Disappointed in the turn the Garlean Empire has taken

[Anonymoose]

I was ready to accept this "what has really changed?" angle until Varis came out also in favour of the Rejoining.

Varis: The intel and insight to know the Eorzean Alliance's history in the context of their revisionism and hypocrisy.
Also Varis: Straight from repeating Allag's mistakes to repeating Thordan's mistakes.

[Daralii]

I was ready to accept this "what has really changed?" angle until Varis came out also in favour of the Rejoining. I wanted Varis to be "the founding may have been a lie, but the Cause is still just and we need to remove the Ascians to resume our noble goal of curbing the Eikon threat". That could have redeemed in somewhat in my eyes - the Empire is based in a lie, but it has taken that lie and made it their truth. But with Varis at the parlay meeting we now know that's not the case.

I agree this feels contrived as a way to help resolve both threats at the same time. I am also trying to keep an open mind, but just disappointed for now as it's very fresh in my mind having just finished the MSQ yesterday.

But it's also entirely possible that Varis was either possessed or trying to force the Alliance's hand in something. It was in the same patch that his secret Allagan cloning lab was established, and had Solus musing about possession in the same cutscene. The parlay also had a lot of emphasis on moths and flickering lights, which was a very weird thing to repeatedly cut to and hold on if it didn't have any significance.

[filkry]

But it's also entirely possible that Varis was either possessed or trying to force the Alliance's hand in something. It was in the same patch that his secret Allagan cloning lab was established, and had Solus musing about possession in the same cutscene. The parlay also had a lot of emphasis on moths and flickering lights, which was a very weird thing to repeatedly cut to and hold on if it didn't have any significance.

This is true, and we also get the strange scare cut at the end of the expansion where Varis' face goes all dark and horror movie. On the other hand, I refuse to believe Varis is possessed because between Zenos' possessed body and Solus being a bunch of walking clones, I can't bear the idea that the third and final major Garlean character is also not what they seem.

[RenewalXVII]

Ultimately, I think keeping an open mind is the best way forward. Like, Solus has done nothing of substance since revealing himself to the player. 4.5 and especially 4.56 has been noted as rather thin on strong story beats. My instincts point to 5.0 doing a lot of storybuilding to push us into a place where both Garlean and Ascian storylines can be tied up cleanly. We're in a period where the writers are deliberately teasing us and playing with our expectations by keeping critical information out of reach.

It's worth pointing out that ShB's story arc began with 4.4, and that expecting the first twist and revelation of that arc to be the only or most impactful is a little short-sighted. 5.0 is bound to bring a lot more to the table.

[Astarotha]

i think the revelation the succession war was completely intentional broke him somewhat, before then he seemed much more in control because regardless of ascian involvement he could at least TRY to lead the empire to its ideals, but to find out the empire and by extension he ultimately is meaningless because the ascians can at a moment throw everything he works for out the window couldnt have been fun

i have 2 theories here, hes embracing the mustache twirling villain role in a bid to galvanize the alliance into forcing the ascians from the empire (essentially destroy the old order to allow him to remake it in his purpose) and the indiscriminate nature of chemical warfare will serve as another rallying point, or hes gone completely batshit crazy and logic has left the building, my moneys on the first option cause his switch from pointing out all the flaws in the alliances policies to "IMMA GENOCIDE ALL THE THINGS MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA" is far too abrupt, even for final fantasy which loves its "surprise! i was the true villain all along!!!" twists

[Jennah]

I can't bear the idea that the third and final major Garlean character is also not what they seem.

Well, there's always Cid. He's exactly what he seems. Right?
He's always there, involved in every major raid and a bunch of primals and sidequests to boot ... helping us solve all of the world's problems ... even ... even if doing so is going to lead to another Flood of Light.
Hell. Cid's been a damn Ascian this whole time too, hasn't he?
[This is a joke. Probably.]

[filkry]

Well, there's always Cid. He's exactly what he seems. Right?
He's always there, involved in every major raid and a bunch of primals and sidequests to boot ... helping us solve all of the world's problems ... even ... even if doing so is going to lead to another Flood of Light.
Hell. Cid's been a damn Ascian this whole time too, hasn't he?
[This is a joke. Probably.]

I guess I mean a Garlean character who hasn't rejected the Garlean "noble conquest" cause.

[Iscah]

I mean, that's why Cid left, because he wanted to stay true to the Garlean motto "Freedom through technology" when the rest of the Garleans where wanting to gain power and subjugation through any means necessary (Which has recently involved trying to bypass their inherent inability to manipulate Aether...)

Is that a Garlean motto? Unless it's been borrowed by the Ironworks and I'm not aware of the original conversation, it seems to be just for them.

From A Performance For the Ages:

CID
Wedge, do you recall our company's creed?

