Shadowbringers RDM Wishlist

[Sylvain]

First thank you for reading the skill set I proposed and leaving feedback

I like the idea of upgrading Vercure to affect the party (or at least targets around your target), but... I have a few concerns.

1) If Verblizzard and Verwater both deal the same damage as Jolt II and have a faster cast time, what's to stop them from simply replacing Jolt II so you can spam instants? Combined with Improved Dualcast and uninterrupted movement, it's easy to see that as being a total throughput upgrade.

Well first off, Jolt2 has a potency of 240 and grant 3/3 mana whereas the proposed VerBlizz/Water has 210 and 4mana. You're overall loosing 2mana and 30 potency.
This spell is intended to be your "movement spell" but never something you spam randomly, consider it like Ruin2 on the SMN. It's only 20 potency difference but at the end of a fight it can make a significant difference.


Note that it's only instant, it is not a ogcd. It still triggers the gcd and can be considered a regular 2.5s cast (except that you can do it while moving and weave 2 ogcd after)

So technically in an ideal scenario, beside for a few dual weave (like on pull I suppose or for Embolden + Manafication), you would never want to press those skills. They're simply weaker than Jolt2.

They are here to counter the loss of mobility due to the enhanced dual-cast.

2) Why change both Verholy and Verflare into Vermilion Blade, rather than Enchanted Moulinet? Why allow Vermilion Style to stack to 3 if the effect only requires 2 stacks? Is Vermilion Blade intended to be an AoE? The description just says it does heavy damage.

Simply consider Vermillion Blade as your "AoE finisher", in single target you do your melee combo and end with Holy/Flare, in AoE you do moulinet and end with Blade.

The reasoning for changing skill is to prevent skill bloat.
There is no need to add a whole new skill for that. (Like for Medica basically)

Then I allowed to stack to 3 for 2 reasons.

One, we can effectively do 3 Enchanted Moulinet. With Manafication you can quickly do with 90/90 do Moulinetx2 V-Blade, Manafication (30/30 -> 60/60), Moulinetx2, V-Blade and I thought that would be cool and people would enjoy doing that sort of wombo combo in dungeon.

Second, Ver-Holy/Flare turning into Ver-Blade is to have a finisher but that stack both mana because RDM AoE rotation is only based on Scatter which is a "red" spell. If I were to simply make "Holy/Flare now deal AoE" you'd end up having unbalanced mana during your AoE (like you'd start with 23/3) which, imo, would be more annoying than anything else.

3) Wouldn't Improved Acceleration encourage holding Acceleration's buff to get more mileage from Impact? Would it be consumed by Vermedica?

Maybe, sometime I do have the feeling "Impact" doesn't have enough... well impact on our gameplay. Maybe it's too strong for impact but the goal was simply to make acceleration a bit more interesting to use. You're not just triggering something, you're also generating a lot of mana so depending on your current state a wrong choice could make you have too much of either.

And yes it is consumed by Vermedica. When you press acceleration Ver-Cure becomes Ver-Medica and can only be used once every 20s. I do not want to RDM to be able to spam Ver-medica, (I'm afraid we could end up with some 1heal1rdm meta if it could). But even if I would want that, I do believe SE wouldn't allow it.
They clearly made so that RDM is a dps and they don't want any hybrid (I mean Y.P is annoyed by healer dps so... I don't think he'll allow "proper" dps heal), so instead of doing wishfull thinking, I'd rather go with what we have and see what could be added. (I'm still extremely skeptical regarding the addition of VerMedica tbh)

Obviously this is a huge loss of dps loss so this is purely intended to be used as an emergency skill.

4) Is it intended for the change to Enhanced Scatter to encourage players to hit Enchanted Moulinet as soon as it comes up to keep below 50 MP?

The goal is to make your mana generation faster so you can moulinet more often.
It could be a 100% proc (but it'd be boring), so here the idea behind the dynamic proc rate is to, as you thought, having a proper milestone where you would want to start using moulinet.
It's meant to be more engaging. Technically I think the ideal scenario for fast AoE would be Scatter until 30/30, then Moulinet, then again, then Verblade.

The problem I have with the 30% is that it feels very slow and too random, sometime you're lucky and will proc it non stop, and sometime the PLD can end up doing more than you do.

