Why can't Dungeons be longer/harder, but more... piecework?

[Limecat]

Rather than optional sections that people will ignore unless something inside is absolutely valuable, I'd rather they set dungeons up so that each leg has two or three different possible paths, and which ones make up your current run are decided randomly. Some could be more mechanic and gimmick-heavy, some with more mobs, but all geared towards the intention of taking the same completion time. I'd also like to see something along the lines of personal optional rewards, where something the player can do individually nets them something useful. Say you avoid certain mechanics perfectly during a boss, you personally get an extra VIII materia, or extra such-and-such weapon light, etc. Incentives to be more than an auto-pilot derp.

[StriderShinryu]

Rather than optional sections that people will ignore unless something inside is absolutely valuable, I'd rather they set dungeons up so that each leg has two or three different possible paths, and which ones make up your current run are decided randomly. Some could be more mechanic and gimmick-heavy, some with more mobs, but all geared towards the intention of taking the same completion time. I'd also like to see something along the lines of personal optional rewards, where something the player can do individually nets them something useful. Say you avoid certain mechanics perfectly during a boss, you personally get an extra VIII materia, or extra such-and-such weapon light, etc. Incentives to be more than an auto-pilot derp.

I like these ideas, and they were sort of what I was hoping for in the procedurally generated dungeons we've had but that fell quite short.

[Shurrikhan]

Rath was shunned by an overly large bit of the playerbase for being - unfair- and other things when Rath was literally everything people apparently have been asking for.

...Which people? I don't remember anyone saying they wanted healing to be literally prohibited, or even more early-snapshotted, poorly-telegraphed stun AoEs that can potentially chain into each other. I don't remember anyone asking for another literally circular space with a boss whose position cannot be controlled.

It didn't rely on AoE indicators, wasn't quite as scripted, and healers couldn't fully make up for player mistakes, so those are potential wins, but... they were each done in a way that didn't really seem to answer even those relatively niche requests. And there are whole threads of requests besides that saw nothing from Rathalos. So how it could possibly be everything people have been asking for?



There's a vast difference between giving something vaguely in the direction requested and giving something as requested. It takes many layers of over-generalization to conflate the two.

Yes, the playerbase could do far more to make its preferences specific, but when the playerbase says "throw me the ball," and the devs, being blind to their precise position, throw it way the heck past them or painfully short of them, no amount of insisting that the players should be happy with that poor throw will make them so.

What should be being asked isn't harder dungeons... but fixes and systems to make the over all playerbase BETTER so we can get harder content in the mainline of the game.

The two aren't mutually exclusive; in fact, they're probably best discussed together, but that would leave us with a thread too sprawling for players to easily contribute to it or anyone to make sense of it.

I've been largely focused on improvements to scaffolding, UI intuitiveness, control schemes to allow for more responsive healing (especially on controller), and in-game learning systems since late ARR. Sadly, most of those were met with similar criticisms of "We already have that" while pointing at something at only remotely reminiscent of the suggestions or "What point is there in making players better when content is so easy?"

[Lastelli]

Rath was shunned by an overly large bit of the playerbase for being - unfair- and other things when Rath was literally everything people apparently have been asking for. And yet hardly anyone did it and those that did it was like pulling teeth.

Rath was terrible, not because it was unfair (it was pretty easy) but because it was a mechanical mess given this game structure: healers were basically useless, the hitbox was extremely imprecise, there was virtually no reason to bring a dps when it released and finally it was the same few telegraphed mechanics throughout the fight. When did people ask for something like this? It was something relatively new, sure, bad it wasn't good content. It was just fanservice for mh fans.

[monk-dps]

Rath was terrible, not because it was unfair (it was pretty easy) but because it was a mechanical mess given this game structure: healers were basically useless, the hitbox was extremely imprecise, there was virtually no reason to bring a dps when it released and finally it was the same few telegraphed mechanics throughout the fight. When did people ask for something like this? It was something relatively new, sure, bad it wasn't good content. It was just fanservice for mh fans.

It wasn't terrible, It literally gave people a start of a 4 man extreme which people asked for, it gave random mechs within the fight, it had a different structure and a few other things in there. It was a start. The bigger issue here is people wanting everything handed to them instead of learning things and growing. It's why we have a very easy mode in solo msq fights, which people apparently couldn't do. I know you remember those threads of people dying in solo msq fights. This thread is asking for harder dungeons but they aren't adding more dungeons we're getting less. I feel like the bigger issue is not the dungeons, but the playerbase as a whole not wanting to get better at anything so we have to deal with baby dungeons. Long of the short of it, I still say we need to ask for better systems first to make the playerbase better otherwise it'll just be a waste. Look at everything that was nerfed or the 2k thread if you don't believe me.

[Tsalmaveth]

Rath was a mess because they tried to take what was in another game and transplant it into THIS game without also adding in the mechanics of that game, the dodging. Saying it was 'giving us what we wanted' is completely disingenuous and wrong. I don't know where you're coming from on that... at all? The Rath fight was literally an event fight and they did a better job taking the FFXIV monster and transplanting that into MHW than Rath into FFXIV simply because of the mechanics issues. FFXIV doesn't have the dodge-roll and that makes Rath a MESS. Point blank. So people found a way round it in CHEESING him with four tanks. Healers are almost useless outside of being around to cleanse. Outside of that, everyone else is just asking for cart-bait.

So no, Rath was not 'giving us what we asked for'... it was trading monsters in an event.

