Is DRK ever getting adjustments?

[FallenWings]

DRK and WAR having good self healing in casual content.

DPS having instant kill buttons.

Yes, because those are two directly comparable things.

"Good" self healing? More like "I will now heal to full in one button press and trivialize the existence of healer and damage intake".

Just because content is deemed casual doesn't mean we should further remove any degree of challenge or thought process in them. The further you diminish and automate it, the more you have to ask why are you even playing it in the first place.

And yes I do compare instakill buttons with those old self healing toolsets. They were insanely broken and were an upset to reasonable balance amongst the tanks in dungeons and any possible future horde type encounters. A single tank shouldn't just straight up be virtually invincible.

Self heal still exists and is more fairly rationed against content and other tank toolsets.

[FallenWings]

I'm genuinely unsure if you read the post. The near-entirety of my concerns are with how DRK plays while levelling, and I specifically mention how good Flood is to start, but it falls off HARD once the other tanks have access to actual combo actions. If someone's post is "DRK really struggles with AoE before 72 and as a result has issues with big pulls compounded by reworks to its defensive kit", it's a bit rich to talk about how good it is after that point. I'm not saying DRK has to be an AoE star at all points of the game, just that it's glaringly bad for a considerable part of its levelling experience. In the end most of the issues could be resolved by some skill acquisition order changes or other small QoL things like Blood Weapon duration, it doesn't need sweeping buffs.

I'm unsure if you've even bothered to read my post then. I've already explained that Flood is the reason DRK is not doing bad and is adequeately balanced with the other tanks. The other tanks with their "combo" do not match up to the Flood burst until *atleast* 8 GCDs in, in which everything is already dead and DRK is also regaining mana to, again blast out more 250/300 oGCD potency.

If you were talking about gameplay then maybe? Although I hardly see how 1-2 1-2 is any more engaging than 1a 1a 1a 1c 1e.

But as far as actual effectiveness goes, DRK does fine whilst levelling and is probably the best dungeon tank at 80. No TBN till 70? Rampart + Shadow Wall + Reprisal + Arms Length is more than enough.

[Breadgehog]

I'd love to be in the levelling parties you're in where everything's dead in 8 GCDs - those sound wonderful, honestly. And DRK has practically no AoE MP gains until it gets its combo action, which is why Flood doesn't hold up to the others when they have combos. Blood Weapon will never give you a full Flood because of its duration (unless you specifically switch to ST for the 5 GCDs and drag out a pull, which the DPS loss is not worth), and Delirium is good for a burst of it but isn't enough to sustain anything.

[FallenWings]

DRK is hitting 165 per Unleash(GCD) and 275x3(Flood oGCD) and Abyssal/Salted for an extra 220 and 396 respectively(also oGCD).

Delirium lets them hit Quietus 5 times for 231 each hit.

You can get 600 mp per hit of Unleash in Blood weapon for about 4 times thanks to Unleash being strictly 2.5 second recast which totals to 2400. Add in the leftover 1000 MP thanks to our 10k MP total and thats another free 275 AoE oGCD potency. Natural regen and a bonus 600mp from Carve and Spit should the pack last long enough should let you blast out a 5th Flood for another 275 AoE oGCD potency.

Warrior spends the first three GCDs building up Storm's eye(Single target) then rotates into Overpower(143) and (220) ad infinitum with a free Decimate(275) per minute. They can Berserk for 5 GCDs every 90 seconds but then every other tank just crits naturally which closes the gap from any gain on Berserk.

PLD rotates 120-220 with a CoS(369) every 25 seconds and Flight or Fight every minute.

GNB rotates 150-250 with Bow Shock(780) and No Mercy every minute.

In a 30 second pull scenario
DRK will have used 12 Unleashes, 5 Floods, 1 Salted, 1 AD.

WAR will have used 4 Overpowers, 4 Mythril Tempests and 1 Decimate.

PLD will have used 6 Total Eclipses, 6 Prominences and 1 Circle of Scorn.

GNB will have used 6 Demon Slice, 6 Demon Slaughter and 1 Bow Shock.

---------------

DRK
12x 165 (1980)
5x 275 (1375)
1x 396
1x 220.

3971


WAR
4x 143 (572)
4x 220 (880)
1x 250

1702

Or if they have holdover/prepared Storm's Eye

+286(2 Overpowers)
+440(2 Mythril Tempests)

2428

Slap on a generous 996 pot from Berserk if you want to assume the other tanks never crit. (2 Overpowers, 2 Mythril Tempests and 1 Decimate Direct Critting) and Warrior still Falls Short at 3424.

Op>MT is a 33 pot gain over 2x Unleash.
Warrior will then need 16 more GCDs to catch up to DRKs burst in the same in which DRK is still casting 16 more Unleashes.


PLD

6x 120
6x 220
368

2408. Or 2918 with Fight or Flight applied (across all 12 gcds even though it should be 11)

TE>PE is a 10 pot gain over 2x Unleash. PLD will need to cast 100 more GCDs(lol) to catch up to DRK in which DRK would have casted 100 Unleashes.

GNB

6x 150
6x 250
1x 780

3180. Or 3660 with No mercy applied (across all 12 gcds even though it should be 9)

DS>DeS is a 70 pot gain over 2x Unleash. GNB just needs 5 more to overtake DRKs Burst but DRK would have casted 5 more Unleashes. GNB is pretty busted early levels in all fairness and they're relatively even with GNB pulling ahead all tanks in general in early dungeons.

TLDR DRK is fine.

