Why do tanks need Determination stat still when they have Tenacity?

[Megguido]

Thanks for the reply. To be honest, this seems more of a "six of one, half a dozen of the other" kind of thing to me.

Each jobs respective kit, upon closer examination, seems to have its own benefits and drawbacks. I'll agree that the gap is not really significant, but disagree that PLD is at any meaningful disadvantage with mitigation.

I also speak from the perspective of being the MT 95% of the time and not being an Intervention/Cover dispenser for WARs or DRKs. ^^ In content that requires tank swaps, sure. I'll throw an Intervention on you before a TB and maybe even a Reprisal on the boss, time permitting, but I consider it more of a professional courtesy than an absolute rule.

All tanks can MT and OT, it's more about the efficient use of cooldowns from both tanks. Though it doesn't matter in dungeons or normal raids / trials, in extreme / savage modes PLD really shines as OT. Once PLD used Rampart and Sentinel, they're kinda naked since Sentinel has such a long cooldown (whereas WAR and DRK have more defensive abilities / shorter cooldowns). Used correctly, Intervention and Cover are very powerful abilities when you're OT.

Also, PLD loses tons of damage by pulling the boss and staying in Shield Oath (about 25% of their damage, which is around 1000 DPS) and they struggle to switch stances during a fight, unlike WAR and DRK. That's why you prefer having the other tank pull (then you can provoke and tank in Sword Oath for example).

[Snarky_Sunseeker]

Though it doesn't matter in dungeons or normal raids / trials...

I'm glad you're one of the people who realize that Normal strategies don't necessarily apply to Savage/EX, and vice versa. Sometimes, I get the impression that a lot of folks speak from a mistaken perspective of nothing existing outside of the latter content.

[DRKoftheAzure]

This, but to put Specific numbers, it takes an 1449 TEN stat in order to reduce incoming damage by 5% and increase damage by 5%. For the same amount of DET you get a 6.5% DPS increase without the damage taken reduction. It's about +.045% DPS per TEN, +.059% per DET. It's a fairly small gain, but one that adds up when you have 1500-2000 DET.

This raises the next question; why should tanks sacrifice that 5-11% damage reduction that also increases DPS by 5-11%(Tenacity) for a flat 7-12% DPS increase(Determination)? Me personally; I would go for that stat that gives me more DPS and mitigation over the stat that is just raw damage.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

This raises the next question; why should tanks sacrifice that 5-11% damage reduction that also increases DPS by 5-11%(Tenacity) for a flat 7-12% DPS increase(Determination)? Me personally; I would go for that stat that gives me more DPS and mitigation over the stat that is just raw damage.

Because mitigation only matters to a threshold. Anything above it is simply wasted stats unless your healers get an extra GCD out if it which will not happen. This is why Sentinal is objectively the worst of the big three tank CD. There is nothing that Vengeance or Shadow Wall won't cover. Therefore, making the extra 10% on a longer cooldown a worse trade. You essentially gain nothing but have to wait a full minute longer.

Tenacity would work better in WoW, where outgoing damage comes very quickly and consistently throughout the fight. In FFXIV, auto attacks aren't that threatening and busters are entirely predictable.

Simply put, Tenacity isn't bad, you'll just never have any real need for it.

[Snarky_Sunseeker]

So in the interest of honesty, re: damage mitigation, I thought I'd share that the final phase of O12 was a bit of an eye opener for me. I discovered in the process of learning the fight that if I wasn't careful, I would indeed run out of defensive CDs. Prior to O12, I never experienced hard hitting boss attacks and TBs in such rapid succession that I ended up burning through CDs and my Oath Gauge so quickly, but I think I now understand what context some of you were speaking from. So yes, I'd say given that the other two jobs have more CDs at their disposal with shorter duty cycles, it does place them at an advantage in that fight.

To tell you the truth, though, I think it was about time that WAR and DRK were given a chance to be the heroes for once. ^^ It also means this is an opportunity to improve my own skills and make up for those shortcomings.

Sometimes the best challenge is rocking a "sub-optimal" job and defying everyone's expectations.

[Snarky_Sunseeker]

...why should tanks sacrifice that 5-11% damage reduction that also increases DPS by 5-11%(Tenacity) for a flat 7-12% DPS increase(Determination)?

Why not both? I don't see how the two are mutually exclusive, so I meld Determination and Tenacity. Still, what works for me may not necessarily work for you or someone else, so go with what's optimal for your play style.

[Kabooa]

Why not both? I don't see how the two are mutually exclusive, so I meld Determination and Tenacity. Still, what works for me may not necessarily work for you or someone else, so go with what's optimal for your play style.

Generally speaking you have the stat budget to push two stats and dip into a third, or push one and mix two.

You won't get a better singular return than Crit in terms of damage potential though, other than Speed on pure GCD classes, but so far that's Black mage.

[DRKoftheAzure]

Because mitigation only matters to a threshold. Anything above it is simply wasted stats unless your healers get an extra GCD out if it which will not happen. This is why Sentinal is objectively the worst of the big three tank CD. There is nothing that Vengeance or Shadow Wall won't cover. Therefore, making the extra 10% on a longer cooldown a worse trade. You essentially gain nothing but have to wait a full minute longer.

Tenacity would work better in WoW, where outgoing damage comes very quickly and consistently throughout the fight. In FFXIV, auto attacks aren't that threatening and busters are entirely predictable.

Simply put, Tenacity isn't bad, you'll just never have any real need for it.

And now the next question; do we want content where outgoing damage comes very quickly? Or do we already have that but most people didn't notice it?

[Bourne_Endeavor]

And now the next question; do we want content where outgoing damage comes very quickly? Or do we already have that but most people didn't notice it?

I'd love content with higher outgoing damage. The fact healers spend between 60-80% of their time DPSing is outright absurd. The whole reason people put so much emphasise on offense in this game is because nothing else matters. Look at the sorry state of enmity. It's become such a joke nowadays, they may as well remove it entirely come 5.0.

Alas, they aren't going to change things to that extent because it'd make things too hard on inexperienced players.

[DRKoftheAzure]

I'd love content with higher outgoing damage. The fact healers spend between 60-80% of their time DPSing is outright absurd. The whole reason people put so much emphasise on offense in this game is because nothing else matters. Look at the sorry state of enmity. It's become such a joke nowadays, they may as well remove it entirely come 5.0.

Alas, they aren't going to change things to that extent because it'd make things too hard on inexperienced players.

A very good viewpoint. I like fights like Ratholos where there are almost no telegraphs and you are constantly moving(though once you learn the safe spot it becomes a face roll). Enemies dropping puddles that cause all sorts of bad if you stand in it is a good way to get people move out of it especially if it hits hard. The last boss in The Burn hits really hard even for mostly gear capped and melded tanks(healer was very undergeared and was not melded in my experience and I was playing DRK).