Demi-Summoner Idea

[Kalise]

Edit: Updated 27/04/19

* Added Radiant Shield back in as Ruby Carbuncle's utility skill.

So I wanted to follow up on my previous thoughts about Summoners and include some other things. Also see my Pet AI Rework Suggestion which I believe could aid with a more pet-focused Summoner design.

The driving force of this idea is to attempt to encapture more of the classic feeling of a Summoner, where you bring out this powerful summon that aids you. Whilst trying to maintain some of the core gameplay that is seen with the current iteration.

Skill/Trait changes:

* Egi summons gained through the quests at level 30, 35 and 45 are replaced with Demi summons.

* As such, quest text and models used in cutscenes are replaced with "Demi-" and the new Demi models, which will now more closely resemble the Primals they're based off.

* Demi models default size should be about 40-50% the size of the actual Primal.

* /summonsize small command will make the Demi's about 30-40% larger than the current Egi's.

* /summonsize large command will make Demi's about 70-80% the size of the actual Primal.

* Carbuncles are now the default, always out pets. They are available in three flavours - Emerald, Topaz and Ruby. Ruby Carbuncle is unlocked at level 30. With the Summon III skill icon being updated to reflect that.

* Rouse becomes upgraded by Dreadwyrm Trance and the effect of DWT now upgrades your Ruin III into Burning Strike/Rock Buster/Wind Blade/Wyrmwave depending on which pet is currently active in addition to Rouse's normal effect.

* Enhanced Enkindle trait replaced by Enhanced Trance making Ruin IV upgrade procs reduce the CD on Dreadwyrm Trance by 5 seconds.

* Enkindle now has a 90s CD.

* Sustain is now a trait that causes your pet to continuously regenerate life.

* Physick now scales based on INT for Summoners.

Pet skill changes:

* All pets now have an auto attack (As referenced in my AI thread)

* Pets Reuse timers are now based on your own. With their primary skills now being cast when you use certain skills.

Emerald Carbuncle:

* Gust is now instant cast and used when you cast Ruin, Bio or Miasma

* Downburst no longer has a CD and is now used when you cast Tri-Bind

Topaz Carbuncle:

* Gouge is now used when you cast Ruin, Bio or Miasma

* Shining Topaz no longer has a CD and is now used when you cast Tri-Bind

* Curl now also generates a shield for all party members equal to 15% of their maximum HP.

Ruby Carbuncle:

* Primary ST skill is "Searing Slash" - Deals a two fold attack with potency 45. It is used when you cast Ruin, Bio or Miasma

* Primary AoE skill is "Ruby Cyclone" - Deals a four fold attack with potency 20 to all nearby targets. It is used when you cast Tri-Bind

* CC skill is "Cauterize" - Deals damage with potency of 80 and silences the target for 1s. 30s CD.

* Utility skill is "Radiant Shield" - Delivers an attack with a potency of 50 every time damage is suffered. Additional Effect: Increases target's physical damage taken by 2%

Demi-Ifrit:

* Primary ST skill is "Incinerate", causing high damage in a cone in front of him. It is used when you cast Ruin, Bio or Miasma

* Primary AoE skill is "Eruption", it is used when you cast Tri-Bind

* Upon casting Ruin IV he will cast a Radiant Plume on the target.

* Enkindle causes him to use Hellfire dealing massive AoE damage.

Demi-Titan

* Primary skill is "Landslide", which is a line AoE attack (No knockback though) that is used when you cast Ruin, Bio or Miasma

* Primary AoE skill is "Weight of the Land" which is used when you cast Tri-Bind.

* Upon casting Ruin IV he will use Mountain Buster on the target.

* Enkindle causes him to use Earthen Fury dealing massive AoE damage.

Demi-Garuda

* Primary ST skill is "Friction" which deals damage to the target and enemies around them, it is used when you cast Ruin, Bio or Miasma

* Primary AoE skill is "Great Tornado" which is used when you cast Tri-Bind

* Upon casting Ruin IV she will use Slipstream on the target, which is a line AoE skill that also stuns targets hit.

* Enkindle causes her to use Aerial Blast which deals massive AoE damage and also sends out a group of Razor Plumes which fly into enemies hit by Aerial Blast and explode dealing additional damage.

Demi-Bahamut

* Primary ST skill is "Wyrmwave" and is used when you cast Ruin, Bio or Miasma

* Primary AoE skill is "Akh Morn" and is used when you cast Tri-Bind

* Enkindle causes him to use "Megaflare" which destroys the planet deals massive damage to the target and nearby enemies.

