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  1. #51
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    Chrono_Rising's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nezerius View Post
    I don't get why people are so against tanks getting a proper upgrade path for almost half of their gear, when this issue doesn't exist for the other roles.
    People sell those crafted accessories, and especially the pentamelded ones, for quite a bit of Gil. Crafters and the economy get a nice boost on the back of tanks.
    (0)

  2. #52
    Player
    Kabooa's Avatar
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    Jace Ossura
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    Gilgamesh
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising View Post
    People sell those crafted accessories, and especially the pentamelded ones, for quite a bit of Gil. Crafters and the economy get a nice boost on the back of tanks.
    Buddy, -everyone- buys them.

    You're just the only lot that keeps them.
    (1)

  3. #53
    Player
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    Paladin Lv 70
    Looking at my local market board history for the past 24 hours:
    30 sales of tank accessories (of any type).
    8 sales of healing accessories.
    10 dps accessories.

    1/4th of the population is buying 60% of the crafted accessories in the past 24 hours. Not exactly a coincidence. I could go back up to a week based on time stamps. The situation does not get better.

    Second, with the exception of my main class I don't even craft my own accessories, I just gear them from tomes and the extra savage books since with the exception of my tanks, that gear is better. Now, if your point is day 1 raiders, then yes, for their main class it is likely they will be getting crafted gear, but its optional as you have stated yourself. Even then it is then optional to pentameld that gear, as again it is optional and better gear is coming. Tanks have no reason to not be pressured by groups to spend gil and then spend more to pentameld as this is the best option available to you.
    (1)
    Last edited by Chrono_Rising; 07-13-2018 at 05:28 AM.

  4. #54
    Player
    Nezerius's Avatar
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    Rintha Elenah
    World
    Balmung
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    Lancer Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising View Post
    People sell those crafted accessories, and especially the pentamelded ones, for quite a bit of Gil. Crafters and the economy get a nice boost on the back of tanks.
    You really think it's fair for tanks to have half of their gear progression be broken, just so you and other crafters can make a bit more gil?
    I think it isn't, and I say that as both a tank and a crafter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising View Post
    Looking at my local market board history for the past 24 hours:
    30 sales of tank accessories (of any type).
    8 sales of healing accessories.
    10 dps accessories.

    1/4th of the population is buying 60% of the crafted accessories in the past 24 hours. Not exactly a coincidence. I could go back up to a week based on time stamps. The situation does not get better.
    Of course fending accessories have the highest amount of sales, because pentamelding them allows players to keep them for the entire Sigmascape tier, as they won't have to upgrade them until the next set of crafted accessories in 4.4.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising
    Second, with the exception of my main class I don't even craft my own accessories, I just gear them from tomes and the extra savage books since with the exception of my tanks, that gear is better. Now, if your point is day 1 raiders, then yes, for their main class it is likely they will be getting crafted gear, but its optional as you have stated yourself.
    Just because it's optional, doesn't mean it should be better than gear that's 20 item levels higher.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising
    Even then it is then optional to pentameld that gear, as again it is optional and better gear is coming.
    You're right, better gear is coming, since 4.4 is likely adding the next set of crafting accessories.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising
    Tanks have no reason to not be pressured by groups to spend gil and then spend more to pentameld as this is the best option available to you.
    This is kind of a conflicting statement. You first call the crafted gear optional, and then you're saying that it's okay for groups to pressure tanks into spending gil to get crafted accessories?
    Did you mean "Tanks have no reason to be pressured by groups"?

    At this point, I think SE should just not add a new set of crafted accessories in 4.4, if they don't intend to fix the issue before 5.0.
    (0)

  5. #55
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    Kabooa's Avatar
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    That's not what he meant by any of that at all.
    (4)

  6. #56
    Player
    Chrono_Rising's Avatar
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    Chrono Rising
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    Gilgamesh
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    Paladin Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Nezerius View Post
    You really think it's fair for tanks to have half of their gear progression be broken, just so you and other crafters can make a bit more gil?
    I think it isn't, and I say that as both a tank and a crafter.
    No, I don’t think this. The problem here, and you will notice this is a theme through your entire post, is reading my posts without taking into consideration the larger conversation at play. Here is the sequence:

    Quote Originally Posted by Nezerius View Post
    I don't get why people are so against tanks getting a proper upgrade path for almost half of their gear, when this issue doesn't exist for the other roles.
    To which I respond:

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising View Post
    People sell those crafted accessories, and especially the pentamelded ones, for quite a bit of Gil. Crafters and the economy get a nice boost on the back of tanks.
    My answer to your point of why people would be against this, because they want to make money and BiS pieces make for an easy sale. It may be difficult to read my distaste for such a practice but if you read the bolded portion with some sarcasm you might understand my feeling on this subject.

    How do I feel on this exactly? Here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising View Post
    The solution isn't even complicated. Crafted accessories are only marginally, less than a percent, better than accessories 20 ilvls above them. Upgrading to the 20 ilvl higher accessories gets you 18 more vit, 1 additional strength, and 18 more secondary stats, and that is just shy of being on par with crafted accessories.

