Why bother?

[Leigaon]

I understand that in early dungeons you can easily DPS down a boss without having to deal with mechanics (think sastasha) but isn't this just teaching new players just to ignore ALL mechanics?

For most people it is. I agree with you in some parts, but the actual situation has so many parts related to it. There's no single solution / mind set to it all but instead multiple. Some I have to learn to accept as being the reality and some I agree with completely.

Each piece of content has a time when it is current and relevant and not cheesable.

This is one of those I agree with also. You're right, it's teaching them to ignore mechanics because they missed out, but at some point they're going to hit that wall where they go "I got to learn to do this right."

So I also agree with Rongway. Sastasha for example, I don't have to worry about the adds as much as I did earlier on. Some runs I do, some I do not. But now it's so old, I cheese on through baby!

This scenario is what it was like, from what I remember, when we first hit 3.0. Everyone was so settled in the "I am a GOD!" that when the first dungeon hit we were getting slapped around. Eventually it became no so bad and you get it done a bit faster as it gets older in content.

I think its a "make mechanics interesting and fun so players WANT to work it" issue.

I agree with you on that one too. Though, what makes players want to work at these? I've looked at it and asked around and for the most part all you get is some gear or if it's new. Gear from something that old means very little, and it's not new.

The end goal for most of these people in these dungeons or instances in general is to get in, out and get your roulette bonus. They sort of mold to that so they can get in and out.

Again, I'm not disagreeing with you that you're wrong. I like doing the dances, makes things simple on my end. Though going through this with so many people, these are just some (not all) the connections that come with it. I've learned to accept it, focus on other aspects of the game and move on. Or as someone once said "Don't think about it."

Anyways, good luck to all of you as we run down the last few months in 4.0!

[AdrenKael]

You didn't have to ask, since I already challenged your numbers. Your Nidhogg is a bad example because there is no extra damage to be gained for taking mechanical risks in that fight.

You didn't challenge just the numbers you challenged the idea without presenting any evidence of your own. Yes I was being hyperbolic with the numbers just to give you a general idea of what I was referring to thus the whole "not representative of anything in particular" statement. Just saying I doubt something without any shred of evidence to back up your own claim or any example of your own isn't valid. You cant use "within the context of my argument" excuse when you're arguing a completely different point. Yes, there are mechanics you can skip or cheese and there are times when a DPS has no choice but to stand in an AOE (limit break for example) but your original statement of "You shouldn't be losing 50% of your DPS to heal a DD who got hit by an AOE. Off-Global healing is something all three healers have that is more than enough for non-raid tier content" is not an example of what I was discussing and therefore it doesn't really apply. The example of Nidhog is a prime example of what I'm talking about.

You say it's a fringe minority but that's not been my experience. I run anywhere between 10 to 20 dungeons a day between three toons. I run the gambit from sastasha to singularity. In my experience over half of the DPS stand in WAY too many AOEs. I can understand casters but running into a ninja or a dragoon or a monk who runs in front of a boss and gets cleaved and I have to spend near 1/5th of my MP raising him just for him to do it again in the same fight is a common occurrence in the DF. Common enough to where I cringe when I see a ninja in the group.

I understand in some instances you would prefer to heal a dps and get the fight over with faster but my argument isn't about ONE dps standing in ONE aoe. It's not really even about idiots being idiots and yes, I realize you can't fix stupid but the "Why bother?" is rhetorical. It wouldn't be much fun if you stood in one place and pressed 1,2,3 and you got a golden trophy for participation. The post is not about calling someone out for being a moron or about numbers. It's not about telling SE to forgo mechanics. My post is about what is causing this and how to fix it. I honestly think that boredom is setting in when the mechanics are unchanging and become "cheeseable" due to high item level sync. This is teaching the new players bad habits and this leads to instances like the Aery run I mentioned.

All too often during my DF time the runs are horrible and cringe worthy. Maybe it's me just expecting too much out of a pug or maybe I've just had two months of "bad luck", but since I came back to the game I've started giving out comms to DPS for NOT standing in stupid and those have been few and far between.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

snip

The solution is simple: Stop healing them.

I know that may be the antithesis of the job, but I am dead serious. There comes a point where I will straight up ignore people who repeatedly take unnecessary damage or die. If they whine about it, I tell them "stop standing in aoes and you won't die." They can kick me all they want. Healer queues are typically fast, though it's never happened before. Of course, I don't abruptly become spiteful over a couple mistakes here or there. And ideally you should communicate with them before. If they don't listen however... I no longer care. It might sound a bit extreme, but you'll be amazed how fast people stop doing dumb things if you leave them on the ground for half the fight.

Overall though, I do agree with your precise: dungeons have become laughably easy, especially at the lower levels. This has resulted in an ever grow decrease in player skill because the game simply doesn't demand much until arguably Extreme. Of course there are some exceptions like Shinryu normal but they are sadly few and far in between. Bluntly stated, the game is more or less baby's first MMO when it comes to leveling. Because of that, you'll see bad players throughout the process, though I actually don't come across nearly as many as some suggest. Perhaps the most infuriating I get whenever I opt to run dungeons is DPS who won't aoe.

[DevonEllwood]

Sounds like you just had a couple of unfun parties. Here you go:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ry.-Let-s-vent.

[RokkuEkkusu]

Do you remember the "Pharos Sirius" dungeon that got released in 2.1 and many players failing and/or avoiding it like the plague? That should tell you the skill level of most of the player base. Keep in mind this dungeon at release was still nowhere near the level of the Hard and Extreme primals during the time.

Regardless of how hard or easy a mandatory or normal-leveled side quest becomes, bad players will always be bad if they make no effort to improve themselves when things do get challenging.

[Violet_Galaxy]

So as I stated in my other posts I recently came back to the game after a long hiatus. After two months of leveling another toon (healer/DPS/Tank pretty much in that order) I've noticed a pattern emerging. No one bothers with mechanics so I don't understand why developers even bother with mechanics anymore since no one bothers to learn them.

I understand that in early dungeons you can easily DPS down a boss without having to deal with mechanics (think sastasha) but isn't this just teaching new players just to ignore ALL mechanics? 90% of the duty finder groups I've been in the dps stand in aoes, pull mobs, and ignore ANY mechanics at all and they expect you to heal them through it, they don't bother killing the adds in things like qarn HM (the cactaur boss specifically) which wipes us over and over again. So why not just dumb the dungeons down to ignore position for dps, press 1, 2, 3 and run around like a chicken without a head, put heal totems up so they can heal themselves and make all bosses do 1 dmg with every attack? This seems to be the way the players want it.

Now, granted I've not completed Heavensward again so I haven't started on Stormblood dungeons (almost but not yet, up to the goober library atm.) but the pattern I see is the developers don't care to make the mechanics interesting because the majority of their player base is DPS and from what I've seen in the duty finder is they wanna press 1, 2, 3 and stand in stuff and blame everyone else when it fails. Take a look at RDM The dps is crazy high and they can easily yank aggro away from an inexperienced tank in early dungeons. Why? Think pandering to the masses. I don't blame the players I blame the developers for making mechanics skippable and teaching players bad habits.

Am I way off base in this?

You're not off base. But I've unfortunately had to learn to usually expect the worst of the worst utilizing duty finder. DPS standing aoe, tanks wearing healing gear, WHM that don't know what Holy is, I could write a thesis on this. I'm like you though, I expect mechanics to be followed and everyone to play their role correctly close to perfection, but alas we don't live in a perfect world.