[Shurrikhan]

It wasn't terrible, It literally gave people a start of a 4 man extreme which people asked for, it gave random mechs within the fight, it had a different structure and a few other things in there. It was a start. The bigger issue here is people wanting everything handed to them instead of learning things and growing. It's why we have a very easy mode in solo msq fights, which people apparently couldn't do. I know you remember those threads of people dying in solo msq fights. This thread is asking for harder dungeons but they aren't adding more dungeons we're getting less. I feel like the bigger issue is not the dungeons, but the playerbase as a whole not wanting to get better at anything so we have to deal with baby dungeons. Long of the short of it, I still say we need to ask for better systems first to make the playerbase better otherwise it'll just be a waste. Look at everything that was nerfed or the 2k thread if you don't believe me.

How is any "start" going to be "everything"? How are those who wanted a 4-man extreme trial... everyone? How are just a few AoEs repeated in mostly random order so different from a few AoEs repeated in non-random, but nonetheless varied, order? How is the perfectly circular structure in which we fight Rathalos different from the perfectly circular structure in which we fight so many others? How is the phase-structure of the fight itself so different from other trials, save in that it is simpler (having fewer distinct phases overall)? How is not understanding the objectives of the fight (such as needing to kite Zenos until having survived for a sufficient, not-listed, time) or underestimating its dependence on gimmicks (such as in the Thancred vs. Ranjit) the same thing as needing as few mechanics, distinct phases, or party play as possible? You've badly conflated each of these.

And, again, if the bottleneck is the playerbase, then perhaps you could make suggestions towards the game's improving said playerbase? Without allowing for those suggestions, let alone providing any of your own, you're not just insisting that improvements to the playerbase are needed first, but that improvements to the playerbase are not feasible and therefore anything more than "baby" content is not feasible. They don't need to be wholly detailed or concrete, but there should at least be a span of improvements you think, given the right implementations, are possible and a smaller set you think are likely. Yours and others' opinions on which improvements are even remotely possible, and which are likely, can then guide discussion here and in any other thread that dares to suggest or care about anything beyond the lowest common denominator.

Simply precluding whatever you are not particularly fond of as not currently viable does nothing to aid discussion unless those suggestions are meant to be thrown into the game in the near future. There is no such implication here. This thread is equal parts discussion on future-proofing via reward systems, which gameplay loops we enjoy or at least chuckle kindly at, and what we want to see from experimental content. None of that is immediately deployable. Little of that is even concrete and/or packaged. There are suggestions that may threaten your preferences in the game, but this is about as far from that as possible.

I apologize if I come off as hostile to you; that is not my intent. But, just as much as the playerbase could make use of steady reasons to improve, so perhaps can how we communicate on the forums. There is an important place for determining useful scope on any thread, but to insist that a bottleneck not only be addressed, but dealt with, before we even discuss what we might want to use those fixes for, denies anyone the ability to progress topics in which they have the most to contribute. It's like purposely refusing to switch between tasks even when one hits a bog and could be helped by another's progress.

Throw us a rope here. Let's address the issue of the playerbase, sure, but let's also make some allowance for how those fixes might play out and how we can make use of them.

[monk-dps]

Rath was a mess because they tried to take what was in another game and transplant it into THIS game without also adding in the mechanics of that game, the dodging. Saying it was 'giving us what we wanted' is completely disingenuous and wrong. I don't know where you're coming from on that... at all? The Rath fight was literally an event fight and they did a better job taking the FFXIV monster and transplanting that into MHW than Rath into FFXIV simply because of the mechanics issues. FFXIV doesn't have the dodge-roll and that makes Rath a MESS. Point blank. So people found a way round it in CHEESING him with four tanks. Healers are almost useless outside of being around to cleanse. Outside of that, everyone else is just asking for cart-bait.

So no, Rath was not 'giving us what we asked for'... it was trading monsters in an event.

So people didn't ask for 4 man extremes? People didn't ask for random mechs in things? I seem to remember those things being asked.. so yes they actually did. And like I said it was a start. People cheesed it because they couldn't do it normally cause of a lack of skill. I ran into so many people who couldn't understand simple things like moving out the way. It was a mess. That fight showed just how bad the playerbase is at this game. It's pretty bad. I'm not saying it was perfect.. but it did give people things they wanted.

[Tsalmaveth]

So people didn't ask for 4 man extremes? People didn't ask for random mechs in things? I seem to remember those things being asked.. so yes they actually did. And like I said it was a start. People cheesed it because they couldn't do it normally cause of a lack of skill. I ran into so many people who couldn't understand simple things like moving out the way. It was a mess. That fight showed just how bad the playerbase is at this game. It's pretty bad. I'm not saying it was perfect.. but it did give people things they wanted.

No, it wasn't a lack of skill... It was MISSING A KEY MECHANIC that the other game HAD. DODGE-ROLL. Have you PLAYED Monster-Hunter World?? That's a KEY mechanic that is used in that game. They literally changed up how this game works for a single fight and expected it to 'just work'. Of course it caused issues. Give me a break.

[monk-dps]

No, it wasn't a lack of skill... It was MISSING A KEY MECHANIC that the other game HAD. DODGE-ROLL. Have you PLAYED Monster-Hunter World?? That's a KEY mechanic that is used in that game. They literally changed up how this game works for a single fight and expected it to 'just work'. Of course it caused issues. Give me a break.

When people can't move out the way when Rath takes 3 moves to turn to look at you charge up his move and then fire. You have penty of time to move, but people not moving is a lack of skill. You going to tell me people don't suck? If they don't then explain the biggest thread on this forum where people don't move, don't heal, don't tank, and don't press buttons. Rath while not perfect showed to me how bad most people are in this game.