Disappointed in the turn the Garlean Empire has taken

[filkry]

I caught up on the MSQ and feel pretty conflicted. I've been a big fan of the Garlean Empire as an antagonist up until now (Fordola is my favourite character of SB), but the newest revelations bother me.

The Garleans have been interesting because they have this great origin story and motivation. They are people without magic in a world where magic == power. They develop magitek as a way to defend themselves, and then they see how the "savage" world without magitek abuses the arcane to do things like summon Eikons. They want the supremacy of mortal races and intelligence over this, so they pledge to rid the world of the Eikon threat. Their entire fascist society is built around this goal that's easy to see as noble from a perspective that's only a few hundred years outdated in the modern world.

By contrast we have the Ascians, which are a generally less interesting metaphysical threat. They require you to take the idea of shattered worlds and stuff seriously, and then buy into their motivation that everything would be ambiguously better for them if the Rejoining happens. And then they all act like cartoon villains. Replacing the motivation of your cool villains (Garlemald) with your cartoon villains (Ascians) just feels like a mistake to me. Take Solus. We had this image of this righteous tyrant who unified his people in an evil but understandable goal. But now we see young Ascian Solus and he's just the most insufferable grandstander. It's impossible to imagine young Solus as the image that inspired the militant Garlean empire.

My fiance made a great point that almost brought me around on this. If you think about fascist societies, the myths they use to control their people aren't the same as their real motivations. So in a sense it checks out that the founder of the Empire would have darker motivations than that which drives society. And the game kind of leans into that, implying to some extent that Varis at least buys into the role of the Empire as eikon police. How cool would that be, to have the propaganda emperor actually buy into the propaganda, and use that as a motivation for him to fight back against the Ascians? But instead, Varis *also* wants the rejoining so he can somehow fight the Ascians. As thought accomplishing their major goal as a prerequisite won't have ramifications.

Can anyone help change my mind on this? I feel like we have almost no believers in the "Garlean Cause" left - maybe Gaius and Fordola?

[Anonymoose]

I, for one, think this is a perfectly understandable and appropriate position.
(Not that I love the game, its world, or its story any less for it.)

To me, it's felt like the story of XIV has been running on multiple levels.

Hydaelyn, Zodiark, and the Ascians seemed to be on a level in line with the classic games; the Crystal choosing great heroes to save the world. Things on this level seemed to appeal to more dyadic perceptions; Light and Dark, Good and Evil, etc. We knew it wasn't that simple (the Ascians, after all, think the world in which the mortal races thrive is unnatural, an aberration of the way things ought to be), and we knew and there'd be some twists, but that seemed like the theme.

The Garlean Empire seemed to be more in line with the later games; our enemy was physical, political, and most importantly, human. It was an exploration about leadership, ethics, morality, and intrigue in a world unlike our own. It was about the shades of gray, points of view, and competition for resources.

It makes sense to give the Ascians a few complex facets; it's hard to immerse yourself in the idea of a villain who is only a villain for villainy's sake. They might be right that the state of the cosmos is "unnatural" and an "aberration." But that it now belongs to man, that we want it to remain a place where man as we know it thrives, and that they're comfortable with annihilating entire worlds of us makes their ambitions just as "evil" (from our point of view) as ever.

It makes sense that the Ascians would have had something to do with the rise of Garlemald. If the Ascians had never existed, empires would still rise and fall. Man would still go war. But while it may end in atrocity and tragedy, it would not end in Calamity. That's the point: the Ascians merely provide encouragement and put their thumb on the scales. For the Garleans to gain a Calamity-level efficacy suggests Ascian meddling. But to make Solus zos Galvus himself an Ascian puppetmaster who from the very beginning meticulously curated the entire Empire for the sole purpose of sowing chaos? That just feels really awkward to me.

I was hoping this whole Solus arc was just Emet-selch messing with Varis, or maybe that Solus was actually just a mortal man who was risen to become an Ascian a la the Sahagin elder and Emet-selch was somewhere completely unexpected, meaning the Ascians had still just swerved mortal ambition and that Solus just happened to have taken to it better than most.

The only mitigating factor is that nigh all of the Empire believes that it's the Empire we believed it to be until now. What has "really" changed? One guy's impact. Except that guy was the founder, the leader, the identity of the Empire. To make HIM the simple, metaphysical "evil", in the eyes of the players meant to consume the fiction, tainted perception of the entire Garlean Empire and its entire history.

