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  1. #171
    Player
    Nandina's Avatar
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    Jul 2014
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    Ul'Dah
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    72
    Character
    Nandina Rose
    World
    Jenova
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    Scholar Lv 64
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodric View Post
    You can't claim that this is about 'fairness' when you've called for the game not to be released outside of Japan because it doesn't bend over backwards to give you exactly what you want. Multiple players have given you advice in regards to designing a character to your specifications and whenever it is pointed out you seem to immediately move the goalposts elsewhere.
    You’re stretching the truth a bit. That’s not me campaigning for the game to be removed from everywhere but Japan because I have a problem with the options. Read that dialogue back. If I released a product outside of the US, I’m not going to say that people elsewhere have no right to critique my product despite the fact I’m advertising to them. Critique comes with the territory. Criticism leads to improvement. People leave product reviews all the time. KaivaC said that it being a Japanese MMO makes the discussion a moot point, which I disagreed with. It being a Japanese MMO doesn’t immunize FFXIV from the critique of those outside Japan when it’s being marketed outside its home country. To say otherwise is ridiculous. Clearly they care about the audience outside of it to some extent. I know for certain if I didn’t care about a demographic outside of my country I wouldn’t bother with a western localization team. I know I wouldn’t bother putting any other language forum besides Japanese on my website. I wouldn’t plaster advertisements on non-Japanese websites. I wouldn’t plaster it on the foreign equivalent of the Playstation Store. There’s plenty of Japanese games that don’t get released outside of Japan. I wouldn’t critique character customization on those games being limited because it’s not being marketed towards me. Therefor if SE has a problem with foreign critique on their product, then again common sense dictates that they not release the product outside of Japan.

    The issues I've discussed have been the same issues from the beginning of the thread. Lack of hair styles, off skin color, and lack of differing facial types. Noticed I actually stopped talking about facial types for the most part (unless someone responded to me when I mentioned it) as they explained why it would've been harder because software has to be written (in other words laziness). The comment has been made by others that because it's a Japanese MMO, they cater to Japan and only keep Japan in mind when making decisions. And being that I'm paying money, I'm free to criticize. That's fair. Point blank, period. Have you ever thought that maybe the suggestions people were making didn't either address my problem accurately? Telling me to make another playable race, when I'm talking about Hyurs specifically is not very good advice and isn't staying on topic. I'm not critiquing the options for Roegadyns. That's basically telling me to avoid the issue altogether by picking something else. Micropanther7 told me about the reshader and I asked further questions, and they responded. I don’t play on PC, so I can’t utilize this option and I’m not buying the game a second time to do so. I’m not opposed to advice that’s applicable.

    Quote Originally Posted by KaivaC View Post
    Why you want me to address this with you, when you were not even directly involved in that conversation that I was having with them, I don't know. If I have an opinion to give about a subject or a person, I will state it - I very rarely sugarcoat anything on the forums.

    Honestly, with the way your going on about underrepresentation, this feels so much like you're wanting to be offended by something.


    Neither are Hyurs, if you really want to be technical about it. Dunno why you cherry picked me and singled out Roes, but it's whatever. I'll repeat this again - I've managed to do it with BOTH and Hyur and a Hellsguard Roe with the default 3.55 character creation before ultimately settling on Au RA.
    You quoted me, and said that it invited me to criticism, so I clarified why I said what I said. Regardless of who you’re talking to, when my name is mentioned, I’m going to respond if I feel the need. Everyone else has been hopping into other people’s conversations and no one complained about that. You’re posting on a public forum. If you didn’t want me or anyone else interjecting then should’ve contacted Magic-Mal personally. It’s not about being offended, I can’t be offended by what’s not there. So again, you’re gaslighting me by constantly suggesting I’m offended. Hypothetically, if I was offended, it still doesn’t invalidate anything I’ve stated. I’m not cherry picking you, I have tried my best to respond to everyone that I could (and I’m sure I missed some). You literally said:

