Samurai?

[whiskeybravo]

The biggest issue samurai suffers from is the stigma from the majority of its subpar playerbase, but the job itself is good. Far from a good spot? Plleeeeaaasee.

This is the biggest issue. I spent about an hour kicking gray sams out of 8s farm party a few weeks ago (for context my buddy and I struggled all week so finally made a serious party when the weekend came around, I wouldn't normally just kick people like that but we were on a mission). If you're going to play Sam that's fine, but at least be decent at it lol.

[Wayfinder3]

Guess that means DRG is bad since they don't help a raid's "defensive utility." Consider that a job doesn't have to interact with the raid to be good.

drg suffers from being subpar in prog too, but it at least has piercing debuff/litany to give it some merit, sam doesn't even have either of those

[Adventica6]

They are mediocre imo, decent dmg, I'm one of the few players who doesn't cry about not getting a raid buff from them, they are fine to play.

They aren't outstanding by any means but they can wail on a mob I guess ?

[Janhyua]

sam and nin dos diffrence is about 800, sometimes 700..

TA in an ideal setting, if the group is well played is about 800..

even if TA can be a it betercat times, so can the sam burst in on certain phases or adds be better..

The main thing about Ninja is not TA..... its Smoke screen on (bard/healer) as well it allow the tank to stay on dps stance more often and without the use of emity combo because emity combo is a dps lost

and lets not forget Shadewalker it allow the user to generate 80% of the emity to the tank which provide even more aggro allowing the tank to start its opener without been on tank stance

combine that and you will have a TA+Smokescreen+ Shadewalker and you will have a huge dps difference

Samurai will never replace ninja EVER

[Janhyua]

Guess that means DRG is bad since they don't help a raid's "defensive utility." Consider that a job doesn't have to interact with the raid to be good.

Dragoon has Dragon sight(5% damage to a ally) and battle litany(crit rate buff for party) and Piercing Debuff for bard

I think that enough to beat Samurai

lets be real here I have actually tested this

a 90% perf Samurai will never beat a Dragoon who is doing 50% perf because of its raid dps it provide because they get the same result

however when you have 90% perf dragoon its pretty much out dps a samurai who is 90% perf on raid dps

To actually qualify a Samurai doing its job he/she has to do at lease 85~95% perf to be not a dps lost for the party

[Megguido]

Dragoon has Dragon sight(5% damage to a ally) and battle litany(crit rate buff for party) and Piercing Debuff for bard

I think that enough to beat Samurai

lets be real here I have actually tested this

a 90% perf Samurai will never beat a Dragoon who is doing 50% perf because of its raid dps it provide because they get the same result

A 50th percentile DRG is around 5.5k DPS. A 90th percentile SAM is around 6.7k DPS. I'm not sure that Litany, Sight and Disembowel are a 1.2k DPS buff. Even in a very optimized environment, all of DRG's buffs are worth around 820 rDPS (taking one of Bacon Tomato Lettuce clear on O6S as an example). In our somewhat midcore static, our DRG brought about 530 rDPS.

At equal skill levels, yes, a DRG will bring more damage than a SAM (same goes for NIN). But better have a good SAM than a mediocre NIN/DRG.

Imo, SAM is better than NIN in a PUG group where no one's going to really take advantage of TA or Shadewalker. Also it's easier to play at a decent level.

[Shiroe]

The main thing about Ninja is not TA..... its Smoke screen on (bard/healer) as well it allow the tank to stay on dps stance more often and without the use of emity combo because emity combo is a dps lost

and lets not forget Shadewalker it allow the user to generate 80% of the emity to the tank which provide even more aggro allowing the tank to start its opener without been on tank stance

combine that and you will have a TA+Smokescreen+ Shadewalker and you will have a huge dps difference

Samurai will never replace ninja EVER

true, totally forgot shadewalker/smokebomb that influences the overall dps (usually the tanks dps)

that aside, drg & nin rdps and sam's dps difference are very close

a top sam schould still out dps a nin vy ca. 800 and a drg by 600 about..

even if the sam lacks a bit on the sustained dps numbers, its aoe and burst can be more usfull in certain phases (burn down seperate adds or nails).., making up for the lose..

put a sam in a drg, mch, brd... or nin, mch brd comp, and the sam should get near 900 more than a nin (if the all are doing top)

but sam is still not ideal in all fights, but in some it can use its burst or aoe advantage and make up for the difference.. (in edit 4.4 sam might finally be the missing gap to filling in whats needed for all fights for world speed kills, not only replacing mch)

aside of world fastest speed kills, the diffrence is very small.., but there sam needs to get a possible spot too (just if sam does fully get the spot, sam will be too overplayed: as one of highest dps, also used in speedkill metas and "easy" to play)

[Zerathor]

Sam can do alright, but its in a similar position to blm: be really damn good at the job, or don't do it.

Other dps jobs have at least some kind of utility to bring to the table, in case they aren't extremely good at damage so they're given a bit of leeway. As a pure dps job that brings nothing unique to the table however, you NEED to be ahead of everyone (and by a good margin), or they will notice you fast.

[Megguido]

Sam can do alright, but its in a similar position to blm: be really damn good at the job, or don't do it.

Other dps jobs have at least some kind of utility to bring to the table, in case they aren't extremely good at damage so they're given a bit of leeway. As a pure dps job that brings nothing unique to the table however, you NEED to be ahead of everyone (and by a good margin), or they will notice you fast.

I kinda agree with that. If you're not playing SAM or BLM well enough, you don't have the utility to still help people.
Though very few jobs can bring something to the table while they suck, and I'm mostly thinking about BRD, which brings great utility other than a damage boost (Minne for insane Deployed Adlos, Mana song for healers...). A shitty NIN won't bring personal DPS nor raid DPS because if they can't play the job properly they might be also using TA, Shadewalker and Smokescreen badly.

NIN's DPS + TA is barely above a SAM's personal DPS (SAM is 600-800 DPS above NIN, depending on performance and at equal percentile). What makes NIN so good imo is Smokescreen and Shadewalker. Those two give a lot of leeway to us tanks in very healing heavy fights, so the WHM isn't taking hate.

Hardcore statics favor NIN over SAM for good reasons, because NIN allows for better levels of optimization (raid buffs synchro, less aggro combos on tank side). My concern is about all the statics being adamant about the fact that a NIN is required, where a samurai would be as valuable as a ninja in a "casual/midcore" environment.

[Satarn]

I agree that a bad player behind a utility-rich job can be just as bad as a poor selfish-dps. That TA isn't really worth much if it's used all over the place or even not at all.

The main issue with SAM and BLM both, isn't even their literal rdps contribution. SE could buff their pdps so high that it would actually outweigh all the utility other jobs provide, granting them a place in the speedkill meta, but they would still simply be less "fun" to have in your group. It's kind of subjective obviously, but for the majority of players, doing high dps feels good. Big part of enjoyment in raiding is trying to optimize, striving to improve so that you can land those highest percentiles and that simply can't happen if you lack raid buffs other parties have. Of course good players will do well in any composition, but there is always the fact that you could do better if only you had that one buff.