Aetherflow Changes:

* Consuming Aether causes a stack of Aethertrail Attunement.

* At 3 stacks of Aethertrail Attunement, the summon skill for your active pet is upgraded and when used will summon a Demi-Primal of the relevant type (Emerald > Garuda, Topaz > Titan, Ruby > Ifrit)

* After each Primal Summon you gain a stack of Dreadwyrm Aether. 3 stacks of Dreadwyrm Aether are consumed to summon Demi-Bahamut. (This delays Bahamut usage by 1 Aetherflow CD, but is made up for by each Aetherflow CD dealing more damage via Demi-Summons). Dreadwyrm Aether persists through death.

[Rollout]

I would honestly prefer it if there were ONE Carbuncle summon. We really don't need a tank summon after ARR, since the damage you output is so high that Titan-egi can't even hold aggro. Just make it a single Carbuncle we summon and we can change what type it is with a glamour option. Then just make us change that Carbuncle into Demi-Ifrit, Demi-Titan and Demi-Garuda with different button presses, and make all three of them just be damage dealers.

Carbuncle can use ranged attacks and strives to stick by you. You hit "Summon Demi-Ifrit" and Carbuncle turns into Demi-Ifrit and does his charge, getting into melee range and laying into the enemies automatically with the moves it would use, like the conal fire breath and standard swipes. After forty seconds, he turns back into Carbuncle, then you quickly hit "Summon Demi-Titan," who, lacking any sort of charge-like move, needs to be in melee range to hit, but since Carbuncle is in melee range from the Demi-Ifrit phase, he's in a good position. Another forty seconds pass, and Demi-Titan turns back into Carbuncle, but you hit "Summon Demi-Garuda," who then does her classic jump, showering the area with Feather Rain, rejoining your side and attacking from a range.

That's forty seconds in total for all three, 40 x 3 = 120, which is two minutes, lining up to summon Demi-Bahamut perfectly.

[Kalise]

We really don't need a tank summon after ARR, since the damage you output is so high that Titan-egi can't even hold aggro.

That's not true.

If you go full burst with Ruin III > Tri-Disaster > Fester to open, before he's got in range at all. Then yeah, you pull off him.

Otherwise, it's not too bad. I use Titan-Egi in Eureka quite a lot, he tanks stuff just fine (It's just a PITA to keep spamming Sustain all the time and having crappy Physick be crappy for self sustain >.>)

Of course, Demi-Bahamut wrecks his ability to tank by disabling him and wiping his enmity... But you can play around that and use Bahamut as a finisher for targets.

I would honestly prefer it if there were ONE Carbuncle summon.

I feel that such a thing would limit SMN, especially given that Carbuncles can be utilized to bring utility - Such as the case in this idea where Emerald provides Magic Resistance debuff making it ideal for Caster/PLD compositions. Topaz provides defense for the party via a Shield (Which will also be able to generate LB gauge) making it a nice thing to pull out for Progression raiding and for particularly potent AoE attacks. Ruby provides in this case a Direct Hit boost which is a more universal damage boost.

Then just make Demi-Ifrit, Demi-Titan and Demi-Garuda just standard attackers.

Once you've summoned all three of them, you can summon Demi-Bahamut, then repeat the rotation.

Isn't that kind of boring?

Also, basically, just Bard?

Like, I toyed with the idea of having to summon each of the 3 to get Bahamut... But in the end it just kept feeling too similar to Bard's songs which they rotate between.

I especially wanted to try and increase the synergy between Summon and Summoner, hence having iconic Primal skills couple with your own attacks (Also, to bypass any dodgy AI)

[Rollout]

That's not true.

If you go full burst with Ruin III > Tri-Disaster > Fester to open, before he's got in range at all. Then yeah, you pull off him.

Otherwise, it's not too bad. I use Titan-Egi in Eureka quite a lot, he tanks stuff just fine (It's just a PITA to keep spamming Sustain all the time and having crappy Physick be crappy for self sustain >.>)

Of course, Demi-Bahamut wrecks his ability to tank by disabling him and wiping his enmity... But you can play around that and use Bahamut as a finisher for targets.

Eureka is about the only place I would think to use Titan-egi, but that isn't how you should balance the game. If anything, I use Ifrit-egi or Garuda-egi in open world to kill the mob faster.