Side note: Bow Shock is gained at 62. Pre 62 GNB would be missing 780 pot every minute from their total which is substantial. DRK and WAR numbers are post Darkside/Storm's Eye respectively(10% Damage buff). Circle of Scorn and Bow Shock are also post FoF and NM respectively.

Add in another 605 for DRK if you want Delirium to be considered. Queitus is 66 pot gain over Unleash(5*66=330) and grants 500mp per cast, 5 casts granting another Flood for 275 free oGCD pot.

[TabrisOmbrelame]

Snip.

He is right.

Ho, you forgot to says that we got Living shadow at level 80 and the 3 AoE around 350 potency it does (So 1050). Great job anyway.

It's not to talk about number, but did you actually look at the burst a DRK can offer at the beginning of the fight ? It's litteraly twice the DPS they can manage to keep, during a fight on a damn dummy.

Beside that, Monster pack seems to literraly dissolve when a DRK do a AoE burst correctly, It's insane. the number of damage that appear is overwhelming.

[Shurrikhan]

"Good" self healing? More like "I will now heal to full in one button press and trivialize the existence of healer and damage intake".

If limited to casual content and to the infrequent result of setup... I've no issue with that.

I mean, just compare that to what's saved by, say, Holy spam, which requires no such setup...

The imbalance in SB dungeons was due to one tank dealing 50% more AoE dps than the other two over any typical run far, far more than it had anything to do with Clemency being lackluster in solo-clutch scenarios compared to SC or DA-AD (though still better than either of those for keeping your dps from dying after the healer takes a swan dive).

[Elixirboy]

In a 30 second pull scenario

WAR will have used Nascent Flash + best AoE abilities available at the time, whether it be Decimate x5, or Infuriate-boosted Decimates, or Overpower/Tempest

[Derio]

We wont see any adjustments to DRK other than potency changes until 6.0

For them to fundamentally move skills around to different levels along with updating the job guide would be an overhaul.

However if anything LD needs adjusting before anything else.

[FallenWings]

In a 30 second pull scenario

WAR will have used Nascent Flash + best AoE abilities available at the time, whether it be Decimate x5, or Infuriate-boosted Decimates, or Overpower/Tempest

That's cool and all but the quick maths were for the rotations sub 70 which was what OP was worried about. Post 72 all tanks begin to rocket up having access to bigger AoE toolkits and it generally balances out based on tank performance in expert roulette dungeons. (Especially beneficial for PLD since they gain Holy Circle and Confetti).

Blah blah DRK gains Flood of Shadow, more MP and Blood gain in Stalwart Soul, Living Shadow and just naturally crits and direct hits. Gunbreaker gains Fated Circle and just naturally crits and direct hits. PLD gains Holy Circle and Confetti and naturally crits and direct hits(1200 AoE potency > 800 AoE potency that can't crit or direct hit).

If limited to casual content and to the infrequent result of setup... I've no issue with that.

I mean, just compare that to what's saved by, say, Holy spam, which requires no such setup...

The imbalance in SB dungeons was due to one tank dealing 50% more AoE dps than the other two over any typical run far, far more than it had anything to do with Clemency being lackluster in solo-clutch scenarios compared to SC or DA-AD (though still better than either of those for keeping your dps from dying after the healer takes a swan dive).

Holy still having the stun component while Art of War and Gravity not even having any additional CC is indeed busted but I wouldn't imbalance the tanks just because WHM made out like a bandit.

WAR being vastly stronger in damage didn't also need the incredible self sustain in the chamber. Fun in breaking dungeons is one thing, fun in being able to bring your class without being vastly inferior to another is also a consideration in which I'm sure SE has taken with the balance of ShB. All tanks should be able to be brought to dungeons without having a significant(IR+Op+Steel Cyclone vs Total Eclipse lol) leg up over another, this is especially good for the health of DF and prevent "ugh! X inferior class is here".

Personally I'd rather be able to bring all tanks to DF or be queued with any tank and not feel the run would be considerably worse for it over feeling temporary joy in being obviously overpowered.

Nascent Flash exists. Nascent Flash is extremely good and requires more setup and thought process with a reasonable cooldown, something WAR currently desperately needs. Abyssal Drain doesn't straight up scale to ludicrous healing anymore and that's fine, DRK is fairer for it considering their now burst king status and feel good durability in TBN.

And I'm sure our healers would appreciate being able to do their primary job and not being further forced into their bare bones DPS rotation as much as possible. Overpowered tanks make for bored green DPS I'd imagine.

[Shurrikhan]

Holy still having the stun component while Art of War and Gravity not even having any additional CC is indeed busted but I wouldn't imbalance the tanks just because WHM made out like a bandit.

But consider, that's a result of AST losing its stun and its external mitigation/suppression kit and SCH losing its slow and external mitigation kit. That's kind of the point: every tanks had something special, albeit only really within their burst phases. Warrior's had the least frequency but the most reliability and burst; DRK's required a minimum number of mobs to exploit significantly, but had half-intervals to hasten its frequency; PLD's, at per 60s, cost the most uptime and therefore had the least simultaneous throughput, but could actually save a group.

For the most part none of these saw any significance in raids, but they were damn fun to have in dungeons, even if it was... glaringly overpowered. I'm just not sure--neither as a tank nor as a healer--that that was in any way a detriment to the game. The monsters that are NF during IR, Req-Clemency, and TBN itself are still great, of course; I just don't think there was anything wrong with how they were -- save perhaps that DA-AD really shouldn't have been so poor a heal in low-mobcount situations.