5) If your overall concern is button bloat, why not advocate for the compression of existing skills, like our melee combo or proc-exclusive spells (a la PVP)?

I would advocate for this but I have a very strong feeling they won't do it.
So my goal was to add the least amount of button.

In the end, only one button has been added for a total of 5 new skills,
Ver Blizz
Ver Water
Ver Medica
Ver Blade
Ver Splendor

The overall gameplay hasn't changed all that much but RDM would now be a much faster paced caster with, hopefully, a more engaging AoE rotation.

[Seraphor]

Seraphor, I think we don't agree. I belive almost everything is designed with an end-game mindset when it comes to job kits, with a few exceptions here and there for CC / solo content that do not come in calculation. AOE is basic for most jobs and I don't get the point of going extensively in that direction when it's only used in dungeons, when it's content that does not need any particular skill or effort.
Now if ShB makes dungeons actually challenging (and the overall game a bit harder), then I'm up for discussion on this topic. Right now, I don't see the point.

Considering the vast majority of content and duties at set at the level caps of 50, 60 and 70, anything post level 60 has to be intended for 'end game' level content.

Black Mage learns Thunder IV and Foul after level 60, the latter is it's level 70 skill.
Summoners level 70 Akh Morn is an AoE.
Samurai again has level 64 and level 70 AoE skills.
Dragoon has level 60, 62 and 70 AoE attacks.
Hellfrog medium, level 62.
Quietus, level 64 AoE utility skill.

And probably most notably, Red Mage doesn't get Verraise until level 64.

While high end raids are certainly their first concern, to say that they ignore all other content at high levels isn't at all accurate, and neither should they regardless.

[Archwizard]

Well so does VerCure actually. Playing healer in most roulettes / raids, I see a lot of RDM using VerCure when they technically should not.

Eh, to be honest I can understand that. There have been as many times where I got told off for using Vercure after a big hit as there have been instances where the healer completely ignored healing me in preparation for big hits (expecting me to patch myself up), or I ended up some distance from the rest of the group and needed to self-heal, even an instance or two where I had to raise the healer(s) and quickly heal the tank to give them a moment to recover MP. Sometimes you just don't know whether your healer is competent, much less looking out for you.

Nobody's contesting that it's a DPS loss to use Vercure (in much the same way it's a DPS loss for the caster to use Mage's Ballad), but it is being used as intended in those cases, especially when dying is a bigger loss.

Meanwhile doing a non-Enchanted melee combo at all would go against the intended use, and breaking even with our MP expenditure is a fundamental necessity of our rotation. You'd not only change the intent of the non-Enchanted melee abilities, but require introducing them to your rotation to maintain the playstyle.

I think it's a waste of a Trait/Action slot to add an AOE finisher in the 70-80 levels. If it's an earlier level change, then it's fine (Tether could be reworked as Tri-Bind was for SMN and it did change its AOE rotation)

On the one-hand I will agree that it's very late for us to gain more AoE actions. On the other, I won't object to having anything to reduce Scatter spam for an entire expansion, and it's not like BLMs get their main AoEs particularly early.

[Sylvain]

On improved Dualcast : then you need to revise all potencies. Because RDM has high raw potencies on each spell. Sneaking more spells thanks to a 1.8GCD would make it OP...

I mean, It is a 72 trait balanced around lv 80 gameplay. I assume every other job will get in a form or another some dmg potential buff in a way or another.

Obviously if you'd give that to the current RDM that would make utterly op, like giving FireIV to a BLM at lv 50 would break them.

But I agree, Enhanced DualCast is the most significant dps boost for the RDM up to lv 80 that's for sure. And yes somehow some potency adjustement might be necessary. (Basically this trait is the one I want the most yet the most problematic)

Otherwise, I guess you ideas are fine. Now the "one VerHoly, one VerFlare then Vermillion Splendor" feels a bit too simple and long. I'd rather see your Splendor back to back to the second Ver-finisher, with a reduced potency.