    Quote Originally Posted by KaivaC View Post
    The thing is, you say you want to hit at least hit the dart board... But you can. Hyur and Roes can... I've done it before I settled on Au Ra.
    So I responded to that and disagreed. What I’m guessing the issue is here, is that many don’t fully understand what an undertone is, and that’s leading to the discrepancy. It’s coming across as though many feel that undertone and skin color are the same thing, and it’s not. Two people can have the same base skin color, but different undertones. If people don’t know what an undertone is, then they should research it or ask. I would’ve gladly explained. Many have brought up and agreed with the limitations of the character customization system, but when I’m more specific instead of being broad, that’s the issue apparently. So again, I have to sugarcoat. Is it saying that the game mainly offers a white aesthetic what shattered everyone’s world? So I have to be ultra PC and color blind now? If the situation was reversed, and someone said that the game mainly catered to black or biracial people, I would not be offended. My skin isn’t paper thin like that. I would either agree or disagree, but I wouldn’t start claiming the person is starting a race war. Going to that extent is a huge exaggeration, and saying otherwise is a reach. Nor would I use it being a fantasy world as an excuse. If anything, it being a fantasy world that’s still being developed allows room for the changes. We saw Yugiri and had the ninja job long before we saw Doma. Meaning SE could release these features and not even explain them for years into the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joven View Post
    Again it ultimately comes down to what SE wants to put in THEIR game whether you like it or not. And at no point have I seen anyone on here justifying SE's decisions, just pointing out that you have options. Also, maybe try not insulting people, it makes you seem arrogant and cheapens whatever argument you may have.
    When I say justifying SE’s decisions, I’m not talking about just this thread alone, which is why I made sure to say the forum. Again, it can be THEIR game but I have the right to criticize like everyone else when I’m spending MY money whether you like it or not, or am I only allowed to criticize aspects of the game the community deems acceptable, in a very specific way? But I can’t help but notice you are doing just that, justifying that SE can do what it wants because it’s their game, which is an easy cop out. While I agree with that, the people using the weak “this is fantasy and not real life” tried better than that. Your response doesn’t add to the discussion at all.

    If people are being manipulative and gaslighting, and claiming that I’m saying the game is racist, which was never the argument; or that I want a character that looks exactly like me, which again was never the argument, then I’m going to go in and let have. I’m not going to keep clarifying the same point a hundred times. I’m not about to sit around and let people put words in my mouth. I’m not going to let people claim that I’m trying to start a race war, when I’m not. Notice I haven’t been short-tempered with you or other people, just certain individuals because they kept deflecting. Everyone who is a member of this forum could use those same petty tactics against me, and I’m still not backing down.

    It doesn’t matter if me insulting a select few people cheapens my argument against them, because their comments largely were irrelevant. Claiming I’m crying racism when I wasn’t cheapens their arguments. You have Vidu who doesn’t really care about the topic and has admitted it themselves, but yet chooses to vehemently comment. You have others mentioning Roegadyn, Au’Ra, and Miqo’te as if they have a point when the discussion is Hyurs. I wouldn’t discuss carpentry when everyone else is talking about sewing, and I wouldn’t say that the wooden tables available come in a brown hue when someone mentions that their thread doesn’t have that same color available.
    (4)

  2. #172
    Player
    Nandina's Avatar
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    Jul 2014
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    Ul'Dah
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    72
    Character
    Nandina Rose
    World
    Jenova
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 64
    Quote Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor View Post
    No, Tumblr just over-exaggerates or creates problems where there isn't one. You fall into that category, especially how you've taken it upon yourself to speak on behalf of everyone. Who made you the arbiter of race and supposed inclusivity? FFXIV has no inclusivity problem. You're simply looking to be offended, and speaking over other non-people who have also disagreed with you.

    Apparently, you have a low tolerance for BS... yet you made this thread. Suppose you never said hypocritical BS.
    And who exactly gave you the authority to determine that others don’t have a problem simply because you don’t? Who gave you the authority to speak for others and to determine that FFXIV doesn’t have an inclusivity issue? Seems like you’re speaking over people.There were others in the thread who agreed with me, and you’re trying to erase that fact. There are people I know IRL who agree with me. Just because you and ten others, disagree with me, doesn’t mean that my point is BS. Just because you personally haven’t seen it mentioned before now doesn’t mean the thread is BS. So you’re looking mighty hypocritical over there yourself. You’re speaking over me by declaring my intent with this thread was to be offended, when instead it was to get added customization. Because at the end of the day, that’s what it really boiled down to. And evidently there is an inclusivity issue amongst a few members of the community given yours and other’s tired responses. I didn’t speak on the behalf of everyone, just a certain demographic of the player base who would in fact like these options. What I eat, doesn’t make you shit. Some women don’t like wearing dresses, but I’m not going to go out of my way to counter why they shouldn’t have pants, when I still have access to dresses. Why? Because it doesn’t affect me. I’m also not going to tell her that she’s speaking on behalf of all women, and she’s creating a non issue, when clearly the issue is that women don’t have the option to wear pants. What do you personally lose out of players having the option to have more skin options? What do you personally lose out of Hyurs having added nose and mouth options that are fuller and broader?