    If the strength on tank accessories increased by half of our vit stat increases (gaining 4 strength per 10 ilvls instead of 1 per 10 ilvls) we would have gear progression, tank dps wouldn't fly off the handle, and would require no changes to the damage formula or the way weakness is calculated. The solution is extremely simple and should raise questions as to why it hasn't been fixed.
    Next:

    Quote Originally Posted by Nezerius View Post

    Of course fending accessories have the highest amount of sales, because pentamelding them allows players to keep them for the entire Sigmascape tier, as they won't have to upgrade them until the next set of crafted accessories in 4.4.

    Just because it's optional, doesn't mean it should be better than gear that's 20 item levels higher.
    My pointing out the sales history of accessories on my server to Kabooa is to contradict their statement that everyone is buying crafted sets. Yes, some people may want them, but if the driver is having good gear then why not go for even better gear? This is possible on every class, except tanks. Only one role having crafted BiS creates an imbalance on that role, and it is a consistent problem with each new crafted set.

    To restate my opinion, again, I disagree with this practice. But you are taking a small portion of my post and not considering what it addressing, and this is causing you to reach the wrong conclusion about what I am saying again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nezerius View Post

    You're right, better gear is coming, since 4.4 is likely adding the next set of crafting accessories.
    Again, missed point. Crafted is optional for dps and healers because they can get better gear within the same patch as the crafted gear. The point, and more on this with the next part, is that this puts pressure on tanks because while “optional” its also BiS, the BiS status often translates to “expected” rather than optional. Again, this is not in a postive tone on my end.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nezerius View Post
    This is kind of a conflicting statement. You first call the crafted gear optional, and then you're saying that it's okay for groups to pressure tanks into spending gil to get crafted accessories?
    Did you mean "Tanks have no reason to be pressured by groups"?

    At this point, I think SE should just not add a new set of crafted accessories in 4.4, if they don't intend to fix the issue before 5.0.
    Again, you are reading my post out of context of the larger conversation in which it is happening and draw the wrong conclusion from my post. Some have made the argument that this gear is optional and so not necessary for tanks to have it. My point is that while that may be true on roles whose BiS are not crafted options, many groups will pressure their tanks for the large investment of time and/or resources for pentamelded accessories because they are BiS. I've been in groups which have specifically told tanks if you don't have crafted accessories you are being lazy and not forfilling your role to the group. The pressure is real from some players who way overvalue these pieces. This is, again, a post to refute the idea that these “optional” crafted accessories don’t create an imbalance on one role in the game.
    (2)
    Last edited by Chrono_Rising; 07-13-2018 at 12:10 PM.

  7. #57
    Player
    Nezerius's Avatar
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    Rintha Elenah
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    Balmung
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    Lancer Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising View Post
    No, I don’t think this. The problem here, and you will notice this is a theme through your entire post, is reading my posts without taking into consideration the larger conversation at play. Here is the sequence:



    To which I respond:



    My answer to your point of why people would be against this, because they want to make money and BiS pieces make for an easy sale. It may be difficult to read my distaste for such a practice but if you read the bolded portion with some sarcasm you might understand my feeling on this subject.

    How do I feel on this exactly? Here:
    Sarcasm doesn't translate well over text, so there was no way for me to determine that you found said practice to be distasteful. My misunderstanding could've been avoided if you had been clear on the subject.
    Also, that post is almost a week old, so it had already slipped my mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising
    To restate my opinion, again, I disagree with this practice. But you are taking a small portion of my post and not considering what it addressing, and this is causing you to reach the wrong conclusion about what I am saying again.
    I only reached the wrong conclusion because you weren't clear on your opinion on the matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising
    Again, missed point. Crafted is optional for dps and healers because they can get better gear within the same patch as the crafted gear. The point, and more on this with the next part, is that this puts pressure on tanks because while “optional” its also BiS, the BiS status often translates to “expected” rather than optional. Again, this is not in a postive tone on my end.
    I only missed the point because you didn't specify whether you were just talking about dps/healers, or if you were talking about all roles. That's the reason why I asked if you meant something else, since the optional part seemed to conflict with tanks getting pressured part.

    If you had specified that it was optional for dps/healers, then it'd have been much more clear for me.
    (0)

  8. #58
    Player
    Chrono_Rising's Avatar
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    Chrono Rising
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    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Nezerius View Post
    Sarcasm doesn't translate well over text, so there was no way for me to determine that you found said practice to be distasteful. My misunderstanding could've been avoided if you had been clear on the subject.
    Also, that post is almost a week old, so it had already slipped my mind.
    I told you to read this with sarcasm because you don't know my opinion on this subject (as you also indicated), but Kabooa does because the two of us have had similar back and forth posts the last time this issue was in vogue. Prior thread: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-Strength-Gain

    The sarcasm is unnecessary to the meaning and connotation of what I wrote, simply reading that we are “boosting the economy on the backs of tanks” is itself is a negative criticism of the practice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising View Post
    Now, if your point is day 1 raiders, then yes, for their main class it is likely they will be getting crafted gear, but its optional as you have stated yourself. Even then it is then optional to pentameld that gear, as again it is optional and better gear is coming. Tanks have no reason to not be pressured by groups to spend gil and then spend more to pentameld as this is the best option available to you.
    This segment, and the entire post is written in the context set in the post immediately prior to it:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kabooa View Post
    Buddy, -everyone- buys them.