It feels like it was done in service to tidying up the plots and working the Garlean and Ascian arcs towards a conclusion. I would have understood Ascian infection of the Empire, even if simply reframing [Eorzea] vs. [Garlemald] to [Eorzea + Garlemald] vs. [Ascians + Garlemald] would have been derivative of what we've already done and lacking in the originality I think a memorable conclusion deserves. But to just suddenly re-frame the Garlean Empire as Ardyn the Ascian's toybox from the get-go? It feels off.

I share the same concern, but I'm keeping an open mind.

[MorbolvampireQueen6]

tbh i hated the Garlens before we saw that part ....

reason is technology to fight isn't interesting nor is it unique or fantasy.

Every garlen thing can be built irl with enough cash also it doesn't interest me what so ever.

how do people even like mech bs in games.
if i wanted mech id build it irl and use it

[Bright-Flower]

tbh i hated the Garlens before we saw that part ....

reason is technology to fight isn't interesting nor is it unique or fantasy.

Every garlen thing can be built irl with enough cash also it doesn't interest me what so ever.

how do people even like mech bs in games.
if i wanted mech id build it irl and use it

Garlean magitek devices aren't exactly realistically feasible. If they were they would more closely resemble real life military vehicles.

[MorbolvampireQueen6]

Garlean magitek devices aren't exactly realistically feasible. If they were they would more closely resemble real life military vehicles.

you do realize all there magiteck does is use nature fire elements like lava, water

give me 1billion and i could a army of real magitek in 5 years lol its completely feasible stop kidding yourself all it is metal-wires-coding and weaponize for what ever you wish it to do hell even gundums can be built

[Kalise]

Can anyone help change my mind on this? I feel like we have almost no believers in the "Garlean Cause" left - maybe Gaius and Fordola?

Well... The issue is that the Ascians and Varis are removing all parts of the Imperials that would actually believe in the "Garlean Cause"

I mean, that's why Cid left, because he wanted to stay true to the Garlean motto "Freedom through technology" when the rest of the Garleans where wanting to gain power and subjugation through any means necessary (Which has recently involved trying to bypass their inherent inability to manipulate Aether...)

Gaius is basically just exiled and he no longer cares about the Garleans at all, he's just on a vendetta against Ascians because he was manipulated so much by them and almost killed when we smashed Ultima to bits.

Fordola hates the Empire. She only joined forces with them because it was the only way she could see to make sure that her and the rest of her tribe were safe, since it didn't look like the Resistance would be able to take back control. Now that they have, she hates what she has done and how little the Empire actually cared about her and her kin (What with, shooting them all out of the tower in the Peaks... Killing all of her squad to just "Maybe" kill a few members of the resistance...)

The Populares also were recently exiled from the Empire, by way of the Emperor's guard going to intercept them in the Burn with intent to wipe them out.

Basically, the Garleans are no longer the Garlean Empire we knew in ARR. They are now explicitly just the machination of Ascians to fuel their agenda, whatever it may be. None that remain in service to the Empire seem to care about the original tenet of "Freedom through technology" and any that do, quickly seem to find themselves elsewhere (Cid likes to take exiles in to the Ironworks and fulfil that tenet. Lucia finds herself allying with Aymeric because he actually believes in his cause. The Populares are now members of the Resistance)

Anyway...

The main thing that has happened is the Ascians have started to take centre stage.

No longer are they merely sitting in the shadows, not showing themselves (Then being surprised that the WoL can see and hear them) and just manipulating things ever so slightly in order to have catastrophic results.

They instead, are up and showing themselves to people, taking over bodies to directly insert themselves into positions of power and then overtly trying to carry out their plan.

It's a shame, since the Ascians are inherently just less interesting. They're written off with being essentially demi-gods with all sorts of crazy and OP powers and apparently vast knowledge of things like the Echo (This was all supposed to be at the cost of their mortal bodies... But apparently that hasn't stopped them, they've been taking over new ones left and right. Heck, Solus now has an entire warehouse full of clones of his actual body, so he gets to be Superman AND has a limitless supply of his mortal body thereby making it completely free for him)

It doesn't help that we still have no clue what their ultimate goal actually is. Like, rejoin all worlds and revive Zodiark... And then what? What's Zodiark going to give them? What do they even want given they literally have superpowers and eternal life and Solus at least has infinite mortal bodies to boot?

At least Varis has an established goal with his inane plan to rejoin the worlds. He wants to create a super race of mortals and then destroy the Ascians so that the single world would then be at peace, with no racism to create conflict and no evil Supermen trying to murder everyone for kicks and giggles...

So yeah... Most of it comes down to the fact that the Ascians are taking too much spotlight and have basically superseded the Garlean Empire. Whilst being boring antagonists that are impossible to sympathise with because we know nothing about their goals as well as them being perfect in every way.