    Because some black people partially disagreed with me, doesn’t mean I have no point. Just because others, regardless of ethnicity, disagree with me doesn’t mean I have to concede. Hell, historically the Western world thought the Earth was flat at one point, and to say otherwise was punishable by death. That did not stop Copernicus from being correct in stating it was round, and the ignorant masses from being wrong. In other words, I don’t have to agree or follow along with the majority of people on this thread. My point isn’t validated by likes, or invalidated by dislikes. You’re mad because I’m not acquiescing to the status-quo. You’re mad because I’m unapologetically shaking the table. I wouldn’t care if every member of the forum swooped in against me, I’m going to stand by what I said.

    And did you really call us non-people? So if we’re not people, what are we?
    (5)

  3. #173
    Player
    Nandina's Avatar
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    Jul 2014
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    Ul'Dah
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    72
    Character
    Nandina Rose
    World
    Jenova
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    Scholar Lv 64
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsumdere View Post
    .
    I didn’t ignore your post, I quoted from that exact post where you posted the picture. Saying that either of our foundation colors aren’t there doesn’t justify why they can’t be added in, and it doesn’t explain why they aren’t. It also doesn’t justify why the blocks on the color grid are identical. It doesn’t negate my initial point or my response to you. The picture you posted was a darker Hyur with a red undertone (I already said the red undertone was there), and that wasn’t anyone’s kinky/curly hair. Just because you feel that there are a good variety of skin tones, doesn’t mean I have to feel the same way as you. So just because you’re cold, that means I’m not hot? That’s your opinion and I’m not obligated to share it. Your choice to not ask for Asian skin tones that match you, has nothing to do with me asking for more varied shades of brown. No one is saying that’s a grave social injustice. No one is saying not having a wider array of skin tones is a civil rights issue. It’s not my fault that there were very few options for other phenotypes on the Hyur. I just happened to point out that imbalance. If there was not a discrepancy to begin with, people wouldn’t ask for other hair options and facial features.

    You’re arguing semantics. You all are hyper sensitive and stuck on the word race, and the fact I used real life as examples of the type of phenotypes I’m speaking of. There’s nothing wrong with mentioning black people; there’s nothing wrong with mentioning white people. It’s reality and a much more simpler way to articulate what I was referring to because everyone knows what a black and white person look like when they log off. As I get older, I see why Squidward had very low tolerance for Patrick, because explaining a simple easily understood concept to you and a few others is just as mind numbing. Saying “Character Creation Has A Race Problem” stands, because the specific race (Hyur) has limited customization. Limited customization being the problem. Therefor Character Customization Has A Race Problem. Even If I titled the thread “Problem With Limited Hyur Customization”, it wouldn’t have changed the point. Again, there’s mention of tumblr as if mentioning it adds weight to your argument, but you and a few others are clearly the ones who desperately need a trigger warning.
    (2)

  4. #174
    Player
    Melichoir's Avatar
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    Feb 2015
    Location
    Uldah
    Posts
    152
    Character
    Desia Demarseille
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by wondergroove View Post
    Except it was literally the first thing I noticed when I first played XIV back in beta. Just because no one brought it up til now doesn't mean it was never an issue or that it wasn't noticed.

    And yet, youre still here, still playing, and only chiming in about ti right now. So either your full of it, its not that big an issue to you, or youre either too lazy or cowardly to speak your mind about issues you deem worth discussing until someone else does. Give as much gunk to the Op as people would like, at least they made a thread and took teh risk of putting their thoughts out there.


