Blue Mage DPS Versus Other Casters

[Rongway]

The GCD's are replaced. Though, in terms of a rotation, you'll still cast the same number of Fire I's due to Fire III being 0 MP and thus your rotation is still "Use all your MP on Fire I, then Blizzard III"

They're not, though. You have enough MP for the same number of Fire casts whether you get 0 Firestarters or 5 Firestarters. If the game really likes you, you get five Fire I casts and five Fire III casts (1.024% chance that this happens), extending your AF phase to ten GCDs. So the rotation has a variable length of 8 GCDs up to 13 GCDs, and there isn't really any reason to switch over to UI prematurely when you're on such a streak.

[Ceallach]

Why are we ignoring easily-accounted-for traits and buffs though?

I didn't think I had the time to do a ton of number-crunching today, so I went with easier numbers. Remember, the point I was trying to make was not, "Blue mage is overpowered as the seven hells!" The point I was trying to make was, "Maybe blue mage doesn't need as much help as people seem to think in the damage department."

It turned out I was right. I spent a lot of my time trying to come up with the rotation I theoried out in the original post and got none of my homework for college done.

As far as I know, you multiply all the multipliers together before you deal with potency. For example, a fully-buffed Self-destruct would be from Toad Oil (so potency is 1200 instead of 900), Off-guard, Bristle, Moon Flute, and Peculiar Light. So that's 1.5*1.5*1.5*1.3=4.3875, 4.3875*1200=5265 potency magical fire damage at the cost of your life. I did the math for Final Sting as well, and Self-destruct is actually stronger this way because Final Sting, being physical, can't benefit from Peculiar Light.

Check out my thing I did on BLU theorycrafting!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...v9hVUg3DU/edit

BLU is actually pretty strong. I did synched Nael Van Darnus on BLU and was just under the BLM (who benefitted heavily from my Peculiar Light) in our group.

I really appreciate this! It looks like we came to the same conclusions on the abilities from the primals, and I hadn't noticed Fire Angon was physical (I chose it for the 1-second cast time and range). Looking at your opener, you seem to clip the GCD even more than I did, though. Do you regularly get Glass Dance and that last Glower to hit during Peculiar Light that way?

I can also see why you placed Aqua Breath and High Voltage on the "don't bother" list, but I feel 260 potency with 30 seconds of paralysis has its uses. I'm kind of attached to that combo.

[Kalise]

Are you sure they're additive?

From my testing, yes.

Buffs stack additively, as do debuffs.

However, buffs x debuffs are multiplicative.

So for example, with BLU:

Maim and Mend stacks additively with Bristle.

Off-Guard stacks additively with Peculiar Light.

M&M/Bristle stack multiplicatively with Off-Guard/Peculiar Light.

Similar thing for BLM with Astral Fire and Maim and Magick (I.e. Comparing how much damage Fire I deals at 1, 2 and 3 stacks of Astral Fire and checking the increase vs the expected if M&M was multiplicative with the boost from AF)

They're not, though.

They are though.

It's only relevant if you want to consider burst damage within a window though, such as during a particular boss phase or capitalizing on an outside buff/debuff.

Otherwise, it's just adding to the rotation. Much like how Convert adds additional Fire I's to the rotation for DPS increase.

[Rongway]

[In re: Fire III replacing Fire I]They are though.
It's only relevant if you want to consider burst damage within a window though, such as during a particular boss phase or capitalizing on an outside buff/debuff.

I'm talking about average potency per GCD. Firestarter Fire IIIs are in addition to Fire Is, and will increase the denominator as well as the numerator. This needs to be taken into account.