At least when the Garleans were the bad guys, you could understand their want to create Magitek in order to not be wiped out by races that could manipulate Aether. Then during SB we also found out about the Burn and how that shaped their anti-Primal motivations, which painted them in a different light. Where they were the bad guys, but it wasn't pure black and white, they were doing what they thought was best trying to wipe out "Lesser" races because of their propensity to summon Primals (Which is kind of what the City States in Eorzea are doing with Beast Tribes >.>)

With Ascians it's merely "They're Evil because they are Evil". They're wholly black and we have no idea why. We don't understand anything about their motivations. Heck, at this point, we're not even sure if they all share the same motivation (Elidibus has been hinted at having an alternate agenda... But again, we haven't been told what it is)

Hopefully ShB does something to tell us what the actual heck is going on with the Ascians... Or better yet, let us destroy them once and for all and let us have actually interesting antagonists again. Ones that we can then fight with without having to go super Saiyan and have a new BS super power given to us in order to actually do anything meaningful to them.

[Daralii]

you do realize all there magiteck does is use nature fire elements like lava, water

give me 1billion and i could a army of real magitek in 5 years lol its completely feasible stop kidding yourself all it is metal-wires-coding and weaponize for what ever you wish it to do hell even gundums can be built

If building iron giants was possible for a billion IRL, they'd be fighting ISIS right now.

[filkry]

The only mitigating factor is that nigh all of the Empire believes that it's the Empire we believed it to be until now. What has "really" changed? One guy's impact. Except that guy was the founder, the leader, the identity of the Empire. To make HIM the simple, metaphysical "evil", in the eyes of the players meant to consume the fiction, tainted perception of the entire Garlean Empire and its entire history.

It feels like it was done in service to tidying up the plots and working the Garlean and Ascian arcs towards a conclusion, but was this really the best way?

I share the same concern, but I'm keeping an open mind.

I was ready to accept this "what has really changed?" angle until Varis came out also in favour of the Rejoining. I wanted Varis to be "the founding may have been a lie, but the Cause is still just and we need to remove the Ascians to resume our noble goal of curbing the Eikon threat". That could have redeemed in somewhat in my eyes - the Empire is based in a lie, but it has taken that lie and made it their truth. But with Varis at the parlay meeting we now know that's not the case.

I agree this feels contrived as a way to help resolve both threats at the same time. I am also trying to keep an open mind, but just disappointed for now as it's very fresh in my mind having just finished the MSQ yesterday.

[filkry]

Gaius is basically just exiled and he no longer cares about the Garleans at all, he's just on a vendetta against Ascians because he was manipulated so much by them and almost killed when we smashed Ultima to bits.

Fordola hates the Empire. She only joined forces with them because it was the only way she could see to make sure that her and the rest of her tribe were safe, since it didn't look like the Resistance would be able to take back control. Now that they have, she hates what she has done and how little the Empire actually cared about her and her kin (What with, shooting them all out of the tower in the Peaks... Killing all of her squad to just "Maybe" kill a few members of the resistance...)
.

My impression from the most recent Gaius scene is that Gaius resents the Ascians and he thinks they have usurped the Empire. But he still referred to himself as a true son of Garlemald and I don't think he necessarily has given up on the Garlean purpose. He just thinks the current Empire no longer serves that purpose.

I agree Fordola hates the Empire. But my read of her (which may be wrong) is that she found the Empire at least somewhat appealing. At some point, she *did* think the Empire's ideals were more civilized than Ala Mhigo, and that the best choice (not just the only choice) was to join the Empire whole-heartedly. The problem she ran into was that the Imperials would never accept her and her people - NOT a fundamental rejection of Garlean ideals. That's why I continue to think of her as one of the potential "true" Garleans. I would love for her to join the Scions - part Ala Mhigan, part Garlean, with a mutant Echo.

[Astarotha]

a gundam can be physically built yes, but it wont FUNCTION worth a crap because the size and weight distribution of a gundam makes it physically impossible to do much more than very slowly shuffle or itll break a foot off or more likely break the surface its on and sink into the ground (you could make a human sized gundam, but then its not a gundam or a mech its just a suit of bulky heavy armor or a robot that we still havent quite figured out bipedal walking on)

now take ALL those problems, and make it horribly frontheavy, thats the magitek reapers, these things are fantasy BECAUSE theyre impractical at best and physically impossible at worst

in the end youd be wasting a billion dollars to find out its much cheaper to buy a bunch of guns and a tank, and then youd get to find out about the lovely world of maintenance costs