Thread: A Suggestion for Dark Knight moving into 5.0/Eventual Rework

Originally Posted by Speaks

You also have vengeance and upheaval/onslaught.

Vengeance is not an AoE move inherently. If you want to include it, don't forget Eye for an Eye then.
The other two are not AoE moves at all. I listed every skill i could remember that was purely an AoE move. DRK inherently has more than WAR.

This given that criteria is strictly factual.

You're also not discrediting what I just said. As well, you're reinforcing that you don't fully understand how to run with DRK in dungeon content.
Of course it'll be bad if you're playing it bad. That falls onto the player not playing their class well.

No amount of job buffs can improve someone playing poorly.

This is not Dark Knight's identity, it doesn't bolster or form a new one either, it over-complicates a job that only has very specific things that need to be altered to restore it's identity. You've no idea what you're talking about and it shows in that you suggested a bloody tank stance shouldn't increase enmity, which is the entire point of a tank stance. Furthermore, putting DP and Carve and Spit on the same Cooldown makes no sense even with your proposed changes as the two actions are completely unrelated to one another and serve entirely different functions.

Secondly, Dark Knight's identity as the speedy counter tank; as it was in Heavensward (with a GCD and APM that was only second to Ninja), is the identity they should be striving to restore. Not any of this... nonsensical garbage that literally spits int he face of the job as a whole.

Dark Knight currently suffers. It has deceptively low AoE DPS, and while it certainly is not Paladin, it is still much worse than Warrior's.

This is also wrong, extremely wrong.

Dark Knights have the ability to use TBN for Blood which gives use of Quietus, which restores MP, which under the affect of Blood Weapon will restore 800 MP per enemy hit, with Delirium up that's 21s of raw MP and Blood gain, which if one spams DA Abyssal you'll create a fountain of damage, MP and personal healing that frankly makes you damn near invincible if you have so much as even a single CD up. This is excluding using DADP to prevent over-capping MP as well as the blood you'll gain from Salted Earth being properly placed and ticking on all enemies.

WAR has inner release and can burst things down quickly, sure, but it terms of large pulls, DRK can handle them for much longer and far more effectively than the other two, hands down. One could even argue that Dark Knight and Warrior are comparable in terms of their performance in dungeons as both have unique kits that seem tailored around surviving big pulls while outputting exceptional AoE damage all the while. Just because you or someone else might not utilize the kit to the fullest doesn't mean they are bad, and there needs to be some accountability there.

Frankly, as a DRK main since 3.X, I don't want any of what you've listed; though props for not changing TBN.
Most Dark Knights you ask will tell you that we want a fast job with less reliance on Dark Arts and more of a focus on Blood.

Bloodspiller now deals it's damage normally for the first enemy, 10% less for the second, 20% less for the third, 30% less for the fourth, 40% less for the fifth, and 50% less for all remaining enemies.

Okay.... just noticed this... and like... uhhh... what?

You do realize that they only do diminishing returns for AoEs and Bloodspiller is single target, r-right?? Like, you're not getting it confused with Quietus are you? Because this would be like telling a Warrior "Heeeey your fifth Fell Cleave in Inner Release is going to have half of it's potency"

I can't... I am reading through more of your suggestions and they just... make me feel like you have no idea how the kit worked in 3.X or now. It's hard to really want to reply or comment on anything else, so I'll just leave it at this and bail out. You can reply, by all means, but I won't be coming back to read it. Felt it was courteous to say, since I really have no more input to give... these suggestions are just bad and I am at a loss for words. :/

Originally Posted by Aniya_Estlihn

Snip :/

DP/CaS shared CD was changed before you even posted.

I understand the AoE rotation. Quite well in fact. I understand TBN gives you Blood gauge, and Quietus gives you MP back. Blood Price also give MP, albeit much smaller amounts.

But DA Abyssal is not going to pull over Decimates in DPS. My bigger trash pulls die only a few short seconds after my last Decimate.

You shouldn't need to handle pulls for super long periods of time, DRK will never pull over WAR in DPS in a trash pull if you are running dungeons.

