New Revelations: Time Shenanigans

[Iscah]

Just to be sure everyone's on the same page - I've only played the Twinning once, and I found three datalogs plus the recording played to us afterwards. Is that all, or have I missed anything?

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I also really dislike the implications of a "rewrite your own past without causing a paradox", with or without the effect of erasing the old timeline - particularly as erasing a future timeline (and all the souls within it) doesn't seem all that different to erasing a shard....

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I'm wondering if there might be a "hybrid version" of time travel theories in place, where time is perhaps "stable until irretrievably diverged"? Suppose that in most circumstances spacetime will simply reshape itself to accomodate any time-travel shenanigans and maintain a single stable time loop, but if something particularly impactful is changed then there's a chance it will break and split off into a second timeline.

Perhaps splitting it relies on very specific circumstances or abilities - like the reverse-engineered Alexander mecha that the Ironworks built (and we have now destroyed in the Twinning)?

For that matter, did the Exarch deliberately not explain the machine to us, and just sent us in there knowing we'd smash it and remain none the wiser about its workings?

The specific description of "The Twinning" does seem to suggest it's a one-off split.

(If you look closely in the deeper parts of the dungeon, we can see there are two versions of ourselves just slightly out-of-sync and snapping together again...)

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I'm also not certain the "bad timeline" has been averted yet, even if the exact circumstances leading to the Light-based calamity have been resolved. The Scions' bodies are still unconscious and vulnerable, and there was the scene of Elidibus counselling Varis to take advantage of this... which Zenos has made quite the mess of, but it's still possible that some kind of attack is in motion.

Black Rose is still a "gun on the mantelpiece" waiting to be fired.

The Exarch thinks that undoing the bad future (and himself) is what would release the Scions' souls back to the Source - but it seems to me that getting them back to the Source is probably a key to allowing it to be undone, if it's ever going to be.

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• G’raha aims for “Patch 5.1” of the time block, but hits “Patch 3.5” (which is 90-whatever years offset on the First)

Patch 4.1, I think you mean.

Also he says his aim was off with the timing, but then also says the plan took decades to set up anyway...

There was nothing more Alexander could or should change without making things worse, in its nigh-omniscient opinion. I don’t know if this implies that Alexander was fine with the Eighth Umbral, or if its core being a primal made it somehow helpless to improve the situation, or if Alexander saw the altering of the time block by G’raha and left things to him because it knew how 5.1+ would pan out…

It seemed to me that Alexander is only calculating probabilities - building its own theoretical model of the "4D time block" rather than actually looking at time itself. Though of course that should require a phenomenal amount of knowledge to have all the variables for correct calculation...

In any case, we're told that Alexander wasn't able to predict our future, presumably because we're "special" and the key to whether things will happen or not.

But if Alexander is actually looking at real spacetime (and not simply calculating possibilities of things happening) then did the Ironworks' time travel mechanism do something particularly spacetime-disrupting, or at least visible to Alexander, and this is the reason why it can't see what will happen to us?


Additionally, Alexander didn't conclude we were on the best possible timeline - just that it couldn't act to change it without causing other consequences that would be just as bad or worse.

I am still going for the part where Exarch and G'raha Tia may end up with a Old Spock and Young Spock relationship and timeline theory.

Exarch remains behind in the Crystal Tower thus aiding Ironworks to master the CT sooner than his old timeline (like Old Spock) while G'raha Tia becomes a "Trust" that adventures with WoL and become a new member of the Scions so he can experience the Adventure that will one day define him and his own life similar to how Exarch's adventure in his old timeline through the areas of 2.0 to 4.X to find the stories of WoL ended up defining what he will become (like Young Spock).

I feel like the "optional-ness" of the Crystal Tower storyline is a barrier to getting young G'raha reinvolved. For story-structure reasons I think he has to remain in the tower until some point beyond the game's time bubble.

I think we are forgetting the fact that alexander did acknowledge strains of history different than our timeline. We got baited by Roundrox's actions, but Dai told us that Alexander could see all the possibilities and futures, that imho implies that alternate realities do exist sadly.

As I understood it, they were only predictions made by Alexander - not things that had ever actually come to pass.

[Fenral]

I feel like the "optional-ness" of the Crystal Tower storyline is a barrier to getting young G'raha reinvolved. For story-structure reasons I think he has to remain in the tower until some point beyond the game's time bubble.

He easily falls into Esitinien territory at this point, and can use the extra Alisaie handwave of "I've read so much about you that I feel I know you already." And let us also never forget that Urianger (and by extension Alisaie and Alphinaud) can now literally be in multiple dimensions at once. Though that could just be an Elezen thing.

Exarch's last line of 5.0 is "This is no time to be sleeping, G'raha Tia!" and it comes after a long interior monologue in which he realizes his dream is within reach but he can't journey to the Source himself. I think there's only one real interpretation for that. He's also vague enough about his origins if you haven't done CT, such that Source!G'raha could simply be treated as if he was sealed in beforehand without changing too much (though he would presumably still know Krile).