I feel that such a thing would limit SMN, especially given that Carbuncles can be utilized to bring utility - Such as the case in this idea where Emerald provides Magic Resistance debuff making it ideal for Caster/PLD compositions. Topaz provides defense for the party via a Shield (Which will also be able to generate LB gauge) making it a nice thing to pull out for Progression raiding and for particularly potent AoE attacks. Ruby provides in this case a Direct Hit boost which is a more universal damage boost.

I feel like making three different Carbuncle all with different types of utility would result in either one of two things... the class being too strong due to overabundant utility or people only using one type of Carbuncle, because it provides the most rDPS.

Isn't that kind of boring?

Also, basically, just Bard?

Like, I toyed with the idea of having to summon each of the 3 to get Bahamut... But in the end it just kept feeling too similar to Bard's songs which they rotate between.

I especially wanted to try and increase the synergy between Summon and Summoner, hence having iconic Primal skills couple with your own attacks (Also, to bypass any dodgy AI)

Yeah, and Bard is FUN to play. I'm not saying that Summoner isn't fun, but I strongly feel like Summoner doesn't feel like a Summoner, outside of summoning Demi-Bahamut.

I want the class to FEEL like a Summoner, even if it ends up playing similarly to Bard in some ways.

Though, when I was discussing the similar idea I had with my friends and static members, I also suggested they remove the DoTs from Summoner and give them more Summon-focused abilities, then give Scholar Bio III and Miasma III. Because then it would make sense for Miasma II to be on Scholar, but Summoner gets Miasma III????? But that's just my personal opinion on the matter.

[Kalise]

Eureka is about the only place I would think to use Titan-egi, but that isn't how you should balance the game. If anything, I use Ifrit-egi or Garuda-egi in open world to kill the mob faster.

Having a tank is also useful in other areas of the game. Heck, I relied upon him to do the job quests. He's also useful while doing FATEs solo, doing PotD/HoH etc.

Basically, Titan-Egi being a tank is actually useful if you're not just doing Duties in parties and aren't at end-of expansion gear.

I feel like making three different Carbuncle all with different types of utility would result in either one of two things... the class being too strong due to overabundant utility or people only using one type of Carbuncle, because it provides the most rDPS.

You do realise that the current Egi's have different utilities right? With Garuda providing the same 10% magic resistance debuff as Emerald Carbuncle and Ifrit providing Radiant Shield which is a physical damage increase debuff.

With them being pretty close in effectiveness.

This neither makes SMN too strong because of overabundant utility, nor makes people only use one type of Carbuncle.

Yeah, and Bard is FUN to play. I'm not saying that Summoner isn't fun, but I strongly feel like Summoner doesn't feel like a Summoner, outside of summoning Demi-Bahamut.

So you want to make Summoner feel more like Summoner by making it Bard?

Though, when I was discussing the similar idea I had with my friends and static members, I also suggested they remove the DoTs from Summoner and give them more Summon-focused abilities, then give Scholar Bio III and Miasma III. Because then it would make sense for Miasma II to be on Scholar, but Summoner gets Miasma III????? But that's just my personal opinion on the matter.

I could get into the DoTs debate, but I tried to leave most of the core gameplay of current SMN intact.

This meant keeping DoTs and skills like Fester, Bane and Tri-Disaster.

Since, honestly, the core gameplay of SMN isn't bad. Build into burst phases with DWT and then get ultra-burst phase with Demi-Bahamut.

Which is why I tried to recreate DWT phases but in a more "Summoner"-y style, where your burst phases are instead summoning Demi-Primals to come and blow stuff up for a short while. With the end reward ending up being the big bad Bahamut to come and deal huge damage.

With in-between burst phases being the standard DoT and utility management while building into the next burst phase.

[Rollout]

Having a tank is also useful in other areas of the game. Heck, I relied upon him to do the job quests. He's also useful while doing FATEs solo, doing PotD/HoH etc.

Basically, Titan-Egi being a tank is actually useful if you're not just doing Duties in parties and aren't at end-of expansion gear.

There would obviously need to be some adjustments for the job quests to make it work. I admittedly don't remember many of the pre-SB job quests, so I don't remember how much you need Topaz/Titan.

If you're doing enough damage thanks to the summons, then you won't even need a tank. And if it's something that's so strong that you'd need a tank, then it's probably something you shouldn't be soloing in the first place, no? FFXIV is an MMO, after all, so ask your fellow player for a hand.