    Quote Originally Posted by wondergroove View Post
    Also if I cut out everything that I enjoy because there were ignorant or harmful things in them, there would literally be nothing left. Everything nowadays can have something wrong with it because there is still TONS of bias out there. I can enjoy things and also acknowledge that sometimes they aren't perfect. Then I talk about those things, and how they could be better.
    This comes off as "Well, yeah its bad and bothers me, but not enough that Ill stop playing!"

    Youre making a personal value judgement: The short comings of this game and your feelings about said subject are less important than you being entertained. Ill tell ya something, no matter how fun a game is, if there is an overt racist message from the creators, Im not going to be playing that game.

    Quote Originally Posted by wondergroove View Post
    I play this MMO because I have a lovely group of friends who I play it with and who don't play anything else, and I still very much enjoy the story and a lot of the fights. But when I notice things that I know aren't good, I still acknowledge them. I still enjoy everything else, I just don't ignore harmful things just so it's more convenient for my personal comfort.
    Again, youre doing cost analysis here: What must you put up with to reap a particular reward. You are literally saying "This thing that bothers me is less important than these other things." The catch with these kind of stances is teh same problem the OP has: they ignore it when it serves them, but run to the forums and talk about what a travesty it is. If the issue is that important, stop playing the game. Stick to your beliefs and dont compromise them if they mean that much to you. If you have the luxury to put your beliefs on silence when it suits you, then those beliefs arent important.

    Quote Originally Posted by wondergroove View Post
    As for why I or anyone else didn't bring it up sooner... *looks back at all the replies that amount to "OMG EVERYONE OFFENDED OVER NOTHING NOWADAYS JUST SHUT UP OR UNSUB LOL"

    ...gee, I wonder why anyone would be hesitant about bringing it up on the internet of all places. I couldn't even imagine why.

    And there it is: the "But I half expect someone to deflect by saying 'They werent being given the chance cause...reasons.'"

    Yeah, there are people who say things like that. There are also people who give nuanced answers. Thats part of public discussions. You either accept that facet or forfeit your right to have a public opinion. No one is stopping you or anyone from voicing their concerns and points, but dont expect everyone to just agree either. If you post an opinion, expect people to disagree and pick your opinion apart. You dont like that? Then dont share your opinions. These forums, btw, do a pretty good job at counteracting heckler's veto. And a lot of responses have been meaningful here. But sure, characterize it all as "OMG EVERYONE OFFENDED!" as a reason why this issue has been a non issue for so long.
    (1)

  5. #175
    Player
    Nandina's Avatar
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    Jul 2014
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    Ul'Dah
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    72
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    Nandina Rose
    World
    Jenova
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    Scholar Lv 64
    Quote Originally Posted by PaulCotton View Post
    You bring up an interesting topic, thank you.

    However have you considered that this is a fantasy world where Africa does not exist. These people are:
    Elezen.
    Hyur.
    Lalafell.
    Miqo'te.
    Roegadyn.
    Au Ra.

    You are right that a light skinned person with caucasian features can create a close approximation to their own appearance...
    If you're looking for a character creator with many many options try Black Desert Online.

    The art style here is based on anime tropes and the art of Yoshitaka Amano. African's are not commonly seen in Anime and when they are their drawn representation can appear a bit racist.

    If you don't want to look like a little light skinned anime babe then make a Roegadyn or an Au Ra with some wild skin color. Create something that isn't commonly seen if you want to express your personal diversity. Create diversity in the world of Hydaelyn.
    I was actually a brown skinned Au Ra at one point when I first started Heavensward is the ironic thing. I like to switch it up periodically. I never attempted to make a Hyur before so wasn't aware of the limitations until now.
    (0)

  6. #176
    Player
    wondergroove's Avatar
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    Mar 2015
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    Character
    Mohtlona Solkroegawyn
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by PaulCotton View Post
    You bring up an interesting topic, thank you.

    However have you considered that this is a fantasy world where Africa does not exist. These people are:
    Elezen.
    Hyur.
    Lalafell.
    Miqo'te.
    Roegadyn.
    Au Ra.

    You are right that a light skinned person with caucasian features can create a close approximation to their own appearance...
    If you're looking for a character creator with many many options try Black Desert Online.

    The art style here is based on anime tropes and the art of Yoshitaka Amano. African's are not commonly seen in Anime and when they are their drawn representation can appear a bit racist.

