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  1. #11
    Player
    HyoMinPark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    The Lavender Beds’ God-Tier Medium
    Posts
    3,370
    Character
    Hyomin Park
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Bard Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Naryoril View Post
    I know it's because you want to maximize DPS, but there is quite some irony in a tank who isn't using tank stance or his enmity combo complaining about others not using their enmity tools...
    If other jobs are also managing enmity, there is no need for either barring gear discrepancy. Enmity management is a group thing, not just a tank thing. But if OP is fairly undergeared compared to their DPS in their party, they're going to have to use more aggro combos or switch on Grit for a little bit.
    (6)

    Bard | Red Mage | Triple-Threat Healer

    Feel free to add me on Discord if you want a friend or just someone to talk to: Hyomin Park#0055
    I will reply to messages whenever I am not busy studying, sleeping, or raiding. ^^ If I do not respond quickly, then I’m sorry, but I am quite busy sometimes!

    Signature was made using: http://ff14card.tank.jp ; Credits to the creator!

  2. #12
    Player
    Lilyth's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    172
    Character
    Lilyth Chan
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Black Mage Lv 70
    All the DPS in the game have more than enough enmity control tools to ensure that all tanks can stay in their DPS stance the whole fight. Easily.

    Quote Originally Posted by Naryoril View Post
    I know it's because you want to maximize DPS, but there is quite some irony in a tank who isn't using tank stance or his enmity combo complaining about others not using their enmity tools...
    I'm sorry but the only irony here is how oblivious a DPS must be to even believe in such thing.

    The DPS roles lose literally *nothing* in order to use their enmity tools. They are all instant cast OGCDs with zero impact in their rotation. Some DPS can even directly dump their aggro if the situation requires it (Lucid Dreaming, Elusive Jump,... etc).

    Meanwhile, Tanks have to sacrifice not only around ~20% of their damage just to enter Tank Stance (and even a whole GCD if you are not a WAR), but their enmity combo is just terrible dps-wise, generate less gauge/resources, and can also mess up their entire rotation.

    If you don't use your aggro tools to help with enmity, you have absolutely no right to complain about stealing aggro and getting killed, period.

    The only real job that should be causing enmity issues to the Tanks and requiring extra enmity care is the WHM. Lucid Dreaming is simply not enough to mitigate their huge healing output in some fights.
    (3)

  3. #13
    Player
    HyoMinPark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    The Lavender Beds’ God-Tier Medium
    Posts
    3,370
    Character
    Hyomin Park
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Bard Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Lilyth View Post
    The DPS roles lose literally *nothing* in order to use their enmity tools. They are all instant cast OGCDs with zero impact in their rotation. Some DPS can even directly dump their aggro if the situation requires it (Lucid Dreaming, Elusive Jump,... etc).
    While I agree with you, I do want to point out that BRD/MCH do technically lose a support/offensive tool by having to use Tactician or Refresh for enmity control. I just disagree with the idea of tying enmity management to skills that are supposed to be used for party support (or offensively for the party’s damage, like Refresh is used at higher levels of play). Rather, BRD/MCH should either have Diversion or something put on Repelling Shot/Blank Shot to make them not hotbar trash.

    If you don't use your aggro tools to help with enmity, you have absolutely no right to complain about stealing aggro and getting killed, period.
    Basically this.
    (0)

    Bard | Red Mage | Triple-Threat Healer

    Feel free to add me on Discord if you want a friend or just someone to talk to: Hyomin Park#0055
    I will reply to messages whenever I am not busy studying, sleeping, or raiding. ^^ If I do not respond quickly, then I’m sorry, but I am quite busy sometimes!

    Signature was made using: http://ff14card.tank.jp ; Credits to the creator!

  4. #14
    Player
    Derio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Posts
    1,710
    Character
    Derio Uzumaki
    World
    Famfrit
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 70
    Depends really. Sometimes if the gear difference is too great the enmity reduction tools sometimes wont be enough and the tank will either need to be in tank stance. However RDM and BLM have enough tools. Often if you see them take enmity from you they are not using their tools.
    (0)

  5. #15
    Player
    ArianeEwah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    134
    Character
    Ari Dyones
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by HyoMinPark View Post
    While I agree with you, I do want to point out that BRD/MCH do technically lose a support/offensive tool by having to use Tactician or Refresh for enmity control. I just disagree with the idea of tying enmity management to skills that are supposed to be used for party support (or offensively for the party’s damage, like Refresh is used at higher levels of play). Rather, BRD/MCH should either have Diversion or something put on Repelling Shot/Blank Shot to make them not hotbar trash.
    The funny thing is BRD used to be the job/class to learn "Diversion" aka Quelling Strikes, back in 3.x. Without leveling BRD (to Lv. 34) other classes and jobs had no access to enmity reducing tools. Now it's completely different.

    Diversion now being a role skill and available to any DPS class/job except BRD/ARC/MCH is still beyond me.

