Pipe Dreams: Gladiators, Paladins and Dark Knights

[Onisake]

The reason I called that part of your post apples and oranges is because FFXI's problem with useless spells and WS has nothing to do with a design approach where you have multiple classes sprouting from a "base" class. Spells and weaponskills being useless due to bad design is vastly different from a guy going the two-hander route and not being able to use shield skills because his focus is on two-handed weapons.

Bad design is having features that are usable. I agree with this. but there is a difference between bad design, and bad scalability. many of the spells/WSs in FFXI were not useful because of scaling. not because of poor design. scalability can be fixed with some number tweaks and formula adjustment. bad design must be fixed with a complete overhaul. see the difference?

Poor design is intentially making half of an ability roster unusable. this is becoming a pre-rational discussion. i'm not going to bring this up again.

you're refusing to budge and see reason. and you're not putting any reason behind your argument to convince me that your way makes sense.

I disagree, but I'm focusing on the concept of GLA being about sword combat, one and two-handed. This is something I mentioned in the OP.

The key there was you wanted to gear DRK as a DD class. without major, major revamp a DD class cannot spawn from GLA. it just will not work. it will not be able to compete with the other DD classes. this is my argument.

MRD doesn't fit the aesthetic. Introducing scythe just so that DRK doesn't look weird with a great axe is more of a pain in the long run than adjusting GLA back to middle of the road combat, especially seeing the intent behind the jobs and the fact it would give GLA the opportunity to sprout additional jobs. Hell, DRK has historically been about big swords and darkness damage, and I would want to keep it as such.

who says it has to be scythe? maybe DRK gets to dual wield one handed axes.

GLA can already sprout additional jobs. you just have to be more clever about execution. . . and not try to make a DD class out of it when it's current abilities clearly do not support this.

if you want to have a class that can both tank and DD, you need to give it abilities that will support both roles.

PLD can benefit from every ability you've suggested. DRK can only benefit from half of the abilities you suggested. this is imbalanced and needs to be addressed.

And please keep RDM out of this.

that's my choice. you can always ignore it. rdm can spawn from GLA. it's viable. give it access CNJ and THM abilities and it fits rdm very well. traditionally and practically, the class that could spawn rdm the easiest is GLA.

I'm all for adding more classes. but would could a fencing class really add that GLA cannot? both are single-handed sword classes. GLAs main problem right now is that half it's abilities are tied to shield. give a dual purpose to these abilities and BAMF in one fell swoop the problem is fixed. at this point you can tie any single-handed melee class to GLA.

but, keeping in the interest of sword combat: the most viable path forward is to change the nature of shield abilities when a 2handed weapon is equipped to compensate for the lack of a shield.

IMO, the best way to do this is as i stated in my earlier post.

Considering the devs have mentioned there will be changes to the classes and abilities, I think we can actually start brainstorming on how that can play out.

I did. I feel my suggestion is more viable. I've stated why. you have not stated why your method is better, yet continue to argue that it is. I'm beginning to feel you're just but-hurt i don't like your idea >.>

i'm not getting the vibe that you're really brain storming. you're not throwing any additional ideas into the fray.

I've broken down the abilities lost on DRK. I've half thrown in an ability rotation. both of which show that the class will 1) not be very fun to play due to high idle time 2) not be competitive as a DD class due to lack of abilities that increase damage potential 3) has abilities that overlap with existing mechanics. (IE: graze overlaps with parry)

I've shown you why it's not viable. Show me why it is. wheres the theory craft? where's the ability rotation?

That's kind of the point of suggestions; they come about because you want to see it happen.

still has to be viable. random suggestions are worthless. if you can support your ideas with data/critical thought they are more likely to be taken seriously.

I can rant and rave about something I want (mounted combat in large scale PvP) but that does not mean I will get it.

For suggestions I make that have specific details i take special care to check current mechanics and theory craft to make sure that everything remains on par with everything that already exists.

I admit the ability limit is really hard to work with. That being said, I wouldn't back down from an approach I know works and have had the opportunity to play with. The clincher was the ability limit, which seems to be going away if the jobs and classes will be receiving new abilities and adjustments going into 2.0.

obsoleting half your ability roster will never work. period. end of discussion. show me an example where this works if you have evidence to the contrary. you have to sell me on this or i will never buy it. I'm ok with losing 1 or 2 abilities. but half of my roster is completely unacceptable.

adding a new mechanic that overlaps an existing mechanic will not be viable. there is absolutely no point in introducing it. Graze overlaps with parry. It's like as shield block but with a 2hander. no point. does not need to exist.

now if it was something more like 'upon missing an attack, you have a 25% chance to attack again' that's a completely different story. A mechanic like this does not overlap with an existing mechanic. it fits the role of DD by increasing damage potential, and allows for slightly greater customization of gear. (have to worry a little less about acc). it also gives the 2h sword something that the 1h/shield doesn't have. however this alone does not compensate for losing half your abilities.

a rework of the GLA abilities should entail making them useful with and without a shield. this would give the class more versatility and allow it to spawn a wider variety of jobs. ones that use shields, and ones that do not use shields.

Now if we get a myriad of new abilities and obvious restrictions between roles for a class and you're still unhappy...well, then I don't know what to tell you.

irrelevant. but ok. how content I am with something is my problem. thank you for stating the obvious.

[SwordCoheir]

I've kinda skimmed over the posts cause I can't keep reading these extended segmented walls of text you and duelle have been going on about the past week and keep track of exactly where the convo is going. But here's the gist of it in a nutshell as a third opinion to your conversation.

GLA would need to go through major revisions to support extended branches like DRK or RDM.

DRK doesn't work because GLA role despite it's description is heavily dependent on using a shield for half it's abilities and as a core is mostly defensive, leaving little to no room for jobs that support 2h or offhanded weapons. This again does not give way to make DRK a viable DD due to these restrictions without changing abilities to suit 2h or offhand weapons, and to be honest DRK would probably fit better in the hands of the MRD class or a new class focused towards developing DRK in the future.

RDM for much of the same reasons, would not work well with GLA either, and because GLA doesn't really support magic naturally. Perhaps if GLA had magic weaponskills like Red Lotus Blade before the class revamp at 1.19 it might have been doable, however that is not the case nowadays and job abilities would have to be changed completely to fit the role instead of just being adjusted like one might be able too do with DRK using Duelle's suggestions mentioned earlier.

In either case most are set that Musketeer or Fencer will fulfill the class role of RDM, so I very much doubt we'll see RDM branch off of GLA.

[Aceofspades]

@.@ lost track of what this forum is about. Anyways, my thoughts on Dark Knight, why would you have that stem off of glad? orginally a sword and shield class, its better suited for two swords then a two handed sword. Seems MRD would make a better class to branch DRK off of, especially since its a offensive tankish job . just a thought.