Pipe Dreams: Gladiators, Paladins and Dark Knights

[Duelle]

1. I'll address point 4 here as well. If you think that, then the class should only have traits and abilities that all of its jobs can utilize. DRKs are going to QQ that they have 2 dead abilities (phalanx and war drum) as well as 2 dead traits (your shield traits). PLDs would QQ about having 2 dead traits (your great sword traits). The great sword traits should be moved to DRK, the shield abilities (phalanx and war drum) along with the shield traits should be moved to PLD, and those 4 traits and 2 abilities should be replaced on GLA with ones that would benefit both PLD and DRK.

I don't see how anyone could complain about having abilities they can't use based on their chosen role. That'd be like a Fury Warrior (the guy that dual wields two-handed weapons) complaining that they can't use Shield Slam even though they learned the ability from the warrior trainer.

I agree with your point of having abilities and traits that benefit both on the base class, but I was trying to work within the confines of 5 job abilities and 5 job traits. Additionally, please keep in mind that this is the sort of approach I would want taken to all classes to help them accomodate second and possibly third jobs stemming from those classes. I'm just focusing on GLA because we're in the GLA forums.

2. You're comparing two completely different games and gaming companies here. In WoW, far more attacks are made in 12 secs than in 20 secs for FFXIV. Also, the community here feels that PLD is underpowered, where in WoW the community felt (as you've said) that PLD was OP.

XIV, and specially GLA, has borrowed quite a bit from WoW as it is. GLA and by extension PLD is basically a Protection Warrior with Thunderclap/War Drum on a ridiculously long cooldown and without Shockwave, Sunder Armor/Devastate and the baseline enmity bonuses from defensive stance. SE also tacked on PLD the Holy Paladin's Beacon of Light mechanic but applied only to themselves.

And I don't think WoW ever had an ability that had a recast of longer than 10 mins let alone 5.

The warrior discipline cooldowns (Recklessness, Shield Wall, Retaliation) used to be on 30-minute cooldowns. Divine Intervention was on a 20-minute cooldown. Army of the Dead was also on a 20-minute cooldown. That's just three off the top of my head.

I also believe that blizzard was just taking the lazy route using an immunity ability as an excuse to do nothing.

Considering what Utsusemi tanking did to FFXI, not to mention the other ways players could avoid/negate damage in other games (Regen/Evansion Scrappers in CoH, for one), I don't think it was a lazy approach at all.

5. I would change the wording on Flash to something like "Generates large enmity on target and all enemies around it. Has a high chance to inflict blind." I say this because the AoE enmity is the major point of Flash for PLDs to AoE tank.

Thanks for the suggestions. It has been noted and changed.

6. Makes better sense now thank you.

You're welcome.


PS: I'm surprised no one has commented for or against

Traits

24 Sword & Board: Occasionally attack with your shield.

[Shurrikhan]

For a class that is supposed to be flexible, GLA is kind of boned in terms of design because it is being hammered into a tank-like role between ability spread and DPS. Of course, the focus on the word Gladiator and what it means in the west is kind of moot, since in the JP version the class is called Kenjutsushi (剣術士), or Swordsman. As such, the class should really be about the way of the sword in terms of raw combat. Thus, it would be better to shift the class down to the middle way, allow the abilities set from other classes to help decide the role and go from there. To solidify yourself into one specific role, you could then switch to a job.

This has always somewhat bugged me about the way localization has applied to classes. More entertaining names or not, the English versions connote additional combat styles that don't exist, rather than simply Swordsman, Bowman, Axeman, etc. To be honest, I prefer the English version immensely though.

• They feel fuller and more rounded, rather than sounding as if split merely by weapon type.
• And they seem to have a more equal distribution of classes available to them, largely due to the nature of their mindsets, rather than their weapons.

For example, a DRK certainly could come from a Marauder, but it couldn't come from an Axeman. The Marauder mindset of defense by overpowering health, suppressive but simple offence, and attrition with absorbtion fits Dark Knight almost to the letter. But no DRK will be seen as using an axe, so instead the job is forced into the Swordsman class.