The following all cost the same MP, given Firestarter procs:

B3+T3+F3  +F1   +F1   +F1   +F1   +F1    => 3287 potency /  8 GCDs, average 411 potency/GCD  ( 7.78% chance)
B3+T3+F3  +F1+F3+F1   +F1   +F1   +F1    => 3849 potency /  9 GCDs, average 428 potency/GCD  (25.92% chance)
B3+T3+F3  +F1+F3+F1+F3+F1   +F1   +F1    => 4411 potency / 10 GCDs, average 441 potency/GCD  (34.56% chance)
B3+T3+F3  +F1+F3+F1+F3+F1+F3+F1   +F1    => 4973 potency / 11 GCDs, average 452 potency/GCD  (23.04% chance)
B3+T3+F3  +F1+F3+F1+F3+F1+F3+F1+F3+F1    => 5535 potency / 12 GCDs, average 461 potency/GCD  ( 7.68% chance)
B3+T3+F3  +F1+F3+F1+F3+F1+F3+F1+F3+F1+F3 => 6097 potency / 13 GCDs, average 469 potency/GCD  ( 1.02% chance)

Expected potency/GCD: 440 + adjustments for additional Thundercloud procs

[TsundereImouto]

I really appreciate this! It looks like we came to the same conclusions on the abilities from the primals, and I hadn't noticed Fire Angon was physical (I chose it for the 1-second cast time and range). Looking at your opener, you seem to clip the GCD even more than I did, though. Do you regularly get Glass Dance and that last Glower to hit during Peculiar Light that way?

I can also see why you placed Aqua Breath and High Voltage on the "don't bother" list, but I feel 260 potency with 30 seconds of paralysis has its uses. I'm kind of attached to that combo.

Yes, I regularly get that last glower inside of both. The idea with the swiftcast is to fit 7 GCD's under Moon Flute, and 5 GCDs under Peculiar Light. I get it consistently, 100% of the time unless I clipped my GCD somewhere during that 15 seconds. I have a 2.45 gcd so that certainly helps.

Since Glower also applies paralysis, any target that you want to Aqua Breath + High Voltage will already be immune to it from casting Glower. Additionally, targets that matter and actually can be paralyzed are extremely few and far between; My theorycrafting worksheet was for use in synced lv 50 content, basically. Adds that can be paralyzed can often be struck with Missile; spending your GCD on that is much more effective. Ultimately, it felt like to me, that if something could be incidentally paralyzed, Glower could take care of it, and otherwise they were just two 130 potency GCDs with shorter range than glower.

The reason we precast glower into clipping off-guard is because Glower is a free GCD; you get the entire cast before the boss is even pulled (precasting it), so there's no difference in when you get to apply off guard. Casting it instead of a shorter-cast skill is essentially free potency. You'll note that when we cast primal skills again later, I recommend weaving off-guard with sharpened knife.

[Phoenicia]

From my testing, yes.

Buffs stack additively, as do debuffs.

However, buffs x debuffs are multiplicative.

So for example, with BLU:

Maim and Mend stacks additively with Bristle.

Off-Guard stacks additively with Peculiar Light.

M&M/Bristle stack multiplicatively with Off-Guard/Peculiar Light.

What's your testing methodology? Because I have done this testing extensively and there is NOT a single buff that is additive. Unless it is a buff that replaces another (Greased Lighting 3 replacing 2 and 2 replacing 1).

ALL buffs and debuffs stack maltiplicatively. This is EXACTLY why the meta-comp is so strong and desired despite most buffs are 5 or 10%.

A simple test of casting Fire 1 from neutral and then comparing it to casting Fire 1 in AF3.. It is exactly 80% higher (my sample of 35 casts yielded 79.86%). Both Fire 1 in neutral and AF3 Fire 1 are affected by M&M.

For mitigation (since you tank you should know this), try popping Rampart while in Shield Oath, Rampart reduces the damage ALREADY reduced by ShO by 20%. You can try it by going to any world mob, gather a few of the same type so you can have a good sample size of number of hits. Have them wack at you with ShO+Ramps up, then Sentinel with no ShO and see how you take less damage in the latter (40% vs 38%). I mean if they stacked additively, wouldn't Shield Oath + Rampart + Sentinel + Block be 110% damage reduction? That's stronger than Hallowed Ground!! Boss hits should heal you for 10% of their damage... What happens is you actually take closer to 26.88% of the damage (73.22% total damage reduction)

DRG would probably be a better example since you don't have to wait for AF3 to time out after each Fire 1 cast. DRG gets 10% from Heavy Thrust. Using B4B on top of HT adds 15% to your already 110% output, try it by simply spamming a non-combo'd Full Thrust (100 potency), remove critical hits then averaging them up. Try it bare, then with only HT up, then only B4B up, then both. Bigger sample size is better, go ahead and test it yourself (B4B numbers will take a while since you have to wait and you can only have so many GCDs in 20s).