    I still remember our BRD ripping aggro off of me while "pulling" in O6s, once he started getting procs like crazy. (And we had no NIN!)

    b@Topic: In full parties, OT should (voke-)shirk MT on CD except there is a swap mechanic coming in the next 2 minutes. Any DPS job should use Diversion/Lucid Dreaming/Refresh etc. There is no reason not to. And don't let a DRG tell you he doesn't have any slots left, and he would need Invigorate (based on a true story!).
    (0)

  6. #16
    Player
    HyoMinPark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    The Lavender Beds’ God-Tier Medium
    Posts
    3,370
    Character
    Hyomin Park
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Bard Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by ArianeEwah View Post
    The funny thing is BRD used to be the job/class to learn "Diversion" aka Quelling Strikes, back in 3.x. Without leveling BRD (to Lv. 34) other classes and jobs had no access to enmity reducing tools. Now it's completely different.

    Diversion now being a role skill and available to any DPS class/job except BRD/ARC/MCH is still beyond me.

    I still remember our BRD ripping aggro off of me while "pulling" in O6s, once he started getting procs like crazy. (And we had no NIN!)
    Diversion basically uses Quelling Strikes’ animation, and it’s original 4.0 version was Quelling Strikes lol. Now it’s Quelling Strikes on steroids.

    b@Topic: In full parties, OT should (voke-)shirk MT on CD except there is a swap mechanic coming in the next 2 minutes. Any DPS job should use Diversion/Lucid Dreaming/Refresh etc. There is no reason not to. And don't let a DRG tell you he doesn't have any slots left, and he would need Invigorate (based on a true story!).
    DRG shouldn’t even need Diversion—they have a free aggro dump every 30 seconds lol. They have no excuse for aggro problems lol.
    (0)

    Bard | Red Mage | Triple-Threat Healer

    Feel free to add me on Discord if you want a friend or just someone to talk to: Hyomin Park#0055
    I will reply to messages whenever I am not busy studying, sleeping, or raiding. ^^ If I do not respond quickly, then I’m sorry, but I am quite busy sometimes!

    Signature was made using: http://ff14card.tank.jp ; Credits to the creator!

  7. #17
    Player
    ManuelBravo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Milpitas , CA
    Posts
    2,089
    Character
    Manuel Bravo
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Dragoon Lv 70

    Part of knowing your job is managing your enmity on any role

    I hate to say it, however someone has to. Knowing your job is more than just gearing and using CD. There is a reason why there are support jobs that can transfer or diminish enmity generation either by actions or role traits. As a tank it's rare that I have enmity issues at all if anything I normally take enmity without really trying. Gear is only part of it. As a tank you can request people's assistance or even ask for tips. As long as your doing your best most will try to help. Sure you will be open to be criticized for it, however there is no shame in learning. Keep in mind that the majority of players are casual and most hardcore types are less likely to listen.
    (2)

  8. #18
    Player
    BorisDaBlade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    457
    Character
    Boris Taglia
    World
    Lamia
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 70
    It’s DF. Not static, savage raid, fflogs type stuff. Do an extra aggro combo and move on. If my blm pulls aggro, you’re not doing enough damage in dps stance anyway.

    Diversion pre pull is no problem. Using Lucid because you wanna dps messes with my mana for 3 rotations.
    (4)

  9. #19
    Player
    ArianeEwah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    134
    Character
    Ari Dyones
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by HyoMinPark View Post
    DRG shouldn’t even need Diversion—they have a free aggro dump every 30 seconds lol. They have no excuse for aggro problems lol.
    That's half true.

    Sure, DRG has Elusive Jump to half their current enmity, but they don't and shouldn't use it in their opener. They also have one of the highest burst in the game, so Diversion is recommended there.

    Not really necessary when MT has high(er) gear and/or there is a NIN with Shadewalker, though.

    edit: Elusive Jump unfortunately doesn't allow to double weave and is a positioning tool. It should not be used if it's not an emergency.
    (0)
    Last edited by ArianeEwah; 07-12-2018 at 11:28 PM.

  10. #20
    Player
    HyoMinPark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    The Lavender Beds’ God-Tier Medium
    Posts
    3,370
    Character
    Hyomin Park
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Bard Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by ArianeEwah View Post
    That's half true.

    Sure, DRG has Elusive Jump to half their current enmity, but they don't and shouldn't use it in their opener. They also have one of the highest burst in the game, so Diversion is recommended there.
    You don’t need either in your opener on DRG. BRD and MNK burst for more than DRG does in terms of opening burst.
    (0)

    Bard | Red Mage | Triple-Threat Healer

    Feel free to add me on Discord if you want a friend or just someone to talk to: Hyomin Park#0055
    I will reply to messages whenever I am not busy studying, sleeping, or raiding. ^^ If I do not respond quickly, then I’m sorry, but I am quite busy sometimes!

    Signature was made using: http://ff14card.tank.jp ; Credits to the creator!

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