I had completely forgotten about Old Spock and Young Spock, but I now have a feeling that is what they might go for, assuming opening CT on the Source doesn't break the last bit of causality holding him in our timeline.

[Valenth]

snippet regarding time travel

But in The Twinning we see how essentially Omega and Alexander are married together. If we imagine that Alexander is only able to alter the 4D block we are in, and Omega able to travel between worlds/dimensions/through-the-Rift... perhaps what the future Ironworks created is a device able to travel between 4D blocks as well. These blocks for all intents and purposes would essentially just be another dimension if you don't try to think too hard on it.

In other words, what I think happened is that when G'raha was sent to the 'past' he was sent to the past of another 4D block essentially, which would explain why his existence hasn't disappeared. He is part of 4D block we players live in, but didn't have his origin in. The future from which he originated would still exist, but in another 4D block then were the game takes place in.

[EdwinLi]

He easily falls into Esitinien territory at this point, and can use the extra Alisaie handwave of "I've read so much about you that I feel I know you already." And let us also never forget that Urianger (and by extension Alisaie and Alphinaud) can now literally be in multiple dimensions at once. Though that could just be an Elezen thing.

Exarch's last line of 5.0 is "This is no time to be sleeping, G'raha Tia!" and it comes after a long interior monologue in which he realizes his dream is within reach but he can't journey to the Source himself. I think there's only one real interpretation for that. He's also vague enough about his origins if you haven't done CT, such that Source!G'raha could simply be treated as if he was sealed in beforehand without changing too much (though he would presumably still know Krile).

I had completely forgotten about Old Spock and Young Spock, but I now have a feeling that is what they might go for, assuming opening CT on the Source doesn't break the last bit of causality holding him in our timeline.

Ya there is a chance Young G'raha Tia will join us as he is not bound to the Crystal Tower as Old G'raha Tia is. Old G'raha Tia only did so because he needed to live over 100 years to make certain the plan worked.

Young G'raha Tia will still be not bound to CT once he is awakened and chances are he will need to go on the journey with WoL in the Source side of the storyline to discover his powers to bring the Scion's back to the Source or in some Big Happy accident, fuse both the lands of the First into a Source that creates a new continent that consist of all the areas we go to in the First in the end of 5.3 as a side effect of bring the Scion's souls back to their body in the Source.

I hope for 2nd option because it will give them a actual reason for Ryne to stay with the Scions since as a member of the First she cannot enter the Source and that would be sad that Thancred has to become separated from Ryne when he just became a Father to her.

[Remedi]

I'm also not certain the "bad timeline" has been averted yet, even if the exact circumstances leading to the Light-based calamity have been resolved. The Scions' bodies are still unconscious and vulnerable, and there was the scene of Elidibus counselling Varis to take advantage of this... which Zenos has made quite the mess of, but it's still possible that some kind of attack is in motion.

Black Rose is still a "gun on the mantelpiece" waiting to be fired.

The Exarch thinks that undoing the bad future (and himself) is what would release the Scions' souls back to the Source - but it seems to me that getting them back to the Source is probably a key to allowing it to be undone, if it's ever going to be.

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As I understood it, they were only predictions made by Alexander - not things that had ever actually come to pass.

I dind't consider that possibility, it would make sense.

As for the first part of the quote. I actually was thinking about it, until Elidubus and the ascians aren't dealt with, the eight umbral calamity will remain a possibility which means that we have simply delayed judgement day and not averted it.

Since the creation of the time machine was to avert the eight umbral calamity, until THAT is averted completely we could be still in peril

[Cilia]

Zenos has thrown a wrench into everyone's plans - he's killed Varis, who was willing to use Black Rose, and at the same time denounced its use as cowardly. Even if Zenos takes over as ruler of Garlemald, I seriously doubt he'd be willing to use Black Rose to win a war - not for ethical reasons, mind, but because it deprives him of "prey."

If anything, I see Gaius being grievously wounded by Zenos and having his fighting days put behind him, then leading the Empire into the reforms so many people want while fighting against an insurgency led by Zenos and his followers. This might last from 5.1 - 5.3, or form the core of 6.0's story.

[Iscah]

Exarch's last line of 5.0 is "This is no time to be sleeping, G'raha Tia!" and it comes after a long interior monologue in which he realizes his dream is within reach but he can't journey to the Source himself. I think there's only one real interpretation for that. He's also vague enough about his origins if you haven't done CT, such that Source!G'raha could simply be treated as if he was sealed in beforehand without changing too much (though he would presumably still know Krile).

From everything I've seen of how the game handles optional stories, Estinien is the one exception to the rule - and if they're going to make further exceptions then we really should have Unukalhai involved in the MSQ by now.

