PLD... The curious contradiction....

[Rydin]

So a tank's #1 priority is to build hate...
And Paladin's do it through healing....
Right? With me so far?

Then can someone explain to me why that is the class that gets the most damage mitigation abilities?

Aren't they contrasting ideas?

Seems silly to me... So if the IDEA behind Paladin is fail.... If the theory behind the entire existence of the class is illogical... How can the class thrive?

I know what you're thinking... PLD was tank king in FFXI....
But why do you think that was?

It wasn't because of healing....
PLD's weren't spam self healing on HNMs

And it wasn't because of hate.... Sorry, but it wasn't....
It was for survivability....
Paladin is used when it is the only class that can tank the MOB and survive (Or has, by far, the best chance at survival)

People seem to be clinging to an idea of PLD that was broken... even in FFXI
Fight starts... PLD goes into damage mitigation mode (through shield abilities or shadows) and flashes repeatedly for 2-3 minutes.... (idiotic)
Then DD's get some TP and trick attack WS (You know it as Collusion, and only the warrior benefits from it)

Paladin only shines in that rare situation where any other class would die while tanking.

The new buffs to PLD are nice... but don't address the issue...

Before these changes... PLD can't tank most things and WAR can...
After these changes, PLD can now tank these enemies it couldn't before (Which is nice for people who love PLD and will play it regardless) but WAR will always be better
I don't know why people think being able to block more (While admittedly nice) will make PLD better at generating enmity (which is the definition of tanking)

How can PLD ever expect to be viable when the premise behind it is so flawed?

There are actually quite a few different things that could be done to make PLD viable...
(But to do so, you have to get away from the "Heal for hate" paradigm... it wont work
You can't do all of these suggestions either or else PLD becomes OP....
But here are a few suggestions...
1. Make Blocks generate enmity (With the Block rate increase, this would be awesome)
2. Make Sentinel WAYYYYYYY better. (Let's be real, it sucks now)
3. Give PLd Collusion. (It's awesome)
4. Give DD's trick attack (You knew i was going to say that)
5. Make Rampart a way bigger AOE
sidenote: Rampart is such a tease. You think you're going to grab all of this enmity, but each person you use it on has to be on the enemies enmity table and standing next to you... weak
6. Lower War Drums cooldown
7. Buff Phalanx with more damage or supercharge the enmity gained from it
8. Lower the Spirit's within cooldown even more
9. Make Blocks generate really good enmity (Sorry, I had to list it twice)

There are obviously more ways to make it work, these are just my thoughts
And like I said... you can't do all of these things or else PLD becomes super OP... and we don't want that

Lastly... think about this

with MRD>WAR, most tanking abilities come from the job (WAR)
with GLA>PLD, most tanking abilities come from the class (GLA)

Since Job abilities are exclusive and most class abilities are not, that means WAR has access to it's tanking abilities as well as those from GLA... While PLD only has the GLA tanking abilities, since MRD hardly has any

Reach OUT

[Masamune1004]

Lastly... think about this

with MRD>WAR, most tanking abilities come from the job (WAR)
with GLA>PLD, most tanking abilities come from the class (GLA)

Since Job abilities are exclusive and most class abilities are not, that means WAR has access to it's tanking abilities as well as those from GLA... While PLD only has the GLA tanking abilities, since MRD hardly has any

Reach OUT

Mind = Blown.

[Rydin]

Mind = Blown.

I know you're joking... but it's true...
WAR, as a job, focuses on enmity generation while PLD, as a job, focuses on damage mitigation...
Job skills are exclusive... so WAR doesn't get damage mitigation and PLD doesn't get enmity....
Who is losing more?

[Ricky]

Blocking more means more War Drum and Phalanx spam (required block to use them) and Spirits Within combos with Phalanx, all three of these abilities have enmity boost

Anyway, I don't think PLD threat was ever a problem, the real problem is speed runs and the fact that a Warrior tank makes them... speedier!
Oh and PLD can use some more HP too but that is secondary to the failure of the current dungeon design. Actually, speed runs are OK, but Yoshi-P has stated before that any class can do any content and that's just not true right now.

Well, Dr. Mog had a video of a speed run of some dungeon with one of every class, but we all know how MMO players are, not willing to face adversity when there is an easier path to the loot

[Ricky]

I know you're joking... but it's true...
WAR, as a job, focuses on enmity generation while PLD, as a job, focuses on damage mitigation...
Job skills are exclusive... so WAR doesn't get damage mitigation and PLD doesn't get enmity....
Who is losing more?