    If you don't want to look like a little light skinned anime babe then make a Roegadyn or an Au Ra with some while skin color. Create something that isn't commonly seen if you want to express your personal diversity. Create diversity in the world.
    Except that people who aren't white shouldn't HAVE to choose non-human races to feel like they're being represented. Because being shoe-horned into a non-human race because it's literally the only option that shares your physical traits isn't at all "dehumanizing", right?

    Also, Hyur are Human's. You can argue over the name all you like, but that's what they are and were designed to represent. Pretty much every fantasy game allows you to choose a human character if given the option, because 1) sometimes people want to play as something more familiar and 2) sometimes people like to see themselves as the protagonist. If there is an option to be a human character with caucasian features, there is no reasonable excuse as to why there shouldn't be options to play as ANY kind of human.

    Humans exist in the real world, and have been added to fantasy games as a choice to make the characters more relatable. If they're only relatable to a small amount of all humans, then something is wrong here.
    (9)


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  7. #177
    Player
    Tsumdere's Avatar
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    Jan 2017
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    Ishgard
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    303
    Character
    Ix'ajaw Inikh
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Astrologian Lv 52
    Quote Originally Posted by Nandina View Post
    -snip-
    1. You did not quote from the original post I put the screenshot in.

    2. It was direct proof there is black features in this game (which was an argument of yours, don't say it wasn't), nothing to do with skintone.

    3. Lol. You directly edited Bourne_Endevor's quote from "non-white" to "non-people".

    Edit :

    4. You changed your post to quote my screenshot post once you were called out for ignoring me. I see you and I know other people do too.

    You are troll and/or purposefully inflammatory. I was giving it the benefit of the doubt because I have genuinely known people like you in real life, but quote editing sealed the deal. Anyone else can talk to me about the issues since I think the representation of minorities in video games is a fascinating topic that deserves to be discussed (wrote many an essay on the portrayal of women and ethnic minorities in horror/video games), but not particularly interested in someone who cherry picks. Goodbye.
    (9)
    Last edited by Tsumdere; 07-13-2018 at 09:38 AM.

  8. #178
    Player
    Joven's Avatar
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    Dec 2013
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    248
    Character
    Joven Clayworth
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Samurai Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by wondergroove View Post
    I never said it was malicious or even intentional. It doesn't have to be either to be wrong or worth criticizing, though, tbh.

    I'm already aware of that this is a Japanese game and of the... uh, difficulties that Japan has with representation. Anime is already a great example of that. I'm not examining this through a "Western" lens; I'm looking through the lens of "human beings are extremely diverse and maybe art should be representative of that."

    I understand the "reasoning" behind it. It doesn't make it any less of an issue, worth talking about, or something people should just blow over because everything else is just as bad. Ignorance isn't a good excuse for putting barely any effort into being respectfully diverse.

    So yeah, I am going to ignore the reasons behind this particular lack of representation. I was aware of them before, I know them again now, and they're still not "good" enough to justify it.
    I've said this before earlier in this post: works of fiction do not need to be diverse or represent anyone, respectfully or otherwise. it's solely at the descretion of the creator. I don't say this as someone who's white, I say this as someone who doesn't feel like I need to be "represented" in anything. If this game only had characters who were of African decent, if all characters were female or completely non-human I'd still play it as long as it looked interesting. My identity isn't my skin color or facial features.
    (6)
    Last edited by Joven; 07-13-2018 at 08:31 PM.


    Gamers don't die, we just go AFK

  9. #179
    Player
    Nandina's Avatar
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    Jul 2014
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    Ul'Dah
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    72
    Character
    Nandina Rose
    World
    Jenova
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 64
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsumdere View Post
    1. You did not quote from the original post I put the screenshot in.

    2. It was direct proof there is black features in this game (which was an argument of yours, don't say it wasn't), nothing to do with skintone.

    3. Lol. You directly edited Bourne_Endevor's quote from "non-white" to "non-people".

    You are troll and/or purposefully inflammatory. Goodbye.


    How am I trolling again? I knew someone would attempt to say that, which is why I screenshot it.
    (6)

  10. #180
    Player
    Awha's Avatar
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    Jul 2017
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    568
    Character
    Tin Can
    World
    Zalera
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 60
    Have not read the thread, but the true issue with the character creator is the lack of body hair.
    (5)

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