Should they remove positionals at this point?

[Burningskull]

I don't understand the hate for positionals. Is it because people think they have to run around a lot to reach the Rear and the Flank? Honestly you're not supposed to be moving very much more than someone just standing around. Let's make a diagram, yes?



There. Everything yellow is the Rear. Everything blue is the Flank (it's early morning so it's not as blue as it should be and I didn't feel like waiting around for the sun to move. Sue me). Even including the bits inside the hitbox. You should be standing on the border between Flank and Rear and taking only a step or two to move between them. That also makes it very easy to move with the target if it turns. You won't always be able to hit them, but a few misses aren't going to shatter your DPS if you're playing well otherwise (and True North just got a nice CD reduction).

That's the point. You try to move as little as possible to do your positionals as is what would not having them really do? And how is taking them away dumbing thing things down? As is I flick the control stick left or right once or twice a rotation. It doesn't make the fight more or less difficult. And like the OP said. SE is designing fights where positionals are at times impossible. So much so that they upped MNK dps when not doing them and lowered True North's cool down. Removal of positionals might mean more interesting and more cinematic fights since they don't have to take positional up time into account for the fight. If they do that at all currently.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

That's the point. You try to move as little as possible to do your positionals as is what would not having them really do? And how is taking them away dumbing thing things down? As is I flick the control stick left or right once or twice a rotation. It doesn't make the fight more or less difficult. And like the OP said. SE is designing fights where positionals are at times impossible. So much so that they upped MNK dps when not doing them and lowered True North's cool down. Removal of positionals might mean more interesting and more cinematic fights since they don't have to take positional up time into account for the fight. If they do that at all currently.

They usually do that to bolster DPS of people who don't know/bother to do positionals. Not because they're shying away from doing fights that don't allow positionals (although they might be doing this now, because of said people). Same thing with DRG in the past.

[Sandpark]

Given the above, I don't think removing positionals would make the those jobs "boring" because:

1) Hard fights are mechanic heavy and either make it nearly impossible to maintain full uptime + positionals anyway OR remove the need for them entirely given the nature of the boss.
2) You don't even effectively use them half the time when soloing.
3) They are removed from content where it doesn't even matter anyway.

The benefit of having them is:

1) Making a job slightly harder / more in-depth to play.
2) Allowing a distinction between bad, good, great players (which I think they were trying to get away from anyway, thus the changes)

1. It's supposed to be impossible at times, otherwise what's the point of positionals? It's so really good players can have a means to perform at a job better than someone else when available.
2. Half the time is ok, as long as not never.
3. No comment
4. This combat system is bare bones as is, I like depth when applicable.
5. The changes to Monk are so it is not as bad a disparity. Otherwise they would have removed them completely.

You could make this argument in other areas as well.
1. Why does X job have better AoE?
2. Why does X job have a good self cure and my job does not, I like soloing too?
3. Why does Warrior have to aim Overpower and Dark does not have to aim Unleash?

When you break it down this is really a dislike because X job has to do it to be great while Y job does not. If that is the real argument then maybe they could devise a system where every job can and should take advantage of positionals instead of just some?

How about a global system that can add depth to all jobs depending on situations. Passives that are accounted for depending on positions and circumstances. Certain offline Final Fantasies have these. I will say take a page from XIII for this game. But pseudo fit it to fit the theme of this game. I will list the skill then why it makes you want to play better for bonuses below each skill.

Passives depending on circumstance:

Blindside- Deals critical damage with any damage skill executed from behind.
Encourages all jobs to execute damage skills from behind.
Pincer Attack- All damage skills executed from sides lower resistance to your specified weapon/magic type for 12 seconds.
Encourages all jobs to execute damage skills from the side.
Vigor- Boost damage of auto attacks when your HP is high, effect diminishes as your HP lowers.
Damage uptick remains higher when you avoid damage.
Chain Attack- Increases Limit Break accrual when multiple players target the same enemy.
This one rewards you for targeting the same focused enemy when multiple enemies exist.
Faultsiphon- Slightly charge TP/MP gauge when attacking a target with status ailments.
Encourages you to hit specific enemies with status ailments to manage resources better.
Lifesiphon- Restores 200 HP upon dealing the killing blow to an enemy.
Encourages you to finish an enemy almost dead first.
Deathblow- Kills any normal enemy in one blow if attacked with a skill while stunned.
Encourages you to take advantage of stunned enemies.
Brittle- Player is inflicted with a severe defense down penalty when attacked by 5 or more enemies at once.
Encourage you to fight groups of enemies and not zones of enemies, could allow for harder hitting/dangerous standard enemies.

Those are some, could get really fancy especially if a stagger system was a thing but not going to go into detail because this is just a thought and none likely to happen. If I had my wish combos and selfish rotations would be pruned down replaced with less skills but more party synergy or taking advantage of situations, perhaps a skill chain system, aka comboing skills with yourself or others in no particular order but the depth is the combinations/variations you do.

[Seddrinth]

There were no positionals in o5s or o6s and gameplay didn't feel dumbed down or too easy.

o6s definitely was dumbed down and too easy. o5s i mean it's pretty obvious why it doesn't have positionals lol

[Jopo-Gray]

Be careful what you wish for, removing melee positionals would destroy the skill ceiling. You miss 10-20 out of 70 positionals (on a trial....) and want them all removed? I have a feeling that's not actually the reason you want them removed. Hitting positionals is the hardest and most rewarding part about playing melee dps. If I could think of one way to turn melee dps from challenging to braindead this would be number one on the list.

