Thread: Dark Knight moving forward: Job change ideas for 6.0

Originally Posted by Kalise

I haven't read the whole thread... But, I wanted to put out some (Poorly thought out) ideas:

- Delirium not being IR clone. Instead grants "Darkest Arts" for the duration, making Flood/Edge of Darkness/Shadow cost 0 mana for the duration. (Would be a significant DPS increase over simply Bloodspiller spam that the current design provides though)

Why not go for something with a bit more internal synergy? Our last surviving synergetic decision is to bank DA for raid buffs, so why not make it worth banking DA for Delirium?

A simple, but somewhat dull, version of that would be to make each EoS/FoS in duration increase the damage dealt by future EoS/FoS casts over the duration.

A cooler, but perhaps more punishing, version would be to (at longer duration) have each EoS/FoS double the damage multiplier and drain rate of Darkside (perhaps halving the additional duration granted, too?). (Or, at least have the bonus damage multiplier apply to Blood- and MP-spending skills.) Or... have it double down on but then burn Darkside pure cast. W/e.

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Why not go for something with a bit more internal synergy? Our last surviving synergetic decision is to bank DA for raid buffs, so why not make it worth banking DA for Delirium?

Mostly because leaning too much into banking DA, can lead into a situation like with current NF, where people get annoyed at having to use TBN on an ally to ensure the proc. Especially if in the OT position for bosses that don't have a TB that hits both tanks.

A simple, but somewhat dull, version of that would be to make each EoS/FoS in duration increase the damage dealt by future EoS/FoS casts over the duration.

Well, something like this would also put more pressure on wanting to pop both Delirium and Blood Weapon at the same time, but unlike say GNB, who's CD's are 30 and 60 seconds, meaning as long as you pop Blasting Zone and Gnashing Fang on CD, you'll have them both ready for each cast of No Mercy, DRK's CD's are 60 and 90 seconds which creates this awkward desync where only every 3rd Blood Weapon aligns with Delirium provided both are used on CD.

Especially given that encounters and raid buffs are designed as a "Use them when they light up" with no bosses having designated "Burst Phases" or having the option to "Skip" a particularly undesired phase by bursting through it (Because boss mechanics changing for any reason other than time in the encounter is alien to the design team)

A cooler, but perhaps more punishing, version would be to (at longer duration) have each EoS/FoS double the damage multiplier and drain rate of Darkside (perhaps halving the additional duration granted, too?). (Or, at least have the bonus damage multiplier apply to Blood- and MP-spending skills.) Or... have it double down on but then burn Darkside pure cast. W/e.

That could be cool. If Darkside was an actual mechanic. Rather than something that only actually ticks down when you're holding a DA proc and even then, the timer is not hugely relevant because the clock you're actually playing against is how long before you start to overcap on MP and thus lose potential EoS/FoS casts. Outside of holding DA, it's every 3000 MP you generate, you get a Darkside refresh. Due to a lack of other MP dumps that don't refresh Darkside.

Though, if we were to try and consider something more interesting we could perhaps take a leaf out of PLD's book, and utilizing a double burst window with the 2 different CD's. Only, instead of alternating between a Berserk clone (FoF) and an IR clone (Requiescat), we look to change Delirium and Blood Weapon into CD's that interact with DRK's dual resources, i.e. MP and Blood.

For example, if Delirium buffed MP generation and MP skills (Possibly at the cost of draining Blood gauge?) while Blood Weapon buffed Blood generation and Blood skills (Possibly at the cost of draining MP?) then you'd alternate pooling each resource for the respective window where its relevant. Throw in some way to proc a free usage of a Blood skill (Possibly also a non-TBN way of proccing DA) and then you have a skill test of saving DA for free boosted cast in Delirium and saving the Blood skill proc for a free boosted cast in Blood Weapon.