If you truly believe that please, run a dungeon and parse it in direct comparison to a WAR run. I thought DRK AoE was really good too, and is easy and sustainable to boot! But it isn't everything it seems to be.

I had listed Bloodspiller as able to cleave. Removing Quietus and baking that effect into Syphon was fine, Bloodspiller is used to maintain Blood Weapon under the suggested changes though; you need to be able to extend it's duration via it and the easiest way to do that is make Bloodspiller good whenever you can possibly use it. The only two abilities that gained AoE were Blood Spiller and Syphon, both for different reasons.

Thank you for posting regardless.

Originally Posted by Speaks

DRK doesn't have more AoE if you still have to spend a GCD to use it.

Also Vengeance definitely counts since it is part of WARs kit. Onslaught/Upheaval are not AoE, but they are both free and off global. Something that cannot be said for CaS or Dark Passenger.

What is your potency per second in a dungeon? What is WAR's? What is your DPS on a triple pack pull for DRK in the Burn right now? Because WAR can break 6k.

I am unsure why you are so incredibly insistent on being hostile though, you could afford to be more constructive like Kabooa.

Except... you're still wrong. DRK and WAR BOTH have to spend a GCD to do their AoE. Everyone has to spend a GCD to do an action. Just... wow.

Again. I listed everything WAR/DRK has that hits more than a single target. Upheaval and Onslaught aren't being included in this as... they don't hit more than a single target. Again, by that criteria, DRK has more options than WAR.

What is your TP/Beast gauge per second? DRK has means of refilling their MP continually. WAR has Equilibrium to refill TP when in Defiance, HP in Deliverance. Only their combos generate beast gauge, and Infuriate is a one time, +50 to the gauge.
TBN is up way more frequently, when it breaks (which it should in a large pull), you get 50 gauge. enough for a Quietus, which is more MP, which is more AD's, or even if you drop grit and go with BW+Del; point is WAR is good at short-burst AoE damage dealing hindered by gauge and TP. Their means of refueling themselves pale in comparison to DRK's in the same scenario.

If you think I'm being hostile, I'm both sorry for you to think that and less so for me coming off as such. You're just flat out wrong in your assumption on the core gameplay loop of DRK, while simultaneously saying that it's bad because you think it's bad. In AoE situations, DRK wins hands down compared to WAR/PLD in dungeon pulls. This isn't some wild speculative quip, people who are leagues better than myself echo the same sentiment. It's not hard to see that statement made time and time and time again on these forums if you'd but look for it.

Originally Posted by Speaks

Nor does it absolve you of being rude to strangers. Go ahead and go line by line, I would welcome the feedback or even the chance to show you may yourself not be correct.

I am not ignoring feedback, I responded to Kabooa as I will do with others too.

Disclaimer: Sure, I feel like killing a few hours, and I just might. I know my analysis of your breakdown will be lacking, but hey, I'm willing to have people nitpick my critique of your ideas. I won't get defensive about having my analysis being called out for being bad.

But let's get this much outta the air. Having your viewpoint challenged by a person does not make them rude. Having a belief challenged doesn't make the challenger rude. Using tu quoque and false cause arguments whenever people challenge your viewpoints isn't what I'd say counts as "responding to feedback." See your posts, #19, #16, #13, #11, and #5.

Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

Snip

Both DRK and WAR spend a GCD for their AoE, that is the point. As such let's directly compare and contrast;

Decimate: 280 potency. 5 of 7 will Direct Crit on start of pull.

DADP: 280potency once per 60 seconds, off global.

So WAR gets 5 Direct Crit 280 potency attacks per 90 seconds, DRK gets one oGCD 280 potency attack per 60 seconds.

Abyssal Drain: 120 potency in an AoE.

Overpower: 130 potency in a cone.

Both are GCDs, DRK has slight advantage on GCD speed, but lacks the bonus potency.

Quietus: 210 potency

Steel Cyclone: 200 but restores health akin to Abyssal.