I've never felt compelled to post on this forum before (at least as far as I can remember) but (I'd hope) this would piss a lot of people off who care and understand how much gameplay value having positionals adds. I and many others went through the effort of learning how to deal with positionals for different fights, taking them all out would remove something so rewarding/ challenging while making the class boring to the people who learned how to do positionals before. Case in point o6s.

Not like anyone will care but the day they remove positionals is the day I quit this game. I love raiding in this game and especially on Monk, giving up positionals just so others have an easier time picking the class up is so backwards. Be careful what you wish for. The same thing happened to Warrior, they improved the job in 4.1 only to give in to the small outcry that the class was too punishing. Only to now have everyone complain that the class is now braindead (which I hold the opinion of also). I honestly wouldn't be surprised if SE did this positional thing though, sadly. I feel all the opinions against positionals come from a background of total ignorance by taking something like this for granted.

[Arek]

I hope they don't get rid of positional entirely.

"Should they remove positionals at this point? "

No. I'm glad they did what they did in the patch 4.5 for MNK (and True North) because O9/10/11 and Seiryuu are changing direction pretty quickly but Positionals have been part of the signature of MNK (and other Melee DPS). And I want to keep that.

It's ok to have no positionnals for Massive multiplayer content like Eureka or Solo content like Deep Dungeon. But If you get rid of that entirely, It will be more boring as someone said previously that "Rythm" Fight of FF14 are too scripted rotation when you know them, so it will accentuate this state if you do not have to adapt your movement with the mechanics to get the extra DPS.

[Burningskull]

Be careful what you wish for, removing melee positionals would destroy the skill ceiling. You miss 10-20 out of 70 positionals (on a trial....) and want them all removed? I have a feeling that's not actually the reason you want them removed. Hitting positionals is the hardest and most rewarding part about playing melee dps. If I could think of one way to turn melee dps from challenging to braindead this would be number one on the list.

I've never felt compelled to post on this forum before (at least as far as I can remember) but (I'd hope) this would piss a lot of people off who care and understand how much gameplay value having positionals adds. I and many others went through the effort of learning how to deal with positionals for different fights, taking them all out would remove something so rewarding/ challenging while making the class boring to the people who learned how to do positionals before. Case in point o6s.

Not like anyone will care but the day they remove positionals is the day I quit this game. I love raiding in this game and especially on Monk, giving up positionals just so others have an easier time picking the class up is so backwards. Be careful what you wish for. The same thing happened to Warrior, they improved the job in 4.1 only to give in to the small outcry that the class was too punishing. Only to now have everyone complain that the class is now braindead (which I hold the opinion of also). I honestly wouldn't be surprised if SE did this positional thing though, sadly. I feel all the opinions against positionals come from a background of total ignorance by taking something like this for granted.

I'm just speaking for myself but I don't find positonals rewarding or challenging. SE could even throw more mechanics at you that make you move more while trying to keep your rotation going without positionals.

[Seddrinth]

I'm just speaking for myself but I don't find positonals rewarding or challenging. SE could even throw more mechanics at you that make you move more while trying to keep your rotation going without positionals.

Well if it is not challenging then why even think about removing it?

[Jopo-Gray]

I'm just speaking for myself but I don't find positonals rewarding or challenging. SE could even throw more mechanics at you that make you move more while trying to keep your rotation going without positionals.

Yes but then you need to make the fight harder for everyone to make up for the fact that melee dps no longer have positionals, right? and then as Sedd said why remove them if they are so easy then? They are the hardest thing about melee dps by far.

I don't understand how doing positionals on Monk during mechanics is not challenging. Maybe when the mechanics are easy to do/forsee but when you are doing skulls and towers in o8s it becomes clear that if positionals weren't in the game it would be a lot easier to play Monk completely optimally. Another example is o7s that was a decent challenge on melee because the boss was always turning and moving during mechanics, you had parts where you had to stand still meaning you had to think of what positional you needed the most depending on your rotation. Twintania in UCoB, ALLOT of turning and moving. A11s, you had to be prepared to move to the right positional if cruise chaser was going to cleave the side you were on while keeping your gcd rolling. Heck, even O1S had some challenge since the boss would jump to different parts of the arena facing certain directions, you also had to think ahead during ice on whether you were going to get a rear or flank positional before moving away from the boss, then slide back to the boss for the next positional. Getting as many positionals as you could during Ex-death dark orbs (whatever they are called) depending on what orb pattern you got.

I could go on and on with examples of how having positionals adds allot to the skill ceiling of these jobs and especially Monk. No positionals do have their place (Eureka being the best example), just not in raids and trials (with few exceptions).

I would rather have a more complex job than mechanics made exclusively for melee to make up for the fact that the class was made much easier. I would rather them think of creative mechanics to make it a challenge for me when striving for positionals. If there are some mechanics that don't allow me to hit positionals? I don't care because the overwhelming majority of the time you can hit them, it's just a question of fight knowledge and skill. Plus if every other melee misses those positionals, there's nothing to min-max (although there's true north usage), just miss some positionals like everyone else is the way I look at it.

[Dzian]

To be honest I'd happily see them all scrapped. Its really not interesting. Especially when you can typically do them all with 1 step here and 1 step there..

If they scrapped them entirely I'd probably play and enjoy monk a hell of a lot more personally..