Buffs and debuffs DEFINITELY have a multiplicative stacking nature. (i.e. Your damage with Storm's Eye is amplified by Slashing debuff, HT applies first, then B4B/D.Sight, then Disembowel).

In general, potency comparisons aren't always accurate (I will say never accurate). They are always done lazily and they ignore a lot of (important) factors. Multiplicative vs additive buff stacking done wrong in this thread is a clear example. They also simplify their own math, so they ignore important traits. BLM scales with SpS more than the other casters because 100% of its DMG is GCDs, whereas SMN and RDm hate SpS because a big portion of their damage is oGCDs (and a melee combo in case of RDM) which are completely unaffected by it. Meanwhile, BLU's EVERYTHING is buffed by SpS, including its oGCDs that get their cast time and cooldown reduced by it. Removing RNG does not help either. Damage/healing formula has a 10% variance between low and high, ignoring crit (a stat that double dips into itself because it increases chance and power) is also bad. I know people want to only consider/care about averages, and again, not all classes benefit from the same stat the same way.

Based on the above, the calculations in this thread have done the following incorrectly:

Scaling of UI/AF3 for BLM spells (done incorrectly or ignored). Ignoring TC and FS procs which are a HUGE portion of the lv50 DPS ratio.
Not using Garuda-Egi (the superior pet in 4.4) for SMN and taking the DoT snap shotting during contagion (also unloading festers into contgion) into account.
Assuming ver-shortspells to be 100% instead of 50% (basically the calculations should assume 50% Jolts get replaced by 25% of w/b Ver-shorts). RDM might get 1 or 2 melee combos in a minute. Calculating highest DPS potential should assume Displacement and Corpse-a-corpse being used on CD, not matched with melee combos.
All scaling on BLU unless it was done completely multiplicatively.

If you want a definitive answer to which DPS does more damage (which is pointless as none of the jobs are balanced around level 50 anymore, RDM and SAM outDPS BLM at 50, even though an optimized BLM is 10~15% ahead of an optimized SAM and RDM is in the bottom of the DPS ladder at 70) is simply by being level 50 (no level sync) and wearing the best gear for the job at level 50 and going all out on a training dummy then using certain 3rd party programs which aren't advocated here and see which DPS parses highest.

This whole topic is moot as BLU cannot be 70 and all the other DPS are balanced around level 70 abilities and content.

The only objective way to look at BLU is, in a 3:00 minute parse:
Without Primal Abilities at 130, you won't break 300 DPS.
With primal abilities, you should average ~550 DPS.
Both of the above cases abuse the ability to apply status to enemies (petrify, freeze, etc) until immunity.

[Kalise]

What's your testing methodology? Because I have done this testing extensively and there is NOT a single buff that is additive.

My testing involved hitting a dummy as BLU with skills, getting an average of the damage per hit, then doing the same with combinations of buffs/debuffs (Off-Guard, Bristle, Moon Flute, Peculiar Light)

My numbers showed that the similar effects stacked additively, not multiplicatively.

[Kabooa]

My testing involved hitting a dummy as BLU with skills, getting an average of the damage per hit, then doing the same with combinations of buffs/debuffs (Off-Guard, Bristle, Moon Flute, Peculiar Light)

My numbers showed that the similar effects stacked additively, not multiplicatively.

A quick test nekkid with Sardine (10 potency) was 4-5 damage per hit base.

Off Guard: 6-7 (+50%)
Off Guard + bristle: 9-10 (+125%)

Blood Drain (20 potency) was 10-11 base.