Well, with the new Dual-Cast, Acceleration and White/Black Attunement you would be able to do Flare/Holy much more often, so I really don't think it would be all that long.
I really want to push forward the balancing part of the RDM. I was quite disapointed that choosing between holy/flare had such a low impact on our dps. You could litterally limit yourself to VerHoly and do barely less than someone doing it right. 10-14 proc of verStone is a dps boost, but it's not gamebreaking. (Just loosing 2-3 gcd is a bigger dps loss)

Guarenteed crit after Redoublement is OP. I'd rather have something to even the gaps in RDM damage imput. Namely, have a way to make Jolt II stronger in the case of no proc once you have used all your proc-fishing tools. Maybe a trait called "Hopelessness" once you have used Swiftcast and Accceleration is on cooldown ;D

I personally do not think a garanteed crit on VerHoly/Flare (and eventually Splendor) would be op. Just checking the fflog of a 95+ parse RDM on OS12-2,
he did 14 holy/flare, with an average crit chance of 50%.
The average hit was 21k and average crit was 34k. So a 13k difference. He'd get this extra 13k 7 times (half the time). that's 91k, He did 4.32m damage, that's 2% dps increase.

I chuckled at the Hopelessness ^^

The only thing really op is that enhanced dualcast. The rest should just push our dps around 5-7% forward.

[Lauront]

I should say that vercure is balanced as well as possible, while it’s true it sets you back in dps in potency and mana gained. That’s because its an On demand, low mp cost Heal that can not only save you but, someone else. Compared to 2nd wind where this skill heals you once and you’ve gotta hope you survive what ever damage is going out. Vercure is good as it is and doesn’t need to be touched.

The thing is, you also have Bloodbath as a melee dps. Second Wind is pretty handy for topping your HP up in an instant, but it's not the only self-healing tool melee have.

[Wayfinder3]

The thing is, you also have Bloodbath as a melee dps. Second Wind is pretty handy for topping your HP up in an instant, but it's not the only self-healing tool melee have.

Even still, bloodbath requires damage to heal a viable amount which may not be optimal in situations where you’re trying to heal damage up in a short amount of time, even with 2nd wind.

The ultimate reason why Vercure is fine is because it’s on demand, requires nothing but mana and a gcd which may sound like a lot when talking about optimization. However in progression, Vercure can be used on demand on anyone in the raid. In Ucob, Vercure can save people from dying during trios where it gets sketchy. Which is nothing but a gain. It’s also amazing for solo content. I understand everyone has meta optimization in mind with balancing however, if a dps is given a tool as powerful as an on demand low resource heal. That’s something to be respected regardless of how niche it is outside for progression and no savage content

[Wayfinder3]

To piggy back off of that, this isn’t me saying Vercure is an amazingly balanced skill. I think it’s about as good as it needs to be because it reaches farther than its contemporaries. (Clemency is the only skill that can compare)

I disagree with the idea hat Vercure needs to do anymore than it currently does. However, more utility like OGCD in the same vain as Vercure is 100% something I want from a job with roots in White Magic. An Aoe Regen or Mantra, maybe even both of those combined into one skill to help in progression and save healers a gcd. As long as rdm doesn’t get any more healing utility’s that are on the gcd. I think we should be open to it pushing the line that a support dps should be able to. Bard has so much raw utility and some of it could easily be removed given how much damage they deal that, surely rdm could get a ogcd medica 2 + Mantra in one skill that doesn’t hinder them. The question is, will they do it.

[Lauront]

Yup, I don't disagree with your point. I was just stating melee have pretty good HP recovery mechanisms. Vercure is pretty exceptional for a dps. At the same time, it's one of those abilities that, whilst not bad for progression/learning fights (along with Verraise), is much less useful when everyone is doing their job well. Compared to other jobs which bring good optimisation utility, RDM falls short, and particularly SMN.

[ArcaneCarbuncle]

Personally, all I want for RDM is for the Devs to not throw any random new mechanics at the Job - leave the Enspells and whatnot to future Jobs (Spellblade job similar in style to FFXVs Ignis? Yes please!)
I'd just want them to look at the parts of RDM that already work and elaborate on them.
Thus I like the Idea of more Manaspenders, Melee-Skills and Support options.
(Also, can we just get rid of Verraise? And Resurrection on SMN? I'm sick of just being the Rez-Battery xD Make Caster-rez a role skill on a 90 Second CD or something so we can have it whenever we need it but can swap it for something more useful if we don't)

[RadicalPesto]

RDM having some form of party heal utility akin to mantra would make the "white mage" side of the job stand out a bit more. It also feels like RDM is the kind of job that needs some extra DPS but would feel more thematically appropriate if it gained it from some manner of raid support skill rather than raw personal damage.