose between which traits they want. However, if those traits did something for both shield and great sword users then I would have no problem with them.

2. The current Aegis Boon also makes you immune to damage. PLD is my favorite job as well; it's just that I feel most people would wine about sentinel being better than a 15 min move for your version of Hallowed Ground. And I guess we will agree to disagree on being immune to damage is overpowered. Though, I can see how the dev team might be nervous about any fixes to PLD because of the current Hallowed Ground. Maybe if you increased the buff length on your Hallowed Ground it wouldn't be so bad. At least make it last as long as sentinel.

3. I just said that because I feel that most people are more familiar with the FFXI DRK than DRK of the past. I know I don't speak for those people, it's just that I see more DRK posts relate to coming from a scythe class. I felt that Spellblade and RDM would be better for GLA (in its current build) than DRK.
4. I just noticed this, but you might want to change phalanx and war drum to come from block and graze.

5. I don't think flash should have a cost. People already complain about MP issues when not equipping the AF body.

6. I know this is small, but do we really need graze? It's just blocking with a weapon (great sword), which by definition is a parry. So, can't we just call it a parry instead?

Sorry if I sound hostile, I don't mean too.

Edit: Added spaces.

[KoujiGeki]

looks good. but will SE take the pointers? most likly not since everyones been bitching about what pld needs and SE wont even take it into consideration.

[Duelle]

1. I was talking about having 2 great sword exclusive traits and 2 shield exclusive traits. From what I can remember, other classes don't have said issue with having to choose between which traits they want. However, if those traits did something for both shield and great sword users then I would have no problem with them.

Well, this was made under the assumption that class design is currently very one-dimensional. My suggested reshuffle of GLA basically spells out "you can go sword&board or use a G-sword in this class, and if you want to become really good at either, you can switch to their respective jobs". Think of it as my way of saying that class design does need improvements and a little more openness.

2. The current Aegis Boon also makes you immune to damage. PLD is my favorite job as well; it's just that I feel most people would wine about sentinel being better than a 15 min move for your version of Hallowed Ground. And I guess we will agree to disagree on being immune to damage is overpowered. Though, I can see how the dev team might be nervous about any fixes to PLD because of the current Hallowed Ground. Maybe if you increased the buff length on your Hallowed Ground it wouldn't be so bad. At least make it last as long as sentinel.

Well, the intent is to make Hallowed Ground a defensive cooldown. The kind of "oh shit!" button you'd need during heavy damage phases. I will admit that this does not mix with the dev's intention to give everyone a 15-minute cooldown ability, but at the same time I disagree with the notion of every job having a 15-minute cooldown for the same reason 2 hour abilities in FFXI were hit or miss. Some were just plainly a lot more useful than others.

On damage immunities: A trauma I carried over from WoW was being told every time I asked for paladin fixes or buffs the reply from the developers was "well, we can't give you that because you can make yourself immune to all damage for 12 seconds with Divine Shield", while the community would reply "GTFO plat3 bubbl3 he4lz iz OP l0lz".

Most of us would then say "Okay, then take away Divine Shield or nerf it to be damage reduction instead of damage immunity", and Blizzard would reply "We can't do that because then it doesn't work like intended". Damage immunities = catch 22 when it comes to class design.

3. I just said that because I feel that most people are more familiar with the FFXI DRK than DRK of the past. I know I don't speak for those people, it's just that I see more DRK posts relate to coming from a scythe class. I felt that Spellblade and RDM would be better for GLA (in its current build) than DRK.

I'm of the opinion Fencer would need to be implemented for RDM to make sense.

4. I just noticed this, but you might want to change phalanx and war drum to come from block and graze.

The reason I didn't allow grazes to trigger Phalanx and War Drum is because if you're going G-Sword, you're not going to focus on tanking.

5. I don't think flash should have a cost. People already complain about MP issues when not equipping the AF body.

The reason for this is because I'm de-emphasizing cures by making Holy Succor a survivability cooldown (instant self heal), but PLD would need something else to spend its MP on. You can still cure others if you want by setting Cure from CON on your action bar.

6. I know this is small, but do we really need graze? It's just blocking with a weapon (great sword), which by definition is a parry. So, can't we just call it a parry instead?

Not really. Grazes are partial dodges. Something that you try to evade, it still hits you but not for the amount it would head-on.

[lshumaker]

Well, this was made under the assumption that class design is currently very one-dimensional. My suggested reshuffle of GLA basically spells out "you can go sword&board or use a G-sword in this class, and if you want to become really good at either, you can switch to their respective jobs". Think of it as my way of saying that class design does need improvements and a little more openness.
Well, the intent is to make Hallowed Ground a defensive cooldown. The kind of "oh shit!" button you'd need during heavy damage phases. I will admit that this does not mix with the dev's intention to give everyone a 15-minute cooldown ability, but at the same time I disagree with the notion of every job having a 15-minute cooldown for the same reason 2 hour abilities in FFXI were hit or miss. Some were just plainly a lot more useful than others.

On damage immunities: A trauma I carried over from WoW was being told every time I asked for paladin fixes or buffs the reply from the developers was "well, we can't give you that because you can make yourself immune to all damage for 12 seconds with Divine Shield", while the community would reply "GTFO plat3 bubbl3 he4lz iz OP l0lz".

Most of us would then say "Okay, then take away Divine Shield or nerf it to be damage reduction instead of damage immunity", and Blizzard would reply "We can't do that because then it doesn't work like intended". Damage immunities = catch 22 when it comes to class design.
I'm of the opinion Fencer would need to be implemented for RDM to make sense.
The reason I didn't allow grazes to trigger Phalanx and War Drum is because if you're going G-Sword, you're not going to focus on tanking.
The reason for this is because I'm de-emphasizing cures by making Holy Succor a survivability cooldown (instant self heal), but PLD would need something else to spend its MP on. You can still cure others if you want by setting Cure from CON on your action bar.
Not really. Grazes are partial dodges. Something that you try to evade, it still hits you but not for the amount it would head-on.

1. I'll address point 4 here as well. If you think that, then the class should only have traits and abilities that all of its jobs can utilize. DRKs are going to QQ that they have 2 dead abilities (phalanx and war drum) as well as 2 dead traits (your shield traits). PLDs would QQ about having 2 dead traits (your great sword traits). The great sword traits should be moved to DRK, the shield abilities (phalanx and war drum) along with the shield traits should be moved to PLD, and those 4 traits and 2 abilities should be replaced on GLA with ones that would benefit both PLD and DRK. We are getting a level cap increase sometime (Yoshi-P has said he wants to increase it at regular intervals rather than wait for a long time like 11 did), so don't have to keep it as we have now.

2. You're comparing two completely different games and gaming companies here. In WoW, far more attacks are made in 12 secs than in 20 secs for FFXIV. Also, the community here feels that PLD is underpowered, where in WoW the community felt (as you've said) that PLD was OP. Also, recast is not moot based on your comment about 2-hr abilities from 11. And I don't think WoW ever had an ability that had a recast of longer than 10 mins let alone 5. I also believe that blizzard was just taking the lazy route using an immunity ability as an excuse to do nothing.

3. Why, all rapiers are swords after all. Though not all swords are rapiers.

4. addressed in 1.

5. I would change the wording on Flash to something like "Generates large enmity on target and all enemies around it. Has a high chance to inflict blind." I say this because the AoE enmity is the major point of Flash for PLDs to AoE tank.

6. Makes better sense now thank you.