That said, I suppose there are some mindsets that come with the weapons, although less obviously and not well overlapping with those given by the English names. The Swordsman has a feel of balance and variability. The Axeman has a feeling of oppression, sheer force, brutality, and domination -- probably the closest to its English equivalent even if lacking some of the Marauder's feel of survivability especially when using cross-class abilities. The Bowman gives a feeling of playing dirty, striking out of nowhere, being mobile -- whereas Archer feels a bit more positively iconic, more akin to an overwatch or longbowman.

The two caster classes seem to be just as far off from their abilities and playstyles as THM is currently in English. The Japanese term for Conjurer translates to approximately "Dream-" or "Illusion-" or "Phantom-user" [best guess: Illusionist or (False) Envisioner] (Genjutsushi) and Thaumaturge to "Curse-user" or "Occult-Arts User" (Jujutsushi).

Assuming the English view of the classes will inevitably be taking what scraps are given by the Japanese names, I'm all for a much more balanced Swordsman/Gladiator class, as that's about the only mindset that comes from the weapon type alone. But if those changes are to be made, you might as well plan to support jobs like Samurai and Fencer too, right?

[Shurrikhan]

To be honest, what I would most like to see is that one naming system or the other is really taken in full, and the other names changed to match it. And it should be done in a way that all jobs possible should be able to stem from those classes. However, I don't think that actually requires that each job stem from one precise class. It could just as easily be that the job is given twice as many unique abilities, and then subs from 3 jobs or so. DRK for example could even borrow various abilities from different points in combos to be placed into its own. Whether he wants Goring Blade or Maim, or Vorpal Thrust or Fast Blade to be used within his combos is up to him.

Or you could take it one step further and make it so the different classes really do feel like all-usable paths of training, but that is a very long step.

My biggest issue still remains with the caster classes. Even if Thaumaturge/Curse-User had remained a soul/blood/light/dark-type in accordance with its original lore, rather wearing the shadowed half of the original Conjurer class face, there'd still need to be one additional magic user in order to make the jump to classes like Arithmetician or Puppetmaster. I think Arcanist could fill that role, with a name in Japanese that has to do with manipulating magic itself, or Aether.

Or, if I might be allowed a pipe dream of my own, some actual integration of DoL (and maybe even DoW) into the rest of the game, such as through Scholar being a lore-based Disciple of the Land pursuit, and Artificer [to be renamed] (which can be used for Puppetmaster via DoM or Mechanist via DoW), or Tamer (for Beastmaster via DoW and Summoner via DoM).

P.S. Extending the mindset, I think many of the functions of a 'Scout' could come from Gladiator and Archer in English or 斥候 / 忍者 from Bowman and... I'm not sure, for Japanese. But in either case, it will probably be worth considering if an additional class can be avoided, and a dagger aspect added to the (albeit already cluttered) Swordsman class, or to Bowman (my preference). It won't be an obvious connection, but if Scout could have an off-hand dagger carry alongside his bow, it would work well. Makes at least as much sense as Bard to me. Ninja would almost seem to be a job of a job in that regard though, then perhaps switching to double daggers. Perhaps allowing Bowman off-hand dagger carries and some small dagger abilities from the start would fix that.

P.S.S. I too care more about class functionality than "uniqueness" in most of the cases where "uniqueness" is praised on most forums. To me, uniqueness refers more to the ability of playstyle pursuable within the class or job, rather than each being locked into a niche. I occasionally off-tank as MNK, sometime just when I purposely overdo threat as the tank bottoms out and I'm full with CDs up, sometimes to kite, but either way I'm often surprised by how effective it is. And I love the class for that ability, even if I'm supposed to be DD. Each DD deals damage differently, and each tank tanks differently. That should be enough. And it's certainly more enjoyable than feeling like half a player come role-call. Similarly, if the base classes expand their horizons a bit, I'm fine with that. In the case of the Japanese names, it honestly seems necessary. And even with the English, it'd be helpful.

[Shurrikhan]

Unlocked-attachments job stems to classes examples for possible future jobs.
Order, left to right, somewhat refers to importance of classes in the mix (descending).
[I]Swordsman, Spearman, Fist-fighter, Bowman, Axeman, Conjurer, Thaumaturge + Arcanist (ACN) [New DoM], Tamer (TMR), Scholar (SCH), Artificer (ART) [ [New DoLs].

Additions meant to be as few as possible while finishing job opportunities, and in the case of DoL additions to better fill out that group and increase connections to content. Should have more on that subject in another thread soon.