You do realise that the current Egi's have different utilities right? With Garuda providing the same 10% magic resistance debuff as Emerald Carbuncle and Ifrit providing Radiant Shield which is a physical damage increase debuff.

With them being pretty close in effectiveness.

This neither makes SMN too strong because of overabundant utility, nor makes people only use one type of Carbuncle.

Yes, I'm aware and the community has mostly decided that Ifrit on Sic is just better, with high end players using Garuda and toggling Sic to get her to use Contagion.

So you want to make Summoner feel more like Summoner by making it Bard?

I want to make Summoner feel more like a Summoner by making the Summons the primary focus, yes. Though the theme of the rotation might be the same, they could add abilities to the Summoner to empower the Demi-summons or command them to use their other attacks as oGCDs.

I could get into the DoTs debate, but I tried to leave most of the core gameplay of current SMN intact.

This meant keeping DoTs and skills like Fester, Bane and Tri-Disaster.

Since, honestly, the core gameplay of SMN isn't bad. Build into burst phases with DWT and then get ultra-burst phase with Demi-Bahamut.

Which is why I tried to recreate DWT phases but in a more "Summoner"-y style, where your burst phases are instead summoning Demi-Primals to come and blow stuff up for a short while. With the end reward ending up being the big bad Bahamut to come and deal huge damage.

With in-between burst phases being the standard DoT and utility management while building into the next burst phase.

As I said, I don't think Summoner, at the base level as a job, is a bad concept. Rather, it just doesn't FEEL like a Summoner, it feels like a DoT mage that has a pet. I only feel like a summoner every two minutes, when I bring out Demi-Bahamut. Hell, half the time, I'm not even that concerned with my pet, since they're immune to most AoE damage, outside of any tankbusters that have splash damage.

[Kalise]

And if it's something that's so strong that you'd need a tank, then it's probably something you shouldn't be soloing in the first place, no? FFXIV is an MMO, after all, so ask your fellow player for a hand.

That's terrible logic for balancing stuff.

If you use that logic you can remove all offensive skills from WHM's and then claim "It's an MMO, get someone else to help you!"

As it stands, Topaz Carbuncle/Titan-Egi exist in the game. They're useful to the players who find uses for them.

Removing them because YOU simply want to make Summons boring, seems silly.

Yes, I'm aware and the community has mostly decided that Ifrit on Sic is just better, with high end players using Garuda and toggling Sic to get her to use Contagion.

Well... You just disproved your own point... Garuda with Contagion management is the highest rDPS.

Ifrit is better if you don't utilize Contagion well, or at all.

That's 2 distinct summons to use. Compared to what? "Putting the focus onto Summons" by actively removing choice of summons and making new Demi's be auto-attack bots?

At least Bard's songs have impacts on your actual rotation when you use them. With WP getting you to use Pitch Perfect when it stacks up and with MB giving you the Bloodletter/Rain of Death resets.

It sounds like your suggesting that "Demi-Summons" become basically like Army's Paeon, ever BRD's least favourite song because it's simply a passive boost to damage (Not even particularly good comparatively to other Songs too)

I want to make Summoner feel more like a Summoner by making the Summons the primary focus, yes. Though the theme of the rotation might be the same, they could add abilities to the Summoner to empower the Demi-summons or command them to use their other attacks as oGCDs.

Or... They could not make Summons auto-attack bots?

You know... Like in my suggestion? Which has the focus on Summons, including 3 basic Summons to utilize between summoning Demi's. Which has room to keep them having their other attacks as well as adding in new ones to activate (Much like how we make Bahamut use Akh Morn currently)

As I said, I don't think Summoner, at the base level as a job, is a bad concept. Rather, it just doesn't FEEL like a Summoner, it feels like a DoT mage that has a pet. I only feel like a summoner every two minutes, when I bring out Demi-Bahamut. Hell, half the time, I'm not even that concerned with my pet, since they're immune to most AoE damage, outside of any tankbusters that have splash damage.

Well... That's literally the point that I was trying to address with my idea in my Original Post.

I recommend you check it out.

It does everything you're looking for.

It puts the focus onto Summons.