    You're just the only lot that keeps them.
    So my position on the optional nature is in the context of everyone because that is the context set within the larger conversation at that moment. However, I am singling out one group in the last sentence, tanks, which undergoes pressure because of the BiS nature of crafted. Pressure does not mean it isn’t optional. I have multiple options and multiple pressures which help me make my decisions, but at no time does pressure mean I have no options. For example: I would like to play video games, but I also enjoy seeing friends in real life, I feel pressure in one direction and both are still optional. More to the point, for as many groups which lock out ilvl 363 BiS tanks, there are also groups who write “message me if you are an ilvl 363 tank”.

    There are multiple issues with crafted accessories and crafted gear being BiS.

    People who far overestimate the dps gain of crafted and demand tanks get crafted accessories.
    People who don’t realize crafted is BiS for tanks and lock them out of pf for not being 370.
    People who lock their pf but add messages to tanks to message them creates more confusion.
    People taking advantage of the tank accessory situation to sell more.
    Tank drops not being valuable gear upgrades from savage and feeling like wasted spots.

    The BiS nature is just one aspect, and a design choice which, personally, I find unpleasant. Especially since it could have been avoided by making the strength gains per piece per 10 ilvls just a smidge higher (like 3 or 4 strength gained a piece per 10 ilvls over 1 and sometimes none).
    (2)
    Last edited by Chrono_Rising; 07-13-2018 at 09:49 PM.

  9. #59
    Player
    Nezerius's Avatar
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    Rintha Elenah
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    Balmung
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    Lancer Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising View Post
    The sarcasm is unnecessary to the meaning and connotation of what I wrote, simply reading that we are “boosting the economy on the backs of tanks” is itself is a negative criticism of the practice.
    Without beforehand knowledge of your opinion, the meaning of "boosting the economy on the backs of tanks" wouldn't necessarily be negative right away. At least that's what I could find on its meaning, as English isn't my primary language.



    Quote Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising
    This segment, and the entire post is written in the context set in the post immediately prior to it:
    Since you hadn't quoted Kabooa's post, I assumed the context of your post took more than just the previous post in mind.



    Quote Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising
    So my position on the optional nature is in the context of everyone because that is the context set within the larger conversation at that moment. However, I am singling out one group in the last sentence, tanks, which undergoes pressure because of the BiS nature of crafted. Pressure does not mean it isn’t optional. I have multiple options and multiple pressures which help me make my decisions, but at no time does pressure mean I have no options. For example: I would like to play video games, but I also enjoy seeing friends in real life, I feel pressure in one direction and both are still optional. More to the point, for as many groups which lock out ilvl 363 BiS tanks, there are also groups who write “message me if you are an ilvl 363 tank”.

    There are multiple issues with crafted accessories and crafted gear being BiS.

    People who far overestimate the dps gain of crafted and demand tanks get crafted accessories.
    People who don’t realize crafted is BiS for tanks and lock them out of pf for not being 370.
    People who lock their pf but add messages to tanks to message them creates more confusion.
    People taking advantage of the tank accessory situation to sell more.
    Tank drops not being valuable gear upgrades from savage and feeling like wasted spots.

    The BiS nature is just one aspect, and a design choice which, personally, I find unpleasant. Especially since it could have been avoided by making the strength gains per piece per 10 ilvls just a smidge higher (like 3 or 4 strength gained a piece per 10 ilvls over 1 and sometimes none).
    Given enough pressure, some things might end up not being optional at all. Fortunately, that's not the case with fending accessories right now, as (like you've said) the dps increase is minimal.
    That said, a minimal dps increase is still a dps increase, so seeing a savage fending accessory drop only makes me go "Meh, I've already got better" before hitting the pass button. Something that really shouldn't be the case when an item is 20 iLvls higher than the one I'm wearing, and isn't the case for the majority of the other jobs.

    The context/sarcasm/meaning of things isn't really going anywhere though, since we both seem to want the same thing, a better upgrade path for tanking accessories without the need to shake things up completely.
    (0)

  10. #60
    Player
    Kabooa's Avatar
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    Jace Ossura
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    Gilgamesh
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising View Post
    The BiS nature is just one aspect, and a design choice which, personally, I find unpleasant. Especially since it could have been avoided by making the strength gains per piece per 10 ilvls just a smidge higher (like 3 or 4 strength gained a piece per 10 ilvls over 1 and sometimes none).
    You also avoid it by simply making raid accessories come with the Strength Materia already in the stat budget.

    This brings the stat deficit down to 5 strength vs something like 80 substat points, which basically means you're paying for week 1 progression premiums, just like every other Job.
    (0)

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