Off Guard: 15-16 (+50%)
Off guard + bristle: 22, 24 (+125%)
Off Guard + Bristle + Peculiar Light: 28, 31 (Harder to test cuz duration limits). Bonus: +162.5%
OG, Bristle, Pecular LIght, Moonflute: 42, 46. Bonus: +243.75%

Looks multiplicative to me.

[Ceallach]

-snip le good stuff-

That's impressive. I actually didn't think of the "precast" section at all.

(which is pointless as none of the jobs are balanced around level 50 anymore

...

This whole topic is moot as BLU cannot be 70 and all the other DPS are balanced around level 70 abilities and content.

I disagree. No point is moot as long as there is interest in it.

[Phoenicia]

That's impressive. I actually didn't think of the "precast" section at all.



I disagree. No point is moot as long as there is interest in it.

It is moot. Interest does not matter if whatever your testing bears no real bearing. Comparing DPS between level 50 jobs is a very lost cause and does not give any indicative to any job's powers or weaknesses. As mentioned in my post earlier: RDM can do more DPS than BLM and SAM at 50. Does that make RDM the highest DPS because it beats the allegedly top DPS classes in the game? No, it is just RDM "spiking in power" earlier (at 50) while BLM and SAM need to wait until 60+ to get what makes their DPS high, being Fire IV and Kenki moves respectively. The important fact remains the same, BLM and SAM are sitting at the very top 2 spots in the DPS ladder while RDM is just making it through the middle-of-the-pack position with more jobs outDPSing it than jobs outDPS'd by it, utility and rDPS taken into account.

This applies to all roles too! WHM only has benediction while AST and SCH have most of their oGCD heals (except Star and Indom respectively). PLD only has Halone while WAR and DRK have their actual DPS combos. WAR doesn't even have Deliverance nor Fell Cleave at 50. AST does not even gets its AoE until 54.

No one is "balanced" around sync'd down content. The content itself is mostly not doable at minimum ilv because we don't have the same tools, stats or jobs as we did back when it was relevant. Permanent 100% uptime damage reduction, "accuracy" stat as an anti-power-creep stat, parry/block amount scaling with STR and their chance with DEX (A relic from 1.x), should be good few examples.

Even BLU itself isn't balanced around level 50 content. it depends on what spells you have set, what mobs you are hitting, etc. SE didn't bother to balance because they had no intention to "balance" the job in neither group content nor for what it was advertised as, solo job. If what you are hitting is immune to half your shenanigans your DPS takes a heavy hit (haven't tested this scenario much). If your Missile or Tail Screw lands on something with lots of HP (Ramuh adds come to mind, they have 35k health) you'll rock silly numbers (HW levels, DPS jumped from 205lol to 850wtf levels and I didn't have any of the primal spells when testing it).

Comparing BLU to other <anything> has no bearing at all for the above reasons. Whither it does more DPS than everything or less than everything changes nothing. The job isn't balanced for its own content, being a solo job that is "unfit" for group play. It can't solo what it should, and it can't group for what it needs. Comparing its DPS when it doesn't play well with others to even compete for the role is pointless as they just disqualify.

And then there are the hypotheticals, assumptions, and incorrect-lazy-math that come in to try and level the ground in an attempt to force the comparison, which only end up messing the numbers even further.

Not just BLU, comparing jobs at a level where content is not balanced for has no bearing what-so-ever. As a matter of fact, at level 10, WAR is the top DPS class in the game because it has its AoE then, no other class does (Except DRK's Unleash, lol0dmgspell) and as such, strongest class in the game since it takes less damage as a tank! Must be OP, nerf plz!

There are many points when leveling where tanks and/or healers outpace DPS VERY hard and do more damage than the DPS themselves (level 45 and WHM's Holy in AoE, anyone? Or 54 and Fell Cleave/Goring Blade when tanks beat DPS in Single target? No?). See how "relevant" comparing a class to others at irrelevant points is?

BLU being capped at a level of irrelevance only means we can't really compare it to anything. BLU is as (ir)relevant as the content it is capped into.