Estinien is also in a different kind of situation, because he is essentially in the same state at the start and end of the dragoon questline, while G'raha is drastically changed.

Also if you watch the default (no CT progress) version of the Exarch's conversation with Urianger, there's a line where he says that the WoL hasn't met G'raha yet, which is why he's keeping his identity concealed so that first meeting between us won't be "soured" by the events he intends to happen here. If they were going to mess with their usual approach to the timeline and say "Crystal Tower has happened even if you didn't play it" then it would make more sense to do it there.

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On the "no time to be sleeping, G'raha Tia!" line... I did start writing about that last night but I felt like it was maybe a bit off-topic since I do have a different, non-time-travely interpretation for that - since I was working from the starting assumption that he can't be let out of the tower in the present day, so I tried to think what else he could mean.

I actually think it could be more metaphorical, especially if you consider his comments post-MSQ:

[Menu: What would you like to do?]
> Call him G'raha Tia.

CRYSTAL EXARCH
...!
How strangely that name rings to the ears. Long as I have been the Crystal Exarch, it has ceased to be an act. This is very much who I am now.
Yet when you speak to me as the young man I once was, he cannot help but stir within.
And the old days come flooding back. The days when we sought the truth of this tower together...
You were an inspiration to me then. Though I did not think it possible, you have become even more of an inspiration to me now.

So we can gather that, even though of course G'raha and the Exarch are the same person, he perceives them as different identities from different parts of his life - and he has been the Exarch for a hundred years now, with his 'real' identity left long behind and unable to be used, apparently all so he can keep it a secret from us when we finally arrive!

With his long mission over, it seems that at last he feels like he can be himself at least a little more. He returns to the Crystarium with his face unhidden, and doesn't have to maintain his "mysterious sage" persona like he did before.

So after all this time, G'raha Tia - his younger, passionate personality - is finally able to 'wake up' and exist again.

I'm not sure if it's stretching a little, but I think it makes more sense than him trying to call to his physical past self who is in stasis in another plane of reality.



Also I copied out his monologue from the farewell scene.

When I was a boy, many long years ago, I yearned to stand tall as the heroes of eld.
But like a fool seeking to pluck the stars from the heavens, my every attempt to reprise their deeds fell short...
And then one day, an all but forgotten dream from my youth stood before me, in the flesh.
A hero who looked to the horizon and beyond, and saw I knew not what.
All I knew was that I would give anything to stand at that hero's side.

*we pass through the portal. He reaches out to touch it, but is zapped by it*

CRYSTAL EXARCH
Would that it were so easy...
The glory of the heavens was ever beyond the grasp of those who never thought to reach for it. But if I have gained anything from all this, it is the courage to stretch out my hand.
Do you hear me, G'raha Tia? This is no time for sleeping!

Everything else seems to reflect his experience at the current point in time - he aspires to stand by the hero he remembers from long ago in his youth, and has courage now that he didn't possess before.

Waking up young G'raha in the tower wouldn't achieve that aspiration for the Exarch as we know him - it would just create a split timeline.

I take it as a sign he'll be continuing to have an active role in the patch quests, and maybe we'll finally get to go on an adventure together where he doesn't have to conceal his identity from us, and he can just enjoy it.

[Annana]

if they're going to make further exceptions then we really should have Unukalhai involved in the MSQ by now.

Not sure when his dialogue was updated, but he does actually mention that he "heard that you would be undertaking travel between worlds" or something close. I have a feeling that he'll be relevant in the patch content of Shadowbringers.

[Seraphor]

But in The Twinning we see how essentially Omega and Alexander are married together. If we imagine that Alexander is only able to alter the 4D block we are in, and Omega able to travel between worlds/dimensions/through-the-Rift... perhaps what the future Ironworks created is a device able to travel between 4D blocks as well. These blocks for all intents and purposes would essentially just be another dimension if you don't try to think too hard on it.

In other words, what I think happened is that when G'raha was sent to the 'past' he was sent to the past of another 4D block essentially, which would explain why his existence hasn't disappeared. He is part of 4D block we players live in, but didn't have his origin in. The future from which he originated would still exist, but in another 4D block then were the game takes place in.

This is what I'm going with as well, the marriage of time-travel and dimension-travel allowing us to jump between timelines.

[ShinShimon]

If Tycoon had the power to rewrite the 4d matrix of the universe, is it really a problem that future G'raha still exists? The CT and G'raha were edited into the First 10 years after the Flood. Their presence from that point on is just the new 4d reality, and we wouldn't expect it to change unless some other 4d power edits things again.

Thinking some more on it, it is a bit fucky... but I feel like this is the right way to think about it. The 4d block was edited by a force that exists apart from it, and even if to 3d plebs like us it seems like causality is being violated, it jusr so happens that we live in a 4d timeblock where there are/were/always were going to be an extra CT and G'raha that looked and thought they were from an apocalyptic future.

...I think. Fuck time travel.