The only way DRK could win out is if the fight went for more than enough time to recast DADP but less time than for another IR. I cannot remember the last time a pull took me more than 40 seconds to burn though.

Originally Posted by Emiin

Hi! Emiin Vanih here, primary tank mentor and theorycrafter for The Balance, as well as The Theoryjerks. I was ignoring this post as best as I could until you flat out lied about TB's position on Dark Knight, and FFLogs.

For the most part you were being subjective, so I didn't really care about the topic. But when you misquoted both FFLogs and my personal stance, I had to step in.

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...nt&class=Tanks

FFLogs itself refutes the first claim of DRK being underpowered in DPS, in pretty much every percentile bracket. If you are considering logs for dungeons, there isn't any point in looking at them - no one actively competes in dungeons and many people play defensively.

At the moment, Dark Knight is in the lead in all of our respective theory sheetwork. If you got any information from The Balance, you are clearly misrepresenting the work we have done since the patch has released.

Now that I've stated our record of fact, now I'll dissect your post.

Your ideas for every ability revolves around the idea of an AoE powerhouse. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that we need any work in this matter. Having Syphon cleave, Abyssal doing 2.2x its damage, (more coming)

Hello Emiin!

I would like to quote myself really quick

Originally Posted by Speaks

FFLogs was used for the proposed changes, as was information and tools found on The Balance.

This is not saying the Balance endorsed my post, I am saying I used your tools and FFLogs to come to my respective changes for DRK.

I also would like to restate something I stated at the beginning of my original post:

Originally Posted by Speaks

Addressing the state of Dark Knight.Dark Knight and it's current state.

Dark Knight as of patch 4.4 has nothing inherently wrong in it's defensive options or DPS for raiding. Analyzing deeply shows that it can perform well enough at a high level to be useful and that it will not cause a group to meet enrage simply by it's presence in a party, nor is it currently unable to survive tank busters of the current tier. Far from it in fact, I believe Dark Knight is very strong defensively.

I have never stated DRK's single target DPS was subpar. In fact I pointed out that aside from AoE it's DPS is actually quite fine right now. It is not going to cause enrages or wipes at all, nor did I ever say that.

Originally Posted by Speaks

Both DRK and WAR spend a GCD for their AoE, that is the point. As such let's directly compare and contrast;

Decimate: 280 potency. 5 of 7 will Direct Crit on start of pull.

DADP: 280potency once per 60 seconds, off global.

So WAR gets 5 Direct Crit 280 potency attacks per 90 seconds, DRK gets one oGCD 280 potency attack per 60 seconds.

Abyssal Drain: 120 potency in an AoE.

Overpower: 130 potency in a cone.

Both are GCDs, DRK has slight advantage on GCD speed, but lacks the bonus potency.

Quietus: 210 potency

Steel Cyclone: 200 but restores health akin to Abyssal.


The only way DRK could win out is if the fight went for more than enough time to recast DADP but less time than for another IR. I cannot remember the last time a pull took me more than 40 seconds to burn though.

-sigh-

Okay. Lemme go through this for you.
You're comparing DECIMATE to DADP. inherently a flawed argument as one's a GCD, the other an oGCD with a recast.

Second: You're comparing AD to Overpower. Okay that's a start... but if you want to spam OP on a WAR, I hope you get a goad or a spire, because you're going to chew through your TP otherwise. DRK? DRK regenerates their MP leagues better than WAR does. I mentioned this. Equilibrium has a long recast, so good luck if you run out of TP. DRK? Played well, will not worry about running out of MP.

3rd: Steel Cyclone, without Unchained, will suffer a 20% damage loss because it isn't a thing outside of Defiance. DRK can drop Grit and still do Quietus, thereby suffering no damage loss. And AD's health regen is ONLY a thing when DA'd.

The more you post, I really hope you look back and reflect on the input given, and take it to heart and learn where your own shortcomings with DRK lie, and improve upon them. It'll only serve to make you a better DRK overall. But as it stands now, I still can't but say, again, you don't understand DRK enough.