Ninja - FIST / SWD / BOW
Dancer - ARC / FIST / CNJ
Samurai - SWD / AXE / FIST
Dark Knight - SWD / AXE / SPR / THM
Summoner - 'CNJ' / 'THM' / (TMR) / (SCH)
Beastmaster - AXE / BOW / CNJ / (TMR)
Blue Mage - CNJ / (ACN) / THM
Red Mage - THM / (ACN) / CNJ
Mechanist - (ART) / BOW / ???
Puppetmaster - (ART) / (ARC) / (TMR) / ???

[Onisake]

Ninja - FIST / SWD / BOW
Dancer - ARC / FIST / CNJ
Samurai - SWD / AXE / FIST
Dark Knight - SWD / AXE / SPR / THM
Summoner - 'CNJ' / 'THM' / (TMR) / (SCH)
Beastmaster - AXE / BOW / CNJ / (TMR)
Blue Mage - CNJ / (ACN) / THM
Red Mage - THM / (ACN) / CNJ
Mechanist - (ART) / BOW / ???
Puppetmaster - (ART) / (ARC) / (TMR) / ???

A little off topic but this bothered me. Samurai would never use an axe. it was considered a barbaric/uncivilized weapon. Samurai's were known for their sword play, but archery was the main focus. a skilled bowman was worth 3 or 4 skilled swordsman. Samurai typically trained in swordplay, archery, and mounted archery. Archery was a lot like golf in ancient japan. it's what you did when you were discussing politics.

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back on topic:

it has not been explicitly stated if a class can have multiple jobs. it would make sense, but that's not necessarily the case.

also 剣術士 implies a western style of swordplay similar to fencing. when thinking of European swordplay the most common image is of a knight. furthermore it implies one-handed swords. gladiator was not a good choice in picking a parrallel, but swordsman would have been too generic and too open for interpretation. fencer would not have made sense to a western audience, as the class relies heavily on a shield. I personally think Squire would have been the best choice, but i'm not part of the localization team, nor do i have a desire to be. but please be understanding of the language barrier between names. it means something very different to the japanese than it does to westerners. do not try to imply/pull meaning across the barrier without intimate understanding of the culture of the target audience. it's better if you dont' use the name as part of trying to figure out the direction of the class.

that being said we are more likely to get redmages with foils out of the glad class than DRK with GSWD. as foils and redmage are more defensive in nature than DRK, which is more likely to spring from the MRD class. MRD also has berserk, which fits DRK more.

So i cannot agree with your new take on abilities for this class. they do not make sense with the current direction, and it makes it too similar to MRD. if anything i'd like to see it get more defensive abilities and further plant it as the go-to tank.

Also PLD does just fine as a tank for things that matter. for trash WAR is king due to AoE damage. but against the heavy hitters you want a pld.

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But in the interest of discussion, if we wanted to make GLD more offensive I would give its defensive abilities a twist.

Rampart:

w/ shield: increases defense for allies, increases enmity

w/o shield: increases attack for allies, increases enmity

Shield Bash:

w/ shield: Delivers a melee attack with your shield. Chance to inflict Stun.

w/o shield: Delivers a melee attack that has a chance to lower defense.

Sentinel:

w/ shield: Temporarily reduces damage taken. Increases enmity generated by actions while effect is active.

w/o shield: Temporarily increases critical damage dealt. Decreases attack rate while effect is active

Outmaneuver:

w/ shield: Increases block rate and grants TP for each block made while effect is active.

w/o shield: Increases critical attack rate when attacking from the side or behind.

War Drum:

w/ shield: Delivers a melee attack with your shield to nearby enemies. Generates massive enmity. Can only be used immediately after blocking an attack.

w/o shield: Delivers a warcry that demoralizes nearby enemies. Decreases enmity. Can only be used immediately after scoring a critical strike.

Aegis Boon:

w/ shield: Blocks the next incoming attack and grants HP in proportion to damage taken.

w/o shield: Parries the next incoming attack and grants increased evasion for XX seconds.

[Judge_Xero]

looks good. but will SE take the pointers? most likly not since everyones been bitching about what pld needs and SE wont even take it into consideration.

Who's everyone? Since the last main fixes on PLD, it's been chosen for most endgame content that doesn't require DPSing trash mobs with WAR.

[Judge_Xero]

But in the interest of discussion, if we wanted to make GLD more offensive I would give its defensive abilities a twist.

Great concept.
OP has some great points as well.

There are many flaws, due to the ability to Macro Gear changes. This system would be complex to balance and OP due to the fact that you could change gear prior to using an ability.

Swap to Greatsword, use ability, swap back to Sword and Shield etc.

[Onisake]

Great concept.
OP has some great points as well.

There are many flaws, due to the ability to Macro Gear changes. This system would be complex to balance and OP due to the fact that you could change gear prior to using an ability.

Swap to Greatsword, use ability, swap back to Sword and Shield etc.

Can't swap in combat. wouldn't be that OP. also depends on the actual values of increased attack, etc. also GSWD i would tie directly to the job (IE: DRK only) so all of your crap would go on CD as a result of the equipment swap due to job change. (also cannot do during combat)
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there are a host of other reasons i feel that DRK shouldnot stem from GLA, but i gave my input based on the OP on how i think it might work better.

GLAs main stats are STR/MND and i think DRK should be STR/INT or STR/DEX which would mean a new class. STR/PIE could make sense to a degree, but then we have DRK stemming from LNC and not MRD/GLA. but it really depends on how SE wants to develop the class (assuming it's implanted in the first place). i also think the next tanking class should stem from lancer, as str/pie makes more sense for magic tanking. but i'm not quite sure exactly how pie effect m.eva

This is a little off topic, but we really need a new mage class. preferably a solid backup healer, and not something that's just 'oh, i get access to cure from CNJ' I'm personally hoping for time mage. but a lot of people are talking about arcanist as the next mage class, or red mage. I think right now we need another healing class far more than we need another DD.

I'm hoping for time mage to be a primary buffer/debuffer class. and function as a backup healer by using time warps or something to boost the effectiveness of cure to have something on the level of cura. and also have something similar to protect that increases awareness to increase evasion/parry/block rate. give it boosts to cooldown reduction as it levels and we'll have a nice rounded mage class that doesn't overlap too much with BLM or WHM. not to mention HASTE!

Alternatively I'd like to see chemist implemented as the backup healer. use potions and stuff to heal/buff/debuff allies and enemies. can give them a gun with elemental bullets as well.

[SwordCoheir]

A little off topic but this bothered me. Samurai would never use an axe. it was considered a barbaric/uncivilized weapon. Samurai's were known for their sword play, but archery was the main focus. a skilled bowman was worth 3 or 4 skilled swordsman. Samurai typically trained in swordplay, archery, and mounted archery. Archery was a lot like golf in ancient japan. it's what you did when you were discussing politics.

Actually Samurai were notoriously skilled spear users as well, they were iconic with the great katana which is often used to depict Samurai in most modern settings.

TBH judging by Lancer's Job Abilities it seems they were pegged to be the next version of SAM which inherited many SAM like abilities from FFXI.

[Onisake]

Actually Samurai were notoriously skilled spear users as well, they were iconic with the great katana which is often used to depict Samurai in most modern settings.

TBH judging by Lancer's Job Abilities it seems they were pegged to be the next version of SAM which inherited many SAM like abilities from FFXI.

Nice to see another history buff.

It's true that the samurai were skilled spear users. and just before the Edo period ashigaru (spear foot) were the main force of an army. However they quickly fell to disuse because times were peaceful. at this point the katana became the weapon of choice, however briefly.

the bow was the weapon of choice for a much longer period. which is why i consider it to be a samurai's real weapon. but the reality of it is, it will depend on which era you go to.

I wouldn't mind seeing spear-based Samurai. but i think it might interfere with DRG too much. when people think Samurai (with a few rare exceptions) they think of a Katana.

when thinking of skilled bowman, the general thought is mongol mounted archers. for spearmen, it's the spartan hoplite.

using FFXI as a comparison, simply because samurai could use a variety of weapons, they had a very good spear rating (tied with war) but the second best archery score, behind RNG. beating out THF by a full 10 skill points.
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just because the abilities are simliar doesn't mean the classes will be similar. we can assume that sam will be a DD class in FFXIV. and traditionally it would make sense for it to have access to both lancer and arc skills. but it will likely use the katana as its main weapon. meaning it will either need to stem from GLA as the katana as a sword (not likely) or a new class will be introduced that uses a katana (more likely, because NIN could potentially spawn from it aswell)