It enables you to empower your Summons (Via Rouse which is tied into Dreadwyrm Trance as well as Enkindle which is on a lower CD)

It lets you tell your summons to use abilities (Via use of your own abilities, mitigating the low potencies on your own skills by having the rest of the potency brought by your summons)

It lets you feel like a Summoner more frequently, by letting you summon a Demi every minute and Bahamut every 3 minutes (Meaning a total of 4 Demi's per 3 minutes) - Without having this "Perma-Demi" style that would devalue the impact of summoning a Demi-Primal to the equivalent of a BRD swapping songs.

[Jandor]

So just to check I read everything right.

• You have your base pet.
• You can upgrade to a bigger 'demi' pet at 3 stacks.
• DWT is now a cooldown that changes your filler spell to a primal themed one.
• 3 demi summons unlocks Bahamut.

That about right? If so, I love the general theme you've got going on.

I'd personally prefer to keep the default egi (with carbuncle glam option) and have them upgrade into the bigger demi versions, I'm also iffy on giving commands through your own abilities, the pet switching to AoE when you do would be ok but in general I prefer to give proper commands.

Other than that, seems pretty solid to me. Sort of similar to my own ideas I've posted in the past .

[Grimoire-M]

It seems solid to me. I’ll mirror the carbuncle complaint too. Not because I dislike Carbuncles, but because this progression directly conflicts with the ARR and HW summoner quest lines. You’ll have to go with the Demi-egi route as a result. To clarify, I mean Demi-egi during the DWT window, regular egi during the interim.

The direct hit buff on Ifrit is also problematic. Part of what keeps the current Contagion and Radiant shield in line is that the debuffs are mutually exclusive. Because of that and their respective damage contributions Garuda’s contagion is allowed to be stronger. Ifrit’s direct hit buff is strong enough to beat that iteration of contagion due to being universally applicable. I understand the pet auto attacks attempt to address this somewhat but you’d have to make Garuda’s potencies equal or stronger in some cases to balance it out. A better approach would be to stick to the current phys/magic split.

Beyond that I wonder about filler and the aetherflow lockouts still as they weren’t addressed but given you’re trying to emulate Bahamut I assume that’s the intent. I do agree that the pets need distinct filler, so some idea of what you had in mind after the DWT window would be appreciated too. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to put forward some ideas there. And it gets at some of what Rollout’s after (different things to do based on your pet) without being a Bard clone.

[Kalise]

I'm also iffy on giving commands through your own abilities, the pet switching to AoE when you do would be ok but in general I prefer to give proper commands.

The general idea is to make the main "Filler" skills be used via your own abilities.

Meanwhile, other skills, such as the Carbuncle's CC/Utility skills being used as its own skill.

Though, for the Demi's I've not (Yet) added any non-filler skill outside of their Enkindle moves. Though, I'm still considering a change to Enkindle so as to make it so that you can more freely decide to Enkindle on all your Demi's... Perhaps if it was made a Deathflare style "Finisher" for the summon duration...

But generally, the things that will be auto-cast while you're spamming your rotation, are just the things that you'd never command your pet to use anyway.

Not because I dislike Carbuncles, but because this progression directly conflicts with the ARR and HW summoner quest lines.

I guess you missed literally the first 2 points in the original post...

The direct hit buff on Ifrit is also problematic.

True... I went back and re-implemented Radiant Shield. It's possible that Ruby Carbuncle could also take a slight potency hit or Emerald get a potency buff too, given that Ruby is designed in a way to proc more Ruin IV's.

Beyond that I wonder about filler and the aetherflow lockouts still as they weren’t addressed but given you’re trying to emulate Bahamut I assume that’s the intent. I do agree that the pets need distinct filler, so some idea of what you had in mind after the DWT window would be appreciated too.

Outside of the DWT window... It'd play the exact same way as it does now.

Which is the point of how I've addressed things, which is to make overall gameplay remain similar, but just more "Summoner" themed.

Any further changes to Summoner, would be independent of this suggestion - Such as adding in new skills that work off your summon, altering the DoTs in some way, adding new skills to use in between Ruin spam etc.

These things can always be addressed in standard gameplay designs (Such as level 70-80 skills and 5.0 combat system rework)

Outside of this fact, there is one other change to "DWT" windows, which is well, the reworked DWT itself. As an independent CD with CDR from Ruin IV procs... It would be something to manage.

I might perhaps try and put some more thought into its mechanical function to make it a more interesting maintenance buff (Sort of like how Blood of the Dragon and Huton are maintained through gameplay rather than just re-applying the CD skill) - Perhaps with more emphasis on working with your summon(s)