As far as the particulars of the skills, that would need a little thought put into. Especially designing them so that resource management is desired, but not overly punishing. For example, I'm thinking something along the lines of each CD maxes out their prefered resource (I.e. Delirium gives max MP and Blood Weapon gives max Blood) so you only have to worry about pooling a single resouce for each window (I.e Pool Blood for Delirium, pool MP for Blood Weapon). Potentially then tie their durations to a drain on their non-prefered resource (I.e. Delirium drains Blood, Blood Weapon drains MP). Sprinkle in some halted resource generation for their duration, both to harken back to prior DRK iterations, and also to prevent any silly shenanigans from generating resources from combos... And the opposite CD...

Then the end result, could be 2 interesting burst windows, that can each have a different way of capitalizing on them (Uhh... Designing something that doesn't revolve around spamming Bloodspiller/EoS is beyond my mental capacity at this time in the morning...) to create a shift in gameplay alongside the pooling of different resources to maximize their effect (A particular mechanical interaction that is sorely missing from the game with the obselecence and then removal of TP and MP and something that makes me enjoy GNB even if limited to a mere "Have 2 Cartridges (And combo up to Brutal Shell) for No Mercy")

Originally Posted by Kalise

Mostly because leaning too much into banking DA, can lead into a situation like with current NF, where people get annoyed at having to use TBN on an ally to ensure the proc. Especially if in the OT position for bosses that don't have a TB that hits both tanks.

Then perhaps we ought to add alternate interactions and even soften that one, such as by giving it a briefer period in which it can refund its full MP cost into EoS/FoS? Avoiding all synergies just because they will induce skill-gap hardly seems a good direction, though. If TBN itself is so unreliable as to be annoying to include as part of the kit's play, then TBN itself should simply be adjusted rather than it precluding synergies.

Originally Posted by Kalise

Well, something like this would also put more pressure on wanting to pop both Delirium and Blood Weapon at the same time, but unlike say GNB, who's CD's are 30 and 60 seconds, meaning as long as you pop Blasting Zone and Gnashing Fang on CD, you'll have them both ready for each cast of No Mercy, DRK's CD's are 60 and 90 seconds which creates this awkward desync where only every 3rd Blood Weapon aligns with Delirium provided both are used on CD.

I actually prefer those on- and off-beat interactions most of the time, since it gives additional variance between levels of burst. The only issues lie in jump timings, but that entirity of the synergy between the two across a duration would still mean less than, say, a single Inner Release GCD lost to that jump, and the longer (90s) CD is already going to be the limiting factor here. What timings a WAR can handle, a less burst-centric DRK could handle better.

Originally Posted by Kalise

That could be cool. If Darkside was an actual mechanic.

I'd also be fine with scrapping current Darkside entirely and making it actual mechanic from the start, again, of course...

Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

This one is not poorly thought out because it is a good QoL change that needs to happen... but you know Living Shadow exists...

That's no QoL change. It's a straight buff. I'd argue a good one, but the gameplay difference from that is almost nil, while the numeric difference would be noticeable, even if not enough to bring it up to PLD/GNB damage (not that DRK likely should, given current TBN).

Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

So long as Living Shadow exists, don't expect to get those changes...

Nothing about Living Shadow makes those changes less likely. If anything, it's just the fact that they're all things you'd want timed to raid buffs that make them unlikely. The more likely fix for SkS better affecting Salted Earth and Living Shadow is for DoT damage to be increased as much by SkS/SpS as the GCD is, rather than at an amount at even lower efficiency than Determination, so DoT-inclusive jobs don't inherently suffer for taking it, or revamping SkS/SpS entirely so they can affect abilities (with an option, somehow, not to desync from raid buffs while still benefiting from SkS/SpS).

Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

And I finally figured out why I hate Living Shadow; it's basically like watching someone else play DRK better than you, which why I would I want a crappy companion/pet NPC have a cool rotation for my job/class abilities when I can just watch youtube videos of older and BETTER versions of DRK that I could be watching instead? Or what if I actually want to do the rotation that Living Shadow is doing without the Living Shadow?

I don't think a "better DRK" would be using Quietus in single-target, though I'll admit the throw-backs to certain GCD skills and the variety therein is more visually appealing.