WEDGE
Y-Yes, Chief! It's, um, “Freedom through Technology”?

CID
Exactly. Freedom. When we forsook our homeland, we swore that we would have no truck with machines that could be used to promote tyranny.

[Kalise]

Is that a Garlean motto? Unless it's been borrowed by the Ironworks and I'm not aware of the original conversation, it seems to be just for them.

From A Performance For the Ages:

I'll have to dig around a bit... But I'm sure it's mentioned a few times in the banter between Cid and Nero.

I think it's when Cid is justifying his leaving of the Empire.

With the motto then being taken up by the Ironworks to prevent anyone in the employ from being lured into attempting anything Garlean-esk (This includes Nero after his services are purchased by the Ironworks for the hunt of Omega...)

[Jaywalker]

Haven't gotten to read every reply in the thread, but I'll offer a possible spin here.

The danger we the player are being confronted with repeatedly is extremism, authoritarianism, and (in a way) perfect order. Even the Ascians believe that they're trying to save reality from something catastrophic. However, life is inherently messy and you cannot realistically make every person fall into line with your desires. The Ascians might claim to be attempting chaos to restore balance, but their chaos requires using control and manipulation to dictate the actions of mortals. When you are controlling and mapping out chaos in predictable ways, doesn't it just become a different kind of order?

Varis' desire for freedom from Ascian interference imo isn't wholly inconsistent with the Garlean desire to prevent Eikon-based disasters. Both involve magical threats trying to dictate the fate of all Hydaelyn, including Garlemald. Varis has just gone so far that even by typical Garlean imperialist standards he's crazy.

I'd also like to raise attention to Sophia, Elidibus, the First, and even the Eorzean Alliance.

Sophia and Elidibus are kind of linked in the sense that they have become authoritarians in the name of balance, and in that process lost the natural balance that can only come from the chaos of life. Sophia's backstory is as follows:

During the Lore & Localization panel Michael-Christopher Koji Fox, who wrote the lyrics for Equilibrium, explained a bit of the meaning behind the song.

A long time ago, there was a family made up of a father, mother and daughter that lived on the southern continent of Meracydia. Sadly, the father was killed in battle during the war between the Meracydians and the invading Allagan forces. The mother received her husband's tattered uniform but was wrought with grief over his death.

There was a sudden change with the mother from this point forward and she became very violent towards her daughter. The daughter suffered through this, when finally her prayers for help reached the ears of the Goddess.

The Goddess spoke to her and told her that balance has been lost with the death of your father. You need to restore this delicate balance in life. If you want to restore balance you'll need to... kill your mother.

Of course, once she did that, the Goddess told her that her life was still unbalanced. The Goddess suggested that to restore the equilibrium she should kill herself. Pretty harsh!

Despite Sophia being all about balance and equilibrium, she sounds kind of extreme, no? Koji did mention that Sophia herself is neither good nor bad, and instead places balance above all else. If there's too much evil in the world, then she may act benevolent to tip the balance towards good. But, if there's too much good in the world...then she may act against it as well.

Part of how life goes by nature is that everything is temporary. Good times are followed by bad and vice versa, people will show the best and worst of themselves according to changing circumstances. When any shift is negated by external force to maintain a permanent state of "neutrality", you are pushing for something that is fundamentally opposed to life itself. Sophia's story shows this literally, and I suspect Elidibus might get confronted by this point down the line too. Ascians outside of Elidibus I seriously question though, because idk if they're prioritizing darkness or balance at this stage. My impression is that Elidibus wants balance above all while other Ascians are devotees of Zodiark and darkness above all else. Tbh, we might see some fracturing among Ascians because of this too down the line.

Anyway. The First and the Eorzean Alliance. The Eorzean Alliance has both through soldiers and the Warrior of Light been using force as a means to control the beast tribes. We know in particular from the relationship between Limsa Lominsa and kobolds that not all of this is fair or just. When beast tribes fall under the control of primals, they become extremists who are impossible to negotiate with. However, short of being tempered they're just another people who worship their own god. When force is employed against non-tempered beast tribes in fear of primal potential, when none have yet been summoned, that could be argued as too much light. Light doesn't necessarily mean good, it's still using force to impose an outcome. And the First had so much control over all opposition that it endangered the world itself with a flood of light.

I think at some point we need to get more insight on Zodiark and why someone would choose to worship Zodiark beyond "because they're evil". The Ascians are going to need to be taken out of that space of being cartoon villains to measure up to every other antagonist in the game. I really hope we'll be able to look back at previous scenes with them to find something more complicated and interesting going on.

So idk, I think the underlying idea in the game is going to look more at ends-justify-the-means stuff and why using authoritarian means to try and solve all problems/create any kind of unchanging, perfectly stable utopia just doesn't work.