Definitely right on this point, the loss of Second Wind alone is so noticeable on Paladin vs Warrior. The skills you can get from CNJ are just not good enough compared to the skills Warrior has access to, although I haven't really tried keeping Stoneskin on my self as much as possible, I haven't played PLD much period, leveled White Mage instead

[Aion]

Blocking more means more War Drum and Phalanx spam (required block to use them) and Spirits Within combos with Phalanx, all three of these abilities have enmity boost

Anyway, I don't think PLD threat was ever a problem, the real problem is speed runs and the fact that a Warrior tank makes them... speedier!
Oh and PLD can use some more HP too but that is secondary to the failure of the current dungeon design. Actually, speed runs are OK, but Yoshi-P has stated before that any class can do any content and that's just not true right now.

Well, Dr. Mog had a video of a speed run of some dungeon with one of every class, but we all know how MMO players are, not willing to face adversity when there is an easier path to the loot

again, its not the problem that PLD cant tank/generate enmity, but WAR does it better..and Yoshi-P admit it

[Rydin]

Blocking more means more War Drum and Phalanx spam (required block to use them) and Spirits Within combos with Phalanx, all three of these abilities have enmity boost

Anyway, I don't think PLD threat was ever a problem, the real problem is speed runs and the fact that a Warrior tank makes them... speedier!
Oh and PLD can use some more HP too but that is secondary to the failure of the current dungeon design. Actually, speed runs are OK, but Yoshi-P has stated before that any class can do any content and that's just not true right now.

Well, Dr. Mog had a video of a speed run of some dungeon with one of every class, but we all know how MMO players are, not willing to face adversity when there is an easier path to the loot

Good point... but spirits within is really not limited by lack of blocking, as it stands... It's really only limited by it's own cooldown

Also.... being that enmity can be a major bottleneck for DD's... If PLD could generate even 25% more enmity than a WAR then fights would go faster than with WAR tanking, even if the PLD didn't deal any damage, because the DD's wouldn't have to hold back as much.
Here is a secret... High DPS is the key to speedy kills... and Tank Enmity is the key to high DPS

[Ricky]

again, its not the problem that PLD cant tank/generate enmity, but WAR does it better..and Yoshi-P admit it

Having played both I feel like the only time Warrior is better with enmity is on groups of mobs, but the biggest benefit there is that they help kill them so much faster as well. Probably a Paladin can manage just fine tanking groups, but Flash (no dmg) vs Steel Cyclone (over 9000 damage) is going to favor the Warrior.

[Ricky]

Good point... but spirits within is really not limited by lack of blocking, as it stands... It's really only limited by it's own cooldown

Also.... being that enmity can be a major bottleneck for DD's... If PLD could generate even 25% more enmity than a WAR then fights would go faster than with WAR tanking, even if the PLD didn't deal any damage, because the DD's wouldn't have to hold back as much.
Here is a secret... High DPS is the key to speedy kills... and Tank Enmity is the key to high DPS

It isn't even an issue of killing the boss fast is it? I thought the clear of the trash took a larger amount of time, in every MMO I've ever played speed runs came down to efficiency of clearing the trash and that's why Steel Cyclone makes Warrior the preferred class, but I may be wrong

re: Spirits Within, isn't that 3000 TP without combo? I can't log in and check, but I'd rather do Flat Blade combos with excess TP and always combo Spirits Within rather than spending the whole 3000 on it, especially considering Phalanx is only 250 if I recall

But anyway, yeah, with Collusion and Antagonize and Vengeance and Flash (lol) and all the other tools the Warrior has I can see your point, they didn't really give Paladin comparable tools, while Blood Bath and Second Wind for Warrior are, I feel, truly comparable to Holy Succor

[Murugan]

It isn't even an issue of killing the boss fast is it? I thought the clear of the trash took a larger amount of time, in every MMO I've ever played speed runs came down to efficiency of clearing the trash and that's why Steel Cyclone makes Warrior the preferred class, but I may be wrong

re: Spirits Within, isn't that 3000 TP without combo? I can't log in and check, but I'd rather do Flat Blade combos with excess TP and always combo Spirits Within rather than spending the whole 3000 on it, especially considering Phalanx is only 250 if I recall

But anyway, yeah, with Collusion and Antagonize and Vengeance and Flash (lol) and all the other tools the Warrior has I can see your point, they didn't really give Paladin comparable tools, while Blood Bath and Second Wind for Warrior are, I feel, truly comparable to Holy Succor

You can pop block with aegis boon though, and do both war drum/phalanx->Spirit's Within. I think that is what he meant, it isn't an issue of you "having to wait for block" right now. It is